 It's been a long long day. I got a lot to say. It feels like I'm carrying a two-ton weight. I go to see my friend. Hello, I'm Monsignor Patrick Winslow. And I am Father Matthew Cowd. And we are speaking from the Rooftop. A podcast brought to you by 10 Books, in which we invite you to join our conversation out here in the open air. Where we look out upon the world around us from the rooftop of the church and share with you what we see. Well, hello there. Greetings. Good to be with you. I know it is. It's always a delight. Self-confidence and self-delusion. They go so hand in hand, don't they? Yeah, and usually my self-confidence is unfounded. I'm reminded of that constantly. Like the time we recorded one of these sessions and I didn't turn the device on. Yeah, that was our most brilliant. It was so brilliant. It was incredible. But it's lost now. It's known only in the mind of God and hopefully he forgot it. It's like those great musicians where they say the lost tapes have been found. Yeah, that's right. The lost compositions. Yeah, well, that's us. So that'll be lost. Well, you know, I was thinking that I should let you know very recently that we made a retreat inside a prison facility. And I know you know this. Sure. Yeah. Because it took two of the seminarians along. And it was really a great experience for those who may be listening. It's a three-day event. It's very similar to like a Curcio experience where it's like three consecutive days with a series of talk, prayer, sacraments. And it's all kind of moving in a direction toward really inspiring people to take from that experience some momentum and being intentional in their faith and trying to go from there in a more earnest way. Except it's inside the facility. So you bring in, we had probably, I don't know, 25 guys or something as an outside team, maybe 20 guys as an outside team. And we had probably on the inside, I don't know, maybe 45. Okay. It's just an optional thing they can come to? Yeah. So it just, it gets promoted inside the facility. And they, because it's a sponsored event, meaning the facility has invited us in to be able to pull this off. It's all monitored, you know, you're in it. In this case, we're in a gymnasium setting, a table set up and speakers and things. And we're able to have all of our sessions there, including the sacraments and mass and confessions, all of it. But they come in at the slot of time to enter and they stay with us all day long. And they're very long days until we leave on Sunday afternoon. But it was successful. It was a wonderful experience. It's a program known as Residence and Counter Christ. And it's meant to have this effect on these men. So I'm going back this Saturday with a group of men including my dad who's flying down here just for the weekend to be able to go into the facility and reconnect with the guys. It'll be one month since we were just there. And a group of guys from the outside will try to go back every month and connect with them. And then in a year's time, we'll do the rec weekend again. And so we kind of keep it available to the population. And would the men that have been through it, should they continue where they come into the church or they just they're deep in their faith if they're already Catholic? The majority of the men were not Catholic. And we have I think about 21 who signed up for RCIA. So potentially they will be the ones assisting with the next one. That's right. So they'll come back, assuming that they're in the same facility. They would invite it back to be part of it, as well as invite it to be inside team members. How does that work? You worked in other prisons before up in New York. I remember visiting a very difficult place with you. That was a maximum facility. And how does it work relative to transfers? Do people typically stay in the same one, especially if it's a life sentence kind of a thing? It really all depends on your behavior. I mean, certainly there are going to be factors that are really not about the particular inmate about populations and having to shift. So you have a certain proportion number here versus there. But by and large, they have fairly lengthy stints at various locations. But should they have to be disciplined to a greater degree, they might go from a medium facility to a maximum. They might go from one max facility to a max A facility. You might then actually get out of a max and go down to a medium or a minimum. And oftentimes, especially in upstate New York, there are certain programs that would be available at different level facilities. And so a men would shift out of say a maximum facility because they've been working hard on conquering their addictions. And if they go to this medium or minimum facility, they have basically money through Friday, five hours a day. It's like AA work all day long for them, whether they're just doing constant type of rehab work on themselves. Yeah. So you can have these types of programs available in some of these lesser less severe facilities, because they allow for a sort of matter of freedom and be able to attend to participate. So there are those type of factors that depend on the individual, their discipline, their, their behavior, the programs that they may want or request. And then there are probably other factors that are being driven by the state itself and determining population distributions. I mean, admittedly, persons are persons. And so every person that comes in front of you is going to have their own story. Yeah. Things are going to be different, et cetera. But in the main, what do you find to be the immediate reaction? So you've got, let's say, you've got 25 people that come. Obviously, there's 