 So good afternoon, Dr. Prithee. Thank you for coming. Good afternoon, sir. OK, so let us start this program with your permission if you're ready. So good afternoon, one and all. Thank you for joining with all of us this afternoon. My name is Dr. Aniruddha Babar, so the Department of Political Science. I'm also a coordinator of Dot Talks webinar series. And under that, we are organizing relevance of Dr. Ambedkar and significance of Dr. V.R. Ambedkar today and tomorrow. It is a lecture series that we have been running since last couple of weeks. So far, three speakers have spoken on this platform, and now we are blessed to have our fourth speaker. Let me introduce you all with our fourth speaker. She is Dr. Prithee Oja, and she will be speaking on relevance of Dr. Babar Sava Ambedkar in today's transient times. And just to have a brief introduction of her, she's an accomplished academician with specialized knowledge in the field of English literature, media studies, communication, and related areas. She is offering demonstrated ability to improve learning across classes. She is proficient in teaching, learning, and pedagogy with more than 15 years of instructional academic experience. Research areas are Dalit and Bhutan studies, media studies, language acquisition, and communication skills, including soft skills. We are really fortunate to have someone all the way from Mumbai to share her knowledge with us on this platform. And again, I repeat, the topic is relevance of Dr. V.R. Ambedkar in today's transient times. So without wasting any more moment, I would request Dr. Prithee Oja to kindly take a charge of this virtual platform and please enlighten us with her thoughts. Ma'am, over to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, and very good evening to all of you. First of all, Dr. Anirudh, thank you so much for inviting me to such august gathering. Am I audible, sir, or I need to do something? Yes, yes, very much, very much, Ma'am. OK, so I would like to thank you, first of all, for just reaching out to me all the way to Mumbai from Nagaland and then giving me an opportunity to be a part of this talk series on such a visionary Hsaiha of today's time, Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar. I would like to extend my warm regards, first of all, to the founding member, founding father, founding trustees of this institution. And I would like to start sharing my screen, sir, with your permission. Yes, ma'am, please go ahead. Give me some time. I would like to share my screen. Is my screen there? Yes, visible and clear. OK, thanks a lot. So with this, let me just introduce myself. Sir has already given very lucid introduction. I am Preeti Oza from Mumbai, St Andrews College, working in the UG program of the English Department and PG program of mass media studies affiliated to the University of Mumbai. My interest on personal level in Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar has to do with my studies of American literature and especially black American literature. And during my UG and PG study, I was actually exposed to the black American writings, like William Faulkner and all. And that has actually given me a very intriguing entry into the area of marginalized first literature, then life, then speakers, then leaders. And then I started working on the literature first and then writing later on. And then that has given me some guided way to the Dalit Buddhist identities. And when it comes to the Dalit Buddhist identity, that was the time my interaction with Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar's thoughts and ideology started. It's been more than 10 years I've been working on his ideologies, on his thoughts, on his papers, on his articles, trying to connect him to literature, life, poetry, music, somewhere. So this is what is my relevance today to be here on this platform. So first of all, I would like to acknowledge and thank Dr. P.S. Lorim, the chairman and principal emeritus of the University College, Nagaland, Dr. Hivas Sakhim, principal of the college, and Dr. Anirudh Sir, who was very cordially, very diligently connecting with me and then sorting my all the queries on so many calls and messages. So this is a humble acknowledgement of all your efforts, sir, and that is the reason I'm here today. Starting with my presentation, some areas which I would like to touch upon today as a part of my presentation would be, of course, because as I was told, that the lecture will be open for the public and not only for the academicians. So that way I just thought of touching upon some important aspects to understand his relevance in today's time. So life scouts, scholarly contributions, public life, contribution to marginalized. Analysis of his major thoughts, not all the thoughts, of course, some of the major thoughts we are going to touch upon. Most importantly, he is the focus on the caste system and the areas of issues of untouchability in India. Many just don't try and connect Dr. Ambedkar with women empowerment. But my point here is to connect both of these areas so strongly because most of his ideas are based on the way he has positioned women in the entire structure of society. And finally, we cannot not talk about two so prominent milestones of Indian history of one side Dr. Ambedkar and the other side Mahataka. So this is something which I would like to talk about today. On the screen, you can see his brief sketch of the life, maybe a little bit about his biographical details. And as you can see here that coming from a small place like Mahu in Indore and reaching to the Columbia University and of course the London School of Economics, this is a journey what has actually shaped his global mindset. And that was also one of the problems because the journey which was made from Mahu in maybe 1890s or maybe 1900, which was, in my personal opinion, was a little ahead of his time. And maybe that was one of the reasons why we are still trying to place Dr. Ambedkar in the current context. And one of the best, most relevant, and still most controversial quote of Dr. Babasai Ambedkar is that, we must stand on our own feet and fight as best as we can for our rights. So carry on your agitation and organize your forces. Power and prestige will come to you through struggle. Now this is something which is also putting him on a different vertical than Mahatma Gandhi, right? But why I have selected this particular quote today to begin my lecture is that basically the kind of radical attitude what we see in this quote today is something which is still not subdued. And this is why we are still finding Dr. Ambedkar much more relevant in today's life. Let me start with the political career and the way the construction of ideologies has happened. Very elaborated, my stones here just quickly going through this, when we talk about Ambedkar, we also have a lot of literature what he has started because I think this is something what is making him a sort of a masked leader. And we are talking about a phase in the time when even newspaper was not that much type of popular medium to reach out. I forget about social media, but this is where he was a kind of a single-handedly managing the kind of publications, magazines, books, articles, periodicals or just simple handouts and flyers. And somehow these handouts and flyers have also worked as a very connecting force to wherever he has gone, he has traveled and he has worked with. So the first such case what we are talking about is the Bhaisakrit Hithkarini Sabha. And 1924 is very first step in the active politic, active political career he started in. This is the basic step what he has taken. Along with this Bhaisakrit Hithkarini Sabha, when the Bhaisakrit Bharat and as a newspaper and Muknayaka as a weekly magazine. So these three has provided a very connecting bond to many of the local leaders of that period. And of course the downtrodden people, what that time used to call them Harijan, maybe your name by Amad Bhagwanti to the untouchables. So here are some of the important aspects. 