 And not only did he have a relationship with the government, but he had a ball in the FBI. In this world, you look out for number one. If you have any people, take that ball to the grave. These guys are on the street, so they're involved in hustling. Welcome back to the Original Gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucciolato with my co-host, Scott Bernstein. Hey now. And our producer, Signore Roberto Boshane. Hey now. We're super excited to have Michael Francis as our guest today. He is a true original gangster. He was born into mafia royalty. And then he ended up becoming one of the most prolific earners in the history of Cosa Nostra. Not only one of the biggest earners within the Colombo family, but one of the biggest earners in all of the five families. It's really remarkable and we'll talk to him about that. What I'm most interested about Mr. Francis, and we're going to get him here and be able to pick his brain, but he really changed the whole paradigm. I mean, he took the mob in New York from the streets into the boardroom and taught really the rest of the five families how to be white collar criminals. And that was such a big part of the evolution of the mob today. And this was something that Michael and his crew were doing back in the 70s and 80s. Yeah, that's definitely something we want to ask him about. And eventually the state did come after him. He did some time in prison a lot of time. And when he came out, there's one of the few individuals I'm aware of who actually walked away from the life and lived to tell about it. And he has since reinvented himself. And now he's a well-known author, television producer, film producer, motivational speaker, minister, among other things. He's really led a remarkable life. So we're really happy to have Michael on with us. Welcome, Michael, to the Original Gangsters podcast. Thank you, guys. Good to be here. Thank you, Michael. So if we could talk a little bit about, you know, your early history, you had this interesting situation where sort of like Michael Corleone in The Gone Father, you were not initially supposed to be part of the family business. You were attending college, studying pre-medicine, I believe. And just to fill the audience in real quick, Michael's dad, John Sonny Francis, one of the most legendary mob figures in the history of America and the history of New York. He's still alive. He's 102 years old. And, you know, he is a true legends legend in the world of organized crime. So Michael grew up as mob royalty, as Jimmy mentioned in the intro. Yeah, so his father was and is a big deal. So unpack that for us, Michael, how you were really, you were initially not on that track. And then circumstances changed and then you did find yourself in the life. Yeah, that's correct. I mean, my dad didn't want this life of me initially. He wanted me out of it, actually. He wanted me to go to school. You know, I have a profession, a career. He wanted me to be a doctor. And I was also an athlete in school. He was very supportive of that. And, you know, I was on that road. I was actually a pre-med student in Hofstra University in New York. And my dad got in some very serious trouble. He was indicted, you know, over the years several times, three times in the state of New York, went to trial, was acquitted on some very serious charges. But then he was indicted in federal court in 1966 for masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies. He was convicted, sentenced to 50 years in prison. And in 1970, he went off to do his time and, you know, just to set it up. I love my dad. He was my hero growing up. He was my idol, you know, like I said, very supportive of me. So when he drew that sentence and went in, he was 50 when he went in. He had 50 on top of that. I figured, you know, he was going to die in prison. So, you know, I felt responsible in a way to try to help him out. And around that time, Joe Colombo had started the Italian-American Civil Rights League and obviously we were very close because my dad was his underboss. And he kind of took me under his wing. I would meet a lot of my dad's friends. We'd talk about my father's situation because, guys, I will tell you this. You know, we'll get into that later. I went to jail for a crime that I was guilty of. I played guilty. I did my time. Big racketeering case. My father did obviously a lot of, you know, bad things in his life. That's part of the life. We both did. But that particular case that he was convicted on, my dad was framed on. He was no bank robber. It was a bad case. I'll take that to my grave. And I knew that and I wanted to help him out. And it was because of that that he proposed me for membership in the life when I was 21 years old. He just thought that was a better way for me to help him get out of prison and not die in there. So, that's how the thing turned around for me. And you got made on Halloween night, is that correct? Yeah, it was Halloween night in 1975. Can you kind of just take us through that? Maybe a one or two minutes synopsis of what that ceremony was like? Yeah, it was, you know, it was late at night. Obviously, when you conduct a ceremony like that, you've got to make sure there's no surveillance and, you know, it's done its secret. So that's taken very seriously and precautionary steps are taken. And it was actually in, Anthony Colombo had a catering hall in Brooklyn. It was called El Dorro at the time. And that's where the ritual ceremony was held. There were six of us that night that were recruits for, you know, a couple years. We had to prove ourselves worthy. And, you know, I'll set it up. We went in, it was late at night. It was around midnight. And the room was dimly lit. They wanted you to understand the seriousness of what you were getting involved in. And the boss was seated at the head of like a horseshoe configuration. Underboss, consul Yerry to his left and right, and all the captains were alongside of them. We had about 15 in our family at that time. Who was the boss at that time? Was that junior, Perceco? Well, Perceco was the boss, but he was in prison. So Tom DeBello was the acting boss at the time. He conducted that ceremony for me. And, you know, I walked down the house, stood in front of the boss, held out my hand. He took a knife, got my fingers and blood dropped down the floor. This is a blood oath. I cupped my hands. He took a picture of a saint, a Catholic altar card, put it on my hands and lit it aflame. It didn't hurt. It burned quickly. It was merely symbolic. And he said, tonight, Michael Francis, you are born again into a new life. Into La Cosa Nostra. Violate what you know about this life. Betray your brothers and you will die. And burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands. Do you accept? And I said, yes, I do. That's how it started for me. The other five guys went in. They all took the oath. And you come into the life. You come in as a soldier. And that's when I was ready to start my time in that life. How quickly did you ascend up the ladder? And when were you promoted to captain status? Well, you know, when I got into the life, I think you fellas probably know that, but they had an expression that the books had been closed since the early 50s, meaning they weren't bringing any new guys into the family. And that was all five families that agreed to that. It was more of a security reason than anything else. But then in the early 70s, they opened the books and that's when they started making guys again and the families were building up. So when I came in, I was one of the younger