 Come to the first event of our legal and policy issues death room here at FOSDEM 2021. We will have very exciting and interesting sessions and talks over the next two days and My name is Alexander Sander. I'm FSFE's policy consultant consultant I'm here the host of this very first session in the death room and I'm particularly pleased that we will start right at the beginning with an interview on the new open source strategy of the European Commission and Next to me is Evangelos Zavallopoulos. He is the head of sector of the European Commission, DIGI, Digits, Corporate service, mobile apps and open source strategy unit. Welcome Evangelos. Thank you very much. Hi Alex. Thank you very much for this invitation. I'm Very honored to be here with you. Thank you very much again. Thanks. Thanks For our audience, this interview is pre-recorded But you will have the chance to raise your questions if you have some after the interview in a live Q&A session So we will be also online after this pre-recorded talk here at the death room So we will start this interview with the first question on the open source strategy itself so UPROS or the European Commission presented this strategy in October last year and The commissioners adopted this open source strategy as a communication to the Commission Could you tell us what this means and what's the aim of this strategy, please? Thank you very much Alexander for this question because I think with this question it's also an opportunity to clarify duties about What is a strategy and what is a communication to the Commission? Because sometimes you know People or see That is a strategy and there maybe there are some over expectations created. So I would like to clarify first of all that this strategy Tell communication to the Commission. This is a strategy which is internal to the Commission only It is not, you know, they are legal acts where they directly Affect member states and European Union citizens. So it's not so for example, you know as like regulations or directives This strategy is not It's neither a directive Nor a regulation it is really internal to the European Commission And I think it's very very important that we clarify any misunderstandings regarding what is the target group of the strategy. So I would like to start with that So I hope that by that I clarify any ambiguity regarding what is a strategy And then regarding your question, I have to say that there are actually two layers involved in answering your question So first of all, there is a high level So I would have to say that the aim of the strategy is to leverage the transformative innovative and collaborative power of open source Of course, we encourage the sharing and reuse of software solutions for of knowledge and of information Well, we want to deliver better services that enrich society and Focus on lowering the cost to that society Now more concretely the strategy shows that after two decades of increasing experience with open source solutions Everywhere in the European Commission We are now in the process of establishing How can I say an open source working culture? So that's let's say the first layer now Second layer, which is a more practical one So in practical terms what we want to do with the strategy the announcement of the strategy is the starting point of the of an overhaul of all our household rules so The the goal of the strategy is to make it easier for the Commission to share its software solution as open source So we believe that this is a very important change. Of course with a tangible outcome Which means that we'll have more open source solution made by and available for all the Commission Okay, and The strategy list 10 actions for its implementation To make this all happen what you just mentioned and could you briefly summarize the most important ones or? The plant activities or what can we expect in the next years here? Yeah Well, as you know, they are as you mentioned that there are 10 actions for the economies of time. I will focus Not on the most important ones, but well at least the ones that have us, you know We are focusing now. Of course the first one is the creation of the open source program office So we have already done that. We have not finished yet now The Ospo the open source program office will become the go-between of all the open source related activities At the European Commission. So actually we consider the Open source program office as the heartbeat of the plant actions very important action and We consider as Established but not fully implemented. So that's important thing So the second important action is action to which is about making things open It's about thing. It's about promoting the inner source default So what we want to do with this action is that we want to try and remove all the barriers of sharing and using a Software within the Commission So what we want to do is that we want to encourage all our software development teams To make the the projects available to everyone inside the European Commission Some of them already are doing that but it's not done in a consistent way So what we want to do is that we want to make sure that this is configured and happens for every project So in simple words simple words is we want to make this the new default now What else action for action for is about revising the software distribution? So what we want to make sure is that we want to make it easier to share a software with other member states and Companies and of course a new citizens. That's what we want. We are already in the process of doing that But in order to achieve this Objective first we need to remove some existing legal barriers. So Cutting red tape is not, you know, it's not easy However, we have we want to have this our aim is that we have these new rules in place during 2021 and of course this will enable a first set of existing projects to become open source Another actions that we consider very important and it's already ongoing is the action 5 is the I-Labs So the idea behind these action is to involve the open source community. So we want to host to Open source labs in order to safely evaluate an experiment with an awaited open source solution Actually, what we have done is that we have already reached out to all our colleagues in the various departments by departments I mean director