 Hello and welcome to the Noise Creators podcast. I am your host, Jesse Cannon. And today I'm here with the amazing Jamie Colletta. She runs Know Your Buds, a Los Angeles based creative marketing company as part of the management company, Better Artists. She's worked with some amazing artists, one of which we discussed heavily on a previous episode, which is Barty's Strange. And if you haven't watched that podcast episode, I hope you do because you hear about a ton of cool strategies she did to break him. And he's gone into very, very big things. But that's not it. She's also worked with an impressive roster that includes Pup, The Wonder Years, Foxing, Jeff Rosenstock, OsoOso, and literally, sometimes we say a ton more, it really is a ton more. Jamie's been around forever. She used to be at the record label Side One Dummy. And she really, really knows her shit as you're about to see. We get into tons of cool topics on marketing and how to see yourself as an artist. And she has really wise advice that I don't think you'll hear anywhere else. I highly suggest you follow Jamie as she's always doing cool stuff and her links are in the bio. And here's the episode. So Jamie, you're one of those people that you do like so many things. Can you like tell us how you would tell somebody who has no clue about music, what you do? I feel like I connect people. I figure out ways to whether I'm putting, you know, two people together to collaborate on something or I am telling someone's story to someone else. I feel like I'm really just here making connections and taking music and sharing it with people and all kinds of people. So it's like generally that's my descriptor for like the parents and stuff. Nice. But so since I know the great work you do, I know it's a lot more than connections. So maybe I'm going to start with that. You're behind or a part of, I don't like to say behind because that people get the wrong idea. You're a part of lots of cool marketing things with these groups. You do really interesting things. I think so many groups just, you know, they put out a song, they put out a video. You actually do cool things. How does that come into being? I feel like I sort of just approach every campaign that I can with like, I literally just use like a 70, 30 kind of model, right? Where I'm like, okay, 70, if almost all of the campaign is by the book, what they tell us to do, sort of like best practice type stuff, checking off every box, well, then I have a little bit of wiggle room afterwards to do something crazy. And no matter what, I can take a risk and still fall back on a good campaign because I did everything I was supposed to. So I feel like for me, I have the most fun when I'm allowed to go a little crazy. And when people, when the artists I work with really resonate with that part of me and that kind of creativity, and we're able to kind of just like communicate and get to know each other in a way that I don't get with every record. And it really requires all of that, that kind of like open mindedness, that collaboration, but also knowing that even if this crazy thing we're trying doesn't work, we're still good, you know, we've got all the traditional stuff checked off so that we can have a little fun and see what happens. And this speaks to something interesting because I find when I talk to bads, they go, why would I do something fucking crazy? That doesn't work. That doesn't get any fans. And then there's the other side of it where like people only want to do the crazy thing and they think that's the only thing that gets fans. Yeah. I mean, it's got to be a balance, right? Like you have to balance this stuff. Like, and even when you do it exactly by the book, it's just not going to work. You could literally listen to an episode of this podcast, write everything down and try, and it still could not work. Like there are just so many variables in every single situation, but it's never all one thing or all one of the other. It's totally about balance and being able to adapt and kind of lean in whichever direction things seem to be moving and best, you know, and just really roll with the punches of being out there and grinding and trying to get your music heard because it's not always going to be super easy and it's not always going to be one clear cut path. So I don't know. I like that. So let's talk about some of the crazy marketing ideas you've done over the years. Tell us the audience some stories of some things you've done that have gotten some bands some attention. I suppose I probably should have thought about this before now, but You know, I refuse to write questions before these because I only, my rule for myself now is I only interview people where I'll be curious about what they do and have questions and want to learn. But then that's the other side of it is that I can't help you out here because I'm also curious, but I know you did some really cool stuff with the Wonder Years. Yeah. Well, you know, it's funny is like it's we we talk about it like at these crazy ideas, but sometimes it's not even that crazy. You know, it's like it's just like thinking about the way you're telling your story and building your universe and just thinking about it in different ways. So sometimes it is truly definitively crazy. Like with Roswell kid, we sent out little potatoes in the mail for no reason other than there was a website you could do that from and we wrote, you know, like we sent them to Spotify, Apple, the Rolling Stone office. We sent them everywhere just being like, bet you've never gotten this kind of a pitch before like the new Roswell kid record comes out whenever. And I don't know if some of those people ever even looked at it or if it even made its way out of the mailroom. But I know that some people did and people talk about it. And it's like that work that was truly crazy. And it got people talking online like, is this one what in the world? Like this is so weird. It got people paying attention to the overall like folklore of that band that we were building. And other times it's, you know, Wonder Years and bands like that, it doesn't have that same silly tone. It always has to kind of match the tone and the brand of what you're working with. So it's anything from just like thinking of just like, sometimes I even ask my artists like, what colors would you use to describe your music? What emojis would you use? What words would you use? Like try to kind of help