 Hello looks like it's just the two of us. Yes it is actually strange we're not sent to agenda items and you don't show up yet but let's wait for him. Oh he did say it's on and slack at least so yeah. Well for me his slack still shows what is away. No I meant like I just saw the message he sent yesterday. The meeting is still on today here. Hey there I was having issues with the password again. Let me know to see everyone. Might be better on there. Well I'm still waking up and let me pull out the meaning notes and start sharing on my screen. And Nikolai is here actually so I saw that his topic was here was on the agenda last time so probably you know bump it up at first. All right. Well it was not really a question it was just a discussion I just captured it what we discussed. But Nikolai if you want to determine and have additional questions welcome. No there's no questions this time no. It's fine I think that we get a good discussion exchanging of ideas and what's going on in various communities out there about this so yeah fine for now thanks. All right do you want like is there any topic you want to sorry is there any specific question you wanted to like talk about. I don't know if this is that directed to me but no no nothing specific we kind of did pretty big let's say extensive so you walked through various topics last time. Okay kind of stole the floor last time so okay I'm here to listen. No worries all right. I probably forgot to do the meeting interaction so hi everyone my name is Reneau today is on the 8th of December and this is the on container orchestrated Delice workgroup meeting on the agenda we have CDI next steps and we have CubeCon Europe are there people who would like to add any items to the agenda today so this might go faster than fine. So I added these two topics actually I wanted to figure out I think just generally what's our strategy to tackle I think CDI one of the objective I was hoping to get done by this year was trying to get an alpha version of CDI and maybe pond man or container D and wanted to figure out basically whether we should pursue trying to put NRI in both on and container D or if I think the path forward might be just a bare integration of CDI and pond man and trying to figure out how to integrate with NRI and container D so fortunately I'm not seeing Mike Brown in the attendees but I am seeing your Vashi in the attendees so maybe your Vashi if you have a an idea of what would be the process or what would be kind of steps that would help make a decision around NRI and pond man. Sorry I think I missed the first half of the question can you repeat that? Yeah so I think like the goal that we're trying to get to here is how can we get CDI in pond man and to me there's like at least the way that I'm looking at this is that there are two paths we could either try to do this bare CDI integration inside the base and I think like I had one example where it gets you an idea of what kind of changes you'd be looking at or the other alternative so this one would be there's like a package that's added that would be like imported from the different projects so it's kind of not what you'd be looking at but the package basically would expose something like a get spec for a specific device node let me actually walk through this property so this is something that I presented I think back in September or October the idea was to just get it given a rough idea of what would be the changes that would be required if we wanted to integrate CDI in a project like pond man so instead of playing with multiple repositories I just added a directory CDI at the root of pond man the goal here is not to add a directory CDI at the root of pond man but to load this directory from or this package from the CDI repository but it's a rough idea where it gives you a rough idea I mean this is basically an MVP right trying to like get to get to a demo as quickly as possible so I have this file here that exposes two big functions get specification and update specific one has device and update specification so get specification walks through all the runtimes in the runtime map and basically says this is the device and basically says I have this device where I do not have this device right and for this device if I have a device then this is the specification that you need to have has device basically says get spec it just says well is the specification different from now and then update spec for a given OCI config and for a given set of devices what are the changes that need to be made I mean update the specification sorry to make the changes to these to the OCI I'm sorry if I'm not making sense no yeah this all makes sense and I agree with the approach obviously all this would be in a separate CDI repo that podman you wonder in right and I think with podman it's pretty simple that you can just use a flag we can create a new flag and you can pass in the name of the device node or whatever we can use to recognize where to pick the CDI plugin from basically but I think the question comes like in terms of cryo and container D because those are talking to the kubelet over the CRI so we won't be creating flags there but like what is the plan like how will the user specify the device to be used in the pod spec like are we going to use an annotation or are we going to create a new field in the CRI API like have we discussed that before we discussed it but let's not go where I'm yet so regarding the flags the idea behind the initial idea was what we want to reuse the same flags so you already have right now minus minus device so the argument to that flag can be used in this library as a device argument and regarding the kubelet it's possible to do like several approaches so right now we have a device plugin mechanism which again also sends the device name so we can reuse that functionality for now until we get something better and something better it's a separate proposal which will be built on top of the CDI okay sorry can you repeat that uh which part uh the last sentence that you said something where is something better what i'm saying the creation went through my head and then like somehow got lost what i say it is what right now for