 All right, welcome everybody to this first panel at the Indian School of Business. I'd like to start out with thanking the panel members first for joining this. My name is Aasthegranade and I will be your host today. Why are we here today? And there are a couple of things that come to mind. In my career, we just spend, let's say, two decades of working across different continents. And I was just sharing this with our esteemed colleagues a couple of minutes ago in a breakout group. I've had the opportunity and actually the pleasure to work with a number of supervisor, bosses, mentors. You name it over my career that have helped me build and come to the partner level that I am today. Now, given today's world of agile teams, you have tribes, the ability to mentor, I find the time that supervisors have to mentor is reducing. And so with the last five years, we've been doing a lot of work with institutes such as yourselves to share insights from external market leaders of what does it mean to be a successful leader. So these are the two key parts that we would like to talk about today. So now with that being said, what I would like to do is just do a quick round of introductions with our esteemed panel members. I want to start with Richard. And just a little bit of context, you certainly can look up Richard's LinkedIn online. And I'm sure you already have done so. And all the panel members are going to get a number of requests after this for joining. But, you know, what I want to say is I met Richard a few months, several months ago, and we had one breakfast meeting with him out in Bangalore, right between the pandemic, I think. And I left that breakfast with some absolutely fantastic ideas, not just on what we do at Hydrican Struggles and the launch of our business, but at a personal level, even after I talk about two years, two decades of my career, there were some sound bites that Richard gave me that are still with me today. So with that, Richard, not to put you in the spot, but maybe you can do a quick 30 second introduction also. Okay. I am currently the board member of KPMG in Middle East, which is the lower Gulf practice. Earlier, before that, I was the CEO of KPMG in India. I had many roles before that was my last role there. And I've been in consulting or accounting all my life, 38 years in this order, which 13 years, which I find very valuable to me was not in the big four. It was in a medium-sized firm. And my view, I learned a lot there. So all people who think you don't learn in small organizations, I can give you a few tips, what I learned there. Yeah, that's it. Aastik, thank you. Thank you, Richard. Chris, I'm going to go next with you. And while we've just met recently, Chris, you're well known in the industry. I will say, I started with saying I have two decades of experience. I have less hair than you probably, but I will say you have three decades of experience. And now, I'm the group head of Human Resources and Infosys. Without going into, again, your LinkedIn profile, Chris, would you like to share a couple of nuggets with us as you're introduction? Hello. Good evening, everybody. A pleasure to be here. I think I've been, as I said, across various industries, worked for over 20 years in Unilever, Airtel as the head of HR, and now with Infosys across very different industries. I think what I was passionate about is I was also the recently the national president of the National HRD network. I think the key thing for is a passionate is really looking at how to mentor and help people around. And I think that's what I'm really pleased to be joining this call. I'm looking forward to really sharing some insights with you and also here and learn from you on the challenges and some actions that you all are taking. Thanks. Thank you, Chris. And last but not least, Stephen. I've known Stephen now since I joined Hydragun Struggles for 18 months. We've had a call at least every month through the exception of one month. And what I would say is the most refreshing and handed to the point of view that has made me think deeply about a number of topics. So Stephen, with that, maybe you can give us a little 30 seconds on your background. You're too kind. And I'm embarrassed by the mono nature of my career after listening to Chris's background there. So Stephen Macalindan, I'm the regional leader for Hydragun Struggles is executive search business in Asia Pacific in the Middle East. I am in Hong Kong, where I have lived for nearly 30 years now. I've been in search for 35 years or so. I have my own company for many years and sold that to Hydrax and went to work for them. So I was in the unique position age 44 of never having had a boss until I started at Hydragun Struggles. And now they're very kind to ask me to look after the business for them in a sort of senior partner way. And then my day job is that I am a partner in our financial services practice, specializing in banking of all kinds across the whole region or principally in China. And my one bit of advice to anybody with a LinkedIn profile is find a good photo and never change it. I certainly have never changed mine. Interesting one Stephen. I think we all do that, right? We all keep the photo that we had from my, I certainly have one from my early years, but maybe it is time to change it. I don't know. Listen, let me start this conversation out. We do have a series of questions. One of the was raised for me just as we started this out with a breakout group. We talk about strengthening your brand, right? And we tend to often confuse the brand of an organization and an individual brand, right? So what we want to talk about and focus on today as you go into the workforce. And some of you have five, 10, 15, 20 years of experience. The brand that you individually create is the legacy that you're going to leave behind. At Hydric and struggles, we often say that the organization or the workforce tends to follow in the shadows of their leaders. Now this set of individuals on the screen today, you are the leaders of tomorrow. So the question that I have for you as you go through this next 45 minutes is start thinking about what is the shadow that you want to cast? You have got from point A to point B doing certain things. But to get from point B to point C to point D, you are going to have to jump the curve and do things very differently moving from, let's say, an individual contributor to a collective cohesive leader. And in a nutshell, that's what we're trying to lead towards today and get insights from our esteemed colleagues. So with that, one of the first parts I'd like to start with, and Richard, if you don't mind, I'd ask you to get us started here today, is if you look at the characteristics of a leader, what differentiates a highly successful leader today? Thank you, Azthik. And good evening, everybody who are joining in this conversation. I think it is truly a privilege to be speaking here on leadership. Now for me, I've not had a kind of career which is by design, it just happened. And like I was saying, I spent 13 years of my early life in a mid-sized firm. And I think one of the biggest learnings I got there was that I got a mentor very early in life, the owner of that firm. And so while he mentored me in the sense, I used to observe him, I used to learn from him. And one advice that I believe everybody, try and get a mentor as early as possible in your career. Some of you already worked, maybe you already have mentors. And some of you may be still looking out for that mentor. The mentor is somebody you trust, you admire, you want to treat them as a