artists build that universe around stuff. And if it's crazy and fun, and you can get a little silly with it, that's great. But sometimes it's just like kind of helping them expand their world out a little bit more in different ways. I love this emoji thing. You know, when I was single, it used to be my date thing would be like, this would be like how I could gauge if I was like getting going to go on a date with somebody that it was a little too crazy. And so I'm like, how about we both show each other our top five emojis in our phone? So I'm like, show me your frequent you used, I'll show you mine that we could see if this is going to work or not. So I like the idea. Yeah, I feel like it helps me because it's like, I can tell a lot about people by that. But I think it also gets them thinking about their vision and their aesthetic a little bit. And that can be helpful in just like 100 million different ways. So it's just cool to kind of like, I think it's just fun. And then we know, you know, whenever we post about it on social, we'll always use those emojis, you know, we try to keep the brand strong and help them out in that sense. But it just gets some of these, I worked with a lot of bands at that like very beginning stage. So it just gets them thinking about that kind of stuff early, which I think is super important. No, that's one of the things I think is really respectable about you is that like, I always say it's like, I'm not that interested in the people who like pick up an artist that already has a half a million followers on Spotify that they keep make a big yes, that's hard. But it's the real hardest thing is the zero to 10,000 fans is the thing I always say. Talk to me about a little bit about what you try to instill in those bands when they're at that phase so that they have their head screwed on straight. I mean, a lot of things like don't jump into things. Don't just like, don't take, don't say yes to everything. Like think about it. Think about how to think about your future. Have a goal. I can't tell you how many bands I've met that are like, when I asked them what their goals are, they're like, uh, they don't have an answer. Like, okay, we'll start there. You know, there's something admirable about that, that like they just play music, but then we got to get you on a track. Yeah. Even the like punkist of punk stuff I've ever touched always had like visions, you know, and like hopes and things they wanted to achieve. And it's like to kind of, so I guess that's part of it, right? Is like, have your shit figured out in terms of what are you doing? You know, like, are you just making music for fun? Well, you maybe don't need to spend 5g on a publicist, you know, like, are you trying to do X, Y and Z and you're looking, you understand that this might be the right path and you understand that, you know, how this all operates will cool or you want to understand this stuff cool. You know, so I think it's just like getting your kind of intentions figured out and just sort of like your story, you know, like figure out who you are because as much as it's annoying, you know, when artists have to have some kind of cool story to tell, it's like, it doesn't have to be, but it has to be authentic. So figure out what makes your project so unique, what makes it so special that everyone's got to hear it, learn that inside and out and find creative ways to build a world around that, you know, and like just start thinking that way. So I think, yeah, like in those early days, it's just like, have some idea of what you're trying to do. Yes, it doesn't be perfect, but like really, you need to have more of a vision and then we want to get signed, you know, like you have to have some kind of vision of like, well, we've all been doing music for X, you know, this is our thing and you know, some kind of path that the people around you can really work with. And I think that's the other most important thing too for young bands to know is like, don't worry so much about the like name brand like acolytes that you could chase that seem to be helping all these other bands get popular. Focus on just like finding people who love your project, just find your fans, find them and like, don't worry about that other shit, like find a team that cares because that's how you'll get to those places. Just like hoping that a pitchfork review is going to change it all overnight. It's just not reasonable and it doesn't work. So it's just like an expectation thing for sure. You mentioned the story thing. This is a thing I talk about a lot on this YouTube channel. Is there anything you can impart on wisdom of like how I find a lot of artists don't know how to tell their story? Is there anything you tell them about figuring that out? I feel like I actually have like literally a question there sometimes that I send to those kinds of artists. Sometimes I lately I've been sending them to everyone because it's just fun, but it's like sometimes it's just like asking them questions because you could I've gotten on Zimz before with bands who have incredible records and then I'm like talking to them and it's like talking to I'm sorry, it's like talking to like a fish. It's just nothing happening. And it's just like, oh, shit, you don't have anything to tell me. Holy moly, and so it's sort of like I usually try to like ask questions and like help shape the story for them and help them start thinking in that sense so that they know it's not like, oh, well, you don't like make something up, you know, it's just like, I want to know who you are. That's kind of it. That's the answer to that question. And so helping them just reframe the way to think about it is usually my move in the beginning and just asking certain questions to try to get it out of them and find out different things about who they are. And from there I can usually piece it together. I like that. I like that. So is there anything particularly fun on this questionnaire you're willing to share? Well, that's where the emoji question is. I have the emoji question there. I have like moods, colors, like I want all those things I have describe your band in a sentence or less like stuff like that, like little challenges almost to try to like have. And I, you know, it's something like I encourage them to have fun with it. It's not for, you know, I never share anything they write there publicly. It's literally for me. So that and it's for that, you know, it's