 Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii, where we discuss the impact of change on workers, employers, and the economy. I'm your host, Cheryl Crozier-Garcia, inviting you to join in the conversation. Please call in with your questions or comments to area code 808-374-2014 or tweet us at thinktechhi.com. Today we're starting a series of shows where we will be discussing social groups and how they have both positive and negative impacts on society. We're very fortunate to start the discussion with critical thinker at large, Chris Shelton, who has been studying cults for the past several years and who is himself a survivor of Scientology. If you recognize Chris, it's because he was featured on Leah Remini's show on A&E, Scientology, and the aftermath. Today, Chris is going to help us understand the impact of cult thinking on those who join these organizations, as well as how those who choose to leave these groups manage to rebuild their lives. Chris is joining us live via Skype from his home in the continental U.S. Welcome, Chris. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me on. I'm so glad that you were able to join us, because I think here in Hawaii, as geographically isolated as we are, we think that cult organizations or cult types of behaviors don't affect us, but they do. And so what I'd like to hear from you, you were a member of the Seagourg, which is sort of the clergy of Scientology. How did that, shall we say, limit your ability to think independently for yourself and create an environment in which you could be abused and preyed upon by people that had negative intentions? Yeah. It was pretty bad. It's a pretty cloistered group. And Scientology, we refer to these groups as destructive cults, because while a cult can be any group of people with a common belief or idea, a destructive cult carries with it the connotation that there's something wrong with the level of involvement or the attitude or approach of such groups. And in this, in my case, and in the case of far too many other groups, they sort of inculcate an us versus them mentality, where it's a kind of black and white thinking, where if you're part of the group, you're good or just or whatever or right. And if you're not part of the group, you're evil, blackhearted, horrible, and somehow must be dealt with or handled. But lots of organizations have these kinds of concepts. I was raised Catholic and our belief system said that there were certain things you needed to do to get to heaven, and if you didn't do them, there were other plans for you. So how is that that kind of, what we would consider, say, mainstream religions or mainstream social thinking? At what point does it become damaging? I would say the point is where it becomes a matter of you can no longer be friends or be associated with people who are not members or who are not members in good standing is how Scientology classifies it. If you were to speak out publicly against Scientology like I have done, then you are ostracized by this group. And the members of that group can no longer buy the dictates and rules of the group itself. They can no longer associate you with you, whether they want to or not. And this kind of thing is what separates families, business associates, long term friends. When I made the decision to speak out publicly, I did so because I had been made aware of this, disagreed with it so strongly that I lost a fiance, I lost friends I had for over 20 years practically overnight. That is an extremist group, and that goes far beyond what the demands that Christianity or Buddhism or something will put on a member. So there's a line there. And I think that when you're crossing over a line into where they're invading your personal life where you're not allowed to have secrets or things that you're not going to tell the group about, very invasive. And these are some of the red flags to use to identify such groups. I find it interesting that Scientology has a policy that has been discussed on Leah's show as well as in other forums. You've talked about it on your podcasts where you're not allowed to talk about what is going on within the group, outside the group, but then on the other hand you're expected to snitch on your fellow Scientologists inside the group. It seems kind of like a really sort of schizophrenic social model in which there is acceptable and unacceptable trash talking. Yes. Within the group, it's a high control group is another way of describing these groups. And not only are they invasive and demanding of your time and your resources, usually money, but there's a level of control that is unprecedented in say a social club or sports activity or even a political group. These groups are not going to come to your home and invade your life and this sort of thing. Scientology does. And so you have a snitching culture where there's a peer pressure that goes on where if some member becomes disaffected, it becomes slightly disillusioned with what's going on. The other members see that as a grim warning sign and feel it's their moral duty to report on that person in order to get that person in trouble so that they can be dealt with. And that's pretty Orwellian. And the other aspect of that is that you must always present a smiling, happy face to the world at large because everyone has to know that Scientology, for example, is the best organization, the best religion, the best of all possible moralities. And therefore that should be reflected in the attitude of all Scientologists to the public at large that everything is great. Everything could never be better. It is always the best of all possible worlds, even if the person is smiling while they want to kill themselves. And while