role model. So I think one is getting a mentor very quickly in life. I think leadership is not about titles. Leadership is not about positions. It's about how you actually create more leaders and how many lives you actually touch. Because when you achieve a leadership position, you go up that rank at LIDAR. And I always say that life is a circle. All the people you meet on your way up are the same people you meet on your way down. You treat them with respect. They will treat you with respect on your way down. That's a very, very big lesson. And I think Aztec, you did a good point by talking of this brand because many times we confuse the title and position we have. We get privileges. Let's not hide about it. So if you've got a particular title, you get privileges which come with it. But we should all know it's temporary. And we need to earn the respect because when the titles are stripped away from you, people respect you for who you are and how you conducted yourself. I think it's very, very important. So leaders need, so if I take these qualities and say leaders lead by example, they need to put purpose before profit. And one of the things that I learned very early in my life, I never called it higher purpose. But it was something that I practiced very closely which I now call higher purpose. And for me, it is firm before self, right through from my first organization where I worked. It was always with the organization, individuals don't matter. And how do you bring a personal meaning to the high purpose? You want people to follow you, you need to bring a personal meaning to it. They need to see that you live the values you talk about. Values are not on your screensavers. I mean, you see at KPMG, we have all these values written out there, but they're not about what being on the screensavers is about how you live. People see you, they observe you. And then they come back and tell you who they are. You need to care for your people and it's not, it's so much more important today. Us taking today's time in this COVID period, how many times leaders have called up their employees and asked about their well-being and said, okay, how are you feeling? There's not much you can do, but at least ask them how they are feeling, make them feel wanted. And leadership is about being service of others. It's about how you make others successful, not about yourself because you will succeed, but how do you make others successful? So qualities like empathy, humility are very, very important in good leaders. You don't need to beat your own drum. People will beat your drum. You're good. People are going to talk about you. It's not about creating a very fantastic profile and putting a great picture with a great suit, with a Italian tie and saying you're great, but it is what is inside you, how do you feel and how do you actually put it? So leaders need to, you know, always somebody asked me, so what does a leader do? So a leader inspires people. You know, when you're sitting standing there and you're trying to talk to X number of people, do you actually inspire them? Do they look up to you? Do they want to follow you? Are they actually aligned to your vision? As leaders we all have a vision, but can we get people aligned to that vision because that is the biggest failing of leadership. Let me tell you, when people and the leader are completely misaligned on the vision and that's where all the fallings take place. So that influence which you can have actually where you take all your thoughts, ideas and convert them into actions and leadership is all about execution. How well you execute your plan, which you put forward. And I would use one term today and I'll just leave it there. In today's time, leaders need to be antifragile and it is, I just want to leave this thought. Yolk and we can discuss it at some point at a time when you have a larger discussion. I think you need to be positive. This was one thing I learned from my mentor, be positive, be a problem solver because today what you're facing, what do leaders face? They get problems, right? You've got to give a solution to it and you need to be, you need to have a foresight. You need to be able to see new trends coming up and you should be able to work to actually deal with those trends. So leaders need to be visionary. The last thing before I know, I don't want to take too much more time is they need to delegate and empower people. You want to be in part, we want to be in part, I want to be in part. How much do you empower people around who work with you? I think that is very, very important. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you for Richard for starting us out. There's some profound insights. Even I did some notes over here. I'm certain that others are too. Krishna, if I could build on that a little bit and talk a little bit about what differentiates a leader today, could you add on to perhaps what Richard was talking about, maybe starting with the purpose piece? Yeah, I think I just want to take a minute just to go back to your original thing about this whole leadership brand. I think just to make it simple for every in all of us and I think this is a good thing. What is your leadership brand? I mean, that's something each of us have to ask ourselves and how will you know that? It's about if I ask the crowd, hey, what do you say about Tarun or what do you say about Aziz? What do you hear back is your leadership brand? Yeah, that's what you build. If people say, yeah, here's a guy who is passionate, etc, etc, etc, that's your brand. So leadership brand is what people talk about. And the brand could be different. It could be something internally, something externally. So I think that's the first thing in terms of what do people kind of know about you? What do people really see in you? And they'll only see in you something that is distinctive. If you're average, they won't say anything much. They'll say, fine, he's a good guy. But that is where you got to really say, what is the edge that I want to build? And that's very important. And leadership without an edge is not really going to go make things change. And you can choose whatever range and that's based on your strengths, that based on what you're passionate about, various things. Some people may choose the edge of being like, I'm more of a people guy, I'm going to be mentoring them, I'm going to be developing them, I'm going to be coaching them. So those kind of people when you hear, hey, what do you say about Alpah or somebody? Then you'll hear, you'll hear think back about this great leader, the coach people, etc. There could be others who say, listen, I'm going to be really all about vision. I'm going to be talking about the conceptual, I'll inspire people through the future and all that stuff. That's another type of thing. And you can decide which one you want to be. Sometimes difficult to be good at everything. You have to choose, you probably have to have trade offs. And I think that's very important. So therefore, my personal view is, choose an edge, work on it because that's very important because that that will differentiate you from the others. There's got to be some hygiene. I mean, you can't be a kind of a completely disastrous people leader and say, I want to be only your strategy. I mean, you want to go far. But I think there is a little bit of an hygiene, but if you want to be a great leader, choose what are the areas that you want to really be world class and choose and build on those. There's just one other point I want to make here. I found this very, very useful. When you look at anybody's