 Hello, good morning, everybody, and welcome to this ICSD session. We will be starting very shortly, but we're just going to allow for a few moments for people to start connecting. I see that people are slowly connecting. So again, welcome everyone to this ICSD session. It's morning here in Europe, but wherever you're joining from, welcome. Okay, great. Welcome everybody. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, no matter where you are in the world. We are so happy to welcome you to this ICSD session of our conference on sustainable development. An international conference that is being organized by DSDSN. My name is Andrea Eratz and I work at DSDSN as a network manager. And I'm very pleased to introduce you to this joint session co-organized by DSDSN, Arsinoe, and Inputus Projects. Feel free to say hello to us in the chat and tell us where you are joining from. All of us are joining from different locations. So it is so wonderful to organize this in this hybrid mode. Our Arsinoe and Inputus Projects are the two EU Green Deal sister projects that are focusing on adaptation to climate change that is being done through systemic solutions and innovations for climate resilient regions. So the whole idea of our session today is that sustainable development projects and programs can no longer revolve around the success of a single piece of technology, or a single approach. It is about promoting some deeper transformation, some more comprehensive approaches about bringing different stakeholders together and actively promoting human engagement, interdisciplinarity, learning by doing. So this is the approach that is being taken by the Inputus, the Arsinoe Project, but also the Fable program on food and land systems. And we are so happy to be working on all of these with our partners throughout Europe, throughout the world to support the EU climate change adaptation strategy. So we're very pleased to be here with you. I already said, feel free to say hello in the chat but also, as we go on please feel free to use the Q&A function to raise any questions and we'll try to answer them. With us here today, we have Professor Gunther Paoli, who is an economist, an entrepreneur, and you may have heard of his most famous book called The Blue Economy. He will be giving us a introductory speech, which is a recorded video. In that video, you will see that he will be referring to some slides, but for some technical issues, we will not be showing them simultaneously, however, we will be sharing his presentation in the chat so you will be able to follow that. And after his speech, we will be switching to a moderated session. Our session will be moderated by Laura Dernford from the European Science Communication Institute. And on the panel, we will have Chrissy Laspidou from the University of the Sally in Greece and from the Arsinoe project. Dr. Martin Drew's senior researcher from the Technical University of Denmark. Dr. Aline Monnier, a scientific director from the Fable Consortium, as well as Dr. Andrea Marinoni, associate professor at the Arctic University of Norway, and also speaking on behalf of the impetus project. So that's all from me for the moment. Let's get us all started. Welcome again, everybody, and enjoy this session. We will now be sharing the video from Professor Gunther Pauly. It is a special privilege to be able to address you at the opening of this International Conference on Sustainable Development. I apologize that due to urgent travel, I am now in Colombia, and your 9 o'clock in the morning is unfortunately my 4 o'clock in the morning. So therefore, I am pre-recording this message to you. And under the eyes of the elephant behind me, let us all be very clear, we can't do more of the same. The challenge that we are facing today is very clearly that with all the great efforts of so many people, with the thousands of initiatives undertaken by millions of people, we have not been able to turn statistics around. The statistics that are coming at us, and the experiences we have lived through with the huge environmental disasters ranging from the forest fires to the heat waves to the flooding, tells us very clearly that it is time to have a fundamental shift in our approach. Doing less bad and promising to be good by 2030 or 2050 just will not do it. We have to change our approach, be much more ambitious, and therefore I am urging everyone to stop analyzing, to stop debating and to focus on the doing. And when you are doing, let us be very clear that we need a visionary approach. Those who see the invisible will be able to do the possible. If we are only going to do where everyone is agreeing on, then we will never have the breakthroughs that we require in order to steer our societies and our businesses towards sustainability. Here I am showing you a flower, the fissile. In Cardo in Italian, Le Chardon in French, we are showing a distal because to me it is very much the symbol of the kind of transformation we need. The fissile has always been considered as a weed, something that is of no use. And actually in many countries around the world, you have the obligation to destroy the fissiles with glyphosates, with herbicides. Ladies and gentlemen, today, Novamont, the company I chair, has developed a biochemistry that allows us to use the fissile, which is available on 20 million hectares around the Mediterranean, to use the flower that does not need any pesticide, herbicide, fertilizers, seed control, GMO, whatever the mother in agriculture is prescribing. And it only needs to be harvested. It is a perennial plant that will keep on growing for seven years, keep on expanding its roots throughout the soil and give us a flower with an extraordinary oil. Ladies and gentlemen, let us demystify plastics. It is an oil that with pressure and temperature is converted into an acid, and then you need a sugar, and the sugar is fermented into an alcohol. When you have an alcohol and an acid, you have a monomer. When you have monomers, you can make polymers. Ladies and gentlemen, we can produce today thousands of tons, hundreds of thousands of tons of biodegradable plastics, provided we use the resources that nature is providing to us, like the fissile. 