1932 for the very first time all India untouchability league. I mean, no one can even, no one could have thought of doing this, uniting them together. This is where the power of the Sahihah lies. 47, our very first elected minister of law in Nehru cabinet. And he was the one to have the very first difference about the Hindu code. We are going to talk about it in the further slides. After independence also, his own area of working towards the downtrodden, the elites and the untouchables in India, he did not stop. Because I think he was totally disappointed the way we have received the kind of independence, the way we have received our own India. This was not supposed to be the way he has envisioned. We are going to talk about that also further. And this gives us something which is very prominent even today to talk about. Before that, I would like to just serve my screen visible. I am my audible. Ma'am, I think your screen is visible, but on which slide you are, because we are only seeing... I think it's stopped, I guess, because we are only seeing Dr. Ambedkar's photograph. Hello. Yes, sir. Can you please share your screen once again? Oh, slides were not moving? Yeah, slides were not moving. So I was just wondering whether you are moving slides or whether they are keeping it like this. Yes, I was moving slides. Oh, and then they're not visible at all. All right. Yes, yes. Now we are able to see your slide number one. Relevance software. I guess when I go for a slide show, I think... Is this changing now? Can you move your slides? I am moving my slides. No, no, not... I think maybe some network issues from your side. No, I think this is not taking my slideshow mode. No problem. Okay. All right. My apologies for not showing you the slides. I'll be very quickly sharing my screen and running at least for two, three slides which I was talking about. Sorry, good I asked you, sir, in between. It's okay, ma'am, it doesn't matter. After all, technical issue, yeah. No, I'll just... I just want to... Yeah, please. Slides there, sir. Yes, your first slide is visible. Can you click on the second? No, I need to take individual slides, I guess. Because I'm not able to... Yes, you have to take individual slides. That would be better, I guess, yeah. Yeah, okay, no problem. So this is something which I've already told you. The flow of my presentation would be like this. Introduction, life-skirts, quality contributions, public life, contribution to marginalized, analysis of some of the major thoughts, status of caste, unbed current women, and finally the confluence of unbed current versus not. And as I was talking about his life sketch, sir, please let me know if my slides stop moving because I'm not able to see my slides. Sure, sure, no problem. Now we can see early life. Yes, okay. So this is something which is like the biographical picture of he coming from a small town in Mahu in MP and going to the Columbia University. As I told you that this may be one of the reasons why we have to reposition him today that he was much ahead of his time in whatever he was doing. And then I have told you about this particular quote also. Sir, once, last time I'll start, I'll try putting it on the slideshow. If it doesn't come, then I will have to stop. Is this moving now in the slideshow, sir? No, ma'am, I think better whatever you are doing now, let us continue with that. I think that would be... Yes, okay. So this is the quote I've already spoken about that this is the crux of his entire difference and different ideologies, which is making him different from the other contemporary leaders. That we must stand on our own feet and fight as best as we can for our rights. So carry on your agitation and organize your forces. Power and prestige will come to you through struggle. So with this, he has started his political career and construction of his ideology also was coinciding with his structure. And here we can... I've already told about 1924, his very first entry into the active politics in the form of, you know, making Bhahishgrith Hitakarini Sabha. And I think also told about the way he has also made the periodicals, magazines, writings, posters, flyers, very, very popular. And that was one of the reasons why he also, as you know, insisted, supported and courage and motivated the kind of education for all. We're going to talk about that also in the coming slides. And then we also spoke about 1947, the very first minister of law, elected minister in the Nehru cabinet. But from there, I guess the problem has already started with the elected leaders and the ideologies, the clashing ideologies we find immediately after the independent, the very first cabinet meeting. But then also, I think the way he has foreseen the kind of changes with the independent India was not something which he got in final bargain. Then the shift in his ideology from the active politics to the actual grassroots level working with the life and lifestyle and the life condition of the untouchables in India, even after 1947, that is after the independence. And that has somehow put him to a very different mode of different kind of more different kind of thought process. And he tried searching many of the answers into the religion itself. And that was very, that has actually worked as a catalyst when he has participated in the World Buddhist Conference for the first time in 1940. And then he says that lost rights are never regained by begging and by appeals to the conscience of the assertors. But by relentless struggle, votes are used for sacrificial offerings and not lines. I mean, the kind of radicalism, the kind of aggressiveness, the kind of frustration, the kind of anger, it has never ceased somehow whatever kind of force what we see today, this is underlined. I mean, that kind of anger, that kind of frustration always underscores whatever he's about to say. Somehow he was always, you know, maybe instigating. I would like to use that word in a very restricted manner, but he did not see any other way to have that level playing field with the different caste problems or the social problems. And then when he has started writing about all these things and this is where the entire, you know, the complete, you know, crux of his writing. Right from 1923 to 1957, almost in the time he's, you know, he died, he passed away. And even after that, because many of the books and works and articles are being published even after his death. So this is something which is actually giving us a very strong and big body of his works which is actually helping us today, people like you and me, we are trying to position his ideas today. We are trying to reposition him today. We are trying to make him, you know, we are trying to make him very relevant today only because we have this, this kind of complete, you know, big body of big volumes of work, ideas, thoughts, talks, articles and ideologies in the written form with us. Another comes is another very, you know, strong issue. Equality may be fiction, but nonetheless one must accept it as a governing principle. Now on this basis, this one line has actually made him write the entire constitution where the equality is always resonating almost on every page of the constitution. Now when we talk about the constitution of India, of course we all know about this part of recent history that he was made the chairman of the drafting committee and then the first draft has already, you know, guaranteed us a lot of, you know, civil liberties for individual citizens, religion, social, you know, upliftment and in this particular, you know, treaties in this particular, particular work, I mean the institution, the constitution of India. When we say that he has also argued and he has also given us a kind of what we say, the Holy Bible sort of thing, the commandments sort of thing for all of us today that each and every word of the institution, institutional practices wherever we are seeing in India, it is completely giving us a total absolute 100% sense of quality and almost on paper. I'm not talking about the execution part. On paper, just remove any page, any law, any act and then you will see the wonder he has tried, the kind of utopia he has seen. He is the kind of, you know, idealistic society has projected. So this is where he argued for extensive economic and social rights for women and almost every possible strata of the society. Now when we talk about the constitution of India, while we are talking about it today, this is what is the crux of the talk about Dr. Ambedkar today. That the preamble of the constitution of India, if we follow, if we make sure that each and every word is converted into reality, then India actually can, you know, be on the complete idealistic state. That the selection of each and every word here is also