just really an exercise if anything and getting them to sort of start thinking about more than just, okay, we made a record, start thinking about these other things that can be factored into the whole picture. But yeah, it's pretty nice. I could probably have more fun with it, but I get a little weird with it, but I keep it, I keep it mental. I like that a lot. So one of the things you mentioned is not saying yes to everything. So many of the viewers of this channel, I am sure enjoyed the interview I did with Varty Stray, which you work with. And I know he told me you gave lots of advice about what to say no to what to have patience with. Why do you find this important? Like what have you seen in people's careers? Like why this like, I feel like so many people like once they start getting opportunities, they want to say yesterday because they've been waiting so long from what have you seen that makes this important? Yeah, I think to be clear, though, I feel like when it comes to like, I mean, with press stuff, it's a little talk about that. But like, when I say like, don't jump into things and you know, don't say yes to everything, I really mean like those young bands who are like the first record label that reaches out and sends them some kind of handshake-ish agreement and it's sketchy, but they don't know any better and they're just excited and they want to be signed, they go bam, bam, bam, and it all happens so fast. And then it's four years later, they're fucked. Like, I can't tell you how many people have heard stories of even in recent years of this still happening. So I think I mean, definitely like, don't just jump into having a manager and having a booking agent having a record label just because it's an opportunity that's in front of you. Do your work, do your research, get a lawyer, think about it, ask advice, reach out to other bands that those people work with and make sure they're legit. Like, do the work. Like, don't just because somebody's reaching out to you with some kind of potential thing, radio companies, PR people, all this bullshit, they're just looking for their payday. So if they're reaching out, like, take a beat, you know, like, don't, don't hit, don't just jump into a deal. But when it comes to press opportunities as well and any kind of like media or promotional opportunities, I think you do have to weigh them out. I think it is, it can be like a free for all when you finally get that attention, you just want to do everything. But it really depends on who you are as an artist and what story you're trying to tell. And like, you know, if I was working with somebody who is a little bit more like I'm trying to kind of craft their their image in sort of more of an esteemed kind of category or mysterious, like, I may not have them talk to every single college blog or radio station that pops up. But some artists, it's like, Oh, you're a household name in the making, we're going to talk to everybody as long as it's legit, you know, so it just depends. And I really, I think I look at each as a case by case kind of thing. And there's probably no harm in doing everything, right? Like if people just want to interview you and it's some small blog, or I know when I first started, it was always these people with tumblers and I'm like, it'd be like they just made their own and they're like, yeah, I would like a press pass to cover for my site. And I'm like, your site is just a blog, dude. Like, yeah, I gotta draw the line somewhere. Like, would I tell people that I used to get 1100 emails a day when I was managing man overboard? They're like, there's no way. And I like screenshot the thing. But I'm like, yeah, but like 200 of those were kids saying I have a blog. And it's just their tumbler. And they want to shoot and they want the photo pass. And then they I inevitably over top, like, I was younger and like, I obviously had agreement, some of those things and like, they almost always come back with nothing. It's just like so silly. So yeah, I think like, really like, it doesn't hurt to do everything. Obviously, if you're a small band and people are excited, sure, you don't have to be picky. But I also sort of feel like don't waste your time. You could be doing other stuff. That is a big thing is I think like, and it actually probably brings me to a great question to ask you is there is some things that just aren't effective to do and it weighs down the time that they have, you know, artists want to do other things aside from just talk to the person with four tumbler followers. What do you see that's effective that you think people underestimate these days and like what they can be doing to get people to hear their music? Just being visible, you know, just being out there, just being on social, just being users, right, of all these kind of places where activity is happening. Like having things like discord and stuff these days is like incredible because you can just like dialed in like communication with your people. I like, I'm dragging my feet on starting one because I gotta make sure I can actually keep up with this shit. Yeah, I will tell you, mine is about under 30 days old and I can't believe like how great a community it is and I'm like, now I'm that person, I'm like, I'm a fucking idiot for not doing this faster. Yeah, but that's the thing is like there's all these ways that you can stay visible with, you know, that isn't just doing, I think there's sometimes an expectation from artists or from teams that are like, we have to be getting a lot of press to be visible. And it's like, well, not necessarily, it's one piece of the bigger picture. So like, what are you doing content wise? What are you doing, you know, out and about? Like, I don't know, there's like so many different little points on a marketing plan. And the traditional thought of like getting blog red ebbs and websites to cover your stuff is such like one bullet point, like a bigger picture of how people are discovering artists these days. And it's just about being able to be seen. That was what worked for Bartees, you know, it was just, there's always something happening because you're actually working. You're actually start speaking out opportunities and you have the actual talent to back it all up. And so it's just like, never stop working, never stop chasing an opportunity. And as long as you're always kind of thinking in that mind frame, you will always be visible. I managed another