 I welcome everyone to the Justice Committee's fifth meeting in 2016, and I ask everyone to switch off electronic devices and mobile phones as they interfere with broadcasting even when they're switched to silent. No apologies have been received. I want to ask under item 1 if the committee will agree to consider items 4 and 5 in private item 4 as a draft stage 1 report on the criminal verdict Scotland Bill, and item 5 is consideration of our work programme. Are you agreed? Item 2, this is our main item of business today, and it's an evidence session on agricultural crime. The committee held a round table evidence session on this issue back in February 2015, and then after the Slister General announced the review of agricultural crime prosecution policy. This review concluded in December with the development of a new policy, and the evidence session will therefore focus on the Slister General's review and that new policy. I welcome to the meeting Leslie Thompson QC, Slister General from Scotland, Katrina Del Rimpol, head of policy division at the Crown Office and PF service, and I'll go straight to question Margaret Euron first. Good morning. Can I say at the outset that the results that seem to have been achieved are very much welcomed by the farming community and really are hugely encouraging? There was one aspect that I did want to focus on to begin with, and that was rather than the opportunists then, those that involved serious and organised crime and some of the difficulties surrounding prosecuting that. It would be helpful maybe to elaborate on the nature and some of the problems of these types of crime. What came out probably at the round table and during the review process was that there was a concern in relation to serious and organised criminality moving into this area of life, and in particular a concern around the high value type equipment and vehicles that the farming community will use in their businesses. I'm quite carefully using the word concern because that's different from reported cases. I think what was important and we're aware that serious and organised criminality diverse into all sorts of aspects of business life, what was important was that we had the chains of communication in place in order to ensure that if there is any aspect of organised criminality, then the farming community know exactly who to report it to and then how it will be treated thereafter. That's why, included in this policy about agricultural criminality, there's a direct reference to serious and organised crime division and to proceeds of crime. The difficulties in relation to prosecuting this sort of criminality are not particular in the sense that we're aware that when we're looking at organised criminality, no matter which area in Scotland, we're looking at a business and we have to look at it as a group and look at dealing not just with the offending but with the money trail and ensuring that we claw that back. I wonder if there seemed to be a suggestion even that they were being stolen to order and ending up in Poland, Africa, Afghanistan. There must be a trail there that surely can be followed and another aspect of it I was wondering about was the issue of Surich sludge. The money trail and the destination, which is the stealing to order. Excuse me, we could have that first. How hard that is to defend the destination and work your way back, is it where? In relation to stealing to order, there is plenty of experience within police and prosecution in relation to stealing to order, as far as other areas of criminality are concerned. It's extremely important to ensure that you ingather evidence about the full business chain and I've got business in inverted commas because what you're looking to target are not just those, obviously, who are turning up and stealing to order, but those at the top of the chain. It's been done for money if that is what is being done. You're quite right to use the term suggestion at the moment. We very much need to be alert. What's then important is ensuring that the money trail is followed and that's why those cases, if there are any, which the police report to us, will be dealt with the same way we deal with other organised criminality in SOCD, ensuring that the specialist prosecutors on the financial side are in at the very start. As well as the money trail, is there advertising, is there online activity that can be monitored because obviously there's a market for this? In relation to where the police will ingather their evidence? Oh yes, absolutely. When it comes to organised criminality, there are a number now of well-used tools of investigation that the police and prosecutors use. It's probably also important to note that if there are cases reported at which are, as you're indicating, stealing to order and are clearly organised criminality, then it will not just be the core offences which would be prosecuted, it would be the offences under the 2010 act of directing organised crime being involved in organised crime or the aggravation of organised crime. The intimidation aspect of farmers by the very nature of an agricultural crime tends to be rural, tends to be a little bit isolated, and there was evidence that farmers felt very much intimidated. They were threatened sometimes when they said that they would be reporting things, that you barnaw be burnt down or these kind of threats. Is that being addressed as well? I think that information that came out and also came out during the review. I agree with you in relation to if you feel you're in an isolated part and there's nobody who is going to pay attention if something happens. What was extremely important about bringing everybody together in the review was to ensure that there was confidence, as far as any victims of crime are concerned, that if anything like that occurs it will be taken seriously by law enforcement authorities and treated appropriately. I