 Welcome to the non-profit show. We are so glad that you've chosen to spend your time with us today. Today our guest is Miriam Dix, and she is the founder CEO at 180 Management Group. Miriam's here to talk to us about changing the culture of a non-profit. Stay with us because she's got some really great insights to share. Before we dive into conversation, we want to remind all of you who we are if we have not met yet. Julia Patrick is here, CEO of the American Non-profit Academy. I'm so grateful for this platform that you've created, Julia, and I'm honored to serve alongside you. Day in, day out, I'm Jarrett Ransom, non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group, and I just have to share I missed you, Julia. It's been a couple of days. I was out as I call forest bathing. I was in nature enjoying some time of being unplugged, and I missed the show greatly. So I'm excited to be back. 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So just queue up the non-profit show in a mere few hours. After today's conversation with Miriam, you will get a notification that today's episode has been uploaded. So no excuse to miss out and you can listen to this and to us anytime it fits your schedule. So please do check us out on these various channels. So again, today's guest, really excited to have you, Miriam Dix, again, founder, CEO at 180 Management Group, welcome to you. Well, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here today. We are excited, I'm even more excited knowing that you're coming to us from South Carolina, had no idea. So that was a fun little chatter in the green room conversation. But Miriam, tell us a little bit about yourself and then a little bit about what 180 Management Group does before we launch into the conversation. Sure, I am what I call the chief fire putter outer. No matter what organization I've worked for, no matter where I've been, just putting out fires and just being that kind of person to bring structure to whatever it is that I'm working on is really who I am. Now, outside of that, of course, I'm a mother, I'm a wife, I started 180 Management Group in I guess it was almost nine years ago and really want to help businesses, organizations be able to build and restructure if need be an organization that runs efficiently that can be managed at the highest level so that we can win, we can all win at mission, achieving mission and vision. And so that was the impetus behind 180 Management Group and that's what we do as operations consultants, leadership consultants and strategists is that we really want to make sure that organizations are structured in a way that they can win. But yeah, that's the long and short of it. And as you know, I think I told you just in the green room, I am on every personality test that I've ever taken, I am 99.99% extrovert. So if I get to talk in and you need to like pull me back in, feel free to do that. Oh my God, well good company. Yeah, really good company for that. You know, it's really funny because talking about culture, we have a culture of that. And sometimes Jared and I have to rope each other in so that our guests get a word in edgewise. So let's start out with this, Maryam, because culture is one of those, I said this in the green room, it's somewhat of a mysterious topic and it seems to change and we think, oh, that's civil, that's a civil discussion that shouldn't be part of our internal discussion, but it should be. I mean, let's start off with, how do we define this? So I'm gonna give you the very basic definition of culture. Culture is shared beliefs, practices and behaviors. Shared beliefs, practices and behaviors. I love it. So when I was in my twenties, one of my first jobs was to work with a nonprofit organization that provided healthcare services. And in that role, it was somewhat of a startup role in that that department was new. But when I was introduced into the organization, there were so many moving parts that really sort of frustrated me because I didn't know what I didn't know and I didn't know what to do. And there wasn't a lot of plans or a lot of plans laid out for me as to how I was gonna do this job, right? I was recently hired for. And I basically had to figure it out on my own. And this is not an uncommon story for many folks who work in the nonprofit industry that you get hired with a title and some ideas about what it is that you're supposed to do in that position. And you just kind of get in there and you have to wing it. And sometimes you're winging it in the midst of a fire, right? That's a culture. That's a type of culture that exists in that organization. And in that moment, it helped me to understand that I wanted to go back to school because I was like, there's a better way. There has to be a better way to do this work other than being thrown in the midst of a fire, right? But when you think about it, in that particular organization being onboarded, how I was introduced into the organization with whether it was talking about my benefits or whether it was talking about, as part of my orientation, what the work was gonna look like, all of those things were shared practices, right? The belief system, let's talk about belief system. If you say, well, this is just how we do it here. If someone says, oh my gosh, this is so crazy, you're all over the