artist, his name is Quentin Brock, and he did some co-writing stuff a while ago with a friend of his. Now her record just got best new music at Pitchfork, you know, and he's mentioned within the first sentence because he's a part of the record. And so it's like, you just constantly be working and constantly creating and coming up with ideas, taking photos, doing whatever it literally doesn't really matter at all. Just do stuff. And it will be seen by someone at some point, and especially things that can't have that digital footprint of, you know, the photographer who took the pictures of you or the, you know, podcast person who mentioned you, I don't know, like there's all kinds of different little like bullet points that you can kind of hit. That I think is the most meaningful and most impactful is just that visibility. Yeah, it is interesting because like you talk about the thing of like just even staying busy. Like I do think that a lot of times some people focus on bad things of what they could be doing with their time. But like there really is something too that if you're just waking up every day and working on this, if you do have music that connects with people, that's a lot of just the battles, if you're just doing things. Yeah, you don't even, and it doesn't need to all be public facing, you know, like it doesn't have to be like, I'm releasing music constantly. It's just, are you waking up and focusing on your craft in some way, you know, and maybe that means that day it's okay, I'm going to film a bunch of guitar tutorials for my TikTok. And the next day it's, I got a bunch of calls today, I'm checking you with my team, you know, the next day it's whatever. It's just like constantly having that be at your focus. It's going to, in turn, all that work is later going to pay you back because it's all going to hit at these different moments. And each time something hits you're another, you're showing up in another feed of someone new who's now maybe they've seen your name three, four, five times in the last month, you know, just through existing online, you know, and that's sometimes all it takes for people is that repetition and that feeling like, okay, I've seen that name too many times now, I have to check that out. You know, that's how you get people. It's just like you, you have to kind of be creative with that approach. You can't just set up scheduled tweets and hope for the best. You have to like, you have to be working on your shit, you know, and I think that's sometimes there's bands who just kind of like sit around and wait for the team to kind of start acting when that's just not the way it works. You've at least got to be thinking about this stuff every day, you know, you at least have to be brainstorming like at bare minimum. And that's the way things start to happen, I think. And that's when moves start to be made. And all that stuff snowballs over time. So since you do creative work with these promotions, you just mentioned the brainstorming, how much of the job for you is the brainstorming? So much. Yeah, I think so much of it. I mean, I try to do as much of it as I can. And really, all it means for me is everybody has their own approach. For me, I just got to listen to stuff. I just listen to whatever it is I'm trying to think of. I try to take in any kind of context I have from talking to the artist or just learning more about the project or whatever I know about it. And yeah, I just, oh, God, I probably spend months something. If I have that, I almost always say like, if you're going to hire me for PR, like, give me as much time as possible, because I'll just listen to it for months. And I'll just let it become a part of my life. And when it's that absorbed into me that I want to listen to it every day, that's when ideas start to come out. And that's when just creativity starts to flow and just excitement and enthusiasm. And every time I listen to it, it makes me come up with 10 new things, new people to reach out to, new approaches, new angles, whatever. So that, I would say, is the bulk of it. And then it's obviously like, I have my days every week where I just sit here and I bury myself in writing emails. And that's all I do for like eight hours. But yeah, brainstorming process for me is like so important. And when I don't have, that's the thing about sometimes I get hit up by, you know, people who they're hitting me up, the album comes out in a month, the album comes out in two months, blah, blah. And for me, if it's a great record, it's hard for me to say no to something just because it's like, dude, if I love it, I want, I have a platform, I'll use it. You know, why not? But that is, that plays into my ability to have that time, you know, and to have that comfortability with a record and know the ins and outs of it so much that I can think of the exact person to reach out to or the exact idea or this line from this one song should be this, you know, like, that's how that all sparks. So I can work on short time frames, but it's not a light switch, you know, like it's not going to be the same thing. You're not giving me the same amount of time. So, like, I get hired a lot to develop podcasts. We're like, we want to watch this in three weeks. I'm like, I know podcasts look simple, but like, you want to do a top 200 podcast, like a lot of the ones I produce, that takes a lot of development of finding where it fits in the world and what we can do. One of the things I think was interesting you just mentioned was press and blogs. A lot of people, especially kind of in the world you and I live in in the punk underground DIY, whatever we're calling it today world, don't feel like blogs matter anymore. What are your thoughts on where we're at with that? I mean, kind of feel like for some bands, I kind of agree, you know, like, it's a very, it's a thinning landscape more and more every day for anything with a guitar in it. So it's just like, I mean, it and that is just like punk sits in pop punk and all it's such a far place from what's being covered that it's on the norm. Obviously, right now it's a different story, but it's just like those kinds of bands, it's just like they have such a far way to go to being like a press band that it's just like, it is certainly not worth it, you know, so for some of them, like, and, you know, every now and I've definitely seen some bands words like it wasn't worth it on your first record, but hey, your second