giving us a lot of things to think about, lot of ideas to ponder over. That even after so many years, which part of this preamble is completely 100% attended, accepted or attained? No, I'm sorry. We have not yet reached even a half way through. And then when he was trying to define the word democracy, he said that and I quote, my definition of democracy is a form and method of government whereby revolutionary changes in the economic and social life of the people are brought about without bloodshed. Now, why he's talking about bloodshed? Because basically he was having a lot of westernized ideology and unlike many of the, you know, Indian non-national congress leaders, he was not very much, you know, comfortable with the kind of ideologies what Gandhi has propagated and the people of India have started following. But somewhere down the line, he was also expecting no bloodshed. Somehow this word is not very much fitting into his entire scheme of liberty, quality and fraternity. Maybe these three words when we try and connect it to, maybe long back, say for example, the French Revolution, let's say for example, when we are finding these three words for the first time being used during the French Revolution, the bloodshed goes hand in hand when we are talking about any democracy. So the way we have attained democracy is somewhere he was also amused. And then he was also telling that also he is expecting it, but somehow not very much attainable. And another very prominent thing what is making him relevant is the constitution and the capacity to go for amendments. And clauses of the constitution, flexible, very much, you know, amendable and this is also to keep it lively, keep it alive, keep it flexible and to keep it dynamic. And then we say what we think of the fundamental rights and when we talk about Article 15 towards 17 or 23 or 24 and then when we are putting all these four words together that no discrimination in the ground of religion, race, caste, sex or place of birth somewhere down the line, we also know that what he is talking about the deep rooted grassroots level problems of the Hindu religion to put it in a very, very particular state. So I'm not generalizing here. And to get rid of the dogmas of Hindu religion which has actually given rise to so many other issues because of the, you know, straightforward or maybe because of the debatable for Varanasi, he tried to give us an answer. He tried to give us some solutions to these problems through this one holy Bible that is the constitution of India. Sir, am I audible, visible because I'm not able to see the audience? Yes, yes, you are audible, you are visible, we are listening to you. Okay, thank you. What he wanted by making the fundamental rights so very significant he wanted justice, just to see it. And this is something which he was counting on it on the constitution of India till he died that he said that can he believe that the moment these rights are just to see it I have my complete faith in the constitution and the people of India. There are some areas which are still, you know, under consideration whether to beat the completion of this thing or not but I think the propagating by just by, you know, mentioning these ideas in the constitution. So for example, he insisted on Hindu code bills suggesting the basic improvements and amendments in the assembly. So these are some of the ideas where though he could not come to the consensus though he could not convince the local that the contemporary government to go ahead and make it a bill to pass in the parliament. But it has given the generations from generation to generation enough, you know, enough hope for thought and then many of the social upliftment movements in the last 30, 40 years are completely based upon these ideas what he has for the first time mentioned in the constitution of India. Through the constitution of India is his biggest contribution and maybe the most controversial why we are talking about him today are maybe five areas under the social reforms. Now just let me put it very, you know, clearly here that when we talk about Dr. Ambedkar and his relevance today I don't think we are going to limit ourselves into maybe social reform or he as an economist or Dr. Ambedkar as a lawyer or a barrister or Dr. Ambedkar as a maker of the constitution maybe he is wearing so many hats at that time and these roles are so interconnected that it is difficult for any of us to, you know, talk about Dr. Ambedkar in isolation. I mean these all are very interconnected areas of his life fortunately that kind of an expertise, that kind of education that kind of qualification actually gave him complete right and complete power to critique upon the idea to propagate any idea and that is what is making him the most comprehensive kind of a leader to talk about so many areas maybe so many problem areas of the Indian society today starting with the first one that reconstructing Hindu social order and religion now I would like to hear talk about these ideas but all these ideas are basically already mentioned in his books and articles and these are the ideas where he has very repeatedly written about and he was somehow not very convinced the way we have finally understood or maybe we are practicing these ideas till date all these ideas remain controversial remain open to multiple interpretations and unfortunately we are still seeing so many conflicts sometimes even violent conflicts in the society but when we are talking about it today let us talk about the first one when he wanted to go for the Hindu social order and reshuffle of the Hindu social order these are the things that he suggested that there should be only one standard book for Hindu religion it should be acceptable recognized by all Hindus Veda Purana Shastra should not be treated as sacred this is the most problematic statement till date for the Sanatan Hindu followers and somehow the plurality, the multiplicity the multi-dimensional aspect of Hinduism is still not ready to accept it but for Ambedkar if this would have been accepted this would have actually made the lives of Hindus also and Indians in general very very easy but somehow it still remains with lot of questions one more suggestion priesthood must cease to be hereditary and be on the exam basis today it looks like a laughable idea that why a priest should pass any exam but just try and understand and think of it as a rational idea not a religious idea that what kind of changes we can actually make if we follow this one small statement one small suggestion that the priesthood must cease to be hereditary and be on the exam basis let me tell you my dear participants here that the Hindu religion, Hindu temples and the entire lineage which runs for the priesthood has done a lot of harm and that is also not helping the religion to develop the way it has to be developed of course I take complete responsibility of this statement when I am making it here but the learned priest what I mean to say learned is not learned in the regular official formal education every religion has its own school of education to train the priests and the train and train the next generation to understand the nuances of the religion you take it for example any of this Christianity, Islam, Jainism, Sikhism, Buddhism they all have very very established institutionalized religion religious studies and priests those who are going through those studies and then coming and taking over religion as a basic way of learning a leading life in my opinion they make much more positive difference to the continuation of the religion they can connect well to the people so it is basically doing good to the religion in itself somehow this one point is not still understood in the Hindu religion and the Hindu priesthood which is relying more on the lineage, religion, heredity and everything you can think of this as again one of the biggest question mark on what we are talking about today he says again that priest should be the servant of the state and should be paid by the state and subjected to disciplinary action can we think of it today? no, unfortunately this statement in itself sounds so very offensive to many of the people there the number of priests should be limited by the law Brahminism is the poison which is called Hinduism these all are the areas these all are the questions if we read his book, the readers of Hinduism we are actually talking