100 hundreds, depending on how big the place is, that shows not to come. Right. Oh, yeah. So these are people that are either looking for something to do that's not what they were doing before. And some of them are mocked for going. Yeah. Imagine so. And yet, what do you experience the sort of receptivity when you just had the gospel? You were reading the gospel this morning about the seed falling on different soils. So I would say that kind of going into it, you're going to have obviously different degrees of receptivity. We had a young man who for the past year had been kind of reading himself into the Catholic faith. And he knew even before this weekend, because he was meeting with some Catholic volunteers on a weekly basis that he wants to come into the church. And then you would have then other men who are coming and maybe they're just coming for the food, because it's an opportunity to get something other than jail food, prison food, and, hey, we're okay with that. Sure. We're not proud. We'll take whatever incentive. Maybe you hear something that will strike you. And we're really open about it. We're not upset that you came for the food. We don't feel used. We know exactly what we're getting into here. We want you to be here. We think if you come for the food, you might actually find something more, food for the soul. So I find that the men, generous speaking, are cautious. They're going to size you up quickly as to whether or not you're fraud. This is necessary for their own survival. They're going to determine, I think, very quickly whether you're trying to play them. And if they size you up in such a way that you're authentic and sincere, it makes, I mean, it makes for a whole different event. And of course, that's exactly how we come off, because we actually are being sincere. We don't have to pretend to be, and they pick up on that very quickly. That garners respect immediately. I suppose even just coming in there, there's a certain amount of respect, just because unless you're asking them for something, why in the world would you do this? Why would you intentionally go in? There's a suspicion, right? What do you get out of this? And they learn pretty quickly. I remember I was in the one in New York with you. I went to the one that you were in recently. I've been there to serve the men. And I've not done it extensively, maybe a half a dozen times in my priesthood. And I have to say that every single time I did it, when the doors closed behind me, there's that moment of, oh my gosh, I'm not going to get back out. I don't know if you ever felt that, but I know it's irrational. I've never felt that, but that's in large part because I'm guilty. Or maybe because I feel like I've gotten away for so long that no one's ever going to catch me. When I was in college, my dad started doing prison retreats back in the late 80s. So when I was in college, I mean, he would make us go in on the Saturday time period where outsiders like my mom could come in. So I would come in. So there was some familiarity that happened for me long before I discerned into the seminary itself. And I would see my dad kind of go in and out, in and out all the time. He was doing these rec programs in upstate New York, but he was also in between them, whether they do one or two, two a year at a facility. He was running Bible studies with them all the time. And it was a joke. I mean, my dad, we would just joke that he'd rather be in prison, you know, because he was always up there. But that's how committed and dedicated he was to the work. It goes to show you that in these types of efforts, the more you give, the more you receive, you get sucked in because of the goodness that's coming from it and the impact to be a light and darkness. Yeah. And the impact that it has on real people and to understand their situations from which they come, which are complex and difficult. And quite honestly, they evoke a certain amount of empathy. And then even, I think because of that, by the time I was a priest and was asked to be a chaplain for the facility up in New York, it was all pretty easy. And that phrase was like the old fashioned Shawshank, you know, big skeleton key kind of thing. The facility that was just that, you know, more like less like that, right? It was a little more like normatories. Whereas this, where I was up in New York, was just what you saw in the Stephen King Shawshank film. It was very old world in the heart. And that would make anyone feel like maybe I'm not getting out. That said, getting back to the disposition of the guys, you know, they have, they have to live in that facility. And that is a community. It's not necessarily a community. It's a smaller world. Yeah. And they have their own norms. And it is, how should we say, not well received when you behave maybe in a Christian way. Right. You're breaking up their hierarchies. You're disturbing their laws, their governance. Norms, expectations. And then all those things we consider to be a sign of weakness. And then suddenly you might be on the receiving end of some vitriol and harshness, maybe in violence. And so it's a tricky thing to talk to these men about, hey, go live your faith. Well, you know, it's not like they're going to go live their faith in town, where they have a lot of people who are living it, or, you know, they can rebound nicely. They're going back into a facility where the types of things that we're telling them are not going to be very well received. Yeah. You know, you turn the other cheek in that facility, it's not going to be easy. It's hard. Is it the case that in the internal workings of, we say this, the social structure organization that's