guys. There was guys that had waited 20 and 30 years to be made. So I was one of the younger guys. But, you know, I was fortunate. I knew how to use that life to benefit me in business. I was very aggressive. I worked 24-7 practically. And I brought some new things into the family because I had kind of a head to business and add that into some of the benefits that you get being part of that life. And I was really able to capitalize on that and make the most of it. You know, it took me five years before Perceco elevated me to the position of captain of Coppershame and that was in 1980. And there's no ceremony for that. I mean, buses are a captain. That's it. The captain appointed me a couple of guys in my crew and I also had my own crew, you know, all my associates that weren't made but they were my guys. And we just moved on from there. And before you were officially inducted, you had some experience not only from just being around your father, but weren't you present at the assassination of Joe Colombo? Yeah, I was there. You know, that was the Italian American Civil Rights League rally. It was actually a second big rally that we had in Columbus Circle. I think it was in 1971. And we had upwards of 30,000 people there. It was a big event. And Joey had a big stage set up right around the statue of Columbus in the middle of the circle. And I had gone up on the stage. He called me because he wanted me to give out some brochures that we had by Lincoln Center there, around 61st Street. So he had handed them to me. And, you know, I'll never forget because I was a little bit disillusioned because I thought that enough wasn't being done to help my dad at that time. And I really got involved in the league to try to help my father because, you know, we were picking in the FBI and doing all that stuff. And he turned to me and he said, Michael, don't worry. This league is going to help your father out big time. And I was excited by that. I said, wow, this is great. And I walked away from him. I was heading to the steps to go down the stage when the shots rang out. Obviously, we know what happened from there. He was shot. You know, eventually he died from the wounds. But it was a day I'll never forget. Certainly my first major experience with something like that in that life. Can you describe Joe Colombo as a boss? What were, you know, kind of his best features, his worst features? What was the, what did the rank and file think of him? Well, you know, there was mixed emotions or mixed reactions, I should say, as a result of his involvement in the league and the way he, you know, came out so publicly with the fact that, you know, there was no mafia and he wasn't the boss and he was a legitimate guy. And he was doing all sorts of television shows. And, you know, it was found upon. I gotta be honest with you. There was a lot of negative talk about it, especially among the men. I mean, I remember being on the picket line and guys really complaining that he had us on picket lines and the FBI was taking pictures and guys were going to get in trouble over it. So there was a lot of dissension as a result of that. Prior to that, you know, again, a lot of people thought that maybe he wasn't the guy deserving of that position. I think, you know, how he got it, he did a favor for Colo Gambino basically and they supported him and taken over the family. You know, it's a little more to what we're not taking it to, but... There had been a big war just left the audience on. There had been a giant mob war in the Colombo family, which at the time was called the Profacci family in the 60s and kind of at the end of the war, tell me if I'm telling the story correctly. At the end of the war, Colombo was like one of the last men standing and was able to kind of assume power, but he wasn't one of the main combatants. Is that correct? Yeah, I don't want to say he was the last man standing. I don't think that's accurate, but, you know, politically, he made the right moves and a lot of his life is politics and he got the right support from Colo and the guys that meant something and he was able to take over the family. Look, I'll be honest with you, I should have had that position. Yeah, we've heard that. Yeah, a lot of people had thought that, but he didn't and, you know, once you're the boss, you're the boss. People were respected. I think a lot of people that study the world like we do, there's been a lot of... I don't want to say Monday morning quarterback, you might be the wrong term, but kind of thinking like, if what happened with your father hadn't have happened, if he hadn't got jammed up in the bank robbery conspiracy and he had been allowed to ascend to the boss's chair, let's say in the late 60s, early 70s, what would the landscape of the entire New York Underworld be like, but specifically the combos who have been somewhat of a dysfunctional group on and off. They had the kind of the two wars in the 60s and early 70s and there was another giant war that erupted in the 1990s. Kind of what would you... What's your take if things would have gone differently and Sonny would have become boss? The family have looked now 40 years later, 50 years later, and how would the New York Underworld look? How would it be different? Let me say this. I think my... And I'm not saying this because I'm his son. Look, I'm not a kid anymore and I've been through a lot. My dad and I have been through a lot together, but I will say that my father had very, very capable leadership qualities. He was well liked by not only people in our family, but in the other families. He was well respected because my dad was a doer. He did what he had to do. He was a pretty even-handed guy. He knew how to... Politically, he knew how to navigate that life. So he had all the qualities. And I think he would have been a very good boss and I think he would have gotten a lot of respect from the other families. And our family would have done well under him. No doubt about it. But, you know... What have happened in the 90s? Happened if Sonny was in charge? I mean, you had a lot of bodies dropping in the early 90s because of that war and it was really bad public relations for the Borgata. I don't think we would have had the war. I don't think my father would have been challenged. I really don't. And I just see how he dealt with people. And I think he would have been able to keep peace among the... Look, our family was a warring family. I think you know that. We always had a lot of stuff going on, you know? And I think my father would have been able to keep that at bay. I really do. Now, you know, I'm not a prophet. I don't know for sure. But I just think he commanded that type of respect to have really let that family grow. And, you know, he wasn't a greedy guy. Look, my father was known as being tight. You know, he liked to term other people's money. He didn't like to dip into his pocket to go into business and all of that. But neither was he the guy that was taking from you. So he let people learn. Would you agree with the categorization of your father that he was that rare breed of someone that was beloved, respected, and feared? And when you have that trifecta in the underworld, you can really go far. Yes, I believe that. And I saw that. I really did. And again, you know, I didn't see that in many other guys. And I got around a lot because, you know, we'll probably get into that. But when I was in the gas business, you know, I made a lot of relationships as a result of that. So I met with a lot of high-end guys. You know, I know the deal. And my father was a