about one very prominent book here and this is something which I just wanted to put it in front of my audience today that these are the areas he has spoken about talking about the Varna what he said that along with each Varna there are caste, sub-caste and kids and then there are many sub-divisions of the caste which are far from Perinicious than the four Varna today when India being a very complex cultural entity it's very difficult for all of us today to identify anyone just by the name or surname or the caste or the work it is very very, it is complicated to it was impracticable to reduce the thousands of castes into four Varna's in accordance with the merits and demerits of each individual the way we have started dividing deciding that only four Varna's are there and each and every one will be fitting into all four Varna's Dr. Ambedkar has actually put a very big question mark that how can we do that the names of Brahmin, Shatriya, Vaishya, Shudra have become associated with certain sentiments of high and low and were now based on birth rather than the birth the biggest problem of Indian society till date that we are not able to remove the caste from the birth and this is somewhere, it is a collective failure in my personal opinion it's a collective failure of all of us so unless this social ideal is destroyed root and branch there can not be liberty, quality, love or social brotherhood so what he suggests said that this four Varna's system should be discontinued and new things must be accompanied by new names now this was a suggestion, a very very strong suggestion but what happened after that then he says that turn in any direction you like caste is the monster that crosses your path you cannot have political reform you cannot have economic reform unless you kill this monster this was told almost 70, 80 years back how many of us are still finding it relevant? I find it relevant, I find it very very relevant today because somehow this monster is still haunting us day in and day out and our generation, current generation or future generations are all being bugged by this monster every day somehow Dr. Ambedkar's lineage has not made much difference to all of us third point in the social reform so the system of scaling caste in graded order should be abolished what he suggested, he suggested inter caste marriages dignity behind caste, education should be made compulsory and universal recruitment of army should be open, fair and equal and they should be right to vote and contest elections should have equal opportunity to participate in their government please remember these all things were propagated during the making of the constitution of India that means 47, 48, 49 these three years were like complete kind of brainstorming years where these issues were being discussed not why today we are talking about it you remove any one pointer from this slide and tell me are we 100% achieving that? no, in fact unfortunately maybe since last two decades we are seeing India going back in the maybe kind of very stringent past some of the practices which were completely abolished has now started coming back in new forms and new ways and with digital touch and we are going to talk about it in the later slides but my point here is to just put it across that these were the pointers, these were the guidelines these were the principles propagated where are we today? nowhere, we are still struggling and that is why he is relevant idea social organization equality of opportunity based on social justice for every individual now this is something which I want to talk about that finally what happened? equality the way he has propagated was never considered in its totality and that has given rise to another controversial practice of having reservation now reservation was proposed to give equal kind of maybe a provider sort of equity and equality to be underprivileged or lesser represented classes but today after maybe 40-50 years of this regular practice of reservation in jobs and education and qualification what we see today is though at one level those who have got the benefits of reservations have made a place for themselves but the social stigma attached to this is not real and we all experience it every day not only in India now because of the digital connect and 24-7 wired lifestyle day in and day out we are getting so many examples of maybe caste harassment or maybe the racial harassment for Indians even abroad so wherever we go we carry our own taboos wherever we go we carry our own hatred we carry our own differences so how we say that we have done some justice to Dr Ambedkar's ideas because even today not a single day newspaper is coming to my home without giving me at least one sad story about how a Dalit is tortured here how a caste discrimination is done there and how this particular government is talking about that particular caste we have not yet come to any doable solution I am sorry to say that are my things visible or are you able yes you are should I continue please take your time we are enjoying it after talking about these four very very prominent social reform failures on our part I deliberately use that word failure because not even on one count today we can say that yes we have made some progress all four areas somehow we have failed and finally when he is talking about women I measure the progress of the community by the degree of progress which women have achieved this is a very very prominent statement made by him and he has worked single-handedly during that part to give that kind of a base that kind of a ground to women in politics, society, education or jobs and if you just look at the constitution we have some special articles for example 17, 15, 16, 4, 46, 16, 4, 231, 1 and 332, 1 all these articles are touching upon the lives of women in various strata of life so untouchability was constitutionally abolished it is now criminal offence reservation for schedule cards provided in legislature and in government services extended to the educational institutions propounded that women should be given absolute right to a property and doctors should have equal share over fathers property again I am reminding you that these words were written, propagated, proposed somewhere in 1947 in between 1947 and 1942 where did we get this when did we actually get that right that the fathers property is equally shared among doctors and sons just five years back if I am not wrong it has just happened just five, six years back that means again on count five we are still having that sense of failure so when we are talking about this five areas of social reform what comes next for us if you believe in living respectable life you believe in self-help which is the best help that means as I told you that after providing the constitutional benefits after providing the independent India to have their entire you know as an independent world still Ambedkar's heart was somewhere in the position or maybe the plight of Dalit in those days and then he never ceased to tell them very honestly to come together and at the same time he always asked them to continue with their own kind of movements, fight, aggression at least protest so the sense of protest even today when we see in so many young educated, qualified, smart, young men and women of the Dalit community somewhere we can think of this quote if you believe in living respectable life you believe in self-help which is the best help continuing with the kind of support what he has provided the base what he has provided for women gender equality, women education, Hindu code bill women organisation and maternity bill today we don't realise the value of these bills because somehow we have taken it for granted but just imagine a life of a working woman without these all bills and you can actually think of the type of contribution what we have already received constitutional provision I have already told about this the numbers you can check it on the screen that what these articles are talking about and how these all work in favour of women and children of course we can have a look at this thing here going ahead touching upon another controversial part that is religion I like the religion that teaches liberty, equality and fraternity so what happens when the same religion which has made him the outcast and then when he has told that I don't believe in that religion because that religion has not accepted