behind the scenes sort of a thing, how organized is it in terms of the actual governance system? Like is there one guy that rises to the top? They're gangs. Typically. But even the gangs, you probably have. There's hierarchy in the gangs. And there are gangs without a doubt. And the officers are fully aware, right? This is, again, they have to deal with the population as it is. They can't pretend like it's not that way. So they know the gangs, they know the groups, and they align. And oftentimes they're aligning in ways that are bad. You know, you might align regarding an ideology of hate about someone or some other group. But you also might align just from an ethnic way as well. Or you might align from the background or gang initiation kind of stuff. Right, to be a part of something, protection in that. But there, I mean, these men have families on the outside. And these men are deeply wounded and hurt. I have to say, in terms of the types of things that these men seem to have been there for, homicide was top on the list. And also crimes related to fentanyl. Those were there. Now, the homicide, it wasn't like cold blooded murder. It was some bad people fighting, right, that led the death to someone. It wasn't like somebody just walked into a house and started shooting people. It was probably a really seedy scene to begin with. One thing leads to another, anger overflows and someone's left. Right. I mean, you can only imagine how many, how many persons are in prison that, you know, it was, if I could just go back that moment. It is without a doubt. The natural consequences of that one moment of not controlling myself or not taking the drug or whatever that they might have been. Wow. And we talked, like, for example, one of the things I talked to the men about was anger. And, you know, you may not know this, but anger is a response to an injustice. Wow. I see he's still reading his St. Thomas. This is good. People don't understand the humor there. That's because he's a Thomistic theologian. So the sort of, Thomism 101 is understanding that anger is a response to an injustice. Real or perceived. Real or perceived, is correct. Right. So being a choleric, I perceive anything as an injustice. And I am constantly on the end of that. I ask myself, why do I always have so many choleric friends? I don't know what I do. I don't know. Because choleric friends can't be friends with a choleric very easily. Well, I must be, I must gravitate toward them too. Yeah, but you're sort of, you get the sanguine thing going, right? So it's nice for a color to be around someone who's more sanguine. Oh, yeah. Well, that's true. Or more phlegmatic. It's kind of like putting, you know, chili pepper into something just for like a light kick. You know, you kind of need that complexity, you know, the little bit of heat to bring body to the thing. Yep. So we had a touch of gober and it's like tofu. A touch of gober. It's like tofu. It just picks up the flavor that's around, kind of goes with it. So, you know, I'm, yeah, I get it. All right. So going back to this point, I talked to the guys about anger as being a response to an injustice or perceived injustice and talked about how anger isn't necessarily sinful if it's a true injustice and it's proportionate. Then we started talking about different ways in which we can perceive injustices and become disproportionate in our reactions. You could see, you know, these guys really internalizing because a lot of their circumstances when the passion ran a monk, you know, and the anger became very inflated, extremely disproportionate, and either somebody died or somebody got hurt and it led them into the, you know, and that's that kind of idea of, if I could go back and maybe I was responding to a genuine injustice, but it should have been proportionate. Proportionate. And that's what's so hard about anger and why we need it because it's, if it's a response to an injustice, you know, your body is modifying itself based upon the apprehension, right? So you get the adrenaline, you know, your heart beats fast and You can feel it. the old ideas you see read because you, in those moments, you typically can't think well. That's why the old adage, count to 10, walk away, do whatever, because your body is so taking over that it sort of clouds your intellect at the moment. I noticed this in particular, whenever people get angry, they go to their easiest language. Remember how people will say in the old days, did you learn Italian from your grandparents growing up or your parents or whatever the language was? Like, no, just the cuss words. Because when they got angry, you revert to the thing that you don't have to use reason for. And I noticed that in Italian, so whenever I would get angry in Italy, I would just, I'd start saying something to someone in English and then I realized I was speaking. It's true. It's a good point because it slides out more easily, requires less reason. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just, it's a difficult passion to wield. I mean, our Lord obviously, we talk about our Lord is not having the passions as passions. The reason we call them passions, today we call them emotions. But for St. Thomas, you call them passions because that we're passio, right? It's something that we suffer. Something happens to us. Like we apprehend something, like let's say you see someone mistreating your mom, right? You're going to get angry. You apprehended something and then something happens to you inside that you don't get to control perfectly. You can't control the emotional reaction to it. You suffer it and you've got to guide it and hone it, shape it, but you can't control the fact that you're having the reaction. That's just happening to you. And that's where you need the cognitive faculty. That's where you need the cognitive faculty, you know, majorly to give you direction. And to do what your passions are blind in that sense, right? Right. Yeah. I mean, you're full of steam, but you have to come in above it. Yeah. And with a lot of these men, they were burying out tommism because whether they realized it or not, the circumstance in which they found themselves was that the passion overwhelmed their cognitive faculties and somebody ends up dead or seriously wounded and you end up in prison and your family ends up feeling an enormous amount of pain for your absence. And this is a massive consequence for a moment for everybody involved. Can you imagine having all the emotions? Because we're made to have emotions, passions. Can you imagine having them all under the order of reason, like all at your beck and call? Isn't that amazing? So, as I said, our Lord didn't sort of the idea behind the Medieval is that the Lord did not have the passions. He had the emotions, but he employed them. So like when he wants the assistance of anger to drive the money chains out of the temple, he has the perfectly proportionate amount of anger to the situation. And it's never out of control of his own reason and will. And I think that for a choleric, just saying as a choleric, one of the reasons as I get older that I find myself getting a bit more phlegmatic is because you get tired of destroying things. Like you get angry and yes, you get a lot of things done, you get people hopping, you get things moving, but you leave a lot of wreckage behind. And you realize that if I just slowed down a bit, I need the anger, it's an injustice, but if I would just slow down a bit, I wouldn't have to go back and fix things. I just want to go on the record. What? I forgive you. Thank you. This is a public apology. I interpreted that way. Well, let me ask a follow up question for that. Just because it's an area I don't really work in a lot, but what do you make of the difficulty that these men that have entered into a new social situation, they're forced into it. They might not have any hope of ever getting out. So eventually, you adjust. You say, this is my life. This isn't living on the outside anymore. This is my new reality. And you do watch people that get educated sometimes. They do amazing things, conversions, et cetera. We even got a saint that lived his life after committing murder in a hot moment. Yeah, exactly. Turned out to be an amazing saint. Yeah. I think it was guillotined in the end. Yeah. I think so too. Jacques. Yeah, I just read something about him the other day. It was fascinating. Jacques, something. But of course it's Jacques. That's what every Frenchman says. Jacques, right? It's true. It was one of these cases where he genuinely stole bread for his hungry family. Yeah, it was something like Jean Valjean. Exactly. It was one of those situations. And so when they get out, if they get out, it seems to be so hard for them to stay out. I was working with police when I was in Franklin, kind of the ride-along chaplain deal. And so many of the men that these cops that I was working with had put away, they would get notifications when they'd be released from prison because they're just going to go right back in. And so they would just go look for them because they're going to do things to get back in because it would find it difficult to live back in the world. There was no change. Or they just can't function anymore outside. Did you talk to any of them about that? Well, this goes back to the... Repeat offenders or...? Well, you don't really have to talk about it because it's so obvious that the root causes remain. So if one of the root causes is a drug addiction, well, guess what? If drug addiction landed you in prison the first time, it's probably going to land you in prison the next time and the next and the next. If your root cause is an uncontrolled anger and you keep putting yourself into situations where that is going to be sparked left and right, guess what? The outcomes are not going to be any different. And sometimes what can happen is the experience of prison can work against you. It can make you more hardened or it can make you more weak in a given area. So having opportunities for these men to be able to say, hey, wait a minute, here's something for my hard circumstance and my hard situation. Again, they did bad things to people. There's no question about it. And to be quite honest, rare is the inmate that's going to tell you they didn't. They might tell you why they felt justified in the moment or maybe they feel like there was a little eye for an eye. But they're not going to say that they didn't cause harm, at least not the ones that come to our program. But I think that the difference between somebody going out and staying out has to do with change. It's interior change. And that's really what we're trying to speak to. And you know what's interesting? To give St. Thomas even more props as though he needs them for me. As I talk to them just about this simple issue of anger, and disproportion, anger, and we flesh things out more and more, you could see as well as they reflected back to me afterward, how it was that they could go back with that understanding and maybe answer some questions as how they ended up where they did. And they were been looking for answers. So I know a lot of people think, you just go in and you just tell them that God loves them. But that's a part of it. You're looking for conversion. But they need to understand what is wrong. They need to understand the mechanics of what