rare guy. He stood out. He really did. So he was beloved. He certainly was feared because they knew that he, you know, he wasn't hesitant to do whatever he had to do. And he was known for that. So I think the family would have been much better off if he were in control. I really do. And if we can fast forward to, you know, your tenure. You mentioned the gas scheme, which I want to talk about. But before we do that, so our listeners understand, if you think about wise guys as someone maybe shaking down a pizzeria or, you know, running a crabs game or something, that was not Michael. Michael was at a whole different level of the game. I know that Ed McDonald, who was a U.S. attorney, says, has gone on record saying he thinks Michael was the most prolific earner in all of the five families, not just the Colombo family. So if you could talk about how you transition to the sort of thinking bigger than just, you know, shaking down a pizzeria place. And one example I can think of that I'm aware of was the shipping container scam that you were involved in, which I just, is brilliant. I mean, and I say that in a sort of perverse way. I'm not condoning what you did, but it just strikes me as really cutting edge for a wise guy to come up with that. But also when we watch movies like Wall Street and Wolfville Wall Street, you were the perfect age in the perfect era to make all that happen. Yeah, so if you could talk to us about that, Michael, thank you. Sure. You know, look, I'm going to be honest. I mean, my targets were never the guy on the street. You know, I didn't believe in extorting a shop owner or a family or anything else. I mean, the only street people that I thought had to answer to me and it was only right were bookmakers, because, you know, bookmakers, we just wouldn't allow them to operate unless they operated under our control. And for most of the time, that was a benefit to them, because remember, bookmakers, they give credit. They have to collect. And if they don't have power behind them, quite often they can't collect. And so it was advantage for them to be part of my system, so to speak. So if they needed money, I'd lend it to them and then we had collection issues. We made sure they collected their money. But other than that, you know, I didn't believe in extorting shop owners or going after families. I hated anything to do with drugs. We couldn't do anything with drugs anyhow. We got killed if we messed with drugs. And that was throughout all five families, even though some guys were doing it on a slide. We were not supposed to do it. So I didn't believe in any of that. My targets were always big. I always, if I can go take the government down, I'm ready. Let me hear the scheme. Let me create the scheme. I'm ready to go because you got to remember, I hated the government at that point. They framed my dad. I've seen him my whole life. You know, to me, they were harassing us our whole life. So it's like I'm getting even. You know, insurance companies point me in that direction. I'm ready to take them down if I could. At that time, I want to make this clip. You'll listen to this, not today, but back then. And the banks, you know, banks, the same thing. You know, so those are my main targets as far as if I was going to defraud anybody or take anybody down. You know, and I did it on all three. I'll be honest. But aside from that, you know, I had, really, I had a head for legitimate business. You know, I was into a lot of different things. I was into the film business. I was in general contracting. I owned a number of automobile dealerships. I had a big leasing company. You know, I was really into that. If somebody came to me with an idea, I was ready to think about it, expand on it, and try to make it work. And I just enjoyed it. You know, I was entrepreneurial in that regard. So, yeah, I mean, I, you know, if they came to me with scores and stuff like that, I really turned to death here. I wasn't really interested. Is there any way, Mike, just for the sake of the audience, can you do like a maybe a 90 second or two minute breakdown of the gas scam? Sure. We don't go too far into it, but just let people kind of know what it was. Pretty fascinating. There were two elements to the business. Number one, okay, when we first started out, the tax on every gallon of gasoline, both federal, state, local, was being collected at the gas station level. Number one, the gas station was responsible on a monthly basis to pay the tax, state, local, and federal. So we devised a scheme to defraud the government and prevent them from collecting the tax for between 10 months to a year. When they finally came down after the 10 months or a year, we would close that station down. The owner would be gone. We'd keep it vacant for a month, and then a new tenant would come in and lease it and start all over again. That's the first way. The government got wise to that, and they said, okay, we're not going to allow that anymore. You're going to have to be a wholesaler. You're going to have to be licensed. You're going to collect the tax, and you're going to be responsible to pay us on a quarterly basis. So when they did that, we had to devise a scheme. Number one, to be able to get licenses, to be able to have companies that could be licensed, and then figure out a way to hold the government off again so that we can collect the tax and not pay them for a certain amount of time until they came down on us. And then how did we get away with that, and how do we continue the operation? So when that happened, it actually got a lot better for us. And long story short, I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect tax on every gallon of gasoline. You guys were clearing tens of millions of dollars. At the height of... I ran that operation for about eight years. For close to eight years, I had the Russians involved as you know. And at the height of our operation, we were selling a half a billion gallons of gas a month. We were taking down 20, 30, 40 cents a gallon, depending upon the deal. So we were bringing in, at one point in time, five, eight, $10 million a week. And it was real money. And you know, if you have gas, you have money. It's the same thing, because gas converts to money in a second. So, you know, I had storage tanks that I bought from British Petroleum. We had a big terminal in Oceanside, Long Island. I had a number of gas stations. I still eat the least. They were owned or operated in some way. And we were selling to everybody that we could sell to. And you know, I couldn't get enough gas. We were buying them barges that were coming over from the Middle East. And we were buying them from all the majors. We bought them from Shell and Mobile and all the big companies. They were selling the gas to us. So it was one of a kind. I don't think that let's see, unless, you know, the new technology and stuff that's going on online that I don't really understand too much, but I don't think there'll be another operation like that for my former life. I really don't. And then there's another interesting situation here. You were talking about so much of the life as politics where initially you're earning so much money for the organization that you're one of the most popular guys, you know, around. But then that paranoia sets in and they start suspecting that you're not kicking up as much as maybe you should be. And didn't they call you into a sit-down one time? There was a pretty precarious situation if you could talk to us about that. Yeah, I mean, look, you know, there's nothing else in that life. It's one