 Thank you very much for keeping it to I-254. Very good morning to you. My name is Ram Aguco. As always, it's a pleasure being with you. If at all you're just joining us, you're just in time for the next conversation of the day. And today it's all about understanding creative and critical thinking. That's right. Today, what is creative thinking? What is critical thinking? And what role do they play in our day to day lives? I'm joined by Dr. Ofunja Lawrence. He is a lecturer at Kuaia University, Karibusana. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. The last time we look up with you, we met a month ago. About a month ago. It's been that long. Yes, time flies. Time flies. That really does fly. Make sure that you engage with us. All right? The hashtag is why in the morning. Give us your thoughts as regards to this. Why in the morning at Y-254 channel on Twitter and at Ram Aguco? Give us your thoughts. What is creative thinking? And how are you a creative thinker? Do you consider yourself a creative thinker? When it comes to problem solving, analyzing, today we are talking about creative thinking because in life generally, this thing applies in our day to day lives whether you are at school or at work. You need to have creative and critical thinking so that you can be able to execute whatever you do perfectly. How is it that you... What are your observational skills? Analysis? Interpretation? Reflection? Evaluation? We are talking about inference skills. Explanational skills. Problem solving skills. We are talking about decision making skills. How best can you make yourself a critical thinker in a way that makes you look good in the decisions you make? Because at the end of the day, it's all about you and how best you work yourself towards the future. Also give us your thoughts in regards to this. As we continue, we shall sample your feedback later on. Dr. Lawrence, Karibusana as always. Thank you. Let's first start by dispensing of these words that you are talking about. The linguistics. Creative thinking, critical thinking. They may look shallow, but they are different in definition. Yes. So let's start with the creative thinking first. What is creative thinking? So thank you for this invitation. It's important that I give a background before I move to this discussion of the day. So creative and critical thinking is a facet in philosophy, or it's a facet of philosophy, whereby it's a product of certain disciplines in philosophy such as logic and epistemology. So creative thinking and critical thinking from the mere understanding of the word creative, to be creative is to be innovative or to come up with novel ideas about something or newfangled aspects of something. For instance, your face to a challenge, how do you wade through that challenge? You have to be creative and on the other hand to be critical it simply means to see through issues whereby you are able to zoom in and zoom out. But I have to put a caveat to this Zoom in and zoom out as expressions in logic or philosophy in this context don't have to be understood from the perspective of camera, photography and all that. Was that the first thing that came to my mind? So by zooming in it means you go deeper into an issue. You analyze it. Yes, you pursue the ultimate courses or what informs this particular issue. You go to the root courses of the issue. But when you zoom out you move to the highest level that you can as far as that issue is concerned. You explore all the possible chances or angles. You don't just look at something unilaterally but you give it a holistic approach. You don't take anything for granted because assumptions have got no room in philosophy. And this is the issue that normally affects people. Assumptions. Yes. You assume something and then it backfires on you. You end up regretting why didn't I think of it before? You talked about analysis. Zooming in and zooming out. What difference is this? We are talking about creative thinking from anova thinka. Someone will say that I am a creative thinka and another person will say you are not a creative thinka. You are not a critical thinka. You are an overthinka. Is it different? Overthinka. Is it? And does it even exist? Overthinking. Because if thinking itself is thrilling, it's something that tends to escape the mind. What about now overthinking? I think it's a colloquial presentation of this idea about thinking. First, what is thinking and what is reasoning. It's very important to distinguish these two times. Thinking and reasoning. Because they are different. Not just nominally but also substantially they are different. Not just by name but also by their very substance. They are different. So thinking is a mental process. It's a thought process which encapsulates because when you are thinking it could be conscious or unconscious. But when you are reasoning reasoning is now the conscious aspect of thinking. You are alert. You are not absent minded. You are not dead dreaming or you are not building castles in the air. You are focused on a particular issue and you really pursue it. That is the difference. And let me also accentuate this from the onset. Creative and critical thinking does not teach people how to think. But its concern is how would people think and how would people not to think. So it's about improving your capacity to reason. Yes. How should you reason or how should you think and how should you not reason and how should you not think and about what. And this is where now people normally get into logaheads with each other. Someone will say we just don't reason together. We just can't understand each other. It's in a workplace and people just don't get along because the reasoning capacity is different. What leads to that? Is it a problem of creative and critical thinking? It's a problem of expulsion. It's a problem of your interest in life. It's a problem of the barriers to creative and critical thinking. And I'll just mention a few of these barriers thereafter at some point in the course of this discourse. But I've been struggling with these two concepts. Should we really be talking of creative and critical reasoning or should we be talking of creative and critical thinking? Because I