 This is the Open Global Mind weekly call on Thursday, October 26th. We were just talking about David Graber's book about the pirates and Madagascar. An anarchist enterprise apparently. So you just asked that I start the eye companion it should have started already. I'm confused by it and I turn it on and it sometimes gives me some reason sometimes doesn't. I haven't figured it out yet. Oh intriguing mind has been consistently good where I get a nice summary after every call and it's turned on automatically before all calls. Hi Judy. Hi, how are you today. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And whoops. Too many windows too many buttons. We're in a state of button overwhelm notifications. Yeah, exactly. Here we go. Here we go. The Betty's the Betty's. Betsy me Saraca people. And the book is called Pirate Enlightenment or the real Libertalia by David Graber and the leader is. That's a mouthful. We're just picking the next country that Doug should go visit because he seems to be doing the ends. He's in Malaysia right now. Much more temperate than Minnesota, I'm sure. The weather has been fantastic for the eight weeks I've been here. That's a long time. Doug is that feeling like permanent home now or are you going to be popping to other places. Well, who knows. Okay. Good answer. It's feeling pretty. Have you heard the term coddy whampling. Yes, I've heard it but I don't remember what it is. It's basically to travel in a purposeful manner towards a vague destination. And it's one of April it's one of the books and one of the words in April's flux book which is why I know about it. It's a good work. It's a good work. And here's an essay. Why you should coddy whample your way through life. I know a person once a year would put a dark board behind it on the wall face backwards with his back to the dark board throw a dart. And on the board was of course the map of the world. So it would determine where he went next. Did they spend a lot of time on the ocean. You keep throwing until you hit land right. I think it's right he did so. Yeah. Gotta have some rules with dark games. Hey Pete. I steered us back toward the music topic and I don't know where anybody would like to start or even if you are enthused about the topic but we'd sensed a lot of enthusiasm last time we were on it. Do you want to say anything more about it from just the word music. What is the topic. Music. And, and I'm, I'm being vague intentionally because I don't know what might show up if I under determine the topic. And it would be really interesting to take us you know maybe his music therapy maybe it's a friend of a friend of ours does sound therapy and has a whole room in her house. There are gongs that you can sit under and or tubular bells that she walks by and rings and a whole bunch of really interesting sound stuff. Go ahead Doug. I have one to start with. If play us as you can tell the quality of society by his music. What is our music telling us. Do you have an answer that I don't. Although I have kind of an observation which is when when society gets when there's a lot of stress. You get better music, you know, so the Vietnam War made a lot of great music. So, so anytime, like, I feel stressed about the stuff going on society is like well at least we'll get good pop songs out of it in five years or something like that. So I had a kind of to maybe maybe kind of to gills question music, so music what and your answer is great, of course, I would love to have a music call where I had done a little bit of prep for show and tell, because you know I have a bunch of stuff I would love to show and tell. But it's not something that I can, I can dig up on the fly, except I have one thing I have a really interesting observation. I think it was Ken on our last music call introduced me to a new acapella pop acapella group that I love. The Korean group matri so it's a wonderful thing to find so that just that find made like six months of OGM calls worthwhile. Not that not that they're not worthwhile already but you know, now we've got like a bank of like, you know, really crappy calls that we could have that are still the whole thing is worthwhile. So they do, they do a cover of a a kpop song and the kpop song is actually a kind of a fake kpop song it's by the biggest kpop band boy band. But it was actually written by I think an Irish guy, maybe Scottish guy. And a young guy it turns out this this the particular song is an incredible earworm. And so I can tell, I think they actually shopped it around the guy wrote it and started playing it for different music producers and they actually had like a bidding war for the song. So this kpop group won the bidding war and did a good job with it. It's all in English. So it's kind of a stealth way for BTS the band to get more world exposure. So, so I never really got this song from pop culture three years ago when it came out and so I was hearing it for the first time and I heard it for the first time by this acapella group. And it's enchanting. It's super, super lovely and I play it over and over and over. And the group is super cute together and they're super the thing I like best about live performances is kind of the interplay between the people working together at the same time to do a complicated harmonic, you know, harmonically constructed thing. And then they do it socially kind of right everybody has to be on cue and doing the beats at the right time and everything like that and they just do a superb job at it. So I am enchanted by this thing. So then I went okay well I guess I have to listen to the real one I went over to the real one. It's kind of like overproduced it's not as much fun it's kind of full of junk and blah blah blah. But anyway, the, so that the odd, the odd observation