one, you kind of lean into a different sound a little bit and you could probably try something, you know, it just depends. But I think that for all that sentiment that you mentioned that people have is I would probably agree with it. Honestly, for some people, it's just don't don't make any sense. There's just not anything about there's not a ton of stuff of value that you could be doing. Cool. There's like five outlets I can think of that are like national publications, whether it's here in the UK that kind of touch upon this stuff as a specialty. That's crazy, you know, like, that's like, you should not be putting all the eggs in that basket because there's barely any, I don't know, there's barely anything there, you know, like still go for it, but it can't be the, you can't look at that as a big answer, you know, that's just got to be like I said earlier, that's just got to be in that 70% right of like the check mark, we reached out to these folks, they've got it, they'll review it, we're good to go. Like you just kind of have to like cover the bases at that point and just, you know, if anything else develops from there, cool. But and I'm not saying don't work it, you know, don't try, but the expectation going into it should definitely be like pretty reasonable. Like this is just something we're doing to see what happens versus we're expecting to be this like take off kind of thing where everyone posts about it. It's just not worth it. It's unfortunate, but just the way it is. It really is weird because like obviously, like in the world you and I worked in 10 years ago, we'd put a lot of our time into it. I am somewhat convinced that the blog still reached the right people to help launch you and that like the worth is that like, yes, you're going to look at your Spotify and be like, wow, we got an uptick of 250, but a lot of that maybe 50 of those are the people who are actually influential and then tell people who to listen to and are the movers and shakers in your scene. Yeah, I definitely think so. I think that's why it's it's still worth it, you know, because it's like you'll still be able to get an impact out of those kind of maybe there's so few outlets, but there's those writers have influence on their friends and on the people who follow them and stuff. So yeah, there's definitely still like value to it. It's just like that expectation beforehand needs to be at that level, you know, like going and that's never going to be the case. Even if they listen, even if they say it is, because two months later and two, you know, emails about asking about pitchfork later, it's like that's just something people say. But yeah, it's just sort of like that expectation is so important because if you can go into it with the thought of like, cool, we're really trying to get in front of these writers because we know they hit the audience we want. And then you focus on whatever kind of happens from there. Sometimes they even tell bands it's more important to get a certain writer to be into your stuff as a fan than it is to just hound them and hound them and hound them to review your record. Guess what? They're busy. They got to deal with all the bigger shit that's going on in the world. They got to deal with their day job. Sometimes they got to deal with a million other things. Your small pop punk baby band kind of situation. Sure, they may like it, but we should not like stuff it down their throats to review it because if they wanted to, they would. So if anything, just focus on making a fan out of that person and make them supportive of you. And maybe they don't catch you on this record, but they're a fan. They come to the show and then they catch you on the next one, you know, like there's so many, again, there's all these variables, but it should the focus of everything should be back at, let's make fans out of people, you know, let's make real fans out of them, not just make this like sometimes I don't love doing PR because it feels so transactional, you know, it's just so like, it's so like, I need this, you need content, let's do it, you know, I'll at least be good for 20 retweets. It's just like, it's an unfortunate thing, but it's just like, it does feel that way sometimes. And so to look at it more like, no, no, no, I'm building a fan out of that person, even though they're writing about it too. I'm really focused on building a fan out of them first. That's interesting. Yeah. And like, I think it's something people forget. Like, I tease my girlfriend all the time that she only is friends with pitchfork writers. But like, it is the thing that people forget is that like, even when they like something, they don't always get to write about it. And so like your approach is actually very, very intelligent. Yeah, because it should be the long game, right? It should be like, you want to make a fan out of that person because then it's not going to be reliant on, you know what, I have a perfect example of it. Like, when we were in the height of like post emo Bible pitch, like premieres, everyone was pitching premieres everywhere for these emo bands and they were popping up left and right. And it was like a competition at that point. Everybody was like, Whoa, I got to get a cooler look. And I feel like I worked with some of, I have worked with some of those bands since them. And when you go back and you say, Okay, well, they got covered at pitchfork or they got covered at NPR, they got a premiere here or whatever. And you go back and you repitch to that same writer. And you say, I've got a new record from this artist that you premiered years ago. And this is the new thing they couldn't give a fuck less. And sometimes they don't even remember. They like, and I'm not bullshitting you. So that's like real shit that's like, dude, this you've got to make them fans, you have to hit them from a human approach because there's too much like you said, you had 1100 emails when you're a manager is like, probably four or five times that when you're a writer that's known for covering a certain genre, you know, so it's like, just thinking less of like it being such a transaction and more of it like, I just want this person to like the record because whatever comes from that will be positive, you know, and it'll be, it'll be a good thing for our long term plan, you know, is that getting that person to support us means, you know, like I said, maybe they can't review their album right or they can't