 On Tuesday August 31st the Ministry of Education held a virtual meeting and that's with stakeholders in the education sector. Now at that meeting Jam's registrar went on to Professor Ishaq Oluwede, went on to announce that the cut of Mac for Jam is no longer uniform. This has basically been scrapped. He had earlier told different institutions to go ahead and decide on their own cut of Macs and the lowest should be 120. 120 should be the basic minimum and different states, different institutions developed and decided on their own cut of Macs and they submitted that to Jam. So Jam has gone ahead to adopt this, say this is now what it would be. University of Meduguri proposed 150 as its cut of Mac. It's Mandan Fodyo University, Sokoto proposed 140. The Pan-Atlantic University proposed 210. University of Lagos, Unilag proposed 200. Lagos State University, Lasso proposed 190. Covenant University, Otta proposed 190 and Bayero University, Kansas State Buk proposed 180. So these different cut of Macs that varies from school to school has been adopted. So no more uniform cut of Mac unlike when before, it's like 180 across all schools. Let's discuss this with a professor, a bigger pardon, a lecturer in the Department of Philosophy, University of Lagos, Mr. Dan Ikere. Good morning. Thank you for joining us. Good morning. Thank you so much. So I want to get your initial reaction to this. Would you say this is good news or is this a sign of a declining education standard in Nigeria? Thank you. I will look at it from different angles. We need to understand very clearly that over the years, universities have actually always fixed their own cut of Macs. What Jam has been doing at Marapa is that Jam will simply fix one we can call the past Mac. The Mac that will qualify you to either take a cost UGME, which is the newly introduced for UGME, that with respect to cut of Mac is the event that I've always decided on cut of Mac. And that is influenced by the performance by year. Now, this time around, Jam will say that individual universities should decide on what it is. What I find difficult to understand is whether they are saying that the university should choose the past Mac and as well decide on cut of Mac. If that is the situation, beautiful, then what would be the relevance of Jam? Even at the end of the day, the universities are taking all the decisions with respect to everything admission. If Jam's responsibility is just to conduct exam and maybe use your admission letters, that the universities can as well do. So, and one major effect that will come out of this is that some particular places can decide that their cut of Mac or past Mac is tricky. And we all go to the same national youth service. We all are in the same degrees. We go to the government and we show you that the ones that we were very interested with 50 will be the first to get a job. Okay. Mr. Danikere, that's why I was asking you at first that the fact that the sims are cut of Macs are no longer uniform across schools and that secondly, these institutions decide their cut of Macs and it's been lowered. Do you think this is going to have an impact on, you know, standards of education in the country? I think that has already been made from my presentation because clearly you will find situations in which some places who decide that their cut, okay, look at the unity schools, for instance. You find that the cut of Mac for some states is as low as five, three, ten. You know why for some places it is more than seventy, more than forty, more than thirty. So what do you make of that? That's the same situation that has been introduced by Jamp right now. And I think that the best would have been that as long as Jamp still exists as a body, it should fix the past Mac. The past Mac is not necessarily cut of Mac. So it is on the basis of that past Mac that selection programs can be done by the various universities for post UTME. It's on the basis of the post UTME and the general performance in Jamp that individual universities will now pick their cut of Mac to admit students. But to say that everything should be decided by various universities, I'm sure there's something going wrong somewhere. Let's go back and look at the system the way it was run before. Danny Carrick, do you think that the system, the way it was run, was the best way to do it? Was the post UTME really very, very necessary even after passing Jamp? And also with the way that it is currently structured, do you think that maybe that removes the need to write post UTME? Thank you. If I got you correctly, I want to believe that the post UTME is very necessary. It's very important because at the end of the day, Jamp will simply be a sufficient pool for the few that you seek for post UTME, where you see those that have what it takes from those at the notch. Now that will create a clearing house that will create that opportunity so that you'll be able to moderate in terms of numbers. Now at that point, universities will equally set their own exams to be sure of those who actually would jump themselves and pass. Although the challenge can be even with the position you see some ladies here and there, but then at that level it will be minimized. And it will be more specific. So I think that yes, without being there post UTME is necessary. Yes, it's necessary. So that the universities can actually set their own standards at that point. You must recall that they are all not at the same level or the universities are not at the same level. As we speak today, the universities are already looking at operating 60% postgraduate programs and 40% undergraduate. So we must develop along that line. And the best way to get it done is for as long as Jamp remains a body to be a clearing house where this selection process will start and end with the universities themselves. Therefore, universities will decide on both past marks and cut off marks. My worries might just eventually clear up in a different time. Okay, just to clarify that Professor Isha Koloyode said that with this new arrangement, the minimum cut off marks for universities is 120 and 100 for polytechnics and colleges of education. And then these institutions went ahead to fix their own marks at, you know, above that figure just to ensure that clarity there. But I want to ask you about the quality of graduates that are being churned out of the Nigerian university system vis-à-vis these cut off marks that are currently in place right now. Do you think that the standards, you