I wanted to make sorry for the long prelude. It is a real like real intense earworm. I'm hearing it like five days later, you know I play it and then I'm like okay I'm not they don't want to hear that I loved hearing the eight the acapella group I didn't really like the real one. But like over and over and over, it keeps playing in my head and not many songs are have been that persistent for me as an earworm, and this one is really nasty that way. So, I thought it was an interesting observation to make that that some are more than others, and this one is really intense. What was the specific song Pete. We're dying to be infected. Well, you know that I purposely kind of steered away from it and I did a probably a poor job of like saying that you didn't want to hear the song but but I purposely stayed away from it because I don't want to inflict an earworm on folks because literally. I want to know what it is so I can avoid it. This is this is Pete wearing an audio mask. I'm on my free YouTube page but it's got like a billion acapella songs. I have the name swapped out. And I could sing it to myself of course I hear it over and over and over and over. I'll put it in chat. So listen to the acapella one first at least you want to put a trigger warning next to it when you post it I'll put a trigger warning yes. What's that. We have a trigger emoji. We should there should be totally but if it was a gun which would be natural that would be a trigger in itself so probably a bad idea to do that but it's an only a negative it's pretty much a negative trigger so a different trigger would be better. That reminds me by the way totally different totally different topic but I remember in social text up on the whiteboard somebody was pretty good drawing figures, different kinds of like art stuff, and we had our quarterly onsite. We distributed companies so we had onsites instead of offsites. So during the onsite, somebody, one of the things that came up was kill your darlings, a good kind of heuristic for creative endeavors, you know, don't get stuck on the thing that you, you love a lot. You know, you have to have a whole suite of things that you candidate things to bring into business or new products or whatever. So, somebody drew that and they drew a puppy with, you know, cute little eyes, and then they can right next to the puppy said. So, anytime somebody says kill your darlings or gun emoji or something like that I can still see that picture. It's an eye worm I guess I can still see that picture on the whiteboard. Stop this project to the puppy dies. Exactly. Yeah. Listen to the acapella one first know that it's not a perfect recording they used a single mic in front of the five people or whatever six people. It's not a perfect recording but it's a perfect performance. So, and I think this group matri also does they'll do song tunes like the Mario Brothers game tune acapella. They do a great job at the foundation. They do they do really crazy stuff they'll do the Nokia ringtone. The movie studio like openings all that kind of stuff they do great sound effects. I wish they did more pop songs but the sound effects are great too. Thank you. Thanks. I kill you had your hand up earlier. I did came down. I know sometimes it does that. Thanks. Although new in zoom is that it will raise my hand for me sometimes. There's a if you can turn that feature on. It's usually seems to have gone off now but anyway, Detect raised hand is a thing you turn on full of surprises so three things first of all Pete I'm delighted that the GM is finally proving worthwhile for you that's really good to hear. Yeah, me too. I'm glad I paid off at least once. Jerry it's a long investment but you know we're done now we can move on. I feel like I feel like Pete's win might serve all of us just in case nobody else had a win so totally. Doug I didn't know Plato said that I love that if, if, if, if our music describes society what does our music say about our society today, incredibly diverse. The first thing that comes to my mind both the society and the music and I love the diverse. Well, so be a Jerry I love the diversity of the music I love that I can kind of wander into any tradition any style any mood. And lately I've been finding lots of refuge in music. You know, turn off the news and just go into a few hours of just music. I found myself truly interesting, just not categorizing not not evaluating judging thinking about it but just sort of dropping into it. It's a kind of meditation without knowing that it was but I found I found myself just empty of everything but the music. And it's been a wonderful experience in general and very welcome right now. And third I will say about my favorite kpop and Pete is his G friend, which turns out to be a girl band of some note, and I have been not not for a while but I used to get deluged on Twitter by either, you know, 12 year old Japanese girls who love me. Or, you know, 13 year old Korean girls to say can I have can I have your handle. Yeah, exactly. I really love to have your hand if you can be G friend complete, you know, and it's been it's been a very funny interchange, but you should make yourself their mascot. Say, hey, I'm willing to be your mascot. I tried I actually tried to contact the group and be their mascot because apparently they have some environmental consciousness and thought it would be a nice play together. I didn't I didn't make it through the handlers. So my boy, my boy humor says that that that that may have been a provocative invitation. It does sound a little odd. We'll be with that. These were young innocence so please. So two things one the thing Pete said earlier about how stress creates good music is totally one of my beliefs and my favorite music era, like I said this on