place. And someone says, well, this is just how we do it here. That's sort of this belief that we have to work this way because we've never done it anyway any other way, right? And then that whole practices piece, right? So we had the belief, the behavior piece is that we just do what we have to do to make it work. Right? And that's a shared behavior, right? So the practice of how we onboard or how we do the work, the belief system as to, are we able to change it? No, this is just who we are. And then these actual behaviors of, this is just what we do. So those things, all of those pieces, behaviors, practices and beliefs, all of that makes culture. It's so interesting because I feel like in the nonprofit sector, we are always dealing with a problem. And you introduced yourself. It was so interesting. Steve Byer put her outer, which I was like, I mean, Jared, didn't you, were you just like, yeah. Oh yeah. What happens in the nonprofit sector, we don't take the time to breathe needless to say, nor to strategize or to recognize that we need to make a change. And so I'm really intrigued by this because there's a thing in sales that says, don't call the baby ugly, meaning if you're saying to the group, we need to change. I think a lot of times people get defensive. They're like, well, we're doing the work of the angels. We don't need to change. So how do you navigate this to say, it is time for a change? How do you do that without being negative, I guess? Well, I think you really, and what we do is we identify pain points, right? Because if there's a cultural shift that needs to take place, there's usually some pain associated with why that should take place. There could be high turnover. People don't last long when they're stressed in their work environments. And that's a cultural issue. And so you could have high turnover or it could be that you have low staff morale, you know? People don't feel as though they are making any headway in doing the work that they're doing because maybe they're constantly changing priorities. We try something and it's great to try new things, but we have to do it long enough to know if it's effective before we are on to the next initiative. And so there are symptoms that come from having a culture that is maybe not as productive or as friendly or kind to our staff as it needs to be. And once we identify those pain points and the conversation is different because you're not attacking me, you're helping me. Right, right. You know, this is so fascinating to me and I'm hearing a lot of HR in this. And I'm also curious, Miriam, like who is the one of the organization that reaches out to you? Is it the CEO or executive director? Is it a board member? Is it, you know, like, like who is the person that says, ah, we need this, you know? Like who's the one that raises that? Most in general, I'm working with a director of operations, a COO, right? Because they're the fire putter outters and they know what fires are there and they know exactly what's going on in their culture. Even if they can't pinpoint it, they know they have a cultural issue because where we work as an organization is that in that crossroads between culture and operations. Yeah. Because we believe that culture is systemic and it has to be changed systematically, right? So if you think about systemic, what that means, it's like, and one of the definitions that I really love, you talk about plant life, is that it's absorbed and circulated. That's what systemic means. It's absorbed and it's circulated throughout the organization. And so if that's happening, you have to identify where in the pockets in the organization, because it could be just pockets, but it could be overarching culture, where is it that we need to really identify the issues so that we can put something in place that's systematic, right? So it might be, and we're not just talking about HR because it could be something going on with IT. I had an organization I was working with recently on creating this IT strategy for the organization. They kept saying things like, but we're just not tech people. Well, if that's part of what you say all the time, you will not be tech people. So you have to really understand that you have a language barrier there, those behaviors or beliefs, right? And we have to get beyond, we're not tech people and say, well, what support do you need as the organization to make sure that whatever applications you're using, everyone feels comfortable and confident that they can use those applications well, right? So then we might have that strategy, but then we're gonna also have to make sure it's communicated and that we hold people accountable because you can't change culture without having it be systematic, right? So we have to identify where the issue is and then we have to create that strategy and then we have to make sure that we are putting things in place that is communicated well, the strategy that is and what's acceptable behavior and what's not acceptable and then making sure we hold people accountable to that because you cannot have change if you don't have those pieces. Yeah, I'm curious when we talk about change, how long does that take? And on average, right? Because I know that there's, we're talking about a lot, you know, maybe we're just making some tweaks with our culture, maybe