kubernetes we are planning to use existing device plugin mechanism so the device name field will be expanded on the CDI level and there are some other ideas how to implement it a bit differently but what will be done well a bit later as a separate proposal yeah how do we plan to differentiate between like whatever the current existing device plugin uses and how to tell it that okay we want to use the CDI stuff instead oh well wait well first of all we don't need to distinguish we just need to pass the argument to the CDI and let's see if it if it knows it and second thing existing device plugins were sending were absolute pass to well as a device name so slash there's something and uh CDI devices we are expecting what it will be just like normal sling not actual device note so if if we really want to have some safety uh and distinguish rules when we can just check so if if device note on the host is present when we assume it's normal device if not when just uh let's check with CDI to see if if it's a guy device okay that makes sense yeah um yeah so i think in the same in very similar vein of what is interesting um today we have the ability with the device plugin to pass annotations um so that would be one way of enabling it at the cargo level or at the community level um in terms of um what it looks like in kubernetes i think this is an ai that we really need to be taking in terms of like making a presentation uh and starting something like a cap or at least a rough document uh that leads to a cap uh i don't know we we have uh we have a proposal for that and i should and actually we have even a proof of concept it's just stuck in our internal bureaucracy for uh releasing this proof of concept code externally so i really hope would uh add the nuclear solve it and i can show it do you want to take the eye to present it maybe on the next meeting which is definitely not going to be the 22 that's 22nd but probably going to be the fifth uh so it will be when january right yeah sorry january which one january january fifth if actually like should we move it one more week and put january 12th because i'm kind of suspecting everyone's still going to be coming back from holidays and cashing up on the fifth yeah my my day my day at least like in finland six of its public holidays so yeah so let's let's move the next gen 12th well let's target on wet and they hope we will solve our bureaucracy items before what um and then i think one last answer to you your vashi is that in my mind this is something that is very similar to what alex is saying um what happens is that the cuba is just passing a name in the device uh in the device i mean basically it's still passing a device in the cry api um we don't change the cry api um this here are apis right um we we really just pass a device and the name of the device is like instead of being dev uh sda1 or dev nvidia0 um it's um nvidia0 or nvidia gpu1 right it's it's a it's saying it's not a it's not a path it's a name and that would be what like you would name on your on in your cgi file right well no not uh not not file but well sorry i i give is i a written cgi spec yes so in your cgi spec when you define these devices you'd say and so maybe that name that you're passing down is vendor.com such devices such device equals my device yeah okay yeah that makes sense i think um if we can get that pr that you showed like the cgi stuff set up then we can even in podman and like cry i guess we can create a sort of work in progress pr or something using that and getting that working yeah i don't know and i i agree actually with that approach so let's let's do first like minimal pr to like cryo container d and podman and see what kind of feedback we get and as soon as nri will progress to below what we can use when we will switch it to nri yeah i think that promo promo moving is easier yeah i mean especially if it's behind like a feature flag or something yeah so i can clean up my pr i think uh with regards to nri um there's discussion in progress i think i'm thinking of just making a pr that to cgi to nri to just integrate cgi but not do anything basically just be able to read the spec the cgi spec for my plugin and and and update it but not pass it up to cubits i think this is more something that Michael Crosby would be more familiar with and i'm less comfortable like getting in there i think he has more experience with that um so concretely the next steps sort of i don't get here uh uh basically for poman what we're saying is need to get a pr what we're saying i was talking about with nri like you mentioned something for nri i think my next step is basically going to be so you know how there's like container d changes and then there's nri changes and then there would be cgi changes that's kind of the three main repositories that we're talking about what i'm talking about is today there's no link between nri and cgi right um so what i'm suggesting is just make a pr that makes the link between nri and cgi so that nri plugins can talk cgi does that make sense i was actually thinking i was like wow are we around so cgi becomes a plugin uh to nri so it gets hooked to pre-create container and when get the spec we can modify spec but the problem with that approach is that um basically if cgi is an nri plugin that means that cgi needs to be doing these different operations to update the spec manually so for example uh invoking uh or changing the c-groups right uh why no no like uh was the same approach so like nri should call the cgi as a plugin saying like this is the container i want to create and password uh oci spec down yeah and as as a return it should be getting like we modified spec so oh yeah yeah so that's what i'm saying that's that's what i'm saying uh i think what i'm saying is that um the nri um subsystem that i know i repository should be invoked should be able to talk to plugins using the cdi protocol basically meaning that an nr the nri system should be able to invoke an nri plugin right and that plugin returns a cdi message uh no it's i'm talking about a bit different thing so i think we're saying the same thing yeah well i think i'm struggling finding the right words and the result is the same