our first music call is from the 70s when American music was really weird. But in South America there was a lot of oppression and dictatorships and so you get new a trova tropicalismo and a couple other movements in Chile and Brazil. Yeah, Chile Argentina Brazil basically create insanely beautiful music that is protest music in different ways. David Byrne did a whole David Byrne is has incredible musical ear and tastes, and he did this whole series on Brazilian music, which was several albums and was just beautiful really love them. And if folks missed it there was a long profile of David Byrne I think on 60 minutes in the last that's quite quite rich and insightful. Exactly. And then second thing sort of an answer to Doug's great question, because I think the stress. I think the stress comment also addresses Doug's question like like the music reflects the times. And so I'm expecting some really good music come out of this era because we're pretty stressed, but in contrast to that, and I think I mentioned it not on the music called but somewhere else, April and I just went to see the arrows tour movie. And I think Taylor Swift is a sign of the times, not merely because she's moving economies which is a thing like a major thing. But also because her music, her music is mostly about heartbreak, usually with with boys and occasionally with industries, like the music industry. And I don't know it's before going to the movie I couldn't recall a single Taylor Swift tune. Like, I was like, she's really popular I know it. I think I've heard a couple of her songs, I couldn't sing one for you right now. I remember the day when the first album I could sing back and forth was Elton John's Captain Fantastic, and the Brown Dirt Cowboy and I could sing every word of every song on that and I knew like when one song would end my brain would start like the melody for the next song that kind of thing you've all been there before. And then post post movie of the tour event. I had some earworms in my head where I found myself during the day like coming a Taylor Swift and I'm like well at last, and I'm not sure that was a good thing. Stuart. Yeah, I know I've mentioned this before. But, you know, my go to is Jackson Brown. When I think about him and his music and his catalog, you know, he wrote some extraordinary existential stuff. When, when he was in his, you know, late teens, early 20s, and his music goes back to the, you know, late 60s. And it was, you know, introspective what's life about and, and what am I doing and the kind of stuff that teenagers and young 20 folks, you know, think about. And I've always fallen him and seen him, you know, every few years whenever I can catch him. And when I was dealing with, with my late wife's illness. I missed one of his albums in 2014 I think. And when I went back and listen to it was just extraordinary social commentary. And, you know, whenever I, whenever I kind of am losing it. I put his music on and it just amazingly just touches my heart. It's so incredibly healing. The musicality of it, but also the lyrics of it. You know, telling me that I'm not alone, that there's this great artist that's really listening. And he had another album a couple of years ago called standing in the breach. And, and, and recently in the last year or two we had an album. I can't remember the name of it. You know, but it's very, very current in terms of what's going on in the world and still, half of his albums have great pop tunes that just, you know, that you just, you know, in a Taylor Swift modality. But they also kind of, you know, say something. And of late, I've got this inclination to travel to go see Billy Joel in his final tours because he can't, you know, Madison Square Garden is impossible you can hardly get tickets, but there's a show of his in Tampa. I think sometime in, in February, and he's performing with Sting and Sting is an extra another extraordinary performer with with amazingly rich vocal tones and lyrics and you know, he's been a Buddhist practitioner and a meditator. And I think a lot of his life and you know, has managed to sustain a 40 year old 40 year marriage I think in his, in the context of his music wrote a great Broadway show that wasn't a was a critical success but not a commercial success about growing up in a seaport. In England. So, yeah, and, and that's, you know, some of the, I'll go along with Pete in terms of doing a little bit of preparation to pay a couple to play a couple of the contemporary Jackson band songs that really speak to the challenges that we're having he talks to, you know, from immigration to the climate to, to ownership rights to I mean, boom boom boom. And the other interesting thing about him is that over the last couple of years, you know, he always had great hair, and obviously it was, it was styled before he went on stage. He stopped doing that. And he just let himself go go kind of shaggy it's still long but maybe let himself go kind of shaggy. And the last concert I saw of his was in Napa couple of years ago, and it was like going to a revival meeting it was like this preacher, you know, trying to wake people up. In, in, in song. And yeah, so I just can't say enough about Mr Brown as a matter of fact I got my Jennifer was never a big fan and I took her to one of her one of his concerts this one in Napa. And, you know, she's playing on her iPhone while the concert is going on. I almost whacked her and just said, there's fucking magic coming off the stage. It deserves 100% of your attention to listen to what he's saying and now, you know, she's become a fan. So you'll appreciate then that I took Jane to a grateful dead New Year show at the Oakland auditorium once. Yeah. And we had, we had, you know, nosebleed seat tickets somehow. And I