think that confidence building was very important. I would imagine the intelligence gathering just getting together as all these different people reporting on the different aspects would be a huge advantage. I want to keep you off that, just now you can look that place. Mark is going to ask about sewerage sludge. Nobody dare touch that. Nobody touch the sewerage, right? Christian, do you want a supplementary to the destination if not I've got a whole list of people? Organise crime, yes. No, I'll move on because I've got Gil and then you're next anyway. Gil then is Christian, then Elaine, then Margaret McDougall. Thank you very much, convener. We've heard in evidence that some of this very high-tech equipment, very, very expensive equipment is lying around and I would say that advisedly that it's not protected. It's maybe not a disabled in it, there's no way of being protected. I just wondered if there's any work being done in that regard to encourage the owners of the equipment if it's not already in place. The idea that it would be lying in a field or even in a family yard unprotected is a notion that certainly wouldn't happen in a city. One of the things that is important about all sorts of criminality is ensuring that there's prevention in place and obviously that's a lead as far as police are concerned. Now, as a result of the review and the joint working in this area, SPARC, which is the Scottish Partnership Against the Rural Crime, is now up and in operation and I think submitted to the committee separately a list of all the preventative type measures to ensure that those in the farming community are aware of what's out there to have your property marked or recorded information about your equipment. There's a Caesar scheme in the briefing that we have. Is that what you're referring to? There's forensic marking. There's the Caesar scheme. There's also been general training and awareness training in relation between the police and the farming community. The police have clear leads now within the community so that they have that direct link and prevention is very much part of that. I was certainly heartened with your briefing and it explains that which is good so it seems that things are certainly moving on in regards to preventive action being taken. But I wondered if there was any work being done with regards to, again, pharem yards itself. It's a question that I raised and the explanation that was given from the person who asked the question was that it was very expensive to install closed circuit television. I think that nowadays the costs are quite small because now you can get wireless systems and I wondered if there was any progress in regards to protecting the farm yard itself. In relation to all methods of prevention that has been discussed with SPARC and during the review process between the police and the farming community, I don't have information on the costs of CCTV but I'm not sure whether there was it because Mr Rimpol was involved in the various review meetings, whether anything specific came up or not. If not, we can take it away and get back to you. I don't think that there was anything specific in terms of the prohibitive cost but there was a recognition that it was an additional cost for farmers in terms of the preventive methods that they would want to introduce and that they were encouraged to introduce by their insurers, for example, which is obviously a key in terms of their insurance premiums and all the rest of it. So, yes, it was something that was raised and it was certainly that the focus very much of SPARC has been on what can the communities do together to make sure that thieves are prevented from targeting agricultural communities. You set and guessed my next question. It was an insurance that the benefit would get. So, thank you very much. That's fine. Thank you. Thank you. Christian, please. Good morning. We heard when we took evidence from Dr Robert Smith of the University of the West of Scotland, it suggested that organisations such as the mafia were involved in such effects. It seems to me that there is a recurrence of these effects more and more, but there is a very different type of effect. It's organised crime like the mafia or maybe you're aware of the sister organisations that come around in Napoli. Those two organisations are very well-versed on profiteering from farming communities. So, to what extent do you think we are in such a case in Scotland? Or is it only an observation that there is no proof that organised crime like the mafia or the camera have now infiltrated our countryside? As was indicated earlier, there were concerns expressed. Concerns expressed about organised criminality are different from cases reported and definitive intelligence. At this stage, I can't say there's anything more than concerns expressed. What I thought was very important to do was to ensure that we sent the message out there that, as far as agricultural crime is concerned, if there is any suggestion of organised criminality, thinking that this is going to be easy money, well, when it comes to organised criminality, Scotland are actually very ready for them and have asset recovery rules which are far ahead of some other countries out there. So, I cannot provide you with any confirmation in relation to reported cases. The dangerous vests organisations are very good to infiltrate a sector and then trying to be part of that sector. So, that would be a worry for this committee if what we uncover is going to lead to this. So, it would be good that you come back maybe in a year's time. That would be a lecture to this committee who will be a member. But it would be good that that's followed up and not forgotten about because the organised crime can have a very detrimental effect to sector and we've seen it in Italy. For example, the member talked about strategy but there is a problem of cheesemaking