cover the album, but they come to your show and buy a shirt or they, you know, on your next album cycle, they've got you on this or they've shared it with four other people and one of them could review your album like you don't even mean it just can be a million other things can happen if you actually have their support versus just pitching them into the ground until they say yes, which they won't do anyway, so just not worth it. So I'm going to flip the table a little since you have another job now, you're now part of a management company, you want to tell us a little bit about that? Sure, yeah, my bud Tim Zahadski started a company, yes, he started his own company Better Artist and he asked me to join him and he has been just like a huge champion for me for a long time, I've known him for far too long and he has always told me that you should try management like you, I would be happy to help you with it because you would be great at it, but like I don't know why you're not doing it, you're already sort of doing the work of a manager on a lot of your artists, like you really should just step in and do it. And I always just was like, no, I was like, I can't imagine like, I don't know, I guess I just had the thought of what a manager is wrong in my head, but I just like couldn't, there was nothing I liked enough, like there's just nothing that I liked enough that I could also see like, oh, I can definitely be more involved, you know, I can do more than just press here. And I didn't feel, you know, Tim and I, every time we'd see each other over the years, he would bring it up as kind of like a thing like, when's it going to happen, Jamie? And that was that. And then I met Barty's. Well, I could understand, I could understand that be changing someone's mind. Yeah, I met him and I heard that record and I was just really like, it touched me and I was really blown away. And I think for the first time I heard, I heard music and I met a person and I saw the future, you know, and I really did, I could see a path and I was like, well, this involves a lot more than doing PR. And to be truthful, I didn't even, we didn't even talk about management until probably eight or nine months into it. We were just. I was gonna say, yeah, I remember it wasn't that at all what he would talk to me about what you guys were doing at first. It was for me, it was so funny because in this is a little, you know, shows my how green I am with being a manager, but it was like, I just started doing the work. Like I was like, okay, well, I have like all these connections and all these relationships I've made over the years of people in all different facets of the industry. I'm just going to start sending them the shit and I'll just reach out to publishers and agents and just labels and just so many people and anyone I could think of that I thought would resonate with the music. And I mean, it's hilarious to me today to know how many people had that record in their inbox long before the world. Yeah, like it's hilarious. But yeah, I just started reaching out to people and we set up meetings. I had them hooked up with an agent. I had them hooked up with publishing. I had them like just talking to people and getting in that feeling of like talking about your art and your future and your goals and this record and what you want to do and start figuring all that out. And it was somewhere in there that was like, oh, when I finally got the music to Tim and Will, well, yeah, who he manages. That was sort of the moment where Tim was like, is this the one? Can we do this? And I was like, yeah, okay. And it was like, but it was really funny. Since I think I sent this to Tim on like, oh, Tuesday. And then on that Thursday, we were on the phone and he was like, Jamie, he's like, now I know you're really doing the work of a manager because you're doing it right now. And like, we should probably talk about this one. It was the first time that it was just like, it seemed like a natural fit. And now it's been like two years. And it's definitely a natural fit. That's the, that's the homie right there. And obviously things have been working out. So, but it gave me, you know, gave me the confidence to now take on other artists. So I'm managing more than just parties. So it's like, I have a few other things I'm working on that it just, yeah, like doing it for this long and having Tim kind of be that guide a little bit and take it, take it on with me has been really helpful to like just me figuring out like, oh, wait, this is not as scary as I thought it was. And it's kind of fun. So for every manager, the job description is a little bit different. What do you see as that role since you were so hesitant to not do the role? What is the role? And what do you see the responsibilities as now? Yeah, I mean, it kind of has been like, it's like a lot of advising, right? And like helping him navigate decisions. And, but also just like seeking out opportunities that would make sense for him and spearheading like different projects and stuff. Like it's been really nice to be able to be a part of creative aspects that aren't just PR, you know, and just being able to help build out sessions and, you know, creative. We've done now he's the ambassador for independent venue weeks. So he's doing a lot of stuff with that, but just being able to like have a more strategic role, I guess, in what you're doing and when and how that's been, you know, a lot of what I've been doing and just navigating the ship, you know, kind of that's been like, that's kind of what it feels like sometimes is like all these things are coming in. And it's our job to sort of like filter you through them, pick out the things that are worth it that are valuable to you that make sense for your vision in the long term goal and kind of help you with all these waters. And that's, I don't know, I think I thought that being a manager meant like, you had to be on call 24 seven and you had to be with them 24 seven. And like, it was just like, yeah, these thoughts of like, no, I want to be home. Like, I like to chill on my couch at the end of the day. I think I just, I thought it was a much more demanding role. And maybe when you have like, you know, a household name superstar, maybe it does get more demanding, but for right now, it's been very comfortable. And we have a very like any, everyone I manage, it's all very tight little teams and like, people who just understand one another