went down to the Florida dance and she stayed up there studying anatomy flashcards. So, there you go. There you go. Pete, thank you for the long list of hazardous music. I think there should be a whole genre, like caution, beware all you who enter here. So, if we're talking about contemporary music. I think that, you know, the whole genre of rap, and, and, and it where it comes from, you know, certainly deserves mentioned and taking, and taking, taking a look at at its, you know, ideation. Yeah. I, something flashed for me to it's not rap. It's pop, but it's kind of noise pop from UK. There's a, there's a band called bones. And their big hit is about being women and having somebody say it's called pretty waste. Like, they're, they're hot looking women. And they don't want to be hot looking women, they just want to be people. So they, they turned into a song. Somebody's, you know, off end cat calling comment, you know, what a what a waste of a pretty face. You know, on you. So another song that they had I just heard it yesterday. I remember that I really liked it. It's a I'm afraid of Americans. And I was like, yeah, I get that. What's noise pop, the term for me. There's, there's a genre of, and it's not a technical term it's it's the way kind of I classify my head. They use a lot of kind of distortion and it sounds loud. So it's kind of like the to say something that I wouldn't be happy to hear if I were bones UK. It's, it's kind of like the bubblegum pop version of heavy metal. So it's got noise to it but I'm actually a bubblegum pop person that's what I like listening to you best. So, another really good example. It's not quite pop. But there was some music that I was really enchanted by this guy named Boreta. I'll put a link, and it was really amazing to me the first time I heard it I guess I heard it on a on a dance, somebody was doing dance to it. I couldn't parse it as music. It just sounded like noise. And, but noise with a beat and a rhythm and stuff like that. And, and so that was like super enchanting. And I listened to it for a while and then I could finally hear that Oh, it sounded like something that you couldn't make with MIDI. And I was like, how did, how did that, you know, how did he orchestrate that noise and then after a while, my brain deconstructed it and I could hear the melody and you know that the, I could hear that he did it with MIDI but super super cool and noise. Back to Gil's comment about the variety of music available I'm on completely on both sides of that because on the one hand you can reach out and listen to anything on the planet that you want to. A while ago I haven't done this in a while but there's a website or a station that let basically let's you tune into radio live radio from anywhere on the planet. And so you could go listen to Ghanaian, you know, music channel station and see what they're playing and listen to them comment, you know, comment locally and hear the local ads and the whole thing, which is just a lovely way to sort of travel virtually. And then Peter might have been you who said this somewhere recently but music is being produced and homogenized and also as we start to get generative AI produced music. It tends to like there's this blending towards the mean of some sort. And it starts to really sound alike it starts to. We start to lose the variety in some weird way because there's a certain set of hooks and rhythms and whatever else tempi and things that make a song go viral and they're everybody's after audience. Go ahead, Gil. You're muted. Well that's john cage right. There's something fascinating about the, the, I don't know if it's an interplay or just thinking or something there's mashups which is one of the phenomenon of these times such as diversity but mashups I'm thinking of like, I just heard this week and Israeli Arab piece song being done in my lifestyle is terrific and it was like this moment of joy and the grief of now that actually broke was first of my tears broke through in the current Israel Palestine Gaza. There was a mashup of these two very different worlds and somehow that feels different than homogenization. They're both blending of different traditions but they somehow work differently. And I value the mashups and I hate the modernization. I don't know what the differences between. For me mashups were a really creative phase because they, a lot of mashups I saw involved really different things brought together in a way where you're like, damn those things work together. There's a bunch of insight and creativity there and mashups weren't, from my perspective, an attempt to get a lot of audience and hack, hack music tastes in order to win the, the top 40 contests kind of thing. So I like mashups a lot. And I think I mentioned last call that that my day on I think I added it to the chat as a French guy named my day on who uses an Ableton, and says, in the name of the song is these are my 30 favorite songs, and he creates a mashup of these 30 songs that is that is itself a lovely tune, and a really interesting tune in different ways and so you know, more of that is great. Go ahead, Stuart. Yeah, I just, I think that it's really such a subjective experience in terms of how certain, you know, rhythms hit your essential vibration. That's just, you know, so, so important. A noise came up. I can't listen to noise. You know, like acid jazz anything in jazz that goes into the acid quality. I just, I just can't listen it. I find it like nails, you know, scrunching on a blackboard. It depends on my mood. Yeah, that that's that's the things that I can't stand some of the time, but are exactly welcome some of the time. Yeah, yeah. Generally, generally, I think it's extremely poignant that that your phone's ringtone just went off during this