and other problems which could very much be affected. I just wrote it somewhat into cheesemaking but I take the point. I don't want to go down that road too much unless you want to say something European liaison which would be interesting at how you liaise if it's across continents what kind of liaison takes place across Europe with other parties dealing with serious organised crime, either the police in other countries or the prosecution. There's a variety of different ways that liaison is done in relation to organised criminality. Can you tell us about that? Yes. I think probably better if I'm certainly happy to write to you and update you on what I can tell you about. I've certainly sat round the table on more than one occasion with European partners in relation to organised criminality. What I was going to say to provide assurance is that law enforcement, police and prosecutors are very much aware that organised criminality seeks to diversify and move into new areas of business. If this is an area of business that they're thinking of moving into while the message is out there that he don't because we're aware and the tools are ready. I'm making sure as well that the victims are aware that it could be that can because it's so important that you don't respond the same way to come and fath but you respond to organised crime. You need a lot more protection. Absolutely. We always put things in our legacy paper for the next Justice Committee to continue with. I have a long list so I've got Elaine followed by Margaret, we do go for by John, followed by Roderick. Thank you, convener. We received evidence about the distress caused to farmers by loss of livestock, whether that be by sheep warring and so on, which tends to increase at this time of year as you go into the spring, or through theft of valuable livestock. In terms of where animals are killed by dogs or whatever, what sort of recourse do the farmer get in court in terms of what can be done? Obviously if somebody says their dog, you didn't know their dog was out and worrying sheep. How about the financial compensation and the compensation for the distress caused to the farmer and so on by what's happened to the stock? What sort of recourse is available to them in the courts? One of the biggest things that I came out of the review was to ensure a proper understanding of the impact of agricultural criminality on the farming community. You'll see within the policy that there are a list of the various types of impact or distress, a financial cost that can have occurred. It's very important that those who are working in this area, it's very important to the farming community and to us to understand that criminality and for them to have the assurance that when cases like this are reported, all the variety of impacts will be taken on board by the police passed to the prosecutor. I'm getting to the point that you asked me about. We need to do that going forward to ensure that all that information is before the court so that the court can then take that into account in deciding what a sentence is appropriate because that sentence can include compensation. On smaller, lower level type criminality, one of the other things that came out during the review from the farming and agriculture community was that it's very important to them if there have been financial costs lost and sometimes more important to have that recovered than to have to go through a long court process and be away from farming. That's something that we have to take on board when we're looking at cases that are at the lower level of financial impact. For example, if a farmer loses a substantial number of sheep and lambs because they've been worried by dogs, what sort of compensation would be available in terms of what? I can't indicate to you what sort of sentence or compensation will be available because that will be a matter for the Presiding judge on the day. What I can give you an assurance of is that all that information will be available in the police report and then put before the court so that the judge can decide what's appropriate. What one would expect is that a person is compensated for the losses that have occurred, but all that will also be dependent on finances that are available to the perpetrator to pay back and that at the end of the day is a sensitive matter. My concern really was in terms of all these types of crimes under the legislation that is available at the moment. Does the punishment fit the crime, basically? I think we're asking not to intervene in the judicial decision, but what is the range of sentence available for the crimes described by my colleague? Should we be doing more? Should we be taking this more seriously? If there's statutory, should we increase them and to what? We'll wait. We'll go on to something else. No, it's okay. I just wanted to be absolutely sure that we didn't get reported back during the review that the law was not fit for purpose. What was reported back during the review was a concern that the impact of these crimes was not being fully understood at initial stages, not being fully understood at the court stage, and that was because the right information had not been ingathered and was put before the gun. That's the bit that we've taken care of, rather than the law not providing. I mean, because there is now a group in place, that may get fed back in the future. Yes. Thanks. That's fine. Thank you. Margaret, we do will fall by John, please. Thank you, convener, and good morning. Good morning. Can I just follow on from my colleague's question? You know, you're talking about compensation there. Are farmers able to claim insurance for, you know, the loss of livestock? Yes. Yes. I mean, part of the, well, depending on their own insurance policy, but part of the joint working now includes the NFU mutual. Yes, that's right. I wasn't on the committee when they took evidence last