career or anybody's thing, a career is like, I see in my own view, I see it like a DNA strand. It's a DNA strand of two things. If there is one about the kind of jobs you've done, the skills you have, what you have done, your CV, it'll say, I've done this, this, this, this. That's one part of your career. The other part is how people see you, what you are. That's the second part of the DNA. Early on in our careers, I think we focus more on the kind of jobs that we're doing. That's what people see. You've got these kinds of experiences. But slowly you're building up the other story also. You're building up what you are. It's not coming out very prominently in the early stage, but it will come out very prominently in the later stages. That's the one that you've got to keep in mind. Because when you really become, all of you are leaders, we're going to go now, pass the second half of that thing. Now it's very important for people for you to build what you're known for, what is the legacy you're going to leave. That's very important. That's what you've got to define for yourself. That's where someone will have a purpose. Someone will have something else, but you've got to build it. You've got to be building that narrative for yourself saying, this is what I'm going to be known for. This is the legacy I want to leave and start working on it. I think therefore, as I said, while there are various things that are good for leaders, work on something which is distinctive for you. Work on your age. Choose whatever you're good at, whatever you're passionate and make that. Also, keep in mind that our career and what we're good at is a DNA strand of the jobs you've done and what you're good at, what people talk about you. Both these are there, they intertwine. The first half of your career, it's all about what you're doing. The second half of your career, it's about what you are. Therefore, that's what you've got to build as you want to be a great leader. I'm getting chills as I hear this. I recall, if I go back to my days in Singapore, passing one of these boards and there was a note that said over there. I don't remember the distinct exactly the letters, but what it basically said is, in the end of the day, do you want to have a signature or do you want to have an autograph? What is the legacy that you're leaving behind? When we talk about this unique value proposition, you call it brand, I may call it the shadow that a leader has, how people look at you. Steve, if you could come in please and perhaps comment on what differentiates a leader and maybe build off what we spoke about here in terms of the legacy, the brand, the shadow for us. I think it's all about authenticity. We're developing things that Richard and Chris said. The leader of today that we assess and we're asked to assess on behalf of corporates, be they local or multinational around the world, government institutions, et cetera, et cetera. A lot of it comes down to the same thing these days, which is you need to have a very authentic shadow. There can be a world of difference between what you say as a leader and what you do and what shows through how you act every day in the smallest ways include, and in addition to the big sweep of your grand strategic vision, people can see that authenticity. I think we see it a lot in sporting leaders, very easy to see that kind of charismatic leader coming through, but we're seeing that more and more in business now, this new kind of very authentic, highly empathetic leader. Thinking about it based on our conversations the last few days, the person who really stands out for me a lot these days is Jane Fraser, the new CEO at City Group. I think the way that Jane has gone about delivering the kind of new message that she wants for a bank like City, which is very caring for all of its people, from the most junior people who are there on internship through to the people who've been there 30 or 40 years, showing concern for people's views, particularly if you're going to try and bring younger people along with you, you can't dismiss the ideas that they have because they might not be naturally where you feel comfortable discussing. You have to bring everybody with you and you have to be a very, very, the kind of leader who has a very broad tend to bring everybody in with it. As we assess these days, more and more it comes down to those two things, a very simple level. It's a genuine desire to care and to drive the business forward in a sincere way and the empathy and the authenticity that comes with that, you can't fake it. People will see it. The interview panel will see it and when it comes to the final decision about who should get a role and who shouldn't get a role in a room of technically superb people, it almost always comes down to those facts. Thank you, Steve. We see we're getting a set of diverse insights over here from the team and we surely will capture some of these insights and then share it with you afterwards. I want to double click a little bit into some of what I know, having spoken to the MBA graduates, a lot of them that we have hired into companies over the last few years. In your opinion and Chris maybe we could start with you. A little bit of a double click and a challenging question here. In your experience, where can MBAs, MBA graduates contribute the most and can you give us an example of what made derailed them? I'll set a little bit of context for this. A lot of times when I go and I do these sessions on campus, most of the MBAs are technically astute even when they get at a superior leadership level, profound insights and they can spin data around my mind using the Monte Carlo approach and saying here's the probability of a product being successful and here's the risk of it, right? But could you tell me a little bit about now going back to my question with that context of the technical side you spoke about the experience, where can an MBA graduate therefore contribute the most? And I will ask the second question in there, what perhaps derails them when they get into the workplace? What derails them? Both sides. No, I think this is like a Pandora's box, we can go on talking about this. Well, I personally believe MBA graduates can contribute anywhere, they know the name every job. I think that I don't think there's anything we can see you guys can't do this or can't do that, I think they can do everywhere. But let's see where they can really make a bigger mark or where and what do they need to do to really make a bigger part of the business. So that's very important. Let me just step back and I like this kind of just thinking about jobs. In most jobs, there is a part which is all about a strong analytical part, there is a strong part where you do, so therefore when you start off your career, you do a lot of analytics, you do look at, that's the thing. But as you grow in your career, you've got to now look at the bigger picture much more. You've got to see the patterns a lot more. You don't have to do so much of the analysis, you've got to start saying, well, what are the patterns? What do I see and how do I link those patterns? And that's where the MBA graduates come in. And I think, and not all, and I won't put MBA or not MBA. I mean, MBA graduates are trained to do the analysis. They've also got the concepts to think the big picture and see the patterns. So the successful leaders, the successful MBA graduates are the ones who start moving on that thing much faster. You do your analysis, but you're not stuck on it. You're looking at the patterns, you're thinking about it. You're kind of