and have that respect for each other. So it's really comfortable. Are you, are you watching Dave, the TV show? Like the TV show? No, I'm not, no. It has a great, great point on the recent episodes to what you just talked about. The manager and artists are living together. It's not good. But it's interesting. So like what you're talking about though, is that thing like, when you end up with an artist like Bartiz, when you're trying to break bands, as you've done, it's all trying to create opportunities. Whereas now it's like, oh my God, there's so much now it's all decision making of like, what is right and what's the right path and what up? Fortunities are good. You're also bad at jigsaw bars, I imagine that are not at that point. So how do you see that juxtaposition each day for you? I think a good manager probably should never stop seeking out opportunities, right? Like it should never be like, oh, we have so much coming in. We can just kick back and chill now. Like you should still be like, even if I got to a level where somebody I managed was like a superstar, I feel like you should still have goals. You should still have vision. You should still have things as you get more and more popular, the scope of what you're able to do gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So you can do bigger, crazier things and cooler things. But I think if I have the mindset that I'm never not seeking out opportunities for the people I work with management wise, or I'm never not talking about them in some capacity to someone at some point every week, then I don't think that I'm doing the job right. So I think there's really no difference, you know, other than with somebody where it's connecting, you're doing both the seeking and the kind of fielding. But with the smart artists, it's a it's much more of a grind and it's much more of a like the beginning phases. It's always like build the team and get the team in place. And I feel like I'm pretty good at that. I've met a ton of people who I've been able to kind of pair them up over the years with people that I think they would get along with or that they would like their music. And so with my smaller bands, it's just about finding those people and getting the music out to anybody I can think of and try to kind of build their team for them and with them so that then we can move forward and we can, you know, work on a record or a single or whatever it is, but you've got your crew kind of in place. So it's definitely more of the like flicked pitching, but not as terrible as it is to pitch in PR. Yeah, there's nothing I like less than pitching it as somebody who gets pitched all day. It's made me eat it even more. Yeah, it's rough. It's super rough. And so I feel it's a similar thing where you're in the pitching seat kind of as a manager, but I think it's a little different because it's like, I'm not, I'm not out here just like throwing my bands in the hat for every single thing I can think of. It's like, no, I'm still being strategically driven, right? So it's still like with the goals of the project in mind, we're reaching out to people, you know what I mean? So it's just a, it's a different approach. It's definitely more comfortable for me in terms of pitching. I don't feel like, like I was talking about how it's so transactional. It doesn't feel that way. It feels much more collaborative and that's cool. Like I like talking to other managers and figuring out, like, oh, what are you guys doing? That matches up with what we're doing on stochial like that. Like that is all, that's a big part of like the day to day. I feel like it's just kind of connecting with people and sharing music and just seeing what other people are doing and where can you find somewhere to meet in the middle sort of. Yeah. I think it's a thing people really underestimate is that like, I tell them, like being aware of who your community is and then getting on the line and exchanging what's going on is so much a part in a lot of DIY bands. Like they don't get it. It's like making friends with those other bands and just chatting up each other. That's so much of the game. It's a huge part of the game because it's also like, you got to be visible to their fans. If that's the crew, you want the community you want to be a part of and you want to get in front of those people, like supporting those bands is going to be a huge way of like getting in front of that world, you know, and you have to be active. You have to be trying like, if I could do it, reach out DM them, like who cares at this point? You know what I mean? There are no rules. Just DM somebody and be like, DM these people you kind of want to be around. And I do the same thing with managers and agents and stuff. Like if there's somebody who I'm like, I don't know you, but I think I have music to share that you might like or appreciate. And there could be some cool thing for us to do together. I don't care. I'll reach out however I can, you know, like it's because it's coming from a real place. It's not just this like, I send it out to everybody type of thing. So nice. I love that. As we bring this to a close, I always decidedly try to do the things that are going to make people blush at the end so that they don't have to do it. But so like a couple of bands have always said to be like, ah, you know, I just don't want to do something less like Jamie Coletta would like work it and like become a for the punk DIY community that I roll in, you've become like the person people really want to have on their team. How do they get noticed by you? It's the truth. It's I say this. Can I ever end up working with those bands who said that? I think you want to one out of four. I'm thinking. Damn, life's cold. How do people get you excited about their music? What happens that you become excited about something for you to want to work a project? I mean, I have to like the music. It has to be good. And I hate to say it, but there's so many people who are they're doing okay. And they have a cool sound. They're developing or they're, you know, they have their own thing. And that's great. But it's just like I have to respond to it. And so there's got to be a level of talent there that is real and good and different. I think for me, different is a huge thing. If it just sounds like stuff I've heard before or worse, if it just sounds like bands I work with, it's I'm going to be maybe I'll be a fan, but I'm not going to