me so I will not accept the religion then what happens you all know that history he believed, I mean he tried very hard to make that kind of amend in the religious leader's mind in the social leader's mind but somehow he could not succeed to the way he should have religion must mainly be a matter of principles only it cannot be a matter of rules the moment it degenerates into rules it ceases to be a religion as it kills responsibility which is an essence of the true religious act look at the kind of openness in this statement look at the kind of global touch in this statement today when we read this statement it is equally applicable to any and every religion any and every religious practice in any part of the world but somehow India could not respect the kind of seditions made by Dr. Ambedkar in the area of religious practices he himself was never an atheist it was not that he did not believe in religion he was not an atheist but he was also not very much very staunch practitioner of the religion which practises the regular rituals almost for 30 years of his life his attitude to religion was neutral maybe little social and he was looking at it from the utilitarian point and within Hinduism he had to suffer immensely as an untouchable mahar as we have seen that he was born in the mahar community mahar is still a Maharashtrian community which is still considered as a part of the SE that is schedule caste and he somehow could not understand this basic difference or basic discrimination just by being born in XYZ place or XYZ pen very first time in 1927 of course that was the time when he was also heavily under the influence of Mahatma Gandhi and he tried to launch a Satyagra to touch water at each other tank in mahar and then the next was to enter the Kalaran temple in 1930 now this is the kind of a step which was not accepted well by the established upper class leaders because somehow this particular instance or maybe these two events they looked at it as a kind of a threat to the established Hindu religion because to get the water from the village well and to enter into the temple where entries are restricted only on the basis of the caste and then when he tried manually doing it he was not taken well by almost every possibility and then in 1935 so after five years of maybe very harsh opposition a complete failed attempt to make the leaders understand to make some amendments in the established religion which was religious books he had given up finally in 1935 and then he declared that I was born a Hindu I had no choice in my birth but I will not die as a Hindu because I do have a choice and what was his choice we all know that he accepted Buddhism now when we look at this entire conversion process today in today's light we find it so very relevant today the Dalits marginalized communities in India nobody is getting that kind of a benefit of being in Hindu religion because somewhere by giving them different names from Harijan to Dalit to Siddhu caste to any other name but it is a name the moment you name it this is V versus they and then this V versus they has never ceased, never stopped so what happened in 1936 he convened a conference of Dalit near Nashik to discuss the issue of conversion almost 10,000 attended the Nashik conference and after discussing the pros and cons he has opted to go for the conversion Buddhism now why Buddhism again we have a very very strong systematic article written by Dr. Ambedkar where he has put this is what I am telling you here we are talking about a man who was equally qualified to talk about the canonical Hindu religion scriptures and the other world religion because he was also one of the best anthropologists he was also one of the one of the biggest kind of reader for almost every possible Indian way the scripture after doing that when he has tried to leave that religion that was also one phase and very beautiful article is there on that Vasanth Moon has just recently compiled that article under the government of Maharashtra project where he had that a type of he was contemplating to live without any religion but to be atheist or maybe to be an agnostic in those days was not a very prominent and popular choice for his followers so what he proposed he proposed Buddhism there are two reasons why he proposed Buddhism that there would be no caste no claims of infallibility and the main objective was to emancipate the suffering humanity because the basis of the Buddhism is to go from suffering to truth in different right so Ambedkar advocated Buddhism not only for India but also for the entire striped religion world today when we look at it again the problem comes again the issue comes that what happened I mean after he passed away very shortly after converting to Buddhism the way the neo-buddhist the Dalits those who converted into Buddhism and today they are called the neo-buddhist of course they were following Mahayana, Navayana and it's a kind of mixed culture but the name was given neo-buddhist who are there today those who are worshipping Dr. Ambedkar and Buddha both as as their gods so somewhere from being a leader to being a god his journey has not given him that kind of support because again by telling his disciples as neo-buddhist we are not still making him a part of the mainstream canonical Hindu religion so again what we are what I'm talking about today is we have somewhere failed Dr. Ambedkar miserably even in that point sir am I audible visible yes you are you are how much more time do I have because I still have two more important points sure please go ahead take your time so the fundamental principle of Buddhism is equality this is something which is you know very strong point for Ambedkar to go ahead with Buddhism Buddhism was called the religion of Shudras there was only one man who raised his voice against separatism and untouchability and that was God Buddha now again this is a little problematic statement and problematic quote here because if you try and understand this in a little complicated narrative today Buddhists are still considered Hindus number one reservations are possible that means schedule cast whoever is put into the list of schedule cast they are all considered Hindus that means somewhere down the line the entire idea of living or renunciating that religion has not you know somehow being successful in India because the constitution which was prepared to give them equality is only the constitution which is trying to put them into the overall you know the Hinduism they wanted to leave that word Hindu and that is why they adopted for Neo-Buddhist but the religion the reservation benefits is only given to the schedule cast and schedule cast are only coming from Hindu others can come into STs but STs are only from the Hindu so somewhere the entire narrative also has failed in my personal opinion that they never wanted to be a Hindu but just to get the benefit which is proposed by Dr. Ambedkar they are still called Hindu somewhere the narrative is not matching this is my personal opinion then after that Neo-Buddhist what we call them today is the new meaning given to the Buddhism the essential human condition is not individual suffering because of deeds but social suffering that is produced by a society based on inequality so the concept of enlightenment is not about the individual enlightenment Buddha is not considered here as an individual who is enlightened and reached to the state of nirvana this is a society this is projected this is a vision for a society which is founded on liberty equality, fraternity, justice and compassion and then emancipation through religion conversion to Buddhism was done only on the basis of humanity he did not convert as an individual he did it with his almost 30,000 disciples it was always a collective act see as I told you that he himself was contemplating not to follow any religion but he had a larger cause bigger cause at hand and that was to uplift the Dalit to uplift the downtrodden and he could very well understand that without any religion this kind of connection of the community will never happen that was his own personal reason to go for the collective acceptance or the conversion of Buddhism he converted to Buddhism not to worship different gods or any god but as a religion that universalizes the values of human life and to embrace an idea of humanity beyond the social order so it was not that the Buddha the