saying, this is how I see it. And that's what is a hallmark of a great MBA because you know the concept. You've got the overall framework, you've got the analysis. How do you link it? How do you do, I mean, in Unilever, we used to have a very nice saying, which I even now think called a helicopter view. And what does that helicopter view mean that you go down into details and do a lot of analysis, but you also go up and look at the big picture, look at the strategy, look at the patterns that are there. And I think that's what a great leader or should do. And I think MBA, MBA people are probably most qualified to do that. So therefore, just to reframe the question, a great MBA person, because he or she has got all the kind of background to do both these elements has to do that, has to have that helicopter view and move that. So that's one area. So any job where you want to be successful, do the analytics, the analytical part, get to the details, but quickly look at the big picture, quickly look at the patterns, quickly see what you can do and keep that picture in mind. Because that's sometimes very difficult. Many people fail to do that. They end up being too engrossed in one versus the other. So therefore, the ideal leader has to really start working on it and doing that. So that's number one. The second one is, again, you start off being a kind of individual contributor. And as you grow in your career, you become a leader of leader. And that's where many things that Richard said comes in, because you now have to start delegating a lot more. You've got to put your team and your company ahead of yourself. All of those are very important. And I think they will only come when you're sure of yourself, when you're kind of, when you have self-confidence, that's important. So you've got to start building that and that will help you become a leader of bigger teams. So a great MBA, I mean, and then the MBA teaches you that, you know, you work, you know, you work with people, you get different perspectives. So you MBA teaches you that. But therefore, you've got to start saying, how do I move from being just a contributor to a leader of teams? And that means thinking broader, that means kind of putting the purpose of the company, putting your company and team ahead, you know, developing people, giving them space, delegating all of those. And that means reducing your ego a little bit, but kind of, you know, ensuring that there is this humility that comes in. And that's, again, a hallmark of a great leader. And MBA helps you do that because it gives you all the, all the concepts of that you are agile and flexible in doing both parts of this. Yeah. So therefore, that's the thing. Now to the last question that Astik asked, which is about what D-ray is leaders? Yeah, what D-ray is what good? I think this is a very, very important question. And, you know, I'll go back, I mean, to my old experience in Unilever, we used to have a very solid MBA, you know, management training program. And they were all like, you know, great leaders, et cetera. But we could easily see the D-raylers in the first three years of their jobs. Yeah, easily. And there are three key D-raylers that are there. The first D-rayler is arrogance. Yeah. People who are just arrogant, they don't learn. Arrogance is the first D-rayler because arrogance about what you've read, you may be a topper from Aayam Amtabar. But here you are, when you're doing like an area sales manager and doing a district in Karnataka, you've got to respect the local people. You've got to respect the practices. You've got to listen to them. Yeah. And you know, people who be chairman of Unilever are the ones who really sat down, listen to people and learn from them. Yeah. So humility is very important. So one of the big D-raylers is arrogance. Yeah. And what does arrogance do? It doesn't make you learn. It, you know, it puts people off. And it's such a kind of a thing which is, you know, I wonder why people don't see it, but arrogance is, you know, a powerful D-rayler. The second D-rayler is think about getting too, in a way, I wouldn't call it maybe perfectionist or too much stuck in this analysis and not looking at the big picture. That's the other D-rayler because people don't grow. So you become like too much into analysis, getting too much perfection of your model, but not saying, okay, what do I want to achieve at looking at the big picture? So that's a second D-rayler. That's that's it. I think these are the two big ones, you know, and there could be others. The third one, I mean, if I were to just kind of, you know, force that is about not being, not having this ability to learn, you know, people say, I think that's the third one because you have to be open to risks and open to learning. You know, and people don't do that, then you won't, then you won't do. And that's another big D-rayler where people are trying out new things are open to learn saying, okay, I want to learn from people. And that's what opens you up to things like talking to a mentor, talking to peers, talking to older people on the shop floor, talking to older people on the field force, you know, just talking to clients. I think that's that's that curiosity is very, very important. And if you don't have that, that could be a big deal. So it's a long, long speech, but I just thought I'll just outline the three that I've seen are big D-raylers that that exist. I love the thoughts. Stephen, would you like to add to that from what differentiates them and perhaps what's the challenge? Sure, we tend to see MBAs later in their career because we're working mostly at CEO and board level. But when I have access to MBAs sort of newly minted, I think the things that come through that are nice to see are the fresh thinking. There's always new ideas coming through the MBA programs, things that people who are in the business all day every day don't necessarily know about or engage with. So fresh ideas, new thinking as it's coming through the best schools is always fascinating to see and enriches the business. And the enthusiasm that people bring out of MBA school to put those new ideas to work in the field, the momentum that comes with that is always a very, very desirable thing to see. And it enriches an organization and can really make it even a new burst of energy. I would develop Chris's point on the D-rayler. I think it's a narrowness of thinking and a didactic, overly didactic style. When you've learned something and you want to tell everybody about it, that's great. But there comes a certain point where you do have to sit back and listen. And I think not being able to listen and not being able to move away from that hard-earned thing that you spent the last couple of years learning to perfection and seeing that in the round and gaining the wisdom of people who might have less academic experience than you do, but have a lot more of the wisdom of being there on the shop floor every day with customers every day and really knowing what it is customers wanting. So I think the biggest D-rayler is a lack of listening capability. Wonderful, Stephen. You know a lot of the work that we do with kind of the upper middle management is about building inclusive, influential leaders. And this talks to the fact that you may know the answers to everything, but you don't have to put it out right away. You have to bring your team along with you is I think what also Chris was saying. Richard, would you like to add on to and if I could reset the question because we've gone through a couple of different insights here is where do you think MBA graduates