year, but I note that there was some mention made of farm watch and rural watch, these organisations that have been set up to alert farmers when criminals might be operating in the area. How well used is these organisations? Well, I would have thought that information was, you know, there within the forum. All I was going to say was that there's information about that in the police briefing, and the reason I'm hesitating is because, while these watchies are in place, I think what's important is ensuring that they're fully used. And within the submission in relation to this, and this is all on the prevention side, it seems to me that this is still an on-going area of work. Right, so the information isn't filtering down to all farmers. My understanding is that the watch schemes they're presently being reviewed by Police Scotland's Safer Communities Division, and that's the number of different watch schemes that have been introduced across the rural community. So I understand that there's a kind of evaluation undergoing at the moment in terms of the impact of them. So I think it's fair to say that we're not sure about the success of these types of schemes as yet, apart from anecdotally. And we did hear throughout the review that some farmers were reporting that the rural watch, the kind of phone call from farm to farm to farm to see the scene of suspicious car, worked well in some areas. But that was very much anecdotally evidence that we heard coming through the review. But my understanding is that there's not as yet been a full evaluation of these schemes. Okay, then. I mean, I also note from last year that some farmers were unsure which number to call, whether it would be 101 or 999 if there was something happening within the area. Has that been overcome now? I can't comment specifically in relation to the police operation of their watch schemes beyond it's within the group there were concerns that have been taken forward. And as I think we're indicating, this is still an area of on-going work. I think it's fair to say that that issue was raised at one of the spark meetings that I was at and the police had very much taken the feedback on in terms of the number and the location. And I think there were measures put in place by Police Scotland to address that. Members, I know we're itching to ask some questions. I'm quite right that I made the police would be better. So we can always in our work programme to discuss whether we have the policing for a short question and answer session with regard to their role in agricultural crime markets. I just wondered how the information gets out to the countryside and farmers and people who live in remote areas. Is there an educational issue there? There's an educational issue in relation to this whole area. Yes, you're absolutely right about that. The rural watch programmes are one part of it. And what has been important in relation to the joint working that's going on this year as a result of the concerns that were raised on the round table at this committee is that there's awareness training needed in the farming community as far as Police Scotland are concerned amongst prosecutors. And I suppose what I'm saying is that that area is now in place but on-going. I may note in the update that the Police Scotland briefing that they provided, they refer to a large number of engagement events that they're undertaking throughout the year with young farmers groups, local learning schools, rural shows. There's obviously at the Royal Highland show which attracts a huge number of individuals from the agricultural community. There's a lot of work and information available to individuals there in terms of prevention and detection there. So it's very much about tapping into every area that they possibly can to encourage reporting and that confidence. And of course, some of us have larger rural constituencies and that's where a lot of farmers do exchange a great deal of information as well as socialise. So there are many of them, of course, many of these events. I go to John Fallon by Rodrick, please. Morning, Slyther General. Slyther General, it's an excellent document and it obviously lays out very high standards. I was particularly interested in the information that's to be provided to you by Police Scotland covering issues like distress, the cost of replacement, hiring replacement, the immediate impact on the business, business interruption and in relation to vandalism, also photographs. I'm wondering, as I say, that these are very high standards. If I was a self-employed painter, decorator in an urban area, can I expect the same level of attention from Police Scotland and the Crown Office Procurator Fiscal Service as that? You can certainly expect consistent attention from the Crown Office Procurator Fiscal Service. What this review identified was that there needed to be a greater understanding in agricultural crime areas. Now, if you're talking about business loss, painter and decorator and there's criminal activity in relation to your business loss, yes, I would expect to be told about that. I think what became clear and why there was a concern among agricultural communities was that many of us who are very well used to city-type crime and business crime did not fully understand the impact that there was in agricultural communities and that's why I've had it spelled out, absolutely spelled out. That's good, so that was happening anyway. In relation to any vandalism to the self-employed painter, decorator, plumber. Impact of criminality. Just a minute, we're asking about the review on agricultural crime. I'd like us to focus on that. I hear you, John, but that's what I'd like us to focus on. We can do something on painters and decorators another day. I'm going to move on if you keep that. Is this rolling out existing practice or is this new practice, which will be rolled out out with rural communities? In