we're overhauling our culture. What does that transformation timeline look like? Well, you know, there are levels to this. I'm sure. All right, you know, it depends on how toxic the culture is, right? So we haven't really talked about toxicity, but if the culture is toxic and the organization finds themselves in sort of this emergency situation, then we're gonna have to respond to it in kind, which means we're gonna have to make some really strong, you know, decisions followed by some really, you know, some implementation of those actions that are, you know, taking place very quickly because we have to stop the bleeding. Yeah, right? So if you're on fire and you're, or you're, you know, hurt and you are gushing blood, then we have to make sure that we can plug you up. And so that's a quicker, like, you know, those are quicker type situations where you have to just put something in place. But ideally culture is like trying to turn a ship. You don't do that quickly. We can put out a fire, but that's more like putting a bandaid on a cultural issue. So if you're gonna turn a ship, you gotta do it slowly because you wanna make sure everyone is making that shift together. Because again, culture is shared beliefs, beliefs, practices and behaviors. Well, if it's not shared, it's not culture. That's right. So if you leave people behind, they won't be able to take part in this cultural shift and it won't take effect. So I love what you're saying because I can see this in so many ways. And you're painting a picture for me that's very distinct. And I've gotta ask you, can you take on more than one shift? So I loved it. You said, an organization said, well, we're just not tech people. And it's like, well, you gotta become tech people. We talk about that a lot in the nonprofit sector. Jared and I, we were on this all the time. And then let's say you have within that same organization, yeah, we're not good with playing or collaborating with the other departments. Can you take both of those cultural shifts that are needed and make those changes at the same time or do you need to plot along and take care of one before you can take care of the other? I think what's important is to make sure you have an overall game plan, like a strategy. Because when you have that overall understanding of what your organization needs, then you can identify at what point do we introduce certain parts of this change, right? So that's what change management really is all about. It's about making sure that we understand what changes need to be made and then knowing how we're gonna deploy those particular changes and those strategies. And so for example, the organization that we talked about which they wanted to overall their IT strategy. Well, part of it was making sure that they understood that as part of this, every director had a responsibility and a role to play in this. And if they have a responsibility and a role because they were overseeing a particular system, then they also had to communicate that to their staff. So we build in communication strategies, right? Because that's a big part of making the change. We also build in the technical pieces, right? So if you need other consultants, if you need other support, we need to build that into this process. And so having that overall strategy and then understanding what the timeline looks like, who needs to be a part of it, when they need to be a part of it, and then what is going to be the reporting or the impact, we have to measure the impact of it so that we know that we're plotting along the course, the way that we need to within the timeline that's been designed based on that particular need. So it really is systematic again, right? Because what happens, I think more often than not is that culture because of the word culture can be used so many different ways. Everyone has their own idea of what that is. You really should identify what your culture is and your organization. So I have a couple of questions. First of all, how do you identify the culture of your organization? Is this a survey? Is this a committee that come, a cultural committee that comes together? And then on maybe the same line of that, Miriam, I'm curious who defines or who decides that the place is toxic, right? Because I feel that I hear that often. And it's like, okay, is this one person's view? Is it one department's view? Or is this our shared culture? Because those are kind of two questions, but maybe... So let me answer the first question, which is how do you define your culture? How do you determine what your culture is? I would recommend that any organization who does not know, bring someone else in to help them define their culture. Right. Because you don't know what you don't know and you can't see things that may be hidden that someone else can pick up on, right? So I think you should bring someone in to help you assess your culture. Now, what we do at 180 Management Group is we have our own cultural assessment called the Groundwork. And the Groundwork is really understanding three facets of culture. How people work together, how people perform their jobs, their work, and how work is reported so that it's a part of strategic planning, right? So we need to know if you spin your wheels a lot, right? Because that's a part of culture. And we do that through a detailed