and whether it's now or five or 10 years from now, where can they contribute the most? And could you give us a few ideas of what could be the D-raylers? Yeah, so thanks Azthik. I think both Chris and Stephen have spoken a lot. I don't want to get into that and I'll just add a few things from my side. I think MBA graduates are especially from ISB where you take mid-career and the kind of training, the learning you get is really phenomenal and the kind of people who come out also. And the one big issue that I have with the entire MBA program and as I see it, especially in today's time, is there is not much emphasis on business ethics. And we have seen organizations, shareholder value getting destroyed by wrong behavior of the leaders and I'm not talking just the CEO, I'm just talking of leaders who sit on the top table. So I think there needs to be a much more emphasis on business ethics and how important it is, especially in the technology world in which we live and everything is tech-enabled and technology is good, it was supposed to be a unifier but it's actually gone the other way around in many cases. It can be misused, it can be used, it can be misused. So I think that is one definitely something that I would look. The second one which I would see is how innovative are you in the way you're going to work because today all the current business models have been challenged and I'm not sure in the B schools we are talking about the new age companies which are coming in, which are now actually center stage, the startup economy, etc. which are now got all the values, I mean if you take all the new companies, so are there sufficient learning for these new age companies, for the MBAs, so maybe that is something that needs to get done. Secondly, while we are doing our course, we are in a very highly competitive spirit with each other, we're trying to outdo each other, we're trying to be the best, we're trying to get the gold medal, etc. And you come into your work, the whole world suddenly gets shattered in front of you because now it's no more about competition, it is about how do you work collaboratively in a team, how do you come together and make the organization successful and you work with your colleagues, so that's a big mindset shift I would say and so while being, while doing an MBA I would say we should, the one thing which I didn't talk on leadership pasting when you asked that first question on leadership, I think one very important aspect of leadership is networking and I will say the strength of an individual is the network you build and we should not get worried about the network because we build networks at our levels as we work the organization that network because that network is also going up, our current network is also all the values are going up, so network is the biggest asset you can have as you hit the top, at least in our consulting practice I can say the biggest network, the biggest asset is our network, if you don't have a network you won't get a partner's job anywhere, I mean they'll say useless and I would say the other very important point as you'll come out into organizations is because there's a whole crowd there, how do you differentiate yourself, how are you very different from the rest, do you make an impact, so I mean things around soft skills it's about content, I mean both are important, content is very important, Chris spoke about it, it's really important but how do you put it across, how do you connect the dots, how do you are able to look at the bigger picture and I know I'm repeating it but I think what Steven said about listening, I think it's so powerful and I remember Nelson Mandela once said that he learned from his father who was the tribal leader that he would go and sit in these tribal meetings, he was ahead but he would never speak, he would let everybody else speak and so Nelson Mandela asked his father why don't you speak, you're the leader, he said no I want to listen to everybody and then I will have my last word because what has happened, two things you achieve, one is you make everybody feel wanted, everybody's ideas taken maybe you get some great ideas then you want to change some of your thinking while getting those ideas, so I think listening skills is very, very important and I will not under-emphasize it and you know Chris spoke about arrogance but and I completely agree with him and I've seen in my personal career people just falling off, I mean they go down a slippery path you cannot climb back but you need to have an attitude, I would say but be careful don't let the attitudes spill into arrogance but you need to have an attitude because once you have that attitude you need to be premium, you need to think premium, you need to think that you're very different because that's when you bring value to an organization because you are a brand ambassador for that organization and you're a brand ambassador for yourself so remember these two things being the brand for yourself and I will say the brand the way I look at it is it's like I used to work in KPMG so somebody calls up KPMG says I want a show to come and work on my project that is the brand he has built right, so they come to KPMG but they've asked for a particular individual and that's the brand that you want to build and forget I'm talking consulting but that's the only business I know honestly but I'm sure this is applicable to all organizations and that brand let me tell you once you hang up your boots is going to pay you a lot of dividends because a lot of people are going to come back to you because that's what impact you have left on them and the last one I will leave with you before I go off on this one is critical thinking is very important creativity as you all go into your jobs there will be you know service orientation how I mean we have spoken about it I don't want to negotiation skills are very important negotiation skills are very important they are critical actually because you're negotiating all the time you're negotiating either with your boss you should negotiating your colleagues with your customers with the suppliers everywhere it's about negotiation so that is very very important and pay attention with these kind of items are being taught to you while at your school at school or while you're studying yeah thank you Mr. Richard I'd say you know I realize we have a mix of consulting here but I'd be honest most roles today whether you're on the product side on the sales side on a delivery side consulting and I'm not me I don't mean to say consulting as in a role at a KPMG or a hydrant our roles are as consultants right most of the MBA graduates that are they're facilitating they're influencing so the consulting part I think is critical for all of us I know I'm going a little bit off track here with a set of questions but we were vehemently nodding when we started talking about the networking part so I'd ask Chris or Steven if you want to jump in any opinion on how networking is something that can help you as perhaps you grow your career and it may not be right as you graduate but over the next 15 years I asked if Chris will have insights into that from his role that none of us could ever see but I wanted to pick up on one thing that Richard said about negotiating negotiating skills are absolutely crucial and the I used to think and I think a lot of people on this call today will think I used to think good negotiating was I win and you lose and that was a good negotiation I've learned over the years from watching clients and my own negotiations painfully at times that that's not a