20 million hectares will generate thousands of jobs and eliminate this obsession with a petrochemical plastic that is only perhaps degrading in the soil and never degrading in the sea, because the bacteria that are degrading in the soil simply do not exist in the sea. No university today is teaching chemical engineers to graduate with a degree capable of designing plastics that will degrade in the soil, in the sun and in the sea. We need to be able to go beyond what we know today, but it's not only the production of the plastics using bio-resources that are abundantly available that we need to focus on. The next slide you see, the drama of all petrochemical facilities. Here in Portatores, in Sardinia, the first cracker in 1962 built in order to turn the petroleum into a broad range of useful products. Those facilities 50 years later are a burden to society. They are characterized by heavy pollution and the impossibility to compete. Now we have two options. We close it all down and dismantle it, or we use the human intelligence to imagine how to convert a petrochemical facility into a biochemistry facility, and this has been done. Now once you are producing bioplastics, you can start deriving a broad range of products that will not only use and give value to the vessel and give an impulse to the local economy by converting those old petrochemical facilities in production centers of value, at the same time we can produce products like the diaper. Here you see a diaper, which is one of the products of modernity, but should we have diapers that are simply sent to the landfill or to the incinerator, or should we have diapers as you see here in the picture that will provide us the black soil, the earth that we need. So the thistle combined with human experiments, thanks to these bioplastics, turns back into a soil, but a soil in itself is no purpose. The soil in the end of the day is to grow something. Ladies and gentlemen, the apples we are eating today only have 5 or 10% of the nutrients the apples used to have 50 years ago, because we have depleted our soil. We need to regenerate the soil and therefore you need to have the business model that takes you from the resources that the earth is providing to replenishing those resources while generating value added and taking care of the problems of the past. The business model is not to have just biodegradable plastics. The business model, the societal regeneration model is to have apples that are full of nutrition. It is impossible to talk today about sustainable development without discussing energy. Here I'm leaving you in the closing of this short introduction with the image of Porima. Porima is the experimental boat that already in 2010, 2012, over two years demonstrated one can go around the world with solar energy only. Afterwards the boat was expanded with hydrogen produced from sea water, an intelligent kite capturing wind at 200-300 meters altitude. And instead of a boat zig-zacking against the wind, this boat is going straight because it's the kite that is doing the zig-zack. That alone is offering us a 30% improvement in energy performance. The maritime sector is the most polluting sector we know and nothing serious is being done that gives us a perspective that is now another perspective in 2050. Porima is the goddess of the future in Roman mythology. Porima is the goddess who will give us the view, the vision and the passion to really change reality around us. I imagine and I'm dedicated to not have one boat going again around the world. I am passionate and enthused to be able to create three boats, ten boats, a hundred boats and why not through a collaborative effort worldwide, a thousand boats. Under the watchful eye of the element behind me, let us all commit to stop talking and to focus on doing. And doing what we don't know and accept that unless we take the risks, we cannot do the magic of steering our societies towards sustainability and secure we can correct the errors of the past by regenerating this grand ecosystem with its billion years of experience. Have a good panel discussion. Thanks for the invite. Thank you very much to Gunther Paoli, economist and entrepreneur for providing us with that very interesting video. It's a pity he can't join the panel discussion, but I'm sure the panellists that we do have available today will make a great job of contributing their thoughts about what he said, as well as their answers to the questions that I'm going to put to them in just a moment. So thank you to all of you. Chrissy Laspidou, unfortunately, can also not be with us and has provided some answers to the questions that I'm going to ask in video format as well. So we are going to hear from her thankfully. So just coming to what we've just heard. There were some examples in that talk from Professor Paoli of specific technologies of specific developments. But also, the example really of how they can interconnect to form a whole sort of system of solutions that support each other and really lead to a lot of value being created along each step of that chain, which is really the fundamental principle that he described in his book, The Blue Economy, I think around 10 years ago. So drawing on your own areas of expertise and experience and work, maybe you could give us your thoughts, why do we need this kind of systems thinking the big picture and the interdisciplinary approach, if we're going to be able to tackle climate change in a sustainable way. Let's start with Chrissy's contribution on the video, please. Okay, maybe we need to get that lined up in which case. Would you mind Elina if we get your thoughts on this first of all and then we can come back to Chrissy's video at the end if we if we if we still need to. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much, Laura. So indeed, I think that this introductory presentation from Dr. Paoli is a really good starter also for us. So I think that maybe let's take from my position the example of the food and land. And I think that indeed the previous presentation already showed a few examples from land also based on land that could be used to really implement these changes which are needed. So let's let's take this example of using land and the natural resources to replace some of the products which are currently done in an understandable way. So the example of the fissile was taken previously, and also the example of 20 million hectares that could be used to do that. And indeed, like sometimes it's really, I think a good idea and I, I'm sure that the consequences of that have been taken into account but in many places before for example there has been this case of biofuels policies and and and the fact that it would be so great to substitute oil by biofuels. And here so we saw that if we don't take a system approach, we can really have some big big problems because currently land is used for something in most of the place around the world. So it needs to grow food or it is also to just let biodiversity biodiversity thrive, which is also quite important or trees to be to carbon and to store carbon for now and for future generations so they are very important trade when we're talking about land. And if we don't take that into account from the start, then we went the issue that we had for biofuels for examples, with government acting, which is great, putting targets mandatory targets for governments to do that which is the way to do it. But then after going backward, and then this is terrible for the business because then you start to invest but then you have to go back. So I think this is one concrete example where I think the systemic view is very important and land is really at so many tradeoffs, which really that's key for my domain. Thank you. Thank you. So, maybe next we can hear from Martin Drew's, excuse me. So, Martin, you're involved in various areas of interdisciplinary work, and excuse me, co chairing the collaborative program on high impact events and climate change of the European Climate Research Alliance, as well as being an advisor on the European climate risk assessment. Do you feel that there's enough joined up thinking amongst all the various bodies that are working in this area. And what evidence do you see or examples could you give us from from your experience of this interdisciplinary approach and big picture thinking that is so critical. Thank you so much. I think the I see a lot of potential, but I have to say I also see a lot of silos still. I mean if you if you think about it. There's been a lot of research going on in this area as as we also just heard from the from our keynote speaker here and given the fact that that there's been so much massive research it's really amazing that there's a lot about it and and I'm in, as you say I'm very much involved in, in sort of climate extremes, extremes kind of research, but also from sort of an interdisciplinary perspective, just the fact that for example, adaptation to climate change and mitigation as we just heard is generally perceived in a policy level at a practical level at a scalable level as two different silos is sort of to me, a danger. If you think about it. I mean, it's, I mean, we have, we heard also from the Alina moment ago about the about the necessity to really think about land use. And then if you think about how we defend ourselves against the most extreme that are that are already here. I mean, land use is one of the most precious and efficient types of sort of adaptation in many different ways. But land use. I mean, is also, I mean land is necessary for so many other things. So when do you when do you have to compromise what is the right decision to make. I mean, you can model, you can use science you can use all different kind of things but at the end of the day. It's only the interplay between the different people between different disciplines between the different priorities that you actually get to a good point. I mean, an example from the from from the talk, for example, why. We saw this plant that wasn't that that was located next to it and building next to the sea. Well, that's a that's probably for a very good reason there's cooling water there's other things and it's sort of accessibility, but it also makes it susceptible to climate change to storms to actually see the rise. So, I mean, did they think about that when they actually built it, or when they are rebuilding it. And that's that's a that's a that's a that's a very good question. I've experienced in tons of examples of my of my of my own work of my own resource of my interactions with stakeholders with policy makers that know that was not sort of intention. In fact, not not very long time ago I was involved in a project in that was actually in Serbia where they wanted to make a new sustainable wastewater treatment plant. And they did everything right. They did all the, they factored in all the stakeholders they factored in everything. The only thing they they missed and failed was the fact that they built, they plan to build this plant in the most flood prone area. So that was very good. So you do all the steps, but you forget one part. And that to me speaks volumes about how you actually need to factor in also those things you don't normally factor in, like risks, but also potential. So I think this is a, and I mean I liked just another