but the communication a bit different so i'm talking about a bit more generic approach so it will on an nri site it will be no hard coding or no assumptions about the cgi itself i'm just saying like on nri site it should be just a generic hook which says this is the container i'm going to create and any nri plugin can return when modification towards spec not the cgi specific but generic mechanism yeah i think i think we're saying something exactly the same thing it's just that i'm having i'm struggling finding the right words to speak if there are any differences we can probably figure it out in the in the br but i think yeah i'm i think i'll take you a step by step approach for continuity and nri um actually if if people want to start contributing like feel free to do so and prams me it might just focus on public yeah regarding we're contributing so as we discussed it earlier christian created well our comments about the nri in the nri repository so i think like the issue was like number two and i was like number three or something like that uh so if you yeah if you have time please please have a look because practically what uh what we summarize it and what issue it was exactly this like generic mechanism where we can uh well intercept like majority of the things um in nri yeah so this one yeah yeah i need to subscribe to it i'll log into the hub a bit yeah so please have a look on the nvc issue and if you have some comments please comment um i think he didn't see the issue unless you paint him yeah probably not at least haven't got any comments kibcon europe do we want to submit something especially considering two things we are less likely to get a spot given that we just presented a talk at kibcon us um the deadline is next monday and i don't think we've made significant progress that would kind of deserve a different topic um also that's a lot of work so uh if if they are to the spot moncrier and container d can be merged quick enough when what can be a part of the topic so like uh deep dive on how it's integrated to cryo podman and uh container d how cdi files are like look like and how how the common line uses look like so this kind of presentation can potentially work um i i wonder if this is something that we should present like are you from now it's may so we have about like five months is it i thought it was uh march it was may yeah i think it's in may may 4th to 7th okay do you want to take the lead on uh issuing a panel or alex i'm not i'm not sure what the panel will uh will be possible we can try or we can or we can try to ask it as a maintainer session i don't know like yeah like we're on time struck as a maintainer session okay um i think like do you want to do you want to be picked on this one and um try to figure out what's the best path for this feel free to reach out to all right people i think the only thing that i would like kind of suggest is to keep the group up to dates on the segment and see if we should let's um and everyone that's interested in participating feel free to reach out alexander so uh ronald i i don't know like so the normal cfp is for like normal track sessions but i think like all kind of like maintenance track like intro deep dives and so on i think we're following some our process for submissions so no we don't want to get a dedicated session uh we get to go through the normal the same track as everyone else i talked about this with um rickardo the who's the um the chair of sigran time and um that's just like where we work with we don't get a dedicated session because i i thought would well at least when i was more involved in the c cluster life cycle i remember what we were like with sub projects like uh pubescray and we had like separate maintenance track well anyway well fine yeah this this is definitely possible and i can see that because of the size of these projects and probably the fact that the community has evolved and i think we're we might not be there yet exactly well i i don't think we've got the same adoption as something like you've happened but yeah i mean feel free to reach out to rickardo by the way um he's on the cncf slack so and he's he's very approachable rickardo the last thing uh iran navel uh he's also you have his name also in the arabina sorry about that uh he is on the sigran time um his name is on the sigran time okay so uh so this session uh i can probably draft the next couple of days some small abstract for that uh yeah um who wants to be a cospeaker so i know i assume you are i don't i don't you don't why it's your open time i also i also feel that's not like it's not like as the shepherd of this community i feel like it's not my role to always be the person speaking about it i think it's a great opportunity for other people in the community to to to to have exposure and to participate okay so or washo what's what about you maybe you can talk with normal if he wants uh i mean i'm i'm down to talk but i'm also down to knock talk so i'm going to leave it up to you to decide well i mean my my idea for talk is something what like we have we have devices we have spec we we can show how the devices are defined when we have uh continued runtimes which actually consume it and for this second part i need somebody who is more familiar when he was with this topic so uh i don't know like somebody from container d or from cryo would be the best candidates all right i mean i'm fine with that maybe we can also ask mike brown like if he wants to do it as well so okay i'll i'll probably send in which so i'll draft where abstract let's see how it looks like and when i'll send it in our slot chat if it's a panel feel free to invite michael crossby absolutely yes and i can always help edit the video again if needed good cool uh i think that's the last one um thank you everyone for joining um and i think you're all getting back 25 minutes so have a great day or end of day for people in europe and i have no idea how that works out for other people in the world but i know that uh ag senator is in europe so that's why i'm here well christian anante is from our our company in st m's on finland too all right well everyone everyone thank you youtube bye all right thanks bye