good negotiation at all a great negotiation is where everybody gets something from negotiation and something is left on the table I'd really encourage everyone to think of negotiating in every aspect of the business life in a holistic way think about what the long-term gains are going to be from that and my experience of 35 years of negotiating it pretty much everything is when there's something left for everybody that's a good negotiation because then you have something that's a sustainable agreement I just I thought that was a super point I was going to pick up on Chris would you like to jump in perhaps on networking or do you want to reflect on another point of view or there perhaps no that's fine I think networking see I think we've got to look back look step back and say why do you need to network yeah and I think there are a couple of reasons and you know and I'm trying to talk a bit about that there is a network within the company and there's a network outside the company yeah so these are two important things you gotta network within the company is important because you know in most companies a lot of work is done through those networks you guys have all worked you know right I think you've got to have those kind of internal networks I think what do these do these networks help you understand what's happening help you get you know get things across you know that's very important so look at how wherever you go in any company look at how do you build that network because and there are and it varies from companies to company yeah there may be some companies where internal network is far more important than anything external because you've got to get a lot of things done and for for functions like HR and finance the internal network is crucial because you know we can't get anything done without getting the internal network and working with people yeah so therefore it may that's very important so I think and and building that internal network is critical because you know key functions that you work with key key influencers or leaders with whom you can you know you need to really work because in the end work in large corporations is all about sometimes selling your ideas it's about pushing things you know and nobody's going to say Bob is a great thing I'll do it because there'll be three others who will say why not this so therefore you've got to have those networks you've got to influence you've got to talk and that's where this building the brand becomes very important that's where your reliability that's where you're you know what that you know if they know that yeah Rohit is x y z then I think you can build that network yeah and that that's very important now let's look at the external network why is that external network important I think two or three things firstly the external network brings in lots of ideas which is very important you know most one of the things that most of us are guilty of is becoming too internally focused and not externally focused yeah and that's why I also been telling my leaders go and look at building an external network look at what's happening what is happening in the environment what's happening in the startup ecosystem and see how you can build that that's very important because it gives you you know in terms of a picture of what's going to happen you know and helps you connect the dot help you look at the big picture that's why that external network is important it also help you with your professional contacts yeah it'll help you and if you're in sales especially in like b2b sales or in consulting it'll help you with your business because unless you have an external network you can't grow your business so in jobs like sales or consulting the external network helps you with your business in any other job I think the external network helps you when you want to really look at you know and there you got to choose people you know don't go look for people who will give you those ideas therefore even networking has to be planned you know look for different industries join you know identify there are lots of groups where you say what's happening I also follow some thought leaders so you understand what's happening in your own industry so two or three kinds of networking one is in your professional group one is an industry generally what's happening so all that will help you really build that network it'll help you connect and get new ideas and network so I think networking that way has got to be it's not just I want to go have a cup of coffee and I want to you know I go to LinkedIn and become friends with somebody that doesn't help it's networking it's not the number but the quality and the focus of how you build that network you know that's very very and it'll vary from different roles you do for sales and consulting that's crucial so you got to do it in a much more critical way than the external network. Beautiful thank you for that question listen we have about 10 or maybe 15 minutes left right I want to fast forward a little bit here and perhaps ask you a set of questions that takes us into the future so we started talking about leaders today and what is expected what do you need to do differently how do we need to look at a number of different leadership attributes if we fast forward ourselves right let's say to 2025 maybe let's even say 2020 which is a good you know eight years ahead of us at this point I did do the math guys I can talk about Monte Carlo but the math is still coming to me right if you look at 2030 how do you think leaders will be different in terms of technology orientation geopolitical outlook how they manage a multi-generation workforce or customer base do you see things evolving what will be different let's say by 2030 Stephen would you mind if I start with you there especially as you work with some of the leaders in the top of the road. Well one of the things that's fascinating me is the businesses in more traditional times pre-covid were really about running the business making a profit etc all the traditional things that we were always taught a business are one of the things that we're seeing as businesses evolve is the and Richard talked on it the moral dimension the need for companies to have a viewpoint on the world to have a viewpoint on things like climate change and other sort of hot topic issues which traditionally companies wouldn't necessarily have thought were part of their remit more and more and more we're seeing the the leaders of the future of people who have not so much strong opinions on those things but up to date with current thinking and can debate it with people I think this is very very important as we scale up to deal with a younger generation of workforce coming through who have as it would appear to be from some of the data different impulses for what they're looking for from a company so I think this this moral ethical much more out in in the world every day rather than just the basics of profit and loss and market share and IP and things like that I think the leaders of the future are going to have to have they're going to have to be very well versed in the themes of the day and have a view on how their company is working within that within that conversation because I think the ubiquity of social media and how that informs people's views of a corporate and what a leader is is going to become more and more and more a relevant issue so how you can face off against that how comfortable you seem in doing that and whether you step in only landmines along the way which I think the more you're out in the public world talking about