example from from the talk. I really liked the sort of the image of the fissile, because the fissile is really very resilient plant. So that might actually be a very good place to go back to a lean's comment also that I mean, why is a fissile interesting. I mean, as, as, as, as said, the fissile is something we tend to think of as a weed, but it's actually a resource. And it's, it's, it's one of those resources that will stick around for a long time after the temperature went up by 32 degrees if we allowed to do that, because it's just so resilient it can take anything all the punishment that that sort of climate change that it give it in the, in the, in the short term, and it's still here it still contributes to the added this sort of mitigation kind of things and to, to start ensuring that we have a sustainable supply of the resources that we can't do without. So I think this is that that was sort of a few examples from me. Thank you so much. So, yes, just to pick up on a couple of the things you said you talk about the fissile being a nice example of resilience. And you also talked about the interplay between people and the science. And other conversations outside this event, Professor Pauli has talked about resilience basically being down to how do you react to a surprise or a change in circumstances. And the point about having the interplay between people and the data and these kinds of things is so that we can be more resilient. And so this is something Andrea Marinoni that I would like to just bring you in on, because this is something that the impetus project is very much taking into account isn't it combining. If you like societal data with the more traditional kinds of data that we would use for climate research, can you maybe just very briefly explain that and how this touches on this whole area of the big picture in the disciplinary approach. Yeah, first of all, thank you very much for inviting me and good morning to everyone. Basically, the end of the idea underneath here that rely on all our approach from it is relies on is that basically climate change, adaptation and mitigation that must not be to different siloes as Martin was saying. It's actually a problem that for which solutions to find a way to actually make one plus one, more than two, and even more than three sometimes. And so, to some extent, our, our approach in impetus on one side is focused in providing better informed decision making processes for all the sectors are involved in in the society or either industry research communities, environmental or eventually also administration and government. This, this takes advantage of the fact that sensors are all around us, and so we can gather data on all all different phenomena and events that that characterize our everyday life. So, by, by using artificial intelligence and modern modern machine learning methods, our ambition will be to extract the most reliable information out of all this data. So, to, to make the administration and the decision makers in the best place to perform any possible adaptation and mitigation measures that could be, could be the best for a specific region. The point is that the data analysis by itself will not make the magic in the sense that to make, to make these measures and policies be effective for, for, to address climate change effects. So, what we have to do is to involve the, the stakeholders, the local communities, the local administrations, so that make them engage with, with, with, with the creation of their adaptation measures and mitigation policies, so that it will be possible to actually form what, what in impetus with all the co-creation process of, of these portfolios of solutions that could lead to the creation of adaptation pathways for possible, all the different biographical regions for our project in Europe, but that could be a set of solutions that could be eventually also scaled up to, to other, other regions in a sort of federated manner. Thank you, Andrea. So, yeah, talking about decision making and those kinds of processes that need to happen. I think arguably we're up against a bit of a challenge because political systems, project funding cycles, making profits in businesses, they all tend to have a short term cycle, a short term view just a few years at most. Do you see this as a barrier to sustainability and climate change solutions? And how could we maybe encourage a longer term viewpoint? This is going to be a question for all of you, but if Chrissie's video is ready to play, I think I'd like to hear her answer to this one first. Yeah, the duration, this limited duration of terms, political terms, you know, of businesses, project fundings, all this is definitely, is definitely something that hinders results because people don't have this long term effect in front of them. So this is where we again need to focus on. We need now to establish the mechanisms, the ministries collaborating with each other. The institutions that will address climate change as a whole and that will address, you know, how to achieve the SDGs. A lot of this cross sectoral collaborations are needed in order to be able to have good results and to overcome this short term. It's obvious that politicians will be elected for a limited amount of time. We can't change that. And we don't want to change that. What we want to do is to establish this, the institutions and the process that will be able to support the solutions in the ideas long term and will have a strategic planning that will span across political systems and political leaders and figures. We can't be dependent on that. This also puts more pressure on what needs to be done, how we need to think outside the box and redesign the whole process. Thank you Chrissy. Alina, what would you like to say on this point? Thank you. I would like to say that most of the decision makers