generals, but for the sake of simplicity, let's call them departments of the European Commission And we ask them for suggestions that could bring a benefit either to the Commission and or to EU citizens And we were really surprised by the positive response that we received from the various teams across the European Commission not only in the sense of Providing ideas, but also they were also very Eager to participate in the testing Now of course also under these actions we action we also want that together with open source communities Together with European SMEs We aim to also to test the solution and to see if we should add them to our toolbox other internally or working with colleagues in member states Okay, I see Before we dive a bit more into the future and also on the open source program office, which is quite interesting. I think Let's have a look at the status quo so the European Commission like to be honest all other public services in in in Europe use a plenty of proprietary software and so they are also in Yeah locked in by a proprietary WEM North and does this open source strategy help to resolve these log-ins and if so Are there any concrete goals or what are the measures to to resolve this status quo at the moment? Yeah, I fully understand why you asked the question But first allow me to say I'm not sure that the term locking is the applicable one is the applicable one I Don't believe that we are locked into software There is always choice a free choice of selecting software and we are selecting software Based on specific requirements. So I'm I won't use the lock-in, but I understand for the Why you use this but honestly, I wouldn't call it a lock-in Also Getting you know getting the read of proprietary software is not the scope of our open source strategy So The an important starting point of our open source strategy is that And it's fundamental as a principle that open source will of course we want more open source And of course open source would be preferred when it is equivalent in terms of functionalities Costo and security and this principle actually is also part of the commission digital strategy Of course, we want to make sure that More open source, but at the same time we have to be pragmatic and realistic And we have to really acknowledge that at this stage There are some very good the proprietary software solution for which there is no open source equivalent and Or there are some open source equivalence that at this stage cannot provide The same or in the foreseeable future. They do not provide they do not provide an effective and efficient alternative so We have to find the right balance and that's very important but I mean in general you want to be on the way to use more Free software and open source software to maybe overcome the situation that there is no equivalent software in place and Are you having statistics on this? So, do you know how much free software you are using at the moment? Are you counting this and do you have anything to see a progress for example? Yeah, thank you for that so, yeah, thank you for this because That's another opportunity to know that we pass again the message that all this information is available publicly and yes, of These numbers and we have these figures. Thanks to you for so any you for so too And we had these two programs product sorry, thanks to the European Parliament I have to say that all these figures have have been available online Since 2017 and you can find them on the you for a website and I invite everybody It's under join up to have a look at that these statistics. They are very very interesting and We have mentioned them extensively on the you know in various occasions in the open source observatory during presentation media and it wouldn't be a surprise for you to find that of course among the top applications, it's Firefox and VLC just I would like to remind To you and to the audience that are not familiar with for Satu that You for Satu aimed at exploring innovative methods for finding and fixing open source software vulnerabilities and at connecting with a wider open source developer community and I would like to mention because it's relevant to the statistic that some of the key achievements of the project include inventories of open source software for the Commission and the European Council and A comprehensive study on the trends and uses of open source software within public administrations worldwide so It's very important that you find yeah, and Of course you for Satu covered a lot of ground and it was very also instrumental in our transition and maturity in terms of embracing open source principle and in the way that we're going to change we work so Coming back again all the information is available. I encourage everybody that have a look So and and these numbers or these statistics will be also used for future I mean the further project is from the past somehow So are you going to continue this somehow also in order to evaluate and measure? The success of the new strategy or what are your plans to to measure the success of your strategy right now for the for the next years Like until 20 23 Yeah Well, as you know that the strategy comes with an action plan that details how the Commission will encourage and leverage Open source software development practices to co-create share and reuse across the organization In addition, you know In addition to this internal focus on an open source working culture the strategy and action plan Provide for increasing outreach to open source communities Now with this internal and external activities the strategy and the action plan Constituted practical instruments to help achieve the digital transformation of the Commission So I have to say that already by successfully accomplishing the actions that are referenced in the action plan is Already first very important indicator about the success of the new strategy However, I want to say that also we are in the process of establishing some Meaningful and at the same time realistic and pragmatic and pragmatic key performance indicators well, of course applicable for Tracking the progress against an established target objective for example such an example is the milestone for the revision of the software distribution practices, so If we implement these successfully this distribution