of the things that, you know, it's one of the veins of that life is that like anything else, you know, I was one of the younger guys and making a lot of money. I got a jet plane. I got a helicopter. I got a big crew. I got, you know, 10,000 square foot house in Long Island. So, you know, people start to get a little resentful. They start to get a little weary of you. It just happens. It's normal in that life. You don't even have to do anything wrong. It just comes with the territory. You know, I forget, I think it was Newsday, I'm not sure, came out with a story that I was becoming powerful enough to break off from the Columbus and stop my whole family. It may have, it could have been a fictionalized novel. There was no truth to it whatsoever. I don't know how they dreamed that up. But, you know, that starts to get in people's heads. And, you know, I think what happened with Percego, my former boss is that, you know, my father was coming out on parole. I got this big crew. I got the Russians that are close to me. And I was selling gas like crazy making millions. And I think they got a little, you know, concerned that maybe I would try to make a move, especially with my dad coming home. So, yeah, I got that call, you know, one of the horrors in that life is that you get called into a room. You may have made a mistake. You don't know your best friend walks you in. You don't walk out again. And I got that call one night. And I'll be honest with you guys, you know, I'm not ashamed to say it. I was scared, you know, walking into that room. I thought that could be it for me. And obviously I'm here, you know, and I got grilled with the business. I'll tell you what happened. You know, I started to get a little mad. And, you know, I'm sitting with the boss and, you know, they're questioning me. And my take on this was, listen, I created this scheme. I brought you more money than you've ever seen in your life. I'm taking all the risk. I got a guy around me. I don't know if he's going to stand up or not at the end. And nobody can get in trouble. But me, I protected everybody. And now you're questioning me like I did something wrong. So I started to get a little, you know, upset. And then I realized, hey, I'm talking to the boss. You know, it looks like I'm going to walk out of here. Don't let me make it worse for myself. So, you know, everything went okay. And, you know, got a bottle of wine and all that stuff afterwards. It was all right. But I think it was really designed to let me know that, hey, we're the boss, you know, you are who you are, but don't get out of control here. Just to put me in my place. And honestly, it actually had the reverse effect on me. So how so? What can you expand on that? Yeah, you know, don't get me wrong. Not that I was going to do anything to anybody as a result. But, you know, I said to myself, look, I got to worry about this. I'm doing all in my mind. I'm doing the right thing here. And I got to worry about people challenging me. I put it in the back of my mind and it kind of gave me a bitter taste. And, you know, I didn't meet my wife until two years later. But, you know, something else happened in that incident that I thought, well, I'm pretty sure not that I thought I know that my father actually betrayed me at that time also. And I just filed it away. But I can tell you this, guys, I really believe with all my heart that if that incident didn't happen, I probably would not have walked away from the life. I see what you're saying. It soured you on the experience. It did. Right. It really did. But that, if we can back up for a moment, you said something interesting is that, my understanding is that your father also had a sit-down and he didn't go to bat for you. Is that correct? He did not. You know, he took the high road and kind of threw me onto the bus. And I know it for a fact. I'm not dreaming it up, you know. And it was hurtful. And to be honest, I mean, it just, and it just said to me, you know, look, I mean, if this life can separate father and son, he and I never really had a disagreement ever. Do you think there was some jealousy there that your father's sitting behind bars and you're living a life where you're really kind of blowing up in his world, blowing up in a positive way? Do you think there was a little bit like, wow, he's exceeding me? Is Sonny saying that from behind bars? You know what, I honestly don't think so. But I will tell you this, you know, this is very personal, but I'll share it because it's not the first time I'm saying it. I don't say it often, but I think my mother had a lot to do with it. My mother was a strange woman in some ways, and I think that she might have, you know, put things in my dad's head because my dad wasn't like that. I mean, he was happy for me. You know, he knew, I mean, he wanted me to be a boss. He said, look, I'm going to support you. I'm going to elevate you to be the boss of the family and he knew if I was the boss, he was the boss. Same thing. And you know, he had the government to worry about because he was on parole for the rest of his life. So I don't think that that was my father. I honestly don't. I just, you got to understand my father. He just takes the high road all the time. And I think what he did that night, he didn't, you know, say bad things about me. What he said is this. Look, if my son is doing anything wrong, I don't know anything about it. If he's stealing money, if he's doing this, I'm on parole. He does everything. I don't do anything. So he didn't stand up for me. He could have said, hey, my son is 100%. He wouldn't do anything wrong and you guys don't have any business bringing him in here because my father had juice. He could have talked like that, but he didn't. And that was very, very hurtful to me. And it's something that I didn't forget. I actually gave him for it. I forget now, but at the time, and for a while after that, it was very troublesome. That's a fascinating situation. It does remind you of the Godfather and certain aspects of that. But we'd also like to ask you about some of the other heavyweights that you interacted with during your time there. And one of them is John Gotti. And I think there's an interesting story where you actually had to have a sit-down with him and his crew. And if you could talk to us about that and your impressions of Gotti at the time. Yeah, you know, and I've been asked about John many times. And I will say this, on a social level, you know, I like John a lot. I had respect for him. I respected the fact that, you know, he didn't make any bones about who he was. He was a mob guy. He loved the life. This is who we wanted to be. Anything else. I didn't always agree with some of the things that, you know, he did or that I heard he did. But, you know, he probably didn't agree with things I did. I mean, that's just part of the life. But, you know, on a business level, he was extremely difficult to deal with. I mean, he was a narcissistic guy. He could never lose an argument. And it was just hard to deal with somebody on that basis. So, you know, I did have a run-in with him over a big swap meet and it ended up, we couldn't get along on it. And I ended up asking him to buy me out, which he did. He bought me out. And he went on his way and I went on mine. You know, we still had a relationship after that. That's just what happens in that life. And then he did try to get involved in the gas business. He kind of backdoored it through little Vic, you know, who was one of our guys at the time. And I was... No, no, little Vic from my family. Oh, Vic