need to be convinced that the longer term of thinking long term is also at their benefit. So, and I think that in the case of climate change, I think it has to be really clear to them that climate change now and the long term impacts of climate change will have an impact on their business. So they have to think this longer term. They have to think about this potential long term effects if they want to be here in 20 years or 30 years from now. And if they want to have the competitive advantage in 20 years. So, for policy makers, it might be a bit more complicated because maybe their career might be shorter than that. But I still hope that they can think that they can drive momentum and leave a country in a good place by having this longer term and view. And I think that this is what is needed really to convince them about the need and their benefits to have it. Thank you. What about the point about project funding cycles? Is that something Andrea or Martin that one of you might want to come back to? Well, I can take a stab at that. I mean, it's definitely so that I mean project funding in a sense of course holds things back, but it's also a matter of what projects are we talking about? Are we talking about research projects? Are we talking about, as was already said in the keynote, I mean in doing, I mean we can research a lot of things, but it's also about transforming the solutions that we have into real pathways as mentioned in this session here. I mean, because I think in terms of some of the solutions will take a long time. I mean, Aline knows exactly what I'm talking about. If you want to change land use and land use patterns and implement things at a really decisive scale, it takes time. Those sort of projects are not over in two, three years. They demand commitment. But if the commitment was there, as already mentioned by both Chrissie and by Aline, then I would say the sky is the limit. But it's definitely at the moment it is the project funding not just in research, but also is really holding back stuff. I mean, I don't know how that would be changed. I mean, perhaps I would say that the European Union has done one thing with its upcoming senior program where they try to coordinate more than visiting the old days. Like for example, in this case, as you know, empathos and transfer mar and their CSA action called the resilience are all sort of formed in a way that they work together. You know, not just as for independent projects that sort of do the same thing, but they actually, they should work together. In fact, the entire portfolio projects are more coordinated than they've ever been. And that means that the project suddenly become much more impactful than otherwise. That's one way that you bring it out. I mean, I don't know if it's, as we say, it's probably completely impossible to imagine until we sell the narrative that actually Aline is talking about that we will have 10 year projects. But at least it's a it's a first and for me encouraging start that people starting to coordinate things in a much better way because it means more impact and that you can do more things than we could in previous project funding programs. Thank you. Yeah, I'm talking about the the research side of it. Somebody in the audience has asked the question, tying this back to what Gunter Bowley said, which was he said we need to change our approach. So the question from the audience, what does this actually mean in practice, for example, in research, if we're going to stop analyzing and start doing how could people working in academic practice actually translate that into their work. Andrea Marinoni, you actually work in research in academia. How would you respond to this question? I think that this is a very nice question also because it's, it's really very long on the end as we used to say in a sense that taking out activities from from the pure academic world is is pretty tricky in the sense that we experience when when trying to reach out to communities rather than industrial partners rather than administration that there is still some gaps in terms of the operational needs that have to be addressed in order to make all the research and the scientific studies that we make and our universities are available and able to address all the issues that are actually affecting everyday life. So the point is engagement is tricky, but and I resonate with all the discussion that has come before me in the sense that having a short term project is quite tricky because people don't see that much of an effect or some of these longer term climate change effects on their life and establishing longer term projects or initiatives might be tricky from a policymaker perspective, but I think at that point that that's one of the one of the angles where the diversity and the interdisciplinary approach that has to be taken that is a necessity for climate change adaptation mitigation might might make a difference in the sense that this sort of need this sort of requirements should come from from the communities from industries and from the education sector themselves. So for instance, what we what we can do is to try to change the climate climate mindset for for communities and also for younger generations. For instance, at the university establishing new new university courses, rather than involving arts and communities in order to to to perform initiatives that are that could phrase research activities in terms of cultural or artistic forms that that could make the communities engage more with the problems that we are addressing from a from a scientific community perspective, rather than working with science road shows at the community centers or or eventually also educational games that could help in this respect. Now, there is a big little bit of a problem here. This requires effort in a sense that everybody has