have an issue with that word thinking. Because if you pursue it further you will come to understand that the objectives of such a discipline in philosophy is to perfect how we reason about issues not how we think. And that's why maybe at some point I'll have to write something about this. My rationale or my reasons as to why I deem it wise or judicious to be termed as creative and critical reasoning and not creative and critical thinking. Because reasoning is in your view deeper more let's say of more quality in terms of the outcome and the analysis process everything the evaluation is deeper. It's very deep and at the end a critical and creative reasoner allow me to let's shift it now to from thinking to reasoning. Because you have to be you have to reason clearly right you have to reason consistently you have to reason accurately and you have to reason logically. And that is why reasoning is an aspect of logic and what is logic? Logic is the sense of reasoning. Right? So you are able to see through issues big problems and pursue solutions such that at the end of the day you appreciate a learning process as a transformative opportunity that takes you from dependency state to autonomy state from a status of depending to a status of being liberated. That is the purpose. Now I want us to give different scenarios because now some may wonder how this affects them at a personal level. But before that is there there is something called the relationship between these two the creative and the critical. What is it that that joins them together? The aspect that joins these two creativity and reasoning or creative and critical reasoning or thinking whatever one may wish to call it for as long as you can justify it is that one is anchored on the other for you to be critical it presupposes that you have been creative creativity is actually associated with fantasy or imagination many people just assume that we have external senses we also have internal human senses for instance fantasy or a sense of imagination is an internal human sense and the persons who are quite creative these are persons who have got a high sense of imagination these are persons who can mix different colors these could be artists and at the end of the day they come up with a very nice piece of work as a painted art because they are able to blend different colors to bring harmony musicians also they have got a very high sense of imagination because they are able to balance the different rhythms musical notes tones and all that notes so you have to be imaginative first before you begin being analytic being objective being evaluative or examining what you have already created as a result of your creativity yes applying this on a day-to-day life how can someone be able to assess and do self-evaluation and say that I think I'm a critical and I'm a creative and critical reason how thinker okay and at the beginning you said that the focus ought to be in a workplace for instance we can expound it differently in life for instance yes many employers inasmuch as the systems have become systemic or they are the so-called cutels so go by the flow you have heard of such a deep state and all that or deep system the mark of somebody knowing that I've become a critical thinker is when you can demonstrate the following one are you able to know yourself because that is the beginning of really understanding what you can do as an individual because reasoning is an individual endeavor you've had some people say that you find somebody somebody is alone you greet the person how are you and the person tells you we are fine you say so who is we me myself and that I don't know for me it has never made sense that is just but a manifestation of how many of us are shackled by the ban of mobocracy the mob mentality right on the mob mentality you keep on thinking and assuming that you exist with the others right you cannot really come to the realization that I am an individual what about family I can take an initiative as an individual right what about family allow me to cite a certain other John Strachmel he wrote a certain SS entitled SS on Liberation or SS on freedom or emancipation it doesn't matter whichever word you use and the distinction here he makes what is the difference between the I and the we remember that the we is a product of the I's right but the I's is not a product of the we's right so individuals constitute or institute societies societies don't institute individuals so it's very important at the end of the day for you to be creative for you to be critical know the self know yourself first such that you are able to bring out this weaknesses and strengths right from yourself yes you are able to know this is what I can do this is what I cannot do right apart from that you are able to own up to responsibilities right so owning up to responsibilities also at a character trait of a critical thinking yes because you can stand by what you are convinced of these are my convictions I can stand by them and I can justify them I did this this is the reason as to why I did this right you don't just go by the flow and that is the bigger problem even in workplace you cannot really say this is right this is wrong right because you fear of being sucked but if you are creative and critical thinker you should not be fearful of such things because wherever you go the world be in a position to identify these are the brands of persons that we need because the world is lasting and yearning employers for persons who are creative and critical because that one adds value employers don't just want persons who are dormant let me choose that one they want persons who will add value value addition what are you bringing on board right and you cannot know what you're bringing on board yes if you do not know yourself and you cannot identify your own weaknesses and strengths yes these are critical thinking is important especially at a personal level yes no by self first no by self first because that becomes the point of departure because you are able to to really even go deep and question things you are able to be reflective you are able to be analytic you are able to to experience a life of interiority right you are able