know, for entrance into secondary schools, into universities should maybe even be increased? And do you think the examination should be more rigorous? Well, generally, you know the way examination is done. As a matter of fact, it tells an aspect of not necessarily everything. The idea is that what we have been taught, we have been subjected to examination to know whether you have any understanding of what's going on. The fact that people say like that does not mean that they are useless, does not equally mean that they are totally dull, is not unlikely that you might focus on a different aspect or whatever. Now, when it comes to issues of admission, it is critical that we look at it comprehensively. The unity schools, like I said, will just be a typical case in point where they are all supposed to be unity schools, where standards are supposed to be the same, and yet the entrance to these schools, you have various levels, the various standards, may why they are all coming out with the same certificate. In some cases, tomorrow you will find out that these ones, even when they are not better than others, might be the ones who end up being directors here and there in government establishment. So, my take is that as long as these things are of the same level, the entrance examination that Jam usually conducts should be the clearing points, and the standard should be the same. Even bringing things down to what we need is lower in the standard, and I am not surprised that that is happening. It is not that because Nigerians are getting dull by the day, but it is quickly because 30 political parties have played. So, we must look at all these issues, and I think that Jam should have the same. Can you be more specific regarding the political interest you mentioned regarding the law in schools? That will be open to everybody to examine. There is nothing specific about it. What specific issues again are you looking at when you see the exact people are these? Some people are actually with three, some are actually with 50, some are actually with 150. What else do you want to look at? That is a political interest. Otherwise, if all of us are going into a school, why should somebody from A point have a different score from my own who is coming from B? The other one is coming from C. The school is the same. Everybody should measure their standard. Danica, what figure would you recommend that Jam places as its cut-off mark? If you say 120 is too small, would you suggest that they stick with 200? Yes, thank you. There has been a standard before. There has been a standard before. The six-owned universities, the pass mark used to be 180, and the standard used to be 200. Even at that, you see people whose cut-off mark would still not find admission because of competition. You discover that sometimes if 200 is the pass mark, the cut-off mark would be around 250. And for that 250, you find a lot of persons who are qualified. So now bring it to 180. I think people are no longer scoring higher figures. It makes me so worried. So I think we should go back to the normal. We should, because of any particular individual and lower the standard, let everybody go to the universities. Let those who are qualified for universities go for universities. Those who are qualified for other institutions, other levels, should go there. At the end of the day, everybody is going to universities. We do not have, you know, a couple of hands in other technical areas. We have stood down, greeted them because of the wide passes on universities. Universities are not meant for everybody. Even though we encourage everybody to try. One of the things you just mentioned is the fact that even when people score 200, you know, there's still no, you know, space for all of them to fit in. So is this one of the fears that you have? Reducing the code of mark to 180 or to 150, it increases the number of people who would, you know, reach that pass mark and wouldn't be able to find a space in the university. If I got you correctly, the idea of 120 for me is just to create a wider pool where a lot of things will not happen. I think with 180, 200, we see a lot of people meeting up and some are being dropped because of issues of maybe space and, you know, establishment or whatever, then why bring it up to 120? Why bring it up to 120? So in my thinking, which is my kind of opinion, rather than lower the standard to meet the position of those who are not doing well, increase it for people to rise up to that level, people to aspire, people to work harder, so that the idea of, oh, because we can't do this, then they will come to our level, should be varied. The investment must be in place for standard measurements. Mr. Ikere, according to a recent university ranking of, you know, universities globally by Webimetrics, it showed that no Nigerian university ranked in the top 1,000 at all. When we saw University of Ibadon Covenant University above Himiawala University, they're ranking 1,196, you know, and so on and so forth. So do you think that to, you know, prop up the Nigerian education sector and, you know, it's important for us to, you know, just like you've said, go ahead to increase entry standards into these universities? Thank you. Now, the issue of ranking of universities, for me, is the one of his own. Yeah, it's in the one of his own, because the parameters being used to do this judgment sometimes can be questionable, because when you look at the way this is articulated, you want to find out if maybe Nigerians are doing well, then you come to Nigeria, for example, 10, 20, 30, even 100,000 and these people, hundreds of millions, you don't get the full account. Now, even if the standard is so low here, for instance, is it not Nigerian doctors and the rest that are going out and doing exploits? The school here, you know, from the places that are not making their first 100 and the rest of them, when the graduates of this decision go out, they meet up with whatever people surpass them. So the challenge we have really, is the question of the environment, not that the standard is low. So forget about whatever evaluation they are doing and the run came and the rest. Yes, I agree that we seem to do more, we need to, you know, continue to put resources in place to ensure that we fortify ourselves, you know, for the point of producing the best. The fact that we are not among the so-called non-bolts that are ranking does not mean that we have to wear. Alright, I also want you to share your thoughts on