happened. And when you say, hey look, your cognitive faculties, that your intellectual will, are supposed to be ruling the roost here, and your passion is just exploded. And nobody, when you have a firebomb of anger go off, it's not going to be pretty for anyone. You've not had the formation to curtail any of that, just the opposite. And they've had no understanding of their own inner working. And if they had a little bit of this rational psychology of talk about what's going on, they might have a greater fighting chance. Not the least of which of course is dealing with drug addictions and drug problems and alcohol addictions and alcohol problems, and general family dysfunctions and things that lead to, as we might say, core wounds, profound wounds that cause a desire for need, for self exuding, as well as maybe even a type of rebellion. So you have all those things kind of going on. But they need real answers because they have to get out of this hole that they're in. Right, the spiral. They need real answers. That's kind of a hell. It is. And so when they see a light and you're saying something that sparks something true, and they're grabbing onto that, and they are assimilating this because they are trying to find their way. They're also trying to understand how they got there. You take that with an experience of, yes, we love and care about you. We know you did bad things. And we also love and care about the people that got hurt. Right, but we're here for you now. And but that's not enough. Well, imagine you, especially when you're going back to think about just one spot in time. And you're trying to make sense of that one spot in time that completely altered the trajectory of the rest of your life. You know, I think about the great book by C.S. Lewis, no pun intended, The Great Divorce. And in The Great Divorce, there's this place called Gray Town, which is either the sort of anti-chamber of purgatory or it's just permanent hell. And in this gray town, for those of you who have not read the book, you can kind of create your own world. You can imagine it and you get it. But you get it and that none of it's actually real and you know it's not real, which makes it that much more of a hell. It's a projection of your own mind. And so what happens in hell is people live further and further away from each other because they keep. They can't see each other. They can't see each other. And yet they want communion. They were tormented by their desire. There's this image of Napoleon that they went out to go see, thinking that he'd be a really interesting individual to talk to these people that are in hell. And so they take the thousand year trek to go find him and he's just walking back and forth in this palace of Versailles that he's imagining that's sort of existent but not existent except in his mind. And he's walking back and forth saying it was Josephine's fault. It was the general so-and-so's fault. Stuck in the moment. He's stuck on that same moment of the loss of the Russian front. And that's where I could see these guys getting without the light of the gospel and the teaching of the saints, the doctors, the church to say, this is who you are and this is why this happened. And here's how to get out. Even if you can't get out of the prison, you can get out of your mind and out of the sin. Right. And that's where it happens to me. It's an interior journey. You know, and I encourage them when they go back and say, look, do not lay out this big program in your in your mind about what you're going to do exteriorly. It's don't start there. Yeah. Start inside. Start on your interior. And start inside there, lay some roots and then look for strategic moments for that to have expression. If that little expression gets chopped down by somebody's sickle because they're full of hostile anger, that same root will spring up yet another branch. That's a good way to put it. But if you just start with a branch that has no roots and I think it's shot down, you're back to where you started. Yeah. Nothing good. No real change occurred. Which is us on the outside have this difficulty, right? That instead of changing something interiorly that we need to change to be able to get out of our personal little prisons and vices that we're stuck with and the spiraling mental cliffs that we go over, we can change our external environment constantly. Right. So it's never to deal with the interior life. Right. Just keep changing it externally, get a new plan externally, do something else externally. And as the saints say, it's one of the greatest forms of that sin we call sloth or achadia because it's this sort of constant frenetic movement like Napoleon. And it's also delusional in the sense that it allows you to maintain an illusion. Yeah. That you're making progress or you're, yes, exactly. As long as you post it. If you don't post it with a peace sign, it didn't really exist. Yes. Always post your delusions. So, well, you know. I was, I gotta say, the funniest thing about these sort of, everyone posting their pick of this, that or the other. I've been on the receiving end of a lot of those. Not the one they're taking a photo, of course. Right. But like take a picture of this for me or whatever else. Right. And you get to see the before and after. And the photo looks great. The reality before and after. I mean, it's like, you just projected a life that does not exist. Exactly. For you especially. Yeah, I get it. Then you have to live with that. Everyone is staging a moment. Then you have to live with that saying that's not really my life. Yeah, that's not really my life. You know, it kind of reminds me and are we? Yeah. Okay, so this is kind