practice will result in an increase in More commission on software project becoming available as open source so That's an example of how a KPI Meaningful KPI a pragmatic API will be used to measure the success of The open source strategy Okay, I see Maybe let's come back to the to the situation that you said there are at some point No, no free software solutions on the market And also the strategy here says or indicates that there are a good reasons That's what the strategy says to choose a non-open technologies Also, it says that that there might be reason where it makes sense to Release solutions under a free software license. So could you say what are good reasons to choose non-free software? And where does it make sense to choose free software? And dive a bit into this Yeah, why or when do you choose a free software and when do you choose a non-free software? Yeah well, of course We agree that in many cases it makes sense that we make it You know open but we have to be pragmatic. So the This is You know, it's not a sprint. This is a marathon It's a long, you know the transition Is a long a long term change? Management project. Okay. So we cannot force things by forcing things, you know Most probably will be counterproductive so we need to to talk to the teams, liaise with the teams and Give the choice to the development teams to share their code when they are ready for it. Okay Of course, there are some instances where of course, we cannot Some problems cannot be open. Let's say there are some projects that deal with sensitive data, you know with So, you know confidential data They are, you know, you understand will not be able to, you know, at least immediately to open the code but Also, there's another aspect, you know Transforming an existing project to an open source require may require some refactor code and this comes at a cost and There is a, you know cost and of course time. So there is a possibility that at this stage, you know Let's say this year at one because of lack of resources because the resources are allocated to, you know Let's say Maintaining enhancing the project or because of time or because of budget We might not be able, you know to transform all project. It has to do with, you know, with Organization and with proper planning. So what I'm saying that we cannot really force So Project to become overnight open source. So what we are here to do we as open source is to encourage these teams and Assist the team based on, of course, on their priorities and You know budget availability and time to transform the existing projects to open As I said, this will take time and we have to give the team style time to walk the path And how do you try to convince them? So what are your reasons you tell them to choose? Free software. So what are your reasons from from the commission side to make software open? So how do you convince your colleagues? But also, I mean, you had some experience with free software in the past as you said as a For example in the Fossa project. So how did you came up to there with this idea to have the strategy and convince your colleagues to Choose more open more free software? It's not clear. Alex is not clear the question. I mean You from the commission side have reasons why you choose free software. So could you elaborate more on this? So why did you came up then with this strategy to say we want to have free software instead of proprietary software? So as you said you want to go this marathon. So why are you going on the way now? Of course. Sorry, I didn't okay. Thank you for this clarification. It's more clear to me the question Well, the benefits of using open software, you know, I think it's Clear to everybody. I mean the code is public free to reuse and In a collaborative way, we can adapt and improve of course and can inspect it for security reasons for security issues. It's independent from From well and by that we can create more interoperable systems Sharing the commission source code as information It's our saving great possibility. Okay, of course it lowers eventually will lower cost for society and at the same time it increases knowledge so It also, you know, we also what we do is we also build on our experience Our experience from the connected Europe facility the EU forza the isa square program including join up and also so we have partnerships with open source software service suppliers with communities and we also encourage pilots and other initiatives. So we have experience So it's not something new to us Don't forget also, which is very very important In team we also create we also had a study on the open source software governance of the European Commission Which was made publicly available online So the study was written by several expense in in the area And it shows that the open source strategy is in line with the best practices from public services and private companies So this confirms our strength and policy on the use of open source of software, you know, as an or so Yeah, I see and Maybe now coming back to the open source program office and as we just said there's join up There's also there's already so many you had the fossa project. So why do we need now this open source program office? What's its role? What shall it do and yeah, could you tell us a bit more about this open source program office? Also, you said it's going to be set up soon So maybe you have some some information on that. Yeah, what I want to clarify the op the, you know, they are Many things when I say that the open source, of course, we have an open source an open source program office. It's established. It is there What I'm what I mean before is that these we need to find our steps and this will take time. So, you know It's more than a title. We need to establish best practices. We need to establish, you know Various aspects there, but the program office is there, but we need to, you know, we need to get more mature You know find and find our steps and this is happening. It's happening on a daily basis. We are collaborating with other organization institutions in Europe and Across Europe sorry and outside Europe. We want to, you know, share best practices. So they are still a lot of steps that we need to, you know To follow and so that the open source program office mature in an efficient and effective way. Now, as I