assessment, if you will, and we also do interviews, like an employee survey and interviews, three parts to it, a detailed assessment, employee survey and interviews with key staff members who are responsible for building or managing certain aspects of culture. And we take that information and we have developed what we call the nine, excuse me, seven archetypes of culture. So if you've ever taken Myers-Briggs and I've taken Myers-Briggs or any of the other personality assessments, we have our own personality assessment for organizations. And so we can take that information and put it into, it'll pop out, we'll put it into an algorithm and it'll give us sort of this understanding of this type of culture that exists in an organization. And from there, we will design strategies, surrounding how it is that we can shift culture for the organization. But any consultant, we are again sort of boutique in that regard because we're an operations consulting firm, but consultants should be able to assess an organization's culture and provide some strategies and solutions to help make that shift, all right? So who decides then whether something is toxic? Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Who's the one that can say like, I'm gonna label this entire place a toxic workplace? I will say that if one person says it, then there's probably some truth to it. Yeah. I also feel like it's like wildfire, you know? Exactly, because if one person says it and someone's on their side, then it is gonna spread like wildfire. Right, they're gonna say, yes, it is, and then it just... However, who needs to believe it? That's different, right? Who says it is one thing, but who needs to believe it? And whoever the head person is in that organization needs to believe it because they are the ones who champion change, okay? If the person at the helm does not believe that the organization needs any kind of cultural change, it will not happen, right? It has to be buy-in at the highest level. So let's get onto that, because I think that that is magical. I loved Jared's question, like who hires you? Who brings this on? Because doing that is one heavy lift, but then actually making these transformational changes is another. And so talk to us about that. How do we take these steps in making a change? Well, the first part is the assessment, right? Understanding more about your organization and where you have opportunity to create a better culture, whatever that means to your organization, right? Because your data is going to show certain things. Like I said before, there are always symptoms to poor culture. So if we are able to identify what those symptoms are and we recognize that those are symptoms of the need for cultural transformation and we believe that we should move forward and transform in the culture, that's half the battle, right? That is just half the battle. So then after that happens, then it's okay. Well, now that we know, we've done this sort of situational assessment, we understand that our culture is not where it needs to be. What we need to have some visioning, right? What is our future state? What is that gonna look like for our organization? We know what our current state is, but what is our future state? What is our desire for this organization? And between your current state and your future state is where the work is. Then you can come up with a strategy that says, okay, we wanna be able to do X, Y and Z by this time because this is where we wanna be at X point in time and future, right? And so that helps break it down to the point where it's not so, like we said, heady, it's not so ethereal, it's very practical at that point. Here are steps that we need to take to get from point A to point B. And so at that point when you have those steps outlined, then it's a matter of aligning people, aligning processes and aligning your strategy to make sure those steps occur. I hope that's pretty clear because I want it to be practical that we aren't just coming up with, oh, I just think it should be like this today. No, no, no, no, we should have some data. There should be some symptoms. There should be something that by the end of this transformation, we know we've made a transformation because we can see the data change. Maybe it's employee satisfaction is increased. Maybe it's your turnover rate has decreased. Maybe it's that you were able to finish a project that's been outstanding for like 18 months. Right? I love those data points. And all along the way, Miriam, you are communicating this with all the team members. Is that right? That's right. We're talking all staff, right? And it's sort of a need to know situation here, right? Because some things as management, as leaders, we know that everyone isn't ready to absorb. And so we have to be careful about what it is that we tell people just because we don't want to give too much too soon because people can be overwhelmed, right? That's what we're leaders because we're ahead. We're not that we're better. It's just that we're in front of some things that maybe others who follow us are not in front of. And so we just have to be very careful to make sure that we don't overwhelm staff with so much information that they're not ready to handle. So communication, the communication strategy should be in place to let folks know