to take stock and you are able to to know where you are heading to my brother there is this issue of critical thinking and like I said you are applying it in different areas yes in relationships how does this play a role meeting haling insults here and there it even happens in in offices yes that is actually a lack and a serious doubt of creative and critical thinking because somebody who is creative and critical at the end of the day you are able to be a beneficiary of something known as virtues of creative and critical thinking and one of these virtue is intellectual humility intellectual maturity you can be humble intellectual yes for instance many people struggle with this issue you ask a question it is clear that this person is naive to what you are asking but the person purports to answer you it's you don't lose anything by saying I don't know if you don't know you don't know yes instead of wasting too much energy to spill the beans of ignorance to the public if you don't know you don't know right so saying that I don't know if a question is posed to you it's just a manifestation of intellectual humility but is it wrong to say I don't know that's what I'm saying it's something very positive but many people say that at this age and time you should not say you don't know you should try to get an answer you are in an interview you can't say you don't know it's an interview it doesn't matter and that's why it's an interview they are trying to to find out which areas are you good and which areas are you not good and how can we better them so saying I don't know it's actually a buttress of what I said earlier on that you are you know thyself right instead of saying you know something and for sure you don't know because you cannot fake intelligence it's either you know or you don't know yes so such persons are actually desiapos of lack of creative and critical thinking because in as much as I don't agree with the opinion your proposal your idea it is as better as that one of mine that have not I add out or have not shared because opinions or ideas enjoy co-equality there is no opinion or idea that is better than the other right and when you are able to interact at that level it's known as the meeting of the minds you respect each other and that's why some people who have matured intellectually will disagree ideologically but will still go along and they will still laugh over cup of tea because there are better things that you can do together than that idea that can put those better things that lie in the posterity asanda right so it is it is okay to disagree absolutely but it doesn't mean that because we have difference in ideologies then we should have grudges it doesn't mean that way and if you ever come across such persons or you air out a very splendid or noble idea to your employer but that this one could be done this way but also you do it prudently right you don't do it in a manner that your employer will fail threatened any employer should be as objective as possible because it doesn't mean that if you are an employer if you are my boss today you are better than me and I am poor right a working environment is a place that we should learn from each other because learning is a continuous process right I have never come to a place written or indicated no further learning ahead right have you ever come across such a a billboard or such a signpost unless you are a PhD is there further learning ahead I am currently pursuing another undergraduate degree in law I am a Thaddeus student of law so learning doesn't end learning doesn't end be it formal informal or non formal learning is continuous so many employers should create an environment an enabling environment whereby they can benefit from their employees and that is why if you are to to get some greener pastures your potential employer may wish to know how was your working relationship in your former working place because it's not just about your conduct and all that but these employers the potential employers could be looking at which value addition are you bringing on board to the team can your former employer write something that so and so the current company the current organization the current institution is a beneficiary of the blueprint of so and so and that blueprint is always as a result of this so and so creative thing and reason and reason yes when there is a problem of interpretation yes I say something the way you see it is different from the way another person sees it how would you analyze such a scenario that's a very normal encounter because whenever I talk of interpretation interpretation does not enjoy homogeneity interpretation enjoys heterogeneity okay define that this means homogeneity means here in this context even if you are presented with the same exam a billion people there is no point you can your answers could be the same right or you are you are solving of a given problem will be the same right they'd be different because our interlets operate very differently and that is why I said earlier on each interpretation is welcome for as long as you can justify that interpretation the issue is validation can you validate what you are saying can you justify what you are telling us you don't just say it and fail to support it state it justify it or support it there you go and this is where things get rough because in our place or at home even in a family two people a couple they are arguing and the argument if you look at it it's a matter of interpretation of that particular dilemma but now one person fails to justify the interpretation and because you cannot justify your path you get mad that's why I said earlier on there are certain barriers to creative and critical thinking never ever allow your passions or your emotions to cloud your reasoning that will be the worst of it another thing is culture culture is a problem to creative and critical thinking another thing is how we are socialized socialization is also a problem let's talk about that that issue of culture how is that a problem are we talking about difference in bringing and how deep does culture go for an individual culture simply defined is a way of life right culture is a way of life and cultures