said before, in the European Commission, we have more than 20 years of experience with open source So what is important is to say that the Ospo, I mean again to remind that the open source strategy has 10 concrete actions. So one of the One of the first action was, of course, which is, you know, to create the open source program office. So its main mission of the program office is to increase the use of open source Make it easier to contribute and increasingly become part of open source communities. So that's the, let's say in a nutshell, the main mission of the Ospo But at the same time, the open source program office has to assist in cutting the that I mentioned before so that will make it easier for us to publish software as open source I have to say that if it's not clear, it may sound, you know, simple, but it's not. It's a massive task. And in order to change our household rules, it will take some time. And we have to actively evolve all our colleagues across the commission. And that's an important role of the open source program office So that's, you know, in short, what the Ospo will be busy with. So we want to make sure that we will bridge the internal process with the outside, finding and removing, of course, bottlenecks and the work processes And strengthen the open, you know, the collaboration between the open source communities and the commission So as far as I stand, so there's an internal part as a strategy itself says it's an internal communication for sure, but you also want to be somehow connected to the outside world So you won't be in your own bubble, but also want to be there somehow open to the outside world Maybe in this regard, the subtitle of the strategy is also sync open. So is this also connected here? What's the meaning of the subtitle? Is it for internal ideas? Or does it also reflect this collaboration with external partners here? Both, both. Of course it's both, but as I said, because it's the strategy mainly concerns European Commission, the term, the title of the strategy sync open signals a change in our internal mindset That's important. It's not just a title, it's not just a buzzword, it's more than that. We want to change our mindset. So of course the development of software solutions take into account open sharing, reuse, security, privacy and legal considerations, of course And this sync open also indicates a commitment to actively support the open source developer communities So it's worth talking about this a bit more because the commission strategy is giving us the space to join forces with major open source actors, but also with communities So we will build, we will continue building and maintaining long lasting and meaningful relationships with open source communities And of course we build on experience from projects like Connecting Group Facility, the EU FOSA and the Asia Square So all these actions will really contribute to the viability of the open source ecosystem and at the same time facilitate sound and efficient product management and governance Okay, I see. So on the one hand you are very experienced and on the other hand you need to be open to the public somehow And when you wrote this strategy paper, has there been also public consultations here or was it more like an inside job? So how did you came up with this strategy? Did you ask communities or even the public or other entities here? Could you dive into this issue a bit? Of course, of course. Well definitely the strategy was not created in isolation and of course it was not just one entity creating this strategy I would like to remind that the commission has long studied experts, communities, think tanks and groups of activists So we have built a lot of relations in the context of the open source activities during the last 18 to 20 years And I would like also to remind that in November in 2019 we also had a huge conference that brought together EU FOSA leaders Now we also in 2019, in view to this strategy, we had a very comprehensive study which is entitled Study on Open Source Software Governance at the European Commission And this study which is available online was conducted in close collaboration and cooperation with experts from all open source development communities And as I said before, it shows that the open source strategy is in line with the best practices available So as you understand, of course we consulted with all concerned parties I see, I see. And this is ongoing, so are you up to for consultations during this period as well I guess So as you just said, you will think open not only internally but also externally There will be also somehow these conferences and back and forth with outside communities as well in order to evaluate the strategy And to maybe adapt during the way activities It's not clear to me, Alex, about the evaluation and... I mean as you just said, you had for example in 2019 this conference where you brought together free software communities And asked for feedback and so I guess this is also what you are going to continue in the next years So you won't stop this dialogue but you are going to continue this dialogue I guess Of course, of course, of course, of course And also what's really interesting for me is there are any implications also for the member states So I mean sure the commission is an entity but as you also want to work together with other administrations And for example the ISA Square project is really into the administrations from all over Europe And not just from the Brussels bubble So what's the idea here to work together with other member states or especially administrations from the EU member states Yeah, well again I have to remind that the strategy is in turn to the commission But of course we see some implications for member states I would like to give a very simple example which is LEOS LEOS is an open source solution which is used for writing, editing and publishing a legal text And LEOS is already used by one of the director-general which is DG DAX DG DAX which concerns custom union and tax policies LEOS is also used at the council and LEOS has been selected by the national governments in Spain and Germany And besides Spain and Germany other countries such as Denmark, Italy and the Netherlands have also expressed their interest in this application Spain is already working with our