relation to understanding the impact of crime, if that involves financial loss, prosecutors know that. This list contains particular elements that the farming community felt were not being taken into account. That's good. In relation to information that we received from Police Scotland, they talked about your staff dealing with those being provided with training on the emotional impact. We seem to have a crossover here because it starts off as a partnership against rural crime and there seems to be an interchange between the words rural and agricultural. In the broadest sense, most of what we seem to be dealing with today seems to suggest that rural communities are the victims. There's no pickup in relation to occasions where, for instance, the accused might be from rural communities. For instance, when that training is to pick up on the issues of the emotional impact on rural communities and individuals, for instance, the recent shooting of beavers in Tayside might suggest a crime, the use of underpowered weapons, it might suggest overt cruelty, the poisoning of raptors. Is that something that you envisaged should be picked up in this overall policy of attention to rural crime? There's a specialist team in relation to wildlife and environmental crime. That's already in place and has been in place for some time. I have to apologise. I'm not quite understanding your question on this one. I'll have another go. We're told by Police Scotland that your staff have been provided training in the financial and emotional impact that agricultural offences can have in rural businesses. Most of the issues that I have raised with me are about abusive wildlife. That is a separate issue. You're on to abusive wildlife. We're talking about agricultural crime, rustling, theft of vehicles, vandalism on farms and intimidation. That's what this remit of this is. Is that your question? No, I'll pass it. Thank you very much. I would pick up on something that John said, which I think was relevant, which is the issue of crime committed by it's not just outsiders. I had a case where a farmer lost 300 sheep rustled over a short period of a couple of years. It's quite shocking that it didn't bother reporting it. It didn't know what happened until they brought the sheep down off the hill. He told me that it's definitely a shepherd that's doing it. The sheep were being taken along the old drove roads and so on. What's the intelligence system like within the farming community of awareness that there may be another shepherd or some de former shepherd who's at this? It isn't big time mafia or something but is someone within the rural community who knows what they're doing? I couldn't drive 300 sheep to safely somewhere but he was clear that somebody was a shepherd or a former shepherd that was doing it. I'm interested in the intelligence from within the community about how secure it is to whistle blow. That's part of one of the questions that I was asked earlier about the intimidation of farmers and what was reported back because equally that applies whether you're talking about organised criminality or whether you're talking about people in the area around about. That's not something that's sadly particular to agricultural communities. That happens in cities as well. In relation to that, what's necessary is to have in place a system where those who are victims suffered loss, feel confident that if they provide information to the police. The police would be the first point of contact here about persons who are within the community not coming from the outside in that that is going to be treated appropriately and they are going to feel safe and it's going to be dealt with properly by the authorities. I think that the joint working and the awareness training at police level is building that confidence. We will be within the joint working groups because there's now a channel of communication from the national farmers union who will provide the sort of information that you're providing if that happens going forward. It can then be a disgust. Why is this a problem? What else needs to be done to make sure that people are confident in providing that sort of intelligence? I'm interested to know what that raised to the group, how significant was that at the group when discussing farmers feeling confident to perhaps. It's a very close community although they live far apart confident enough to say something and know that they can feel secure. There was some anecdotes. It wasn't raised as a big issue but it was raised in terms of anecdotes and there did appear to be a slight reluctance to come forward with information when they believed that it was somebody living within their own community. I think that's very fair to say so that that is about confidence. There was elements of loyalty there. If it had been somebody that worked for them, for example, that had taken advantage, excuse me. For us it was all about making sure that we had a clear policy that we would follow in terms of the impact and that they understood that. We knew what we would do and how we would respond to that so that we would provide them with the confidence behind that if they chose to report that. I'll leave that just now. Roderick. Morning, Sister-General. I just wanted to develop that theme slightly in terms of the extent to which there may be a non-reported crime, whether a result of intimidation or because it involves people in an intimate local community. In the course of prosecutions that take place, have you managed to form a view as to whether or not the tip of the iceberg are you confident that most significant crime is getting to the stage letting to your attention? It is quite difficult to talk about a negative. We have, as a result of working together, received certain information that Mr Rimpill has just indicated about anecdotal concerns about not coming forward. What I can say about the