the, you know, the space for growth, you know, of other institutions of learning. Like you mentioned, you know that everybody needs to go through the university. There's polytechnics, there's other, you know, smaller institutions that exist that Nigerians can also learn very important life skills. You know, is this also an opportunity to get into that discussion and see ways that we can better equip these other institutions of learning to be more valuable to Nigerians? Well, if only it would play out in that way, it would have been good. The challenge is that, it's not going to push this report to those teachers who are talking about. We still have this challenge of everybody wanting to be in the university because the way we do things here is we are not the university graduating. There seems not to be any value placed on the president. We don't look at what you are able to do. We look at certificates. So that's the challenge. If somebody with a higher national diploma for instance is in a particular establishment, there's somebody with a degree, and even when the world with higher national diploma is doing better, is the degree they are looking at. They are not looking at the production. They are looking at productivity. They are not looking at any of those things. The effort is on the certificate. So as long as we apply certificates, you will continue to have that talent. Why would I say my title is polytechnic? When after everything has acquired, even when it's better than somebody with a degree, you will raise the degree higher. So it will not affect so many things. And it will continue to be like this. Until the trend is reversed. By way through the activities, it's equally constant. So when you apply for a certificate, you don't look at confidence anymore. And I think that is part of the problem. But how do we change this? Danika, you can hear us. I'm asking, how do we change this in the Nigerian educational space? Okay. One way of doing it, because a lot of this at the end of it boils down to the issue of employment. Yes. You know, at the end of the day, others are advertising for the green holders. Instead of those with confidence and no constitution is given to those with national diploma, higher national diploma at the rate, then we will continue to have that. But I think the trend is made open that they are looking for qualified hands who are capable of doing this kind of job. Then you allow everybody to come. You test. But from the ADBAT, you have already limited so many people. In some cases, you will find that they are asking for not only the degrees, they are equally asking for years of experience. So where do they gain the experience from to join you all? You know, so these are the challenges we are having. So employment is part of it. But if we can make it open, in such a manner that you are looking for competence, not certificates, test everybody who is coming on board. So that will reduce, because already if you give the issue of the recruitment to reactants to do for you, they will go through all of this. But if you assess your data, if everyone has already agreed, then obviously you are going to be meeting a lot of things. And so many people practices to continue to have. So everybody will fight to get a degree. So from the point of employment, we must begin to address these issues. I also want you to speak on the fact that, ASU currently is threatening that they might go back to another strike. Or they will have a meeting and decide on striking. The meeting is meant to be held today. And this is mostly because of the failure of government to fund institutions better, equip universities better. So we have had this conversation for a long time. When and during universities don't seem to have the funding and the equipment. The last time we spoke with the ASU president, he spoke about certain universities using stoves, kitchen stoves as bouncing burners. That's just an example of the level of infrastructure in universities. Now we are adding that to a situation where it's likely that people who scored 130, 140 in jam will be gaining entry into universities that are still poorly equipped. So is that a huge challenge with regards to the quality of graduates that eventually get into the labor market four years later? In fact, you are good. A workman is as good as his tools. So even what you have in the future, is this kind of challenging case of infrastructure. Then you will always have challenges even with the outcome. Another of the countries, a lot of people do understand this is for ASU strikes. ASU members are committed to intellectuals and academics. It's like, look at the fish. The fish can never be happy outside the water. Lecturers are never happy outside their working environment. So global strike must be the last resort. The challenge again is that the question of those uses, stoves and the rest of it that might just even be a better situation because when you look at the issue of funding respect to universities, it goes beyond that. And until you fund your system, it doesn't bother anybody why our products will go outside. And outside that they are doing fantastic. It's because of the environment. So once you put the facilities in place to get the best out of it, we have the best hands. And our students are equally very brilliant. But when the work man's tools are so challenging, the product of that is going to have a challenge as well. So we must make sure that we don't leave this crusade to even ASU alone. The entire country must continue to demand that the government funds education adequately. Absolutely. That is the only way you can get the best. We are trained in these schools. So until you put the best facilities in place, you are not going to get the best results. All right. That's my take on that really. We'll say thank you for sharing your thoughts with us this morning. Thanks for your time. We wish you a very interesting Friday ahead. Thank you so much. It's my pleasure. Of course, we had initially scheduled a conversation this morning on Zamfara and the current situation there, but it's been a little trouble getting in contact with our guests. So we're going to have to move that interview to a later date and maybe just share a little bit about it this morning. And right after that, we're going to be talking sports. So take a short break. When we come back, just a little bit on Zamfara and Scott will be joining us to share his views on the Transfer Window in the EPL currently. We'll be back.