I say that with a bit of a smile, it's actually an extremely serious thing because that's actually how things are in that group. Yeah, some of the stories that are coming out thanks to Leah and her show are absolutely heartbreaking. I just, I can understand, first of all, I can understand how people could become involved in groups that are so dystopian in their, in their makeup. How do you, and then when they, when they begin to experience these very abusive behaviors, why they just don't say, Hey, man, I'm out of here. Peace out. Actually tends to be the breaking point for people is when they do experience those kind of abusive behaviors, but up until that point, if it's happening with others, they're able to write it off. They're able to justify it or rationalize it somehow. And this is really, you know, a failing of us as human beings is that we, unless it hits us personally, we don't give it the credence that it really deserves. And so these abuses are allowed to happen because enough other people don't stand up and say, Hey, this is completely unacceptable behavior and I'm not going to tolerate it. If enough Scientologists inside the world of Scientology or any of these kinds of groups because there are many of them were to do that, then those kind of abuses wouldn't be tolerated and the groups would no longer be destructive cults. But unfortunately part of the ingredients of a group like this is a relative degree of what we'll call for lack of a better term, mind control, where people are given to the idea that this group is the best of all possible groups. It could never do any wrong. And if anyone else in the group sees things differently, that's their problem, not the problem of the group. And that unfortunately is actually indoctrinated into the group members purposefully. Did that, what made you decide, were you raised as a Scientologist? I was, yeah, I grew up with its principles and so I never really had any idea to the contrary in terms of the philosophy or the beliefs of Scientology. In the same way that anybody who's raised in a Christian household would be raised with Jesus as your savior. I wasn't raised with that belief. I was raised with the idea that Elron Hubbard was our savior. And so, you know, what Elron Hubbard had to say and what he thought was given greater importance in my life because my parents believed. When I was 15 years old is when I personally went into a Church of Scientology myself and started doing the classes and two years later right out of high school, I started working for the organization. I did that for 25 years. So it was a long journey for me before I finally woke up and got out. I'm a little bit of a slow learner that way. Did you feel brainwashed or did you, was there ever a time when you said, that's a term for it? Yeah, the indoctrination is not a one shot deal. It's a very gradual process. Because, you know, one of the problems people have is they see the extreme end of it and they go, well, how could anybody ever put up with that? But that's not how it goes. The day you walk into a church, they're not talking about extremist ideas and black and white ideas and we're all and you're nothing. That's not how they get new members in, right? It's a very gradual process where the first thing is you have a problem. You've come to us to help solve that problem. We're going to help you solve it. And the person goes, wow, this is wonderful. These people really care about me. I've never been anywhere where people listen to what I have to say, et cetera, et cetera. And they come on board for a $50 course, which is nothing, 50 bucks, yeah, great. And they get a little bit of help. And then they do the next course. And this next course isn't 50 bucks, it's 100 bucks. And then there's the next one and the next one. And before you know it, you're involved and you're kind of fully into this world. And within a year or two or three, you've then started buying into things that on day one, you never would have accepted. And by then, you're in a place, I guess, where you're considering yourself a member of the organization in good standing. This has become your family. I spend all my spare time here. I give you all my money and things like that. And probably you're encouraged to, at some point, give up maybe outside relationships that might be a little bit critical or might encourage you to think a little more openly. That's right. Whether it's a family, whether it's a friend, whether it's a business partner, if somebody is critical of Scientology, they have a whole preset handling that they will put you through to convince you that they're on the up and up. And it's that person, that critic of Scientology who is in the wrong. And they'll show you pages and pages and materials to show how wonderful they are and how bad that person is. And then convince you that maybe that person is actually a destructive element in your life and really shouldn't be part of it. And maybe you should separate from that person. If you can't get that person to just shut up about Scientology, right? Then maybe that person is not a good part of your life. And gradually, again, very gradually, you find yourself separated from people who are not Scientologists. Chris, the folks in the booth are telling me that we need to take a break. So can you hang around for a minute? Absolutely. And because when we come back, I want to ask you questions about those destructive influences that actually helped you leave. OK. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. Aloha. I'm Winston Welch, volunteer host of Out and About on Think Tech Hawaii. But Think Tech is important to me and our community because it's a forum where we can discuss issues, topics, people, events, and organizations that are important to us here in the state, in our city, in our nation, in our world. We've got a lot of interesting great guests here, and this is the place where you can come and see them. For the first time, Think Tech Hawaii is participating in an online web-based fund raising campaign to raise at least $40,000. Give thanks to Think Tech is what we're calling it. And we're running it only during the month of November. And you, of course, are integral to this in helping out. Please donate what you can so that Think Tech Hawaii can continue to raise public awareness and promote civic engagement through free programming like mine. I've already made my donation and look forward to yours. Please send your tax-deductible contribution by going to the website thanksforthinktech.causevox.com on behalf of the community enriched by Think Tech Hawaii's 30-plus weekly shows. Mahalo for your generosity. We are back. Welcome to Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm Cheryl Crozier-Garcia, and we are speaking live with Chris Shelton, who is a cult survivor and an expert in destructive cults and the impact that they have on people and on society. Chris, you left Scientology having been in it for decades, your entire life, you're born into it. And then you had spent 20 years or so as a part of the C organization, which is essentially the clergy. But your parents left before you did. Were they supportive in your ability to leave and to feel safe with whatever adventures were coming your way? Very much so, yeah. My parents were really rocks for me. They had been divorced actually and remarried non-Scientologists and had gotten out of the sphere of influence of the church. They sort of faded away though. They never spoke out publicly and they never made a ruckus, and so it was still okay for me to be in touch with them. There were a couple times where the church tried to get me to disconnect from my mom, but I did not do that. I refused and I maintained that communication with her. So when I decided to leave the C organization, I still believed in Scientology principles at that time, but I still wanted to do Scientology, but I didn't want to work for the group anymore. And so my parents were a great support system for me. They helped me acclimate back into the real world. And I proceeded from there and got a job and got a car and got a place to live and all. All the usual things people have to do that I suddenly had to do. Did you, when you left the organization, did you have skills that prepared you to be gainfully employed and things like that? To a degree, yes. I had some writing and copy skills. I had some graphic design skills and a little insy-winsy tiny bit of video skills and organizational project management type skills that I had learned over the years. I wasn't able to really put any of that on a resume. My first job was actually with a Scientologist where I had some cred. And I proceeded from there to just apply my strong work ethic, and then I got a job with a non-Scientology company. And they were actually enormously helpful to me in acclimating. And I've not been connected with Scientology ever since. How do you, there seems to be kind of a survivor club of people that have come out, not only from Scientology, but from other groups. And they seem to be an important part of the healing process. So if I had friends or relatives, say, who were in one of these destructive organizations and were leaving, what could I do as a non-member to support them in their healing process? Well, getting them hooked up with other ex-members is often a good thing to do. There are Facebook groups. There are support groups. There are counselors who actually do know what they're doing. Unfortunately, they are a little few and far between because cult recovery is a specialist activity. And if you run into a therapist who doesn't know a lot about it, you're going to have to educate them on it as you go. And that's not always a lot of fun. But the support groups that exist on social media are amazing. And there are many of them. And you can kind of talk through your experiences. And you'll be talking to people who may live on the other side of the world, but they're going to totally understand you. And that is invaluable. I spent months meeting people online who had been involved in Scientology, that some of them I had met in my years in, and some of them I had never met in my years in. But all of them came from a place of understanding and support and knew what I was going through as a newly out ex-member and helped me with the process of recovery. How is it, do you think, that obviously not everyone who is in Scientology experiences the kinds of abuses that we've heard about? And there are many people still in the organization who really do think that it is the bomb diggity. So how is it that some people are able to begin to spot those trouble areas of thinking, hey, this may not be the place for me anymore? And what keeps people continuing to connect and thinking that it's the greatest thing since sliced bread? It really is a matter of self-perspective and honesty, because I knew about problems in the organization for years when I was involved in it. But it took a long time for me to kind of look at it from a more honest perspective. Like, wrong is simply wrong. And when you have a really vested interest in sort of putting rose-colored glasses on and looking at things as you want them to be versus how they really are, it's a psychological problem of getting over yourself and getting over that. And it's not helped by an organization that is actively and knowingly lying to you on a nearly daily basis. That makes it