these things that are not just your quarterly results the more issues there could be there so I think it's that that broader interaction with the with the world as it is today could you ask yeah no I think the I think Stephen kind of gave a great idea of what the future is I think if you look at what are the changes in the future I think three or four things yeah this focus on purpose social impact because you know that's becoming a big area so I think leaders have to be conscious of that the second one is we're going to have a much more diverse workforce you know I think multi-generational you know and then the amount of diversity in a workforce is going to increase phenomenally you know every country everywhere you're going to see the growth of diversity but leading and managing that diversity managing multicultural workforce is going to be very important so leaders of the future have to really be very good at that you know inclusive and diverse kind of that's that's the second one the third one is I think what really is going to happen is you're going to see a lot more the speed of change is going to be much more yeah so you're going to have technology changes you're going to have much more industry kind of you know I've read somewhere that the the average life cycle of kind of company on the you know the New York Stock Exchange has come down by almost half over 30 years so you know the companies will get business models will get kind of you know questioned therefore as a leader you've got to be you know ahead of the curves you've got to keep learning and and be much more much more what we call as there is this new word which I like actually called growth mindset you know it's not about being fixed in your thinking but being flexible saying listen what can I learn how can I learn how can I move forward yeah so having that always curious experimentative growth mindset with Satya Nadella talks so very well about so I think that's going to be very very important as we go forward so I think those are the three or four things which are going to be more important in the future and Chris you and I spoke a few weeks ago about kind of the adaptive intelligence hunger for growth right how do you get beyond your core and be curious to think beyond even if you're the technical expert in an area how do you use that insight to go beyond right things are evolving very fast Richard can I pull you in for a couple minutes on that question also yeah so I think a lot has been said I'll just take on one or two dimensions on it the first one is on the future of business there is so much of change happening forget COVID even pre-COVID technology was so pervasive in our lives we were looking at a very different I think COVID is fast forwarded everything if you ask me it's taken us five years ahead to what we would have got to I mean we're doing this call is an evidence of that you know zoom was always there but we never used it to this extent so I think the important point is how are leaders looking at the new trends that are happening I'm just giving a small example we have already seen the payment system already disrupted right but let me tell you there's a really big disruption going to happen in the payment systems are we ready for it are we ready to see what's going to come come about it so leaders the point why I'm making just taking this one point it was leaders need to think ahead and they need to plan and say okay is Bitcoin going to come in is there some other way of currency which is there because a digital currency is just a faster way of the current currency it's not really bringing efficiency in but you know the new way of underlying you know monetary transactions are they going to happen but I think the more important point is our state which we have not discussed today and I want to raise two points here one is agility of the leader of how agile is he and I think Chris raised it you know how quickly they are adapting change but how agile is the leader going to be and is able to change with the time able to see what is there and also at times realize that you may be the CEO but you're not the right guy to lead there's somebody else is better to lead it and I think you have that humility to say let this individual lead it he'll do a better job than me I think that kind of collective leadership is going to come in and I can tell you very clearly with a lot of funds and a lot of financial companies now saying investors saying that we will only invest in companies that are following ESG right and they're not going to invest so if you are not following sustainability and Chris you have worked in a company called Unilever and Paul Pullman was the guy who brought sustainability and people laughed at it and there was a loss and you know everything but see where that has become their biggest competitive advantage so these are actually in a way bottom line driven it's no more you know good to have it is actually helping your business and giving a competitive edge so I think leaders need to lead from the front and they need to believe it and be a champion of it not just come in you know give some lectures and you know and then move on with it so I think purpose integrity these are going to be very very strong kind of things and the next generation you know like even while I was in KPMG we already had various generations working and let me tell you they are questioning the status core they are questioning the very basic in fact you wonder who's interviewing who because they ask you a lot of company you're a lot of questions as to what does your firm do how does it actually deal with this situation how are you looking at environment and you know what is your views the company firms view on that so I think they are much more aware they are much more knowledgeable than what we were at their age and I think this new generation is going to drive the change what they want to see and I think that's where companies will have to get to if they want and also the new workforce my view is this gig economy as we call it today and Krishi must be aware of this may become mainstream because you know there are two ways one is generalist I think the days of generalist in my view my view is almost over I mean you will not be able to you need to be deep specialist in areas and one company may not need you for eight hours so one company may need you for two hours and you go and sell your time to another company for another two hours and I think the deep specialization is going to take you there so upskilling so just doing your MBA from a great school is good but lifelong learning is going to be your thing so we'll have to get ready for that and one last point I would like to leave it's got not related to this question but it could also be how do you build relationships and authentic relationships because I'll tell you a relationship building is very very important for the network also which you're going to build but and you know we are all transactional I have some work with you I think I'll call you and do that work and then I'll be off but there is no true relationship building and I know when we did a survey many few years back to ask the clients as to what is the one reason you appoint a firm for consulting and the one number one reason was relationship number one not the technical all everybody's expected to be technically good relationship is number one and I think that is something which all of us need to build it means a lot of investment and I will leave one small tip with you if you help a person when they are down and out when they bounce