to step out of their comfort zone and try to reach out to other to other sectors and that might not be might not be easy but the problem, the point is that this big challenge that could show up as a big mountain of problems in front of us is also motivation for us to try to climb up and find a solution for this because after this big challenge there is a big opportunity for all of us in different sectors of our society. Thanks, Andrea. Yeah, you very nicely anticipated one of the things that I wanted to ask you all about which is about diversity and and how that's why is it necessary and how to encourage it if it's necessary. Alina, I think this is something that maybe you would like to begin the comments on. Thank you, but let me react a bit to your previous questions before because I cannot resist to disagree with Dr. Polly. I think that indeed it's urgent to act but some people need to act some other people need to analyze and keep analyzing you know, I think that we provided two examples before with Martin that really I think show that needs to continue analyzing in this context of deep uncertainty is one on for example biofuel policy second is maybe where to build a plant. And of course we need to build plants which are for circular economy and so on we probably need to use more land for bioeconomy or so. Without analysis, you really risk to lock yourself into not sustainable not profitable solutions that will last for long time. So please scientists at least continue analyzing continue do your job to think about it and to provide policymakers with good analysis and of course maybe it's not waiting 10 years to get the perfect analysis done to provide policy makers and working closely together, more in a learning by doing together, kind of in a much more interactive way, but I really urge people to keep an eye. So that's, that's what I think I think that Martin or somebody you wanted to quickly react to that point so I don't know if he wants to do it now and, and we take to the diversity question afterwards. Sure, but maybe if you could keep it quick. Thanks. Yes, I wanted to, I can certainly do I mean I do not disagree disagree with you at all but I think one of the things is one of the things that I think the person asking the question was, was talking about is, I think it's it's also a matter of courage, because I think it's a matter of being able to not just analyze but also be part of the process. And I think it's difficult for scientists sometimes because it means that you will get your hands dirty. You're no longer the sort of neutral observer, you become part of it. And I know one of the one of the things that I'd like to highlight that very briefly. And I do that the scenery project is essentially built around a systems innovation approach. So it said it's a research and innovation project in the sense that it builds on on the systems innovation approach where you basically sit down with people and really get your hands dirty, and they are involved, and we are sitting and and basically you go back until your PhD students well, you have to go to this in the city or this in this community and sit down with them for X number of months and actually structure and think about your PhD research, in terms of the real life challenges, whether they are big or small, instead of just thinking, Okay, I need to write a really fancy publication. We need to actually solve a problem. And I think that that is difficult. And I think we work with this every day. And not, it's not for everybody. But some people are better at analyzing and some people are better at getting their hands their hands their hands dirty. But I think we need to definitely push more people into that direction, where we are participants, rather than just analysts, but that use, but analysts are useful too. Yes, thank you. Sorry to interrupt. So, which brings us back to the point that diversity is needed, of course, because different people bring different skills and knowledge and areas of interest. So, coming back to the question of diversity, perhaps actually, we could just play in Chrissie's response to this, if, if her video is lined up ready to go. So, diversity, gender diversity, people diversity, age, race, we definitely need to be diverse and in order to achieve our goals, we definitely need to include everyone. And this is part of the SDGs is part of what our goals should be indigenous people marginalized people. Those are the ones sometimes that are affected the most by climate crisis so we definitely need to bring them on board and include them. Again, this is something that takes a lot of effort to change minds to go beyond the conservative thinking that male representations, for example, are sufficient and young people need to be taken into account. And we need to make new leaders. I think this is again a matter of education. It's again a matter of us as a scientist communicating correctly this information and passing the messages to make it really part of a conscious of reality, the diversity. And we have the policies we have the process that need to be enforced, and the European Commission and other entities are really helping in that by bringing out, you know, gender and diversity, biodiversity. What, what can I say, biodiversity collapse is really one of the biggest threats of our century, and it is something that I definitely need that needs a lot of work. People see running out energy. They see food, I mean, all these resources are very tangible and they see them biodiversity. They cannot see so much so we again have a mission here to convince to enforce metrics to to show how it is degrading and to explain what it means. It is really critical that we do this because biodiversity, as you all know, is a huge part of who we are now and maybe COVID COVID is related to the biodiversity collapse, the fact