Arena. Little Vic Arena. And I was successful in keeping him at bay on that. You know, I didn't lose any arguments in the gas business. So, you know, we had a little run-in there, but, you know, it worked out okay. So, again, you know, and then if people had, you know, do I think John Gotti was good for the family? And, you know, so many people have asked me, is he the reason the family went down? I mean, the lifestyle went down. The answer to that is no. It's not the reason. The reason that life went down was because, you know, the government started to use the recall indictment effectively. They started to use the bail reform act effectively. They started to use the sentencing reform act effectively. And they declared war on our life with all three of those weapons in the arsenal. And basically that's what happened. And you don't blame any one individual, you know. You don't blame John Gotti for the demise of the mob. That's ridiculous. What was your impression, though, of riding this meteoric rise in the underworld from, let's say, 85 through when he got locked up? It kind of dovetailed with the end of your run. Can you kind of talk about what you were thinking while it was going on, while John Gotti found himself on the cover of Time magazine and everyone, every time Dick and Harry around America knew who John Gotti was and a couple years before that, if you said John Gotti to them, they wouldn't have known that. Well, I knew that he was digging his own grave. It was only a matter of time before that's going to catch up, but the government is going to win. There's no question about it. Other people, obviously, were getting upset about it. I heard a lot of dissension at that time because of his high profile. Did he like it? I think to a degree he liked it. I mean, look, you're getting that kind of attention and, you know, in one way it gets in your head and it's in the other way if you're smart, you say, look, this is going to bury me eventually. And I think John knew that. You know, he didn't tell himself I'm going to continue to win. He knew it at some point. So, you know, but he was an ostentatious, outspoken, you know, bravacio, whatever the word is, bravado, bravado. Braggadocio. Braggadocio, yeah. He was that type of guy. So he was able to deal with it. Did you or your father have any thoughts? Did you ever talk about Paul Castellano? And how that all transpired in 85 when Gotti took power in the Gambino family by assassinating Castellano without the approval of the so-called commission. Yeah, I mean, people didn't like that. And, you know, I wasn't a fan of Paul, so to be honest with you, I had a run in with him early on. I wasn't even a made guy and I had a run in with him and I wasn't a fan of his. It really wasn't. As deep as Gotti was, just for the audience, as deep as Gotti was into the street as much of a street guy as Gotti was was as removed and detached from the street Castellano was by the 1980s and there was a real you know, battle lines being drawn between blue collar guys and white collar guys in that Gambino family that eventually, you know, ended up exploding into this mob, this very very high profile mob assassination that took place in the days before Christmas 1985. Right, but was Paul Castellano more of a feared guy than even Gotti was just in terms of heritage? You know, I don't think he was a feared guy. I think he was not a well-liked guy. Well, I know he wasn't a well-liked guy. I mean, people did not talk well of Paul under their breath and you know, when they felt that you know, safe not to he wasn't a guy that was well-liked and you know, look, you hear a lot of stuff comes out on the street you just hear it. You're around enough you know, you just hear it and I didn't hear a lot of good things about him you know, so when he went down, I think some of the, I know you know, the other bosses were upset with the way it went down but I don't know if they were necessarily upset with the fact that it did go down I mean, nobody was saying, oh, I really miss Paul. You know, that kind of a thing but you know, Gotti I think a lot of people thought he overstepped his authority in the way it was done but you know, the other thing is street life. I mean that's how things get done sometimes. You make you move. I think he knew he was going to be in trouble, John. I mean, Paul hated him. There's no you know, that was no secret one of them was going to kill the other one and just a matter of who was going to strike first I mean, it seems exactly. You know, I mean, look, Paul is dead. I can't say what movie was going to make but he was certainly building a case against John. So let's kind of summary Scott, did you ever meet Tommy Bellotti? I did, yeah. Oh, yeah. I met him. I met him with Paul. Tommy the to pay. Yeah, I, you know, I when I was a recruit, you know, I used to drive Andrew Russo and Tom develop around quite a bit and when they'd have meetings, they had meetings on several occasions with Paul and Tommy Bellotti was there and a few other guys and just let people know Tommy Bellotti was Paul Castellano's right hand man, driver and bodyguard. Some people called him Tommy the to pay because he had a really bad hair piece and he was collateral damage from the Castellano assassination where Bellotti was driving him to a meeting at a steakhouse in downtown Manhattan and when the hitters hit Castellano they also hit Bellotti. Correct. I want to kind of take us, go ahead Mike. No, so I'm so I was in their company you know, not often but enough. So Mike, let's kind of, I want to kind of hit on some some some pop culture touchstones here. Let's go to like 1984 Michael Jackson and his brothers are reuniting for a a worldwide concert tour and there's a, you know, Michael Jackson at that point was the biggest music star in the world and there was some shakedown efforts by the Colombo family to get their kind of hooks into that concert tour. Was that, is that correct? You know, not really. I mean, I wouldn't call it a shakedown Norby Walters, I'm sure you know who was. He was a talent agent and he represented a lot of the major black acts at the time for their tours and I'm talking about all the majors, you know, from Marvin Gaye on down Deon Walbrook, you name it, Norby represented them and Norby was originally around my dad I knew Norby his uncle Norby, I knew him my entire life he had a club in Manhattan not too far from the Copacabana, I think it was across the street, it was called the Norby Walters and my father was his partner there so they had a long history and when my dad went away, I kind of took Norby over and so when the tour came out, you know, Norby was talking to Joe Jackson and we were supposed to represent Michael on the tour, it wasn't a shakedown I mean we were supposed to represent them on the victory tour and for some reason there was dissension and Michael didn't want to do anything that Joe Jackson wanted to do and so on and so forth I believe that Joe Jackson the family was begging Michael please involve the brothers in this thing because he had passed the brothers by at that point they were begging him the brothers needed Michael, Michael didn't need the Jackson 5 correct and you know long story short we were supposed to represent him in the tour and Michael didn't want it he wanted, I forget the guy that he wanted, I think of his name but so that's what it was about it wasn't a shakedown, it was just a legitimate representation of Michael on the tour and that's what it was all about and you know I think you know the name Tommy Vastola Corky Vastola