what they need to know, when they need to know it. And really it should be like more of a scorecard or something like that, so they know they're winning. You know, we don't have a lot of time left, but it seems to me that you are engaging everybody in the notion that, hey, we need to make a change and guess what, you're part of it. Yes. If the post just from top down, this is our new culture, now believe it, right? Right. Is that true? I mean, you're not... So even as part of the assessment itself. Okay. That everyone knows in the very beginning, hey, we wanna make some change in our organization and you're gonna be a part of it, we wanna get your feedback. Yeah. So if someone's gonna reach out to you, we're gonna have this assessment done, we're gonna do this employee survey, we really wanna know how you feel about the organization. But you can't just stop there. You can't just say, well, we took a survey and no one told us what the results were. Like... Right. Right? That's what happens. Right? So you have to... It happens a lot. So you have to circle back around and say, okay, this is what came out of that survey and we're gonna engage X, Y and Z to make sure that we continue this conversation, we continue this process because we're invested in transformational change or cultural transformation. And so at that point, you should be giving some sort of timeline where you can give feedback about where you are in the process along the way. So it's not just that we heard from you, last year that we were gonna have this whole cultural transformation and then it's two years later and we don't know whatever happened to that survey we took because we never heard anything back from it. So there should be that communication again, communication that leads to accountability because we're not gonna just tell you something, give you information that you don't have any responsibility to uphold. All right? Well, one last question and I've gotta ask this because we, you work with it, Jared works with it, I work with it. High level, high extroverted, high powered executives who I would imagine, sometimes this is some pretty strong medicine or if not bitter, somebody comes and tells them something and they're not happy or they don't wanna embrace this news. How do we navigate change when leadership is like, well, that's not us, that's not true. How do we get them to see the reality of this? You know, that is a challenge. I don't know that I have a really good answer for that. I will say that until that leader experiences enough pain, they're not gonna make a change. If they're okay with status quo and it doesn't have an impact on them that, you know, that makes them want to, you know, change the organization or change the culture or be a champion, a change champion, you're just not gonna get anywhere. And so there has to be enough pain there, enough loss and that's where I've seen that transformation in that leader occur. When they realize, you know what? This isn't working. Yeah, that's true serum, you know, and I think you're right. I mean, it's how much pain will that person or persons endure, but also like the surrounding leaders saying, hey, I really think like to champion, you know, the assessment, to champion the conversation, to say, hey, you know, I think we could benefit from this. It's not gonna hurt us to identify some of these baseline, you know, notions and then let's take it from there. So... And that's relational. Yes. So that leader has to have a team that they trust. And if they trust their team, then that team can bring it to them and say, this is where we need to be. And I don't really see that a lot when it comes to not having a good team around that can influence the decision of that senior leader. Where I do see it happen most often where the denial is, is when it's a founder. Yes. Yes, founder. Hey, you know, Miriam, Miriam, you've been a champion on the nonprofit show today and we've talked a lot about having champions. You've been ours. Miriam Dix, founder, CEO of 180 Management Group, 180ManagementGroup.com, check them out. Really interesting conversation. I feel like as the pandemic winds down, this is gonna be that moment in our sector for 1.8 million nonprofits registered in this country to maybe start looking at these things and saying, okay, what are the lessons learned? What's our culture? How do we move forward? And so this has been an exquisite conversation. I suspect we'll be reaching out to get you back on. Yeah. It's really, really cool, really cool. Again, I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. I've been joined today by Jared R. Ransom, the nonprofit nerd herself. We have so much gratitude for our champions and they include Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, Steffing Boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out and help us bring great minds in our sector like we have today with Miriam Dix. Thank you so much, Miriam. I really loved what you had to say and I just see that it's an enlightened path forward for so many of us. So thank you. Thank you so much for having me. All right, every day as we end the each episode of the nonprofit show, we'd like to share our mantra and that it goes like this. Stay well so you can do well. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Thank you, ladies.