of be my last thing. Okay. All right. Before we go. Before we go. So it all reminds me of phenol. Of what? Phenol. Okay. It's a chemical. Yeah, I don't believe in chemicals. I believe in the angels. That's a whole other podcast, isn't it? So when I was in an undergraduate chemistry lab, we were... Oh no, here we go. We were using a chemical. This is going to be a... Strap it in. No. Put your feet up, people. No, no. This is a good one. So we were using a chemical called phenol. Now, you know, college kids, we're not real keen on reading all the warnings. Yeah. You're just kind of like, what do I need to do when you dive into it? So somewhere in this middle of this three hour lab, where there's small quantities, but nonetheless quantities of phenol involved, the professor just announced, make sure that you read all these materials regarding safety, especially when handling a phenol. He said, because it will burn your skin. However, you should know that the first thing it does is dead in the nerve ending. So you won't know that it is burning and blistery. How deceptive of a chemical is that? And we all looked down, half of us had blisters on our fingers, because that's it. And you realize in that moment, I wish I had had pain. Oh, this is a great topic. Maybe we should do it for the next one. This is a great topic. I wish I had had pain. It would have worn me. Yes, it would have worn me. And I would have been able to wash it off. This is a great, great... Kind of that whole idea of just leaving on the surface of things and keeping ourselves so preoccupied and busy that we're numb and we're not allowing ourselves to experience, maybe some pain that needs to be experienced, to look into some areas that need looking that are otherwise challenging to us. And it allows us to kind of circle around them or avoid them or skate above them. But it's a bit like that analogy of phenol. See, it wasn't that bad, right? No, it was real. It was a good chemistry lesson. Usually when we do, before we go, it's something like... Life-hearted. Food. No, I wanted to get this in because it was really in the previous topic. No, it's great. But let's bookmark that because, you know, I think I might have mentioned this in the previous episode, but even St. Thomas says this great line I found in the sentences once, where he says that, God is the author of pain. We don't want to say that because we think the pain of sin, which is not the author, we're the author of that one. But actual pain, of course, is the author. That's why you have endings on your tips of your fingers and your endings, etc. You need a certain modicum of pain to live in a world where you're going to bounce off against things. Feedback. You need feedback in a physical, real world. And tuning it out doesn't not make it go away. Things get worse. Yeah, awesome. So what's your... Before we go on... Well, I learned something today, and I'm dealing with the new building work that we're putting up soon, the chapel and all the other environments, etc. All these... How much you complicate my life? Yeah, I do. That's one thing. It's a complicated process, but I'm in the phase now. We're moving into construction documents soon, which means that there's just a meeting every single day about something. And today we were dealing with some HVAC problems. For those of you listening, HVAC means like air conditioning and heating. Yeah. So... I think most homeowners probably know what that means. Well, I never heard the word HVAC. Because you weren't a homeowner. No, no. We didn't even wear home-made braces. Wait, wait, wait. We had like boilers and... That's true. You were up there. You know, up in the Northeast, like we didn't have HVAC. Geothermal is really cool. I won't be able to afford it. It's like four times the cost of normal HVAC. But basically it's a massive radiator underneath your land. So instead of putting the water into small coils, right, and changing the temperature. You're heating the floor. Yeah, but so... The building itself. Yes. Well, not just the floor, right? You can, even air conditioning. Because if you go down so far, imagine soil is keeping... Soil is kept at a cool temperature. It's hot outside. Warm when it's cold outside. And so you're just... You're putting it through coils in the ground that they put in. Oh, so you're cooling... You're cooling in the summer time you're cooling it. In the winter time you're warming it because it's warmer than the ambient air. So you spend very little. It's massively expensive to put in. To itself because it measures quite a lot of linear feet. Oh, it is. But it's really, really a cool idea. Plus you don't have these big units hanging out everywhere. If you spring a leak. Yeah, I was talking about that. But I just thought it was so cool that someone looked at a radiator or whatever the normal process is by which this stuff happens. Let's use the earth for that. Let's just use the earth for that. That's cool. Yeah, it is. I wish I could do it. So if you would just provide me with that extra cash, we're going to go geothermal and be very green. Are you talking to someone at the end of this? You. Someone out in the background. No, I'm talking to the vicar general right here. Yeah. So it's time to go. God bless you all. Oh, yes. God bless you all. Ciao now. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of From the Rooftop. For updates about new episodes, special guests, and exclusive deals for From the Rooftop listeners, sign up at rooftoppodcast.com. And remember, for more great ways to deepen your faith, check out all the spiritual resources available at tanbooks.com. And we'll see you again next time. From the Rooftop.