back you can be rest assured you will so don't you know break your relationship because somebody is going through a hard time in life keep that relationship going because they helped you many times while you were you know going through your hard times please remember that and and they will come back and I've seen it personal examples I've got enough in my life to say that they do work and they give back in my many fold. I want to pick up on something you said about agility and we genuinely believe that five eight years even now we're seeing agility as one of the key differentiators right and for the folks on the on the call that are dialing in if you look at our website so you look up agility with others websites also right you'll find that there are four components in there so from a framework we look at it as one is I think what Chris you mentioned a little bit about foresight your ability to kind of build your own crystal ball but do that with the knowledge that you have to kind of start looking with intuition into the future the second one is adaptability everything we speak about today is the ability to to kind of pivot at the drop of a dime right there's constant change shift in technology learning is critical we think about learning and relearning adaptive intelligence let go what you know and try to learn more be more curious and the last part we look at agility is around resilience and with this constantly shifting world we're going to have to learn how do we reset every time for resilience whether it's waves whether it's economic situations whether it's you know there are going to be a number of instances your personal aspects in your life that change are going to need a certain level of resilience in this global world I'd like to ask the panel members to think about if there's one thing from your years of experience one piece of wisdom or a nugget of wisdom you would say you want to leave behind with this next generation of leaders what would that one piece of wisdom be Richard could I start with you for me I think it would be trust because we need to build trust in ourselves and we have realized everything works around trust authenticity trust and being genuine about what we are doing because if we are genuine I think half the problems all the question which came up can all be answered with that so genuine trust authenticity I would just leave that as thank you Richard Stephen we've talked a lot about lifetime learning I see so many leaders who start off very brightly with great ideas and then somewhere in their career their views on things become ossified and they stick to a particular way of looking at something or thinking about something and they can't adapt to the way the world is changing Chris said things are changing faster and faster and they're going to change faster and faster again that's not good nor bad it's just the reality keep an open and active mind at all times or just about every aspect of business life because that is going to be there that's the trap that you can fall into to stick to a perceived way of doing things and then a second point would be genuine caring concern for the people you're leading if there's one single aspect of leadership that we're always looking for we ask people why do they want to lead do you just want the title of you genuinely want to make a difference and making a difference yes it's about having a vision for the business it's about having a view on on revenue and profitability and all of those things the really successful leaders I think are those who really have genuine care for the people who are working for them I think much has been said I try and summarize my three words for it yeah not one but three words I think the first one is what I would call as a learning or a growth mindset yeah I think that's very critical yeah as a leader you've got to say how do I keep learning you know and look at every opportunity as a learning opportunity that's number one number two is I think of you know Richard spoke about it Steven spoke about it this I would say is this having the purity of intent you know in terms of what it is and the authentic and authenticity I think those are very critical because they are the ones which will define you you know as a leader so you know be clear about you know have that have that authenticity in how you really work and and and let all your actions be driven by you know what I would still learn an intent which is pure yeah I think the last part is we all have to you know all this is good but you've got to yourself talk about what kind of a leader you want to be yeah I think put that picture of that yourself and work on it yeah keep on revising it and say this is what it is because leadership is all about you know being the better version of yourself yeah and therefore it needs work you don't we don't realize it but it needs continuous work but that's something I would urge all of you to really put an aspirational version of yourself and start working on it thank you Gresh I want to add two points from this one in my career having worked in in different places in incorporating and consulting in my own form a number of different things I think one thing that has been core to my soul that I've had to learn and adapt is what I call is grit and that's the ability to just manage and deal you spoke somebody who spoke about the the interaction the politics the drama that changes the ebbs and flows and I think that inbuilt grit is something that you build in time but you constantly need to start thinking about how do you strengthen your own personal grit is the one part I'd say the second part and we're going to close on this is I find having worked with the number of mba uh cohorts over the last 45 years especially with isb listen you guys are going to go you guys and girls I mean are going to go into the workplace and you are the stars of tomorrow but what I find is something that Roger Federer the tennis player Roger Federer said a few years ago was when Novak Djokovic and and the team came into the play and this is now I'm forgetting the name as I say Nadal sorry when Djokovic and Nadal came to play with him the entire game of tennis got raised multiple levels and it wasn't just Roger Federer speaking about himself he said because they played so well our entire game went up and I think it's up for this cohort of leaders to not just look at yourself as an individual but how do you collectively bring up the game of the organization that you're in working with your colleagues who are smart smarter or as smart as you to take that forward right how do you increase the level of your game going forward so listen guys we have about five minutes left I know in an hour and a half at least with the isb students blocked out we have used the entire time I would personally like to thank Chris Richard and Stephen for the time you've taken I recognize that this is one uh Stephen it's late on your end uh getting late into the evening um Christian and Richard this is a lot of time out of your schedule I love the fact that we are all contributing to its delivering on this next generation of leaders and last and if not most important here who has been a constant support at isb to run these programs right what you learn in school at university is critical that will get you one mark more than the person next to you but what's going to get you beyond in your career to become the leaders of tomorrow is probably everything that you have heard today so with that thank you to the audience thank you to shiv and again Richard Stephen and rich thank you for