that we are, we have these new invasive species, and all that discussion so it is. This needs to become conscious, we need education, we need initiatives to convince people and we need the metrics to scientifically measure in an easy, easy way to communicate to regional and national leaders. Thank you, Chrissie. Yeah, so metrics that comes back to the point you're making also about measuring and analyzing things and and Chrissie is also talking about the need to communicate more clearly. Maybe I can connect that thought then back to the question about the value of things that we're talking about and a question from the audience again about, you know, in business, what are the alternatives to making a profit? What role does value play here and tying that to what Chrissie is raising in terms of biodiversity and the value she's hinting at there in biodiversity. How can we encourage this notion that these things are important so that people are more willing to get involved in in a change that needs to happen. Alina, I tried coming to you first last time, maybe I can come back to you first again now. Thank you very much. So indeed, I think that this diversity issue is very important because I think that people take decisions only when they're really convinced about them or some if they act really with all their energy they need to be convinced. And so it's very important to connect this broad message also for the SDGs or for the Paris Agreement and so on, with what people can experience in their kind of real life with their own constraints. So if the message is too broad and too general and doesn't connect to what they experience, then we are losing them. They cannot act, they don't know where to start, they don't know why. So I think that having an approach which is probably more decentralized also in terms of the global message and so on is more and it's quite important. Also, in terms of science, so for example with Fable what we try to do now is really to use this, this network so that the pathways for the long term pathways can be built by people in their countries right not only by the global modellers and who have a view about how the world should develop but that they can decide on what is important, what are their dietary shifts they can do, should do, and so on and try to progress in DC also these impacts at the global level so then they can be convinced with several iterations that okay the actions that they take have an impact at the global level and also the actions that they have an impact on their pathways and I think that by that trying to reconcile what are their preferences because we are diverse world and it should remain like that, but also we have only one world, one planet at the end it has to come together to preserve this planet. Thanks Alina and yeah I mean basically what the conversations been doing increasingly is sort of putting together the role for the science, the data, the data modeling, the technology and the need to involve people at various levels in society and I think that second need has been increasingly recognized and is now seen as a key area of the work as we've been hearing. So perhaps just very quickly I could ask all three of you to maybe even give us some very specific way in which your projects or your organizations are working towards that and what are the challenges and opportunities that you see in that work. Martin, how about we start with you this time. Okay well I can I can make it very quick well I mean we are, I mean I'm from the technical University of Denmark I'm also a happy member of the of the scenery project and and many international boards and stuff like that and I think one of the, one of the overall things is that there is, I think the challenge is that sometimes you need to as was already mentioned also in the chat is that is the thinking. I mean I think there is a challenge in getting to the point where actually Aline is sort of highlighting that where we all realize that we're in the same boat. And that is one way to do it and I mean one of the, in Denmark here where I come from one of my colleagues usually talk about funding events whenever you have a big natural disaster. And at the global level, that's, I mean that works very much at the local level because people sort of get together I mean just look at what happened during the COVID that was a global funding event if you like. But that's also one, the first example of this so what what my organization is doing of course is to try to figure out how we go beyond that and sort of communication, communication and education isn't it is insanely important. But also again, making, making these things, you know, push these things into policies, somehow putting them into targets and policies. And you do that by working with with the policy makers and with with the education at school level. I mean, at all levels to try and sort of push and share the information that we that we that we have. And, and, and I mean that's, and, and again, and also responding to one of the comments in the, in the Q&A just just here in the end. I mean, I think indigenous peoples knowledge are just local peoples knowledge I mean, sort of broadly all the knowledge that we have, we have making thing making use of this is actually a very big part of it. I mean, if you look at the reindeer herders in the northern part of Sweden and Norway, which we, which, which, which, which I talked to often. I mean, they have so much information about what is actually going on up there, and how one could adapt to it that that that needs to be heard, because they have already sometimes solved some of the some of the problems in terms of making sustainable solutions. That by going in by going nature based by working with nature. That sort of takes us a long time. It doesn't have to be technology all of it. Thanks