are complex because we talk of the material and non material we talk of the tangible and the intangible culture so you will find some people telling you this is how we do things see when somebody tells you this is how we do things that is a dogmatic mind and creative and critical thinking you are not compatible with this dogmatic mind creative and critical thinking calls for objectivity be as liberal as you can but when you begin telling me this is how we do things in simple terms you are telling me I should not exercise my intellectual capacities to evaluate an issue it means no new ideas should be are welcome on the table absolutely I should just go by the floor because you have already told me this is how we do things if I try a new way I'll be considered an outcast right and I'll be ostracized who wants to be ostracized or to be considered you are an outcast very few can do that and even you have seen in this country from an instance of political sins right or from the political environment many people become psychophantic critical thinking has got no place in psychophantic minds because when you are psychophant you are simply telling us you have already surrendered your tools of reasoning your precoceive notions also take play here not really because ideas are communicated through actions when you act in a particular way we are able to interpret what is your thought process or about your thought process right so you cannot be psychophantic about a particular person about a particular ideology from January to January and there must be a problem you must have surrendered your reasoning tools right so um all right let me let me give example let me start from the political side and then I come to the corporate side yes in the political arena is it okay for you to like change your belief from one particular individual to another for example if someone will say I support who you who you damu for example if it is Lawrence Lawrence damu if it is Ramaguko Ramaguko damu is it okay for someone to just say that now that I have looked at Ram's idea at Ram's ideology I feel like I subscribe to Lawrence's ideology so next year during the elections I will not vote for Lawrence as I did in 2017 I will vote for Ram in the 2022 elections is that also taking place in this kind of conversation politics being the art of the possible or the feasible at times I wonder whether that makes sense because it is not sufficient to tell me that I'll support you no matter what for life for life that's a serious swearing that's a serious kind of it doesn't make sense because that is somebody who is first and foremost an opportunist right so opportunism is playing at the center stage and in this world not just human beings any other living organism will first and foremost strive to protect its interest self-preservation before any other absolutely and that's why in politics don't be cheated by these politicians that I'll do this for you I'll do this for you that one is outright nonsense because they are purposely there for their self-interest and if you look at this idea of the common good or mutual good taking an example of certain scholars like Adam Smith Adam Smith in his book Some Aspects of his book The World of the Nations and there is another book he wrote on is it ethical sentimentalism or moral sentimentalism he presents a very nice argument that taking an example of a butcher person and a baker what drives their interest is it you as a potential customer or it is them making profit na mabrata there's something you you mentioned there that's saying that every particular for example a politician you will say that I will do this for you if you vote for me and you're saying that is not something that you really subscribe to isn't that also going against intellectual freedom doesn't that also change the whole narrative of saying that we need to be critical thinking where you can be able to accept all things on the table and reevaluate because this politician we will say and not do but that we will say and do intellectual freedom no yes intellectual freedom but in this context it may not be applicable why going by history because history there is also another philosopher Hegel who talks about history that the driving force into history is the human reason or the logos and the product of history is human emancipation so if you want to be emancipated as a human being as an individual always be in touch be in tandem with your history the reason as to I am saying that does not add up is going by the modus operandi of how these politicians have been behaving right they are there that is a job right you have employed them you will pay them through the tax they are there first and foremost to protect their interest because the example I was citing of Adam Smith as to whether a baker and a butcher person their interest is you as a as a potential customer or it's about protecting their self preservation the answer in the latter they are there to protect their self interests right and common good is actually a product of an overflow or an overspilling of you having satisfied your personal interest can that ever exist now let's take a look at the corporate side now this issue of culture believing ascribing to a certain ideology you believe In an office where people say that you've been newly employed in a certain corporate sector and then they tell you so here, this how you work, when you come up with a new idea they'll tell you no, it won't work here, if you want to do that go home with it, this is how you operate here and there is no, apart from this there is no other law. What do you do in such kind of an office, in such kind of a corporate world where you want, you need that job to, you like to also employ your own aspects of critical thinking, yet at the same time there is so much bureaucracy for lack of a better term and that culture is there that ought not to be changed. That's a very right and apt question, it's happening all over, my attempted response to such persons who are experiencing that is the reason as to why change comes into place is identifying a need. And once you've identified this need, the best way of replacing something or the best way of doing