institutionalized Buddhist religion has appealed to him no even today when we consider and compare and contrast these two these two Buddhism I mean of course I am making this very difficult statement here that the monastic Buddhism is very different today than the socially engaged form of Buddhism and today when we talk about the socially engaged form of Buddhism this is where Rambedkar's contribution to propagate that Buddhism as a kind of socially self-lifting vehicle has come into nature so this side of religion was never understood by any other religious leaders or political leaders before Dr. Ambedkar has boosted and then we have a very quick look at how economy also has got benefited through Ambedkar's entire idea but as I told you he was a kind of a person who was not who we cannot discuss in isolation so I cannot talk about his position today or his status today or his relevance today without talking about his anthropology education, religion or maybe economics so here we are talking about his connection to economics he was the economist by qualification and the entire establishment of the Indian banking system right from the establishment of the Reserve Bank of India is his brainchild so we have to give that kind of complete credit to him as an economist but the kind of ideas what he has propagated for the Indian economy also somehow today is equally relevant if the depressed classes gain their self-respect and freedom they would contribute not only to their progress but also to their prosperity but also by their industry intellect and courage would contribute also to the strength and prosperity of the nation this is a very very strong statement because just by saying this he is telling the policy makers very openly that by denying the rights to equality to one particular class of this society you are denying them the country into the mainstream economy and you are not doing good to your own national economy just by doing that very strong statement and of course his two ideas very very prominent even today first is the intellectual slavery and the second one is called the shadowing effect what we mean by the intellectual slavery he says that Indians most often quote foreign authors neglecting contributions of own Indians and shadowing effective his own magnificent works which are completely sidelined or conveniently forgotten and just to put him as the messiah of Dalit this is something which we have to consciously remove when we talk about Dr. Ambedkar because he was not only a Dalit leader he was not only a Buddhist leader he was an economist far excellence he was an anthropologist far excellent he was a writer far excellent somehow very conveniently these areas are conveniently forgotten so Indian economist of course as I have told you already that a student professor I mean Columbia University and of course as a professional economist being a part of the first establishment of all the financial institution from where did he get his ideas because he actually worked very diligently on the historical review of the British economy the way India company has functioned in India and today happily sharing that these three ideas what we are seeing today are totally based on his own you know concept his own ideas on the Indian economy of course the replacement of planning commission by Nikki Ayog provision of finance commission and the entire constitution of India here we can actually see that his ideas are being somewhere you know being established into the kind of institution two important things we can quickly discuss and then we can go ahead with the for the final concluding remarks he said that the economic part of Indian you know the Indian economy somehow is not very labor friendly now this is something which he is talking about very extensively in his book annihilation of caste how and what he is talking I am coming to the slide little later on so what he says that the division of labor a very very basic economic term but we use it today and as per the Varna system as per this pyramid also is telling us that untouchables taking the base of that pyramid but again what is happening isn't when you go up the pyramid is becoming narrower and the Brahmins are not absolutely contributing in the area of labor and this is a very true picture even after say 50 or 60 years of you know economic status so what he said that Chatur Varna was a concept of division of labor and annihilation of caste is a division of laborers and here he also had some confluence with the concept of economics propagated by Mahatma Gandhi what he said that the caste system is a major obstacle to economic growth and development through immobility of capital and labor untouchability was not only a religious system it is also an economic system so we are not when we talk about untouchability as a social tab it is not only touching upon the social fabric it is equally affecting economic fabric of the society with far worse severity and finally talk about two important global leaders what he had now I have selected two quotes said by Gandhi on Abedkar and Abedkar on Gandhi when Dr. Abedkar says he that Gandhi has almost in everything the simplicity of the child with the child's capacity for self deception like a child he can believe in anything he wants to believe he may be trying to spiritualize politics politics have certainly commercialized him very very strong quote here on the other side Gandhi is a quote you have born as an untouchable but I have adapted myself untouchable I mean this is somehow Gandhi's own way of you know your slide is not moving my slide is not moving about the quote was this my slide last slide is my slide there sir this was your last slide Dr. Abedkar's quote yes so when we see this is a very important part I see this quote as Gandhi's own you know maybe a kind of sort of a damage control where he could not help to remove the problem of untouchability even after having such a widespread you know connect and power and influence over Indian people somewhere down the line he could not make any change and that is why I think this is a very kind of a personal response he is giving to Abedkar saying that your born is an untouchable but I have adapted myself as an untouchable but not very in my personal opinion not very convincing now when we talk about both the ideas both of them when division of labour versus division of labourer village and the salvation of India Gandhi has given a call to people to back to village to go back to village and revival of village industries we all know about his concept of Sarvodaya right and the Swaraj but was more into agriculture is the most congested occupations that was the time he has actually had that vision that agriculture will not answer the problems of Indian economy and luckily after almost 40-50 years in 1990s and 1995 we tried we understood the problem and we have opened up for the global economy so thankfully some areas some ideas we see the results today that when he said that agriculture is the most congested occupation hence salvation of the whole India lies in the greater urbanization this was Abedkar's and then when we think of him today we cannot just overlook the way he had that he had made that impact that unless you go for the greater urbanization greater industrialization Sarvodaya will not answer the future you know challenges of the economy of India and we all are seeing the results today Indian agriculture is an occupation not an industry and the counter argument given by Dr. Ambedkar is that greater urbanization reviving our towns driving excess population to town industrialization the sound remedy for problem of small we could see this kind of argument happening almost 56 years back and today when we have actually taken a stand as a country and we are seeing some good results I think we can actually finally thank Dr. Ambedkar today and now coming back to again two very important you know differences in both the ideologies Ambedkar versus Gandhi we mean no harm to the Hindu society when we demand separate electorates if we choose separate electorates we do so in order to avoid the total dependence on the speak with of the caste Hindu in a matter of perfect in our destiny this is a quote written with reference to the Pune pact unfortunately when Dr. Ambedkar has demanded the special specific separate electorate for the Dalits for the untouchables and Gandhi ji had to go for the