information received during the process was that it was not huge numbers of any sort of criminality within the agricultural or rural community. That was not a concern that there were huge numbers of cases that were not coming to us, that were not being dealt with properly. There were small numbers and, on occasions, the same case information incident being repeated. What I take is important about that, when it was the same case information that was coming forward from different groups, is the impact that even one case can have on a community if it is not dealt with in the correct way. From what we have received so far, there are not large numbers of cases that we have received so far. In terms of training, as a reference in the police paper to some kind of training of Crown Office prosecutors in next month, in March 2016, could you give us a bit more information on how the Crown Office goes about training prosecutors in the area and what particularly to look for them? We have a training and learning division that develops our training. In relation to the particular training for this sort of criminality, the first thing that happens is that the lead prosecutor was appointed during the review, so there is always that single point of contact. There is then the policy, there is internal guidance in relation to how you deal with individual cases, and that is all written type of guidance. The training, as far as agricultural crime and the new policy is concerned, will be in two parts. Firstly, there is e-learning training for every prosecutor. Every prosecutor will have to undergo that. The programme or package is just about complete and will be rolled out for every prosecutor to have to undertake from 1 March. Those who will be making the decision making in relation to those cases when they appear will also undergo specialist training, which is a more traditional type of training that you would expect. I am not sure whether it is over one day or more than one day. One day training that has been developed along with the National Farmers Union and Police Scotland will lead that training along with the COPFS. That is to ensure that those who are making the decision making at that stage fully understand the policy, fully understand what I consider is the most important thing in this, the impact and the right information about the crime, so you can determine the seriousness and whether or not it is opportunistic or there is a more sinister undertone. Those prosecutors involved in that will do the second more detailed training and back to will be in what will commence in March. Any other themes apart from serious and opportunistic distinction that you are particularly trying to get with the prosecutors to understand or is it part of the general background to agricultural life? The general background to agricultural life, the impact of the criminality, the types of offences that are most likely to occur and the information received from the farming community or the agricultural community rather as to their expectations as to how this will be dealt with within the justice system and the absolute necessity that all information is before the court. Some of those offences are specialist like livestock worrying but others such as theft then the sufficiency of evidence to prove a theft etc is the same. But what is surrounding it and the impact may be very different. It is an issue that has been brought up in the Parliament more or less since the Parliament's inception and we still haven't got to grips with it. It involves serious organised crime, involves the dumping of sometimes untreated sewage and there is big money in this coming from other countries being imported in here and then being spread in agricultural land. It involves companies transporting the sludge ceasing to trade and then starting up again as a new business and continuing as soon as they come under the microscope. It seems to me something that should come under agricultural and rural crime and yet the difficulty is I think no one person takes lead. Is it Police Scotland? Is it environmental health? Is it the local authority? Is it SIPA? I think we are awaiting a report from the agricultural minister but it is something where there is big money, organised crime, intimidation, all the things we have been looking at in this study. I think I would regard that area as crossing from agricultural into environmental but if I was to put it in a box I would put it in the environmental and the links between environmental and organised criminality across the world are a known and there has been work within our specialist who deal with environmental criminality. I do not want you to think that these are all individual boxes because there are exactly as you are describing that sort of crossover but I think what is important is that prosecutors are specially trained in each of these areas. I think I have spayed a little into, although I am so impressed with Martha's knowledge of sewerage sludge. I have not been around since 1999. She has not gone on her CV and there was a very good meeting in Parliament years ago between SIPA and the police dealing with environmental crime. I do not see any other questions. One thing that I am going to take you is the membership of this group that you have, the agricultural crime group. Is there any role for, and this may sound very frivolous, ramblers or hill walkers association, they are out in the hills where farmers can't patrol, they don't have CCTVs. Is there any role for them in being alerted so that they too, when they are out, see something odd? In an area they are walking, they may report it whether they should be on that group because they are out where nobody else is and then whether when perhaps nobody else is out. As far as I am concerned, anyone who is able to provide the sort of information or assistance as far as the problem of criminality is