developers on new features And Germany is putting more developers on the project So as you understand this is an example of how we can create a software development community from various member states And it's also a good illustration of how open source lets us collaborate and have efficient resource management Moreover, it shows how open source is about co-creation It's about public services that connect seamlessly across organizational silos and borders So what we are already doing with LEOS, we can do with other projects as well Yeah, that's true But I'm glad to mention, yeah, again Yeah, however we... Yeah, what I want to say and you seem a bit... It's open source, it's not the magical solution, it's not Panakia It is a way to ensure, if you don't... ...to achieve into operability Yeah, that's true And as we had this very impressive example across member states here in Europe But I mean, administrations are more or less having the same demands and needs worldwide Yeah, so are you also planning to connect globally? So are you also up to work together with third countries? And are there maybe already collaborations or are there any planned collaborations? So, yeah, what are your plans for opening your open source and free software activities globally? Yeah Well, as I mentioned before, regarding the open source program office We are participating in various meetings and discussions with various international organizations and ministries For example, we are discussing with the Minister of Science and Technology of Israel We are discussing with the United Nations And the idea is that we want to keep our eyes and ears open And we don't want to reinvent the wheel We want to see and share best practices from others And by sharing these best practices, we can go faster to what we want to achieve So yes, we are in collaboration and in communication with other international organizations Yeah, perfect So thanks a lot So I think we all now have a better understanding of the open source strategy of the European Commission As well as the difference between internal communication and other legal documents We normally know from the European Commission And also about the open source program office, the activities So thank you very much for being here for this interview And now we are going up or we are going to open the floor to our audience to raise some other questions For now we will stop the pre-recorded interview And we will all see you in a few seconds live at the legal and policy death room here at FOSDEM 2021 Thanks a lot so far And see you in a couple of seconds in the live session Thank you very much Alex Thank you Live? Okay, perfect, awesome So hello everybody to this live Q&A session for the interview we just saw on the European Commission's open source strategy The first question will be on the, you said during the talk that there are some very good arbitrary pieces of software That have no open source equivalent And so the question here is could you perhaps name one or two So that the people have a better understanding how this term equivalent is be judged and how you would describe it here The question is the, I would like to put this question in context The open source strategy explicitly states that the open source alternative will be preferred when it meets specific criteria Meaning it's equivalent to what we have, it matches also the security criteria and matches the security requisition and some other criteria So it is very important also to understand that when we select a product it's not just a matter of cost, it's also a matter of integration So it's also the cost of ownership So in this respect when we select a product we need to address all these requirements So it's very important, so the question is not only it's not just about open source or proprietary It's about at every time we select the most applicable product whether open source or proprietary That meets the established and expected criteria and needs of what we need It's very very important that we put this in context And so people in our community may say that's why it's not a matter of, you know, and every time that choice is very specific So of course it's, you know, we choose and we cannot expect us, you know, we discussed Alex during the interview We cannot expect that today we have let's say 100, it's an example, 50 proprietary software and tomorrow we'll have, you know, 50 of them, 25 of them will be transformed to open source It's not possible, as we discussed we have to be pragmatic and realistic and I will repeat again What we are doing now is this is not sprint, it's a marathon and it will take some time, it will take time that we change, we just started So change will come, it will take some time but every time we have, you know, this change is a conscious change You see that in a strategy and you will see that in the coming period with our actions Okay, and I think for our community one of the most important questions or one of the questions here is also the relationship or the contract with Microsoft So we would describe this as a login for the EU here of Public Administrations Generals I have also the investigation by Investigate Europe for example So how do you describe this in terms of equivalent software? So would you say that we or the European Commission have to stay with Microsoft for the next decades Or are you willing to or are you up to change, for example, so what's your take here? Let me, why, you know, this discussion about Microsoft has been going on, I don't know how many years, is it only Microsoft? No, for sure not, but you know, there have been investigation in Microsoft, it's also every time in the spotlight There are many other companies, but yeah, people are always interested in Microsoft But you know, this discussion, you know, it's an endless discussion, I remember, you know, as I joined, you know, the IT You know, it has been there forever this discussion I think it's not fair for any of this discussion, it's not Microsoft, about proprietary Microsoft is not the EU Okay, all these companies offer the proprietary products, they offer, you know, very good products And as I said, we don't consider that we are locked in vendors, there are other companies that offer proprietary software And every time now we repeat the selection of software has to