want to work with you because I don't that doesn't do it for me. So I feel like it's got to be like music I really like and I would like to listen to on my own time. And then it's always like, I have to vibe with the people and I have to feel like this isn't just you don't as an artist view me as this like magic trick that's like, cool, we have Jamie on our team now, we're going the distance. It's like, no, that I need to understand that like you understand you've been following or like you know of me because it has to be authentic reasons, you know, and not just they think I'm this ticket, because there's plenty of bands who think they work with me and you all only see my successes. I don't broadcast my failures, but I don't broadcast the records that don't connect. Like I bust my ass, but I'm not out here being like, Oh, it's a shame I didn't do so well on that last project. Like I only talk about the things I'm super gassed up on. So it's like, how many things do I love that I can't get through. And then so it's like, I've had plenty of bands who when it doesn't connect and they look to me like, well, what the hell? And it's like, okay, like that's not that's not okay. So I haven't had anyone with that kind of attitude in a while. Thankfully, but I've had plenty of bands like that where post release, they're just like, this is bullshit. Like you've got X, Y and Z for our friends. And it's like, no, it's not how it works. No, that's not how it works. So it's like, gotta be I have to like the music on like a totally authentic level. And we've got to vibe as people and I have to really believe that like your intentions are real, you have goals for your project, you don't see me as this like, you don't see PR as this one size fits all kind of solution or ladder to success, you see it as a piece of a bigger picture. And, you know, you see my value as what it is versus just this kind of, I always say it's a light switch. That's what I feel like sometimes is like, people think they can just hire me and it's done. No dog, like you still have to come through with like a ton of work. You have to be making so much content. You have to be hustling super hard with me. Like, I can only do so much. Obviously, if I love something, that's the core thing I need. If nothing else is there and I still love the music, you can get something out of me. But that's it's really, it's so simple. And I can't really like explain what it is that I like. I feel like I have definitely like crafted out a little like sound that I gravitate towards and every now and then a band will reach out and I'll like just get a feel right away. I'm like, yeah, this is my shit. Yeah, or they know, they're just be like, dude, we listen to all those same bands you love, like we think you really like it. And it's like, okay, you're right. But my taste doesn't make a ton of sense. So it's kind of tough. You got a diverse roster out there. No, it's funny to like what you're saying to is like, I think that is one of the worst thoughts musicians have is if they just get this one thing, they don't realize it's the same reason like why when people talk about industry plants, I'm like, you're telling me you're fucking moron because I've seen so many rich kids go through the major label walls I worked, worked at and they go nowhere because it's doesn't matter. Even if the plant happens, it doesn't matter. It has to connect to an audience or it doesn't work. Yeah, exactly. And like, I yeah, I feel like it's a it's definitely a byproduct of like influence your culture in a way, you know, and it's no different than bands thinking that if a certain writer reviews their records for a certain website, you know, that all of a sudden everything happens. It's like the same thought process applies where every there's so many variables. And that's why your intentions have to be real, they have to be pure, you have to really want this and you have to be ready to work for it. And if it happens faster than that, sick, congratulations, but you can't go into it with that expectation. You have to go into it really wanting it and being down to adapt and just take every day one step at a time and build, build, build. And like, that's it. Like, you can't expect one thought one thing to be the answer to everything, not a label, not a publicist, nothing like nobody's going to be that one thing. Can I get you in front of, you know, my community that started to follow? Sure. Yeah. If there's plenty of times where bands would listen, we don't, we know we're not really a press thing, but just having your support on it gets new people paying attention to us. Cool. We are on the same page, you know, like that's that level of figuring out the expectations that is so important. So. Well, Jamie, I want to be respectful of your time. So can you tell everybody where to find you, how to follow you, how to hear more of your brilliant thoughts in the future? Oh, that's nice. At no earbuds on Twitter and Instagram is my main spot. That's where you can hear about all the bands. And then at Jamie, my full name is just the other one. And that's personal. And that's, you know, management PR, but I'm just always talking about bands. I don't really try to, I try not to use social media for anything else. So that's what you're looking for. That's where you find me. Nice. Well, Jamie, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. It was great. Yeah, thanks for that. It's a long time coming. Yes. So for the audience, we talked about this for, I can't even think how long, but I'm glad I'm finally happy because it was awesome. Hell yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thanks so much for watching. If you enjoyed this podcast, there's tons more like this that are about to come up on the end screen, or you can click a link in the description below to see more like it. As well, if you want to hear more like this in your favorite podcast app, just search noise creators and all of my podcasts are in that feed there. As well, if you're a musician who's trying to go from zero to 10,000 fans, I have a playlist linked below or on the screen in a second. That's all about how you do just that where I have tons and tons of videos on how you grow your fan base as a musician who hasn't yet established themselves. So please click that subscribe button and get notified to all my videos and stay tuned for even more content just like this. Thanks so much for watching.