concerned would be helpful. What we will do is we will take that forward. We will find the right group to contact and see whether they are interested in being part of it. There will be different groups in different geographical areas perhaps, but that was raised by the farmer with me when he is not out. He took me miles in his four wheels. I thought he was trying to create a by-election. He took me to some wild places, but that was the point he raised with me. Sometimes people tell him when they are walking past the farm gate having been out on a walk that they have seen something while they were out and just bringing him, whether it is dogs running loose or something more organised than that, that they have been able to mention it. I did not see them on the list and they have got handy. No, they certainly have not been involved in the review to date, but again, as a solicitor general, I would be more than happy to consider that. Christian, it is not suric, it is not environmental, no? It is on the court to try to help as much as possible farmers to go and report and to make sure that if they have to go to court, sometimes it is very difficult, especially when looking after animals. Have we considered an extensive use of video links just to make sure that farmers do not need to leave the animals? Well, you are now streaming into a completely different area of ensuring that the justice system is modern, digitalised. I do not want to go to the video links. Can I thank you very much for your evidence? I think that it may be useful to the committee to have Police Scotland and perhaps the NFU with a different focus. Some of the questions I feel would be useful to Police Scotland. Thank you very much indeed. I will suspend for a couple of minutes to allow witnesses to change over. I put my microphone back up again having been indiscreet. Item 3, EU priorities. It is the latest update from the minister for community safety and legal affairs in relation to EU issues. Previous identified as areas of particular interest. A paper has also included an update from the minister and the most recent EU justice and home affairs council meeting held 3 December. Roderick, as our EU reporter, would you like to highlight any particular issues in the paper and suggest any course of action? I think that the paper and the comprehensive letter from the minister says it all. Just a couple of things. Obviously, in relation to human rights, there is work going on in this Parliament in the European and External Relations Committee. That committee received a private visit from the Joint Committee on Human Rights of the Westminster Parliament. A few weeks ago, without betraying too much in the way of confidences, I think that it detected there was a little bit of frustration in Westminster at the delay in progress of the UK Government's proposals in relation to a British Bill of Rights. The extent to which this Parliament through the European External Relations Committee will be carrying out work in relation to human rights is obviously fast diminishing in the absence of those proposals, given the timescale before this Parliament reaches its conclusion in March. Obviously, the minister's letter talks particularly about the EU migration crisis, and it is hard to think that the whole question of migration issues in the European Union are not going to come back on the European agenda in a very big way in the months ahead. Even looking back at what was agreed in May last year, things have considerably moved on. In terms of the more technical issues, we are waiting for a revised version of Brussels 2A dealing with which courts of jurisdiction in matrimonial matters are matters of parental responsibility. However, that is very much a work in progress, and the other issue that the minister highlights is directives in relation to the Paris attacks on foiled terrorism. However, I imagine that those issues of combating terrorism and control of the acquisition of weapons will remain high on the EU agenda. The rest of it is really self-explanatory. I think that it's an excellent paper, and I'm grateful for the minister. For all this information, I thought particularly in relation to the detailed information about the progress to date on the objectives in relation to the EU agenda and migration was particularly helpful on the link of where Scotland comes in in relation to this despite the UK being the nation state. I think that the migration issue has been one of the biggest tests of the European Union to date and has failed because it's not top of the media, but we're still seeing hundreds of people trying to make that journey in flimsy craft and hundreds of people drowning. I think that we should never forget that, just because it's not on the front line of the television anymore, it's still happening and it's extremely disappointing. Of course, there's also the issue with the referendum, which probably whenever that happens, if it's in June or defer to September—it does seem to happen this year—that this all becomes thrown in the air to some extent until the result of that referendum, Roddy, would you like to comment? We've also got the issue of human rights. We've got the issue of, without going into a yes and no debate here, disentangling so much of EU legislation, which forms part of our legislation. The European and Islamic Affairs Committee have been doing some work on the EU referendum considering what the implications are for Scotland, and that work is ongoing. I think that there's another session on Thursday which is covering some of that. Could you expand a little on how it would affect justice, the justice issues? It's specifically the result—well, who knows what the result of the referendum would be, but if you move back to Fortress Britannia, it would open up a whole debate about the extended co-operation, not only between the UK as a whole and the European