rough. And that's, again, why we classify such groups as destructive cults, because lies and deception are kind of in their DNA. So you have to overcome that. Yeah, that's true. In order to get ready for this interview and the series of shows that I'm working on, I actually went to the library and got some of Elron Hubbard's old science fiction, because it appeared that a lot of what he had written as science fiction, pre-World War II, ended up becoming the basis for his theology and his ideas around spirituality and religion that became Scientology. And I have to say, I mean, it's mediocre science fiction in my mind, but I can't imagine a thinking person who is rational hearing those stories and thinking, yeah, this works. Yeah, it's a very subjective process. And like I said, it's also a very gradual process. Now, I don't mean to come across as an apologist. I mean, people who lack critical thinking skills will fall into this and they fall into it because they lack critical thinking skills. I mean, that really is what it comes down to. But I put the onus of responsibility on the organization because of the fact that it is knowingly and actively lying to its members. And it's not that the staff and the C-ORG members who work for Scientology don't know that. But it took me one day realizing that the majority of my day was spent lying to people before I twigged personally on the fact that I was involved in something I really should not be involved in. And when you invest more and more of your time and your money and your resources into a group, the harder it is for you to be critical of that group because of the vested interest in it, right? So there's a lot of barriers to overcome in kind of snapping out of it. And my process, I mean, when I really honestly look at how long it took me to wake up, it was about a 10-year process. Wow, to completely deprogram yourself? Yeah, from the point where I should say from the point where I started dawning on me in about 2002, 2003, that something was really wrong here. Well, it took me 10 years to come through the arc of, okay, I really need to get out of this organization now. And then only then, after I got out of the C organization, did I hit the internet and learn what I really should have known all along. So it's a process. Yeah, and it sounds like a difficult one. And one that people... It sounds like a lifelong process, like you continue to leave and you continue to move further and further away from the brainwashing or the indoctrination that you received. And you have to keep telling yourself... It sounds too like you have to keep telling yourself, no, no, we don't do that anymore. We think for ourselves now. There's a great deal to unlearn when you come out of a group like that, because there's so much stuffed in in the first place. And over a process of 27 years, we're talking about a lot of learning. And Hubbard was a very... Scientology specifically has been nailed as one of the most destructive of these destructive cults because of the sheer number of techniques that are used on its members in order to fool them. And the volume of material. I mean, Hubbard was extremely prolific. Yeah, he was. But there's thousands and thousands of pages. There's 5,000 lectures. I mean, there's just this vast library of material that I had studied. And so coming out of it, I had a ton to unlearn. And that's not something you do overnight. I've been out for four years now and coming up on five now, I think, this year. And I'm still unlearning things. I mean, this is going to be something I'll be doing for the rest of my life. Well, Chris, please know that in Hawaii, we are rooting for you to continue to grow and to share the word about Scientology and about all of these destructive cults. There are a lot of people out there who really want to make the world a better place. We see them running towards trouble when most of us are running away from it. And we're grateful for the heroism of those who join organizations that are dedicated to helping those others. And we often place those who we consider heroes on a pedestal. But there's a need. It's important to show gratitude for those who work to make a better society. But there's also a need for a healthy bit of independent thinking and skepticism. Exactly. You nailed it exactly. Without the ability to differentiate between those with true humanitarian motives, from those who are simply power tripping, individuals with even the most noble intentions can be victimized in the way that you were. And they end up becoming victims of those very organizations that they thought that they were going to change the world with. So just as we would reach out to others to help those in need, I think we also need to be aware of the need for self-protection so that our charitable intentions don't become chains that bind us to groups whose purpose is to harm us rather than to help us. And that's the actual lesson that I've gotten from you over these last, as I've assumed the new job of president of your fan club. And so I thank you for your candor and for your courage in being willing to come forward and to share your story with others. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk about this. And, you know, if you ever come to Honolulu and don't call me, I'm going to be your, not your friend anymore, okay? I will make a very good point of calling you that. I hope you do because I know where all the good Hawaiian food is. Excellent. Right on, Chris. Thank you for joining us. And thank you at home. Thank you for joining us on Working Together on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm Cheryl Crozier-Garcia, and we will be back in two weeks. Till then, take care.