away with something, the old ways is coming up with new things, new ideas. So persistence should guide this process, be as prudent as possible because if you do it in a manner that is so imprudent you'll be shooting yourself in the foot. But if you keep on persisting, you may even lose your job, you keep on going to that office with that idea every month, they will tell you man you're fired. You cannot, you cannot because as long as the idea does not in any way vitiate your job jurisdiction, it does not in any way vitiate or negatively affect the philosophy, mission and vision of that organization. You are protected because I saw a new amendment on this employment and labour law that currently even if you are being sucked summarily it should be documented, right? So this is a growth for the employees in the sense that they are protected within the law. For as long as you are doing the right thing, keep on pushing, keep on pursuing whatever you are focusing on. For as long as you do it prudently, for as long as you have realized that there is a need and for as long as you have realized the old ways can be replaced by this new way to give us a new sigh of relief. Now, let me apply the same thing now in a personal level. We move from the political to the corporate now to the personal. In relation to what someone says my husband or my wife or my fiance or whomever, these are with the thing. This is how they do it. In a way that you can't bring any new idea, he will not accept it at all. How do you handle such an issue creatively and critically? One, knowledge is power, right? When you are faced with such a situation, try to bake the person, try to come up with maybe some reading materials, try to share some information about what your intentions are. But let your intention not be the guiding principle because one element of creative and critical thinking is seeking for information, pursuing information. And you cannot pursue information if you are not in tandem with research. You have to keep on reading. So, induce this person into maybe some reading culture, induce this person into different scenarios indirectly. At the end of the day, you will have lowered this person into what you want. Yes, because this person is a victim of fundamentalism or being dogmatic that this is how I do my things. I cannot entertain any foreign or new ideas. It doesn't work that way. Does it also apply to introverts? I should say, with Godhead words here, that my take, introverts could be very deep thinkers. Introverts could be very deep thinkers because there is a lot in fresh that sit a quiesce man sises philosophicus. That if at all you remain silent for a moment, you will become a philosopher. Philosophers are deep thinkers. Philosophers are deep reasoners if I may also use that phrase. So, you cannot reason, you cannot think in a mob. That's a contemplation. Reflection actually. I talked of reflection. It mostly happens in isolation. Yes, take your time, take your time of it. Just be with yourself and take stock of what you have been doing, where you are and where you wish to be. I want us to wrap this conversation up and I want to give you just a minute to have a final word in regards to this critical and critical thinking or critical reasoning. What should be our take home to the youth, young, old person who is watching you right now? What would you like to live them with? That is your primary. Maybe you can talk to them. Allow me to say the following that one, invest in philosophy because the world is lasting for philosophical minds, persons who have pursued philosophy such that the future could be better. Two, it's not that the world could be in dire need of persons who reason and think critically. It's not a lack. The problem is how can they be motivated in the sense that there is a lot of dormancy. So how do we move from this stage of dormancy to a stage of being active, from being passive to being active. And lastly, philosophy pursues the whole. Many of us could be suffering from these aspects of taking things superficially, taking things from away perspective, the mob mentality. So it's a higher time that we begin living and existing as individuals because reasoning is an individual activity. It's not a we activity. So the I is important. The we is also important. But in this context, first and foremost, know thyself. Then the rest shall just fall in the rightful places. Thank you so much. What you said is quite deep is reasoning is an individual activity. It's not a group activity. If you find it difficult when you're in a meeting in the office, when you're at home, know that reasoning is an individual activity. As long as you do your part and you reason fast and do the analysis, it will really work best. Absolutely. Thank you so much. I want to thank everyone who is watching Nancy, Alice, Abuya, Nyongo, Berniz, Nduati, Kallale, Waayuna, Jeffa, Sonia, Mamba, Deno, Spark. Thank you so much, everyone, Kijana or Kibaki. Kijana or Kibaki. Thank you so much, everyone, for tuning in and being part of this conversation. I was with Dr. Lawrence Afunja, who is a lecturer at Kuaia. Thank you so much, Dr. Terry, for joining me today. Thank you. It was interesting. Thank you very much. My take on reasoning is an individual. And they should also fight barriers to creative and critical thinking because there are so many. Right from our families, even to our future life, even as we are adults, we keep on facing these challenges. So let us not go by the flow. Let us not just be passive. Let us be as active as possible. Let us keep on pursuing research through philosophy. Thank you so much. Reasoning is an individual activity. Passure research. Learn more. Read books. And if convincing them is a problem, give them a book somewhere. Let them read it. It has been a pleasure being with you together since the beginning of this show. This has been one in the morning. Thank you so much for being part of this show. Thank you for keeping me company from the beginning, now till the tail end. My name is Ram Maguko. I wish you well. Thank you so much. See you again next time for another edition of Why in the Morning. God bless you and may God bless the work of your hands.