De Calvicante New Jersey Crime Family Capo eventually I believe he might have been the underboss and he was very involved in the music business along with Morris Levy and Rulette Records correct you got it and so you know Corky I met with him at the time and he wanted to get involved and so on and so forth and so we kind of combined our efforts and we did have a part of the tour it wasn't what we wanted because you know Michael basically called the shots there and so look if it was a shakedown then there would have been a lot more to it I mean Michael would have been met with personally and there would have been a little bit more to it but it never got to that and I can tell you because I was right in the middle of that was that before he was represented by Frank DeLeo or did you know Frank? I knew Frank afterwards I didn't know him before correct me I don't think Frank represented him at that point in time because we would have talked to Frank at that time we did not and I met Frank you know I mean he died but I met him after that Mike was there a relationship between your dad and Morris Levy yeah what was your dad's relationship with Mo Levy? yeah I mean look he wasn't with my dad but yeah you know we had Buddha records at the time we had Casablanca records my dad was involved with them Neil Bogard? Neil Bogard and the other two guys Bogard Steinberg Phil Steinberg and gosh the other guy that I became friends with I can't think of his name now he's out here with me I haven't seen him in a little while but yeah so my father was involved and they crossed paths with Morris a couple of times but Morris was closer to Tommy Bestola to Corky at that time what was your dad's relationship with David Kenner? the attorney that eventually ended up representing some of the death row rappers wasn't there a relationship between Sonny and Kenner? no I don't think my dad ever knew Kenner's out here I knew David I don't think my dad ever met him or know him David came around later on remember my father wasn't involved with these rappers because that came later my dad went away in 1970 the real rap until the 80s 90s it didn't start until the 80s in the 90s yeah so he wasn't involved in that he was involved in a lot of the bubblegum stuff he had the Shangri-La's at the time he had Tommy James Tommy James and Shandell's Buddha Records was a big label Casablanca was a big label at the time was Mollivy looked at as a gangster or was he looked at as a Jewish mob associate that benefited from who he was connected to or did people honestly fear Mollivy? well they feared Mollivy because of his connections I don't understand something for made guys anybody that wasn't a made guy was a sucker I don't care if he's the president of the United States he's a sucker, he's not a made guy he's a sucker and they were all treated that way so when you hear of a a non-made guy having so much authority or power it only comes from his relationship as far as we're concerned he's a sucker that's how it went talking current day, I'm talking back when we were in that life we were told that anybody that's not a made guy he's a sucker I don't care who he is he's a potential mark for you to take down what about Don King did you guys have some interactions with him? well I did I don't know if you remember that whole undercover investigation shadow boxing that was myself and Don King with the targets and Al Sharpton was involved in that and you know they tried to the feds tried to infiltrate boxing and tried to get something on me and King to show that there was a relationship and that the boxing world was run by the mob and so on and so forth they had a whole year undercover investigation on me and I introduced them actually to Don King but prior to the meeting I made Don know that look I don't know these guys you know I've been with them 7 or 8 months before I brought them to you but I still can't I can't verify their existence prior to that so you need to have a discussion that's totally above board and the whole thing was taped it was totally above board and the investigation never went anywhere they had to kill it but you know that was my relationship and Don was a player with us and you know he was involved with some guys in Cleveland right how much were you aware how much were you aware of his activities back before he became a boxing promoter he was one of the biggest policy number kingpins to Cleveland Ohio worked very closely with the scallish crime family how much of that did you know when he started doing business with him well I knew all about his past relationships I mean not in great detail but we knew he was connected to those guys and we knew he had street sense and you know we knew where he was coming from so you know I had no problem dealing with him at all and Sharpton was our go between let's kind of wrap up by kind of bringing this back to our wheelhouse here in Detroit where we're taping this right now I've read some interviews with you and you know when I've been obviously following being a mob aficionado a researcher an author I've followed Michael you know your career since you got out in a prison and your your reinvention but I've also seen you talk a little bit about the Jimmy Hoffa disappearance which in Detroit is you know one of the biggest stories in the history of Michigan and it's something that still comes up every couple months every year or two there's another dig they're still looking for this guy you know almost 45 years later can you give us some perspective on what you guys were hearing back in the 1970s in New York about what was happening with Hoffa here in Detroit well listen you know look let's go through the facts the fact was he came out of prison wanted to regain control in our life did not want that to happen specifically guys from New England and you know Raymond patriarch you know the whole crew and certainly our guy up in Buffalo but they didn't want that to happen and you know he basically wrote his own ticket now you know I will comment on this and I'm not I have nothing to gain and nothing to lose and it'll go no further than this I'm sure but I do not believe you know to any degree the movie that's coming out you know at paint houses or whatever I don't believe the story that was told by Frank Sheehan I happen to know differently from an extremely reliable source I know that the order came from New York okay to take him down and I know who one of the shooters is you know I believe and you know I also believe that you know the way they said they disposed of the body I don't think that's true I really don't and I've known this for a lot of years you know it's funny that actually somebody in a few years ago gave me some tapes that talked about the whole thing and I still have them with one of the shooters so I've never done anything with them I'm not trying to pull a herald over there you know the empty safe thing and all that stuff but because it's nothing for me to gain or lose but I don't believe the story now I'm sure it's going to be a good movie you know you got a great cast and you got Scorsese it's going to be a good movie there's credibility behind it I think the guy sold some books and great you know like a few other people that knew exactly what happened in Jimmy Arthur you know when they dig up the whole you know backyard or front yard of that house or you remember that I've been doing this for 12 years now I've covered about 5 or 6 digs already in my 12 years of reporting on organized crime in Detroit so yeah like I said it's a right of passage for people growing up in