Martin. It's funny you should mention Norway because although Andrea is Italian he's actually based in Norway. Maybe, Andrea, you can add some other examples of this or from other parts of your work as a specialist maybe in satellite data, working with satellite data for climate research. I will try to rephrase an old joke what happens in Norway doesn't stay in Norway, or what happens in the Arctic doesn't stay in the Arctic. In the sense that there are several, several effects of climate change that of course affect the area. This applies to all the areas in Europe and in the world and in the Atlantic. I could have some repercussions also on other areas far away from here or some tropical tropical areas in the world. I think of what has been changing in terms of oceanographic variables, all these global warming that provided an increase of temperature led to have these issues in terms of sea level rise that are affecting all the urban water infrastructures in northern Norway rather than affecting the occurrence of disaster events such as landslides or snow avalanches even more. And reconnecting to what has been said and to what also Professor Pauli said in inspiring introduction, there is actually a sort of marine version of the example that he made. I think that sea weed has been always found to be a big issue for all the fishermen and the people involved in the aquaculture industry, especially here in northern Norway. Now in academia and in the university but also taking advantage of the richness that the diversity of the different sectors might bring, there are several projects that are focusing on the implementation of nature-based solutions to address this problem. So this led to tests of using sea weed as raw feed material for the fishes that are in the aquaculture sites. This turned out to be a very good example for how sustainable solutions can come from the tradition and from the nature itself. But it also turned out to be also a nice example of how to engage people in the sense that this was a big problem that fishermen had and with academic studies it was possible to provide them with some solutions that were addressing their everyday issues also helping from an economic perspective. In that respect, the use of remote sensing and part of the Earth Observation Group at the university has provided a lot of added value in that respect and in that respect the policies provided by the European Commission in the open data policies for all remote sensing data that are acquired through the Copernicus program provided a big step in that direction. Thanks Andrea. We're actually very close to the end of the session. There is one last thing I would like to ask and I think we only really have time for Chrissy's response but having seen the video I know that it's a good way to end the session I think. So I think the question really is how to ensure a positive focus in these communications in engaging with various diverse stakeholders in the work that needs to happen. And what can what can we do about it so last word to Chrissy please. Yeah, this is another one of those questions that I like to answer. So, we really need to focus on communication. And as I, as I age and as I mature through this process, myself as a, as a professor, I see that our emphasis really, I mean, now my budgets are much larger, the budgets that go towards communication. My first communication is so so so important at the end of the day. It is not what we do in a lab or among a group of experts. It is what we bring outside. So we need to be innovative. Our innovation should not just stop at sensors and other technologies and computers. Our innovation should focus on becoming more easily communicable with the public on bringing new tools. We've been trying in our product in Arsinoe, we're planning virtual reality experiments that will show people what what the world that we imagine looks like. So all these, all these tools should be used digital twins that can show people on the screen. Why things are progressing the way they are, what the data look like information, all this needs to be included in our tools and need to be central in our, in our designs. We do get smarter through artificial intelligence through our technologies, but we need to show that they communicated with the people in an innovative way that will actually attract their attention and will pass the right messages to the right people. And step away, of course, of fear based communication. Thanks Chrissie. Thank you very much to all of the panelists from me, and I'd like to just very briefly hand you back to Andrea to end the session. Thank you everybody for taking part and for the audience participation to Excellent and I would like to thank you Laura for navigating us through this session so so peacefully. We, we hope that you will like this session and thank you all for for joining thank you. Again, on my behalf to all the panelists. This is the 10th version of the ICSD. It is 10 years that as this in this and exists. So we're more than glad to welcome you with some record numbers today in this virtual room we were 150. So we encourage you to explore the program of the ICSD to attend other sessions as well. Right after this one there are three parallel sessions one on SDG localization the other one on gender in the SDG implementation, and another one on carbon sinks in construction and transportation industry. You may also know as the SN is an academic network so if you are an academic, you may want to engage with as the SN and have your university or your knowledge institution become a member of as the SN we are already over 1600 around the world so feel free to explore our website and reach out to join us. And with that, I would like to thank you all again and see you next time. Thank you. Thank you very much for a fantastic session. Thank you.