Union, but also the separate nature of justice systems north and south of the border. People would probably be looking at that relationship in the context of a no vote, seeing how that would progress in the future. Would it actually mean amending some of our legislation or statutes where we have imported duties or imported certain rules? There's an issue with the extent to which European law is directly part of Scotland's law and the extent to which, with a no vote, for example, that might be impacted. Margaret Mitchell, I got it the wrong way round. You'll be all right. She's not going to talk about surage. The negotiations about creating a European public prosecutor's office, how that didn't comply with the principle of subsidiarity and that we're just monitoring that to make sure there wasn't an adverse implications for the Scottish prosecutorial system. Any update on that? No, but I take your point and it would probably be an answer if we're going to write to the minister about anything asking for an update on what the current position is in terms of the EPPF. Margaret Mitchell, I agree with you. It's just around the video conferencing. You know if you could perhaps give enough speech again. Which page is that, Margaret? Page 4, the letter from the Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs. It does say that, although Scotland cannot access funds for the justice programme as the UK is opted out, we are currently laying the ground for potential applications to connecting Europe facility later in 2016 to support a number of EU justice portal interconnection projects. Is there any update on that? Well, this is obviously a letter from the Minister today to the 21st of January. Again, it would be useful saying he says he will update in developments just to perhaps conform me if you're right to him asking him to ensure if there are any updates, particularly before March 23 that the committee has revised. Christian? Yes, thanks very much. It's very informative and, you know, thanks for the European and External Relations Committee as well for the good work that they have done, which part we could have done, but unfortunately we don't have time to do everything. I just want to fear that there are so many topics involved which are hanging on from the 23rd of March to the 6th of May. What's happening if there are directives coming in? If anything is happening, can you have some reassurance there? There's nothing we've been moved forward when we're in no Parliament sitting? Well, we're then into the problems of Perda. Obviously, we cease to be MSPs, but there's still a Government, but there are certain constraints as to what Governments can and can't do in a period of Perda. I'm not sure I can take it much further than that. I think, broadly speaking, it can be administration, but there can't be any policy announcements or anything of that kind during the term. It's a worry. Well, it's life. You're going to stop me in MSP in March this May. Do you think I'd like it or lump it? Well, there are a lot of things involved which could have happened at any time. But the UK Government's not in Perda, remember, so we have that issue. Margaret, one question perhaps. We're not in Perda, we're dissolved. That's on the same page. It's around the 16, 17-year-old directives on the presumption of innocence. Where are we with that then? Well, I think that the Government's fear is in general reasonably content that our domestic law complies with any issues and directives in terms of presumption of innocence. As far as the 16, 17-year-olds are concerned, we have a reasonable debate about this before we pass the Criminal Justice Scotland Act and views us to that review. So, are there any specific points that a member wants to address to the minister? Perhaps I'll put them forward all. Perhaps there's also the general problem that we have in our legislation that such varying ages for different kinds of duties and rights, protections, some of them inherited about the age of marriage and so on, which we might not have now. So, I think that that's maybe a bigger issue for the Parliament at large. There's also the point that I just want to stress. If you look at the bottom of that paragraph, that section, it said that the UK Government did not opt into any of the above measures to a degree. It's a matter for this Parliament. I thank you very much, Rody, for that. There's a huge range of things, and it's a bit up in the air just now. Can we take a view of what we would like to do? Any issues that we want to raise to the minister? Any significant urgent issues? Otherwise, we can conclude consideration of EU issues for this parliamentary session. Peter Wright, minister, give evidence to expand on issues set out in his update on the right to European and external relations, which is seeking an update on his work in relation to human rights and EU migration. John. It's a good job that I understand body language. Alison is going like this. I think that it's none of the above. John. Thanks, convener. Previously, we were very exercised about the Lisbon opt-out. I think that a lot of issues have been covered in Grateful, as I said to Rody, for that report. I wonder if it would be just asking the minister where things sit in relation to that previous position, just the overall. I think we should specifically ask to raise Alison's point on the EPPO or what that's worth. I don't think that we want to give the minister too hard time on these issues generally between March 23. Is it worth Rody writing to the European external relations committee an update on his work in relation to human rights and EU migration, or should we just read the reports? I would suggest read the reports. OK. So that's us concluded that item. Thank you very much. Now we're moving into private session. Public gallery clear, please. And I'll give you a little break while we get the screen set up.