Detroit you know my childhood home was literally about 5 minutes from where Hoffa was kidnapped and I actually went and saw the Jack Nicholson Jimmy Hoffa movie at the multiplex which stood in the shadow of what used to be the red fox where Hoffa had his last stand and was kidnapped from as we're getting ready to wrap up here is there anything you'd like to share with us about your latest projects I know you're always working on various safe things that people know where they can find you your website, your books, anything you'd like to share with our audience well I appreciate that you know I'm all over social media I'm on Instagram and then Twitter and Facebook and LinkedIn and all of that you know my latest projects obviously I'm a prolific speaker and you know I'm doing a tour in the United Kingdom coming October November and I've got a lot of dates coming up here as always I've been doing that for 20 some odd years now I'm writing it's a political book can't give the title yet or anything but hopefully it'll be out next year if I keep on deadline which I normally don't put on trying my hardest we feel you on that for guys that have published books before we know what it feels like to have a deadline I'm sympathetic I've never made one yet I don't think they're meant to be made I think they're meant to be pushed back four or five times I think so they put up with me for some reason and then I'm starting something new just so you know I have finally agreed after 20 years and not that you know it was always my decision because this movie business is crazy but we are in active development in a movie on my life I think it's gonna happen I'm also involved with a major major production company on a television series and it's gonna be entitled Gas Wars so they're both in active very active development now and something that I'm starting now that I've been asked to do for the past couple years but just didn't feel it but I am now and that'll be launched I think October 1st I'm gonna be a personal and business coach and we're actually starting a business in that regard and one of the reasons I'm doing that is because I get asked all the time you know just business questions just personal questions when you know somebody's got a high profile and they've done a lot of stuff in their life people tend to ask you questions you know I've been so honestly guys so fortunate and so blessed to I believe have an impact on people's lives really through my faith and my testimony and what I share on a weekly basis sometimes a daily basis and so I feel moved to do that now and I'm excited about it and it might be something that keeps me doing more because I travel so much and my wife kind of put her foot down you know a few months back and said you know you get a little older now we got grandkids and it's the same way from your book Cammy? Yes, we're going on 35 years That's pretty amazing Michael wrote a book called Quitting the Mob and he really goes into detail in his love affair and romance and finding Cammy as his soul mate She saved his life No doubt about it I don't meet her You don't usually get those type of nuance in mobiles it's usually just a lot of blood and guts and this kind of lets you into a real personal side of Michael that I really connected with when I read his book and the last thing I want to ask you so I know that you go around on behalf of I think of the NCAA, NFL, NBA those kind of sporting organizations and you do talks to their athletes kind of warning them of the dangers of betting and mob guys maybe trying to infiltrate professional sports Do you still do that? Oh yeah, I was with Alabama last week with the coach Sabin Nick has taken me to every team he's had LSU, Miami, Alabama a couple of times so we share that information I give them the benefit of my experience why they shouldn't be gambling, who they got to watch out for be careful of the relationships that they make and keep it's a pretty good program and I've been doing it since 1996 not only with the pros but with all the collegiate sports and I'll be in Iowa Idaho or Iowa in the next week or so I forget which one I'm getting called a lot I did that quite a bit and then had to back off when I was doing but since Supreme Court came down with that decision to allow sports betting in all 50 states I'm getting a lot of calls now from the schools again and I've been doing a lot I feel kind of obligated to that because I started speaking as a result of the pros sports really recruiting me and then the NCAA jumped on board in 1998 so I've done over 300 colleges Tell me if you think this is accurate I think people would be shocked if they found out how much point spread manipulation is going on on a day-to-day basis in college sports I mean I'm of the belief that probably one in every five games that you're watching has some type of manipulation going on behind the scenes and I don't think people have any clue that that's happening No, you know people need to understand that the money is tremendous, very, very significant and it's all about the point spread it's not about winning or losing it's about the point spread if you can manipulate the spread over the course of a season or a number of games you can make yourself quite a bit of money and there's professionals that know how to do that and there's guys on the street that'll take advantage of it and I tell these guys, it's not only street guys it's just guys that have a that want to gamble and that are in the business of gambling or do it as a frequent habit you got to watch out for these people and these athletes they think they're sophisticated and they think they know a lot but they got a lot to learn they're not a match for guys on the street when some of these guys you look at the record on some of these point shaving scandals over the years in college and it's like a guy that's going to be an NBA draft pick or an NFL draft pick will throw their entire pro career away for a $20,000 payday when that would be like one weekly check for them if they just held out for another two years they're so shortsighted some, not all of them obviously but there are those out there that are kind of easy to manipulate you put green in front of them and the eyes go big and you convince them, you're not losing the game you're just not winning by as many as you're supposed to so they can kind of play mental gymnastics in their head that I'm not really costing my team it's not costing us in the win-loss column but at the end of the day I'm just giving and I think that what you do is very important going around and giving those type of talks because I'm guessing that 99% of the athletes you talk to are just totally in the dark about this world that is such a slippery slope Oh yeah, I'll tell you this this is a scary statistic but it's true whenever I go to a school I tell them straight out a lot of times we'll do just the football team just the basketball team from male and female from every sport and I tell them straight out I said look, I don't work for the school I don't work for the NCAA I'm a hired guy, I come in here I do my thing because I care about you people I don't want to see you getting in trouble so here's the deal, you've got a gambling situation you know somebody has a gambling situation you've got a problem, you owe some money here's my email address, email me I said don't give me your name I don't need to do anything I want to help you out, I can probably give you the right advice help you out, whatever you're going to guys I will tell you this I've done over 300, probably 