be seen in the specific context I'll give you an example, we can use you, let's say, in the development area Depending on the size of the volume of, you know, the needs of the project Let's say web application, we might say that we use Oracle, or we might select that we use MySQL So, one is proprietary, the other is open source Yeah, sure too, yeah So, you know, anytime the need is very specific And of course they also, they serve also, you know, a strategic also, a strategic plan that the commission And not only the commission, every organization has established regarding the digital transformation In our case is, you know, the European Commission So it's not only Microsoft Now, of course it's every tool, every software that we select has to serve a specific purpose And it's not a light-hearted decision, it has to do with many aspects We are set with needs, with integration, don't forget the integration The interoperability with other existing systems There are many aspects that are involved when we select a product That's for sure, but on the long run, you want to go in the direction of free software That's why I have this strategy and that's why this question comes up That's for sure, and yeah, let's see how this will continue May focus a bit on the source part and free software part here So the question is, so your products, your developing in the next years Will they be just released as finished product or will they also open development here? So will you develop in the open or how is the strategy handling here? That's a very nice question, because it will give us an opportunity to clarify I think we already touched that a bit in our interview Of course, it's mentioned in our strategy, of course we are reaching out to the community Of course we want an open approach, of course it's both It's important, it's fundamental And how do we decide if it's just releasing a finished product Or deciding to develop in the open, so is there a guideline for this Or how do you decide on how to do it here? Alex just started, so it depends on the case I have to say, we have three But what is important is that first of all establish this dynamic interactivity So for me it's very, very important, and everything will come It's very important that we also measure the both And also we see in several countries, also European countries That they have platforms to share code among administrations And they are also having this open source program offices They, for example, have here to share these pieces Are you planning to do something similar here in Europe? Is there a planned platform for the public sector to join forces and to develop software together And to share and collaborate here, or what can we expect here on this side? I think that, I think I understood your question correctly An example of FLEOS, an example of how we collaborate with Member States So more examples will come, as I said before, and we discussed The most important thing that we are doing now is removing the existing legal barriers So that we will be able to offer our software as an open source And allow our developers, our people to participate in other projects, you know, open source projects as well And establish this collaboration with the open source communities across Europe So we are going towards a direction Sure, sure, sure, I think it's a bit different in the different directions For example, in France we see ETALAP sharing this code And we have for general projects something like GitLab So are you planning to have something similar for the European Union to host and share this code? Also you have, for example, already join-up So will this be somehow included and what's the role of join-up, for example, for the future here? Well, the join-up will be a very important part of what we're going to do Replying to your question, the idea that we also provide our software as open source That will be available by everybody So of course we are going towards a direction And actually already we are working internally on having in the coming period Some software that could be available to everybody Okay, so what's the role of join-up? Will this stay or will this somehow be merged? Or maybe could you already have ideas on this here? Yeah, at this stage join-up here is a very specific role, a very specific scope We have not yet fully analysed how the job will be part of what we're going to do But definitely it will be, you know, it will play an important role Okay And depending on the development and releasing Alex just reminded that also join-up is also, I would say, the join-up also will follow the evolution of the ISA2 program So we have to see there Sorry, once again I didn't get it So John has connected to ISA2 and so once ISA2 is free The future of join-up will also depend on the future of the ISA2 program And we also have to, yeah I guess you want to continue ISA2, right? Or do you want to stop this at one point? Yeah, of course, of course, of course But ISA2 is a different program So that has to be clear to everybody And again I would like to mention again that of course we are going to establish a very strong interactive development system Okay Another question on the development of software So if the commission would be by far developed software as free software from the beginning Wouldn't step to transform software towards free software and not be there anymore So the question is on developing and transforming software So I think once you start to develop software by own Then you don't need to go to the market anymore to see if there are any other solutions You don't have to transform, you can start from scratch And then sharing and collaborating together and have the solution which is Especially your needs and the needs of a vendor for example Are you going more to this direction or are you going more in the two directions to transforming software somehow then? Again it depends on the need Again it depends on what are the needs that a tool will have to serve But definitely what is important is that we are going open by default And as we mentioned before we are in the process of removing this existing legal barrier Which allows us to make our software open source But at the same time and again we have to be pragmatic and realistic There are some projects for reasons we discussed during