you know fasting until death and then when finally just to save the life of Gandhi leaders had actually come together and convinced Dr. Ambedkar to to withdraw his demand that was a time when we had something like Pune pact but in the view of the mass of search when this this and of course to save the life of Gandhi he was compelled to soften his stand so the separate electorate don't know today I don't want to comment on it in isolation of all the situations put together but just imagine the kind of a strong you know demand he has put forward so when the reservation was allowed why the separate electorate was such a big problem I mean today again a question to Kondaro so last few slides why do we need Ambedkar's thoughts and ideology today because he was all of this put together so today we cannot talk about legality discrimination inequality governance caste history politics or economics of India in last 50 years without talking about Dr. Ambedkar's contribution in that he was determined to address social reality as it is and not just how we would like it to and this is a very very strong you know connection here and very very idealistic at the same time realistic take that address the issues as it is do not isolate it in some utopian world and then try and talk about it took the perspective of those at the bottom who are oppressed he insisted that the conditions of the poor were the result not of individual disappointments but of the working of the social system under which they live that means there is no one single person responsible for the for the evils of the society society collectively is responsible for all the evils which is equity which is the deeper and more embracing problem with which Dr. Ambedkar referred and equity and equality both the things he somehow could not put it together and he was trying at it always a struggle to get both the things and we still believe in these ideas because this possessed would progress on the basis of claims to write that they were theirs by the means of organizations that they and nobody else control the elites hold civil rights universal human rights and will not depend upon the gift leadership or patronage of others worldwide he oppressed and exploited people desire not charity but the realization of their rights whether right to health, right to education, right to equal treatment or right to justice and he was a founding figure of such confident claims and that is why we are still talking about Ambedkar's journey today thank you so much Thank you Dr. Preeti for this really enlightening and very engaging lecture it was like an intellectual treat for all of us because when you look at Ambedkar you basically look at as you rightly mentioned that he was wearing different hats and he was a lawyer, he was an academician he was a policy maker he was a politician he even shared his thoughts on water management absolutely yeah even on the water management so when we engage ourselves with Ambedkar we realize that Ambedkar was never a Dalit leader he was never a Dalit leader he was basically a visionary who had inclusiveness in his approach global leader I would always call him a global leader indeed indeed a global leader I mean even if you look at Dr. Ambedkar's contribution to the tribal upliftment especially for the people of the North East also that is also very prominent when it comes to the issues of the women, when it comes to even the issues of the minorities right the religious minorities Dr. Ambedkar's name is proudly taken so madam first of all thank you so much for bringing all these things together on this our platform and we are really blessed to have it but now before the question comes I am opening this platform for the questions but let me ask you the first question we have a nice to discuss about the relevance of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar to all of us as human beings as Indians as well as human beings but still somewhere we feel that the way Ambedkar needs to be projected in Indian society has not been done so far in many communities Ambedkar's contribution is ignored because Ambedkar has never been able to reach to those people the thoughts of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar so what could be the reasons behind that is it happened deliberately because some sort of grudges against Dr. B. R. Ambedkar or what exactly happened because Gandhi is everywhere Mr. Gandhi's thoughts, his ideology Mr. B. R. Ambedkar is everywhere his loving and kindness is everywhere but Ambedkar's notion of justice and equality and to make a man as a human being is nowhere to be found so what is your take on it Dr. Puthi please go ahead very interesting question and I think my answer will intrigue you further rather than answering it but I think I would like to put the concept of power and knowledge and when the making of knowledge or making of the system is in the hands of powerful and if the powerful is not convinced about somebody's knowledge then that person will not come as a part of the mainstream canonical life ever reason for Dr. Ambedkar's consistent very deliberate systematic denial into the public for a maybe two reasons first is somehow after he embraced Buddhism and just within four months three months he passed away so the last few months he was always I mean he has actually given a very big jerk to the mainstream Hindus just by him I mean who just leaves the Hinduism and goes out and embraces the new religion the mainstream Hindus were still not able to come out of the shop I guess and then finally the way the Neo-Buddhist has started continuing and instead of putting his very you know kind of ideas systematic ideas he was projected more as a god so instead of being a thinker he was a god today also in any you know Neo-Buddhist communities house you go you will find two pictures and Ambedkar put together so the moment you worship someone I don't think that person is any further taken because then he has reached to that epitome of worship and then there is nothing matters this is one probably the reason of he not being in the list of Indian global leaders even today yes very true I mean I really to agree with you know your explanation and there are some also you know the political dynamics that we cannot ignore yeah there I really want to quote here something which I was just recalling while you were giving your presentation Dr. Ambedkar was appointed as a professor of government law college church at Bombay and I'm also a product of the government law college and yeah and when when I used to see the name of Dr. B. R. Ambedkar as a as a principal of government law college he had tenure of two and half years right he was there and you know the strange kind of energy that we derive from it because once upon a time Dr. Ambedkar used to sit here and he was the one who was administering the entire administration of the college right so that is one thing but this is not the point that I'm making I'm making a point here about my friend okay he was from the community and we used to have debate and discussions all the time okay about social issues as a student 20, 21, 22 year old students so he was given an opportunity and he delivered such a wonderful lecture on what he feel about Dr. B. R. Ambedkar right and I really want to quote here he said that dear friends our ancestors used to live in jungles we were living in the jungles no one from our neighbors comes to see us that how the Nagas how the North's people are living there but the missionaries came all the way from the America to see how we are living upper class Hindus or upper class people never bothered to even to see how we are living right and this reality when we understand in the context of the Ambedkar right discourse this reality gets more visible and then somewhere I realize that how Dr. Ambedkar's discourse is very closer to the suffering that the entire North's tribal friends from the North's region have completely undergone even Dr. Ambedkar somewhere also quote that North's region is a special region why is this a special region because it is less Hinduized region because people are more liberal people more they are not yet contaminated he was comparing tribals from the mainland India and the tribals from the Northist right and that was the reason he was proposing a special system to protect their sovereignty the tribal sovereignty the traditional sovereignty of