350 at this point in time it hasn't failed yet by the time I get back to my hotel room I have emails from somebody in that room that's going through a gambling situation only one time have I had to convince somebody a student athlete to go to their coach I said you're in trouble there's no doubt about it and it's going to get worse you're going to be in real trouble and he took my advice and they were able to deal with it quietly without going any further but it is a situation it is a problem look with our pros is it a problem? I don't think so these guys have enough money now do they gamble of course are they normally bad gamblers? in my experience yes I don't know what it is but they don't have a problem they're not going to throw a game normally I mean I don't think you're going to see that often from the pros but the kids in college is a different story these kids get in trouble for a couple of grand and they're right they're prime to have a real situation for themselves if they get in front of the wrong person and I tell them the wrong person is out there looking for you guys all the time it's not like one in a million they're out there all the time looking for you and you're going to meet that person I guarantee it really have them put up their guard and be careful who they talk to and watch out what kind of information they spread and who they associate with and who's asking them certain questions and they're not wise to this and they need to know it when they hear it from me I'll tell you what I do and then if you want to wrap it up we can when I go in I'll tell the coach I say look I want all your linemen up front in front of the room and he'll do that and throughout the course of my talk I'll walk over to let's say I got offensive guard he's 360 pounds he's six foot five I'll tell him stand up and he'll look at me like I said stand up stand up you're three times my size he'll stand up I said let me ask you a question I said on the field I said I wouldn't come close to you you know I'd be in my grave I said no doubt about it but then what I'll do I'll walk in front of him and I'll draw this kind of line with my foot and I said but let me explain something my friend you step over this line you come into my business I'm going to make a sissy out of you I'm going to eat you up alive and there and nothing you're going to do about it not a thing I said so you want to try me and he'll look around I said okay sit down I'm telling you try to see the whole room gets quiet because you got to make them understand this is not a game this is not a game with people you know when you're talking this kind of money it's not a game anymore and they got to understand that nobody's worried about this size or anything else it don't mean a thing Mike there's that 30 I don't know if you saw it but there's that 30 for 30 ESPN did about Jimmy the Gent Burke shaving points with Boston College back in the late 70s basketball guys that was kind of compromised and shaving points was having some second thoughts and I think it was Henry Hill said you know how do you think you're going to like shooting free throws next week with your arm broke it's like it's pretty sobering to understand how deep you've gotten in if you haven't realized it up until that point exactly no I mean look and they got to understand that I mean that's the reality of it you know and one other thing I want to say the reason I've been asked this a lot lately and it's on social media so I know it's on people's minds and mostly people that follow the mob and all of that not people that are not into this at all but people ask me was this guy feared more than another guy did everybody fear John Gotti was this guy and I explained to them I said listen we didn't have to fear anybody because who they were personally because every one of us were capable of what we had to do every one of us we wouldn't be part of that life so it's not a question that you fear an individual that that person is going to beat you up or best you I says but what you do there is a healthy fear of not making a mistake to put yourself in a position where somebody like that can take advantage of so if you know you're around a treacherous guy like look in a lot of ways I love Percego I love Junior but I knew he was a very treacherous guy that was his reputation and I knew that if you know you crossed them the wrong way you had to be on your guard now I will tell you this when I left that life he was extremely upset I mean I heard one story him and I were in Lompoc the federal prison I was in the medium he was in the penitentiary he got a copy of my book and one of the hacks one of the guards told me that he's in the cell he started tearing up the pages throwing it against the wall I mean he went crazy so he took it extremely personal he was a treacherous guy Junior was and if he was out on the street and I would have had a problem it might have been you know with me or him or something had to be done and I'm not saying I would have done anything don't get me wrong but I'm trying to explain it would have been a problem of course he was locked up and his hands were tied and a lot of stuff was going on in that life but you know so I knew that so did I have a fear of what this guy could do if I left my guard down sure because I knew that I would not have acted first because look all these guys that had that reputation they all got killed everyone because you're not going to allow a guy like that to be a loose kind you're going to take care of business so that you don't have to worry about somebody like that and that's what people need to understand it wasn't that we had the fear of an individual we were all capable of doing what we had to do what we had to fear was was making a mistake and allowing a treacherous person to take advantage of us in a way so I don't know what put that in my head other than that guy yeah we appreciate your insight Mike I mean we're very fortunate to have someone with your experience and we're happy that you're still around it's remarkable that you're still here considering the people and Roberto is actually starting a new or has started a new podcast over these last couple weeks with his other radio partners all about sports betting called cash the ticket yeah so this will give some good insight for them as well Michael thank you very much we really appreciate your time and tell Lisa thank you very much for helping for coordinating this with me she was very friendly very great I appreciate her you're the life blood people like yourself are the life blood of this type of operation that we're running here with the original gangsters podcast people like you coming on sharing their life stories coloring up a life that's already so colorful but giving us insight and nuance and context that most people aren't able to get and we can't thank you enough you're always welcome to come back here if you're ever promoting anything yeah everyone you know chime in with anything that's going on current events wise always a friend of the og podcast Mike Francis you know a true gentleman of the underworld thank you Michael well guys thank you I appreciate it thanks for your understanding and bearing with us to get this done so we appreciate it this guy was way this guy was way out of the curve in terms of where the mafia was going 30 40 years ago and really envision what organized crime was going to look like in 2020 Mike was doing it back in 1980 yeah thank you thank you Michael alright guys appreciate it I'm sure we'll be in touch again great thanks Mike take care