interview that will not be possible to make an open source But in general the idea is open source by default And it's very very important again to pass the message It's not just open source only for the software development During our interview we discussed about the think-open It's not by accident that we have this motto It's not more than a motto, it's more than a buzzword It's a sense of mindset We want to make to facilitate we are members of the OSPO This change of mindset in the commission And by think-open it's not only about open source software It's also about other things, it's about change of mindset It's about open data, there is many many things A question I think is quite interesting What have been the most difficult task for you during your road strategy And what do you see as the most difficult task for next year Where are the challenges for you for the next year But also once you started work on the strategy You also had an open source strategy for digital example At the very beginning then you opened it up So what have been the challenges here And what are the challenges for the future You see inside the European Commission Very nice question I see many questions within the question So let's start with the past Let's start picking it out from digital to European Commission strategies What was painful there There was no pain at all It was a fantastic experience for everybody involved Because this document is not a strategy So it's not just an internal document So we had many things It's not something that came in isolation First of all we have previous open source internal documents That we have created every three years We are creating a similar document But this time it was a strategy Which is a communication from the college to the commission So it was a synthesis of all the departments All the directors and generals We as digital we created Every department of the commission Every director general contributed to that So it was a fantastic experience In terms of a synthesis document Everybody contributed because we cannot get more of the answers So this synthesis was very very nice So we also had the study That we had a study about the future of open source European Commission It was a very important instrument For us in creating this strategy So I wouldn't say that it was something major And you see the outcome Everybody was happy that you opened the door And said you want to work more on the open source It's not that we opened the door These documents are by definition By default it's called interservice consultation So these type of documents All the G's, all the departments have to be consulted It's not that we opened the door It's there, this is a very specific procedure It's very important that everybody understand This document is not done in isolation Many actors were involved It was a fantastic process And the outcome to the outcome Now, what are the main challenges So I hope I asked the first part of the question The second part of the question is That we see in the future I would say that the first one, challenge The first one is again this change of mindset We want to enter To engage in discussion with all our colleagues With all the departments of the commission That we start thinking in a different way This thing opens So I would say this is the first challenge Engage with all our colleagues And start passing the message So that's why I repeat many times That this is not a sprint, it's a marathon And it will take time At the same time, and when I say challenge I don't mean it's a positive challenge It's not in the wrong way On the contrary, in a positive way Another challenge which is also a very important milestone Is the removal of the legal body Important milestone Another very nice And maybe to come to this legal barrier So what do you have to do here To give us an understanding What can we expect Legal barriers have to be removed Very soon we hope Because we are discussing the European Commission And we discuss about legal aspects Sometimes you have an idea about the timeline But you know, because it's a lengthy procedure Sometimes you say Q2 and Q3 So that's why you see me It's not avoiding to put a timeline But I definitely happen very soon We won't, at this stage We do not have the legal framework That we make our software open source So we need to establish this legal framework And then very soon we'll be able to say Is this procurement procedure No, no, no, it's legal It's pure legal Okay, I see, I see So it's very important I know for someone outside the commission This might seem a bit, you know Bizarre That we have to But the commission is a public organization Or a public service That is based on, you know There is a legal framework Yeah, sure, sure And what I also think it's very interesting For all of us So how can the free software community Help you here Do you see any needs Or we can step in and help you In order to be as fast as possible On your marathon? Of course, I mean Of course all of you The open source community Is very important to us That's why we are going to Reach to you in the coming period It's very, very important to us As I mentioned And I will mention that again We do not operate in isolation So we are going to establish We already, you know We know that we already have contacts With the open source community In the future we are going to strengthen And enhance this Not just communication But also collaboration And you will see, you know Also based on our action plan Things we are going to do And this could be done also in collaboration With the open source community So we really look forward To this collaboration really Yeah, I think we as well And also I think We now have a better understanding Of the open source strategy By the European Commission By the InterU And also by attending This live Q&A session here So thanks a lot For joining us here at the Room, legal and policy Deaf room here from 2021 And thanks for being up for the questions And I am quite sure That we will stay in contact All together Maybe next year we can Have another talk and just See what progress Have been done so far And yeah, it was Really really interesting for me I hope for the audience as well And hope to see you soon And yeah, thanks a lot For being here Thanks a lot Alex Thank you to everybody Thanks Thanks