the tribal communities as well you know so this is just a wonderful picture that we actually get to see where everybody has something to take from Dr. Ambedkar but I want to ask you I want to ask you something little bit different Ambedkar had a good study on the international relations also right and many a times he tried to warn Pandit Nehruji about the intentions of the China right and now Ambedkar again in international relations also Ambedkar is very relevant now okay so would you like to comment anything on it Ambedkar's views on the international relations and how he perceived international relation and how come he became so correct about China's intention at that point of time I remember the very first you know conflict what he had in the Nehru's parliament Nehru's cabinet about you know the entire idea of inviting machineries from abroad and that was the time when all this Navaratna what we call today they were in process and when Nehru and the cabinets and they were all in favor of making it in India Ambedkar was always in favor of getting the machinery and that was the time when he was he was the one to maybe recommend the German machineries to get it in India for the first time and it was vehemently you know protested and objected again so maybe he was as I told you in the beginning of my talk that he was much ahead of his time and this was also one of the reasons why we are still not able to connect Ambedkar in the time which he lived actually so this is one of the reasons yes yes yes very very very true well dear friends do you have any question to ask to ma'am maybe a curiosity you want to share you are always welcome please go ahead yes yes interaction is always good ok it seems one question has come from our friend professor Dr. Avivadee she is our regular participant thank you ma'am for your question I will read it out for you Dr. Pithi I am reading it in the chat box I guess yes please check it out ma'am has stated that Dr. Pierre Ambedkar left Hinduism for Buddhism which is considered to be a religion of equality however some of the scholars would opine that even the other religion like Buddhism, Islam and Christianity is embedded with casteism which is not free from inequalities in a country like India would you like to have would like to have your comment very good question yes very good question unfortunately I absolutely agree to this that when we talk about Buddhism I think I have told about this thing in my talk that the converted Neo-Buddhist who accepted Buddhism who adopted Buddhism I mean some of them have adopted Christianity some of them have gone to Buddhism even there the hierarchy is still there I am putting a very real life picture of Mumbai I live in Mumbai and I give you my own experience you must have heard about Dr. Narendra Jadav our own Member of Parliament and very renowned politician Rajya Sabha member right now his brother Dr. Reddy Jadav was the municipal commissioner of BMC some years back he was also very vocal about Dalits and social reforms and I had one chance to interact with Dr. Jadav that time he said Preeti I live in Juhu being a commissioner and a retired commissioner I have my nice flat and nice place in Juhu but more than two or three occasions some domestic help and domestic workers have refused to come to my work why? because I have Dr. Ambedkar's photo and Buddha statue in my house and incidentally these housekeeping maids are coming from this so called upper class and they would not work in my flat even if I am ready to give them more money and Juhu is one of the cautious area in Mumbai and the rich people are staying there that means what I am trying to tell you ma'am what you have observed is absolutely right by just getting converted into some illusion the sense of equality is never achieved a very cream, very melancholic picture of the society but I do agree that this is not the permanent solution here I want to share my few plans see the thing is that somewhere my observation tells me that the Ambedkar's region specifically if I want to speak about Buddhism I will speak about Christianity and Islam also that Ambedkar's view of Buddhism right have not been properly grasped and understood by his own people that is point number one now when it comes to Islam and Christianity you have to refer to annulation of caste if I am not mistaken am I correct Dr. P.P. I would like to sorry would you like to still ask well I will just complete and then I will come back to you so there in the annulation of caste Dr. Ambedkar has clearly clearly observed that the we are subjected to the imitation the evill imitation so the system of the caste is also imitated by which is very much part of the Hindu tradition is imitated by the Christians also by the Muslims also you go to Jains they also have and Buddhism is altogether a different issue but also they also have that but if you look at their seminal text the seminal text Jesus Christ was talking about social freedom Jesus Christ was talking about social freedom freeing people from the social misery and discrimination from where this caste came in the theology of Christianity that is point number one so Dr. Ambedkar answers that in annulation of caste same with the Islam you go and read the Quranic text there is no mention of any kind of stratification any kind of caste that we understand the untouchables and non-untouchables there is no mention of that that higher Muslims and lower Muslims is something which came much later on so these are the things that we have to really understand especially in the context of how caste got percolated in those religions which basically never have any seminal theological substance for the nourishment of the caste system madam over to you what do you have to say yes sir what I would like to say is see what happened after almost 3 years of direct conflict and contemplations and discussions with his own people and all and reading about the world literature maybe these 3 years he has completely explored entire critis and discussions on the world literature because he basically wanted to accept adab one religion and unfortunately when he decided to go for the Buddhism and in just 3-4 months he passed away so his death very untimely death has left such a big void for his followers because many of them sir if you remember they were just blindly following and going to Nagpur and then following his own without having much discussion very true so he could not get any time to explain and substantiate or convince his own people about his decision then what happened in his absence Buddhism was done I mean conversion was done but everyone started having their own interpretation so what happens once you make Dr Ambedkar as the god and then you start blindly following whatever was told to you there was no further chance and hope to explore the rational behind this entire thing and this is one of the most unfortunate event of history in my opinion that at least 2 more years he would have got after the conversion of Buddhism would have been really different yes quite possible it is always said that if you want to destroy somebody make him or her a god we have a number of gods and goddesses around us but anyway any other question or comment from the participants sir you can share my email id with them and then I will always welcome their queries questions and I have some articles on Ambedkar sir you can share my articles with the audience sure sure and I am going to invite you I am going to invite you once again and please do visit us in Nagaland absolutely you guys are lucky to be in that exotic place be safe and stay safe oh yes yes yes ok Pritij now I think we should conclude this program thank you so much first of all for connecting with us all the way from Bombay and yes Dr. Ambedkar is a very complicated personality and it is very difficult to understand Dr. Ambedkar not only as a person but also as different identities that he carries it is very difficult thing but you tried your level best to decipher Dr. Ambedkar for all of us and we are really grateful for you grateful to you for that and also the participants thank you for coming and thank you for having patient you know this is the success of what we are doing now we are learning, we are unlearning and again we are learning with these words I conclude this thank you Pritij, thank you so much have a good day and have a great evening we will meet again