call that was great. Yeah, thank you. That's actually that's actually Jennifer calling from Bangkok. So I'll get her back as soon as I finish saying what I want to say. A couple of other things, you know, pop up for me as as as really wonderful favorites. Paul Williams. Short guy had an Academy Award winning song. And he was named Trison I think called Evergreen. And he disappeared for a while and you know, as he became famous. He, you know, got into addiction. And then he disappeared because he became an addiction counselor. I saw this. I can't remember where I saw it be was performing in San Francisco about 1518 years ago, and a very small venue and I bought three of the CDs and she's, he's just got a marvelous tonal quality and, and, and amazing presence to him. And, and then there's, you know, one of the all time favorite Motown pieces, you know, Marvin Gaye's what's going on that some think is one of the greatest song albums ever produced and the whole genre of Motown including, you know, one of my favorites, and I don't know if anybody's ever listened to them, but a couple that just, you know, wrote and recorded and did some amazingly wonderful music I saw them at, at the Nico, just a couple of years before. Ashford died. Beautiful, beautiful individuals. I also love you mentioned what's going on, which is a gorgeous song all by it's lonesome and then people do things I'll paste it into the chat in a second I just have to see that the URL still works, but it's like what's going on performed by performers all around the world. And they're all kind of listening to the tune and recording it themselves and then somebody edited together just very beautifully. And it's really moving. It just moves around the world but it's also very moving. Hey Julian. Readings. Julian, what's your go to music, either genre or song or thing. I don't have a go to one I like everything from the year 1600 to now. It's more, it's more what I don't like. It's a country rap hip hop. And one of the things I've noticed is I tend to prefer symphonic stuff. So, for example, you know, Beethoven like everyone has a favorite of mine, but if you get more modern, they call prog rock like yes. But if you look at yes is music it's actually they're actually a small symphony. When you listen to rap or hip hop, there's nothing but a beat and people speaking words. There's, there's no exercise and creating music there. I mean it technically qualifies as music right by the Oxford dictionary definition, but it's in the answer to what's to go to it's really where they go ways. Well, Rolling Stone made the mistake of missing hip hop entirely and became irrelevant really quickly. I don't know how or why but that's just my knowledge and what I want to I mentioned Ted Joya last last call we had on music. He is a phenomenal prolific music analyst he's incredible. I'll post a link to his sub stack here but I'm on his sub stack. And I just don't know how he does all the things that he does. Pete, go ahead. Pete, can I throw on one other thing? Yeah, please. I think in the past I've mentioned my senior thesis at Berkeley. And when that kid of mine comes up here he's going to photograph the drawings. And I'm going to assemble a PDF of that thesis along with the output and have that available and might be in the University of California archives. Hey, I like Julian's observation of funny. I had a similar way of describing my musical taste when I was entering Caltech. One of the things that what what music you like to listen to was really important because people would end up playing their stereo is really loud with their doors open in the dorm. And so if everybody kind of got along it was good. So I remember describing you know I like any kind of music except country. It's really true or not. But, but anyway, I like that Julian's distinction between symphonic and and maybe pop the, the, the period of time over which you evolve themes. And, you know, and how many different kinds of themes you want to mix together and stuff like that it's a really interesting phenomena. Since me of science fiction. I learned, I started reading science fiction when I was like 10 or 12 or something like that and I just read voraciously. And I learned that I cared a lot more about the ideas of a story than the exposition of a story. And so I got shorter and shorter and so, you know, like a 1500 word story with a lot of interesting ideas was always a lot that moved for me then you know 100,000 word novel, you know with maybe the same number of ideas but spread out over lots of exposition. I also wanted to come back to what Stuart said about the way the rhythm or whatever the, there's, there's, there's definitely music that I listened to that most people wouldn't listen to and vice versa right. And it's, it's, I feel like it's, I don't know how this works but I remember when my daughter used to do dance stuff. You know, we'd go to dance recitals, four or five, six times a year and there's a selection of, you know, cool pop songs or whatever that the kids are dancing to. And there were certain songs where it was like, okay, I for me is like okay stop everything I'm going to close my eyes and I'm just going to focus on. I don't know the melody or the rhythm or whatever about this particular song right, and it always surprised me that everybody else didn't like have to just stop and like listen. You know, obviously it's different for different people but I, it was, you know, there's, I, it's a real thing and it makes it weird to share about music, kind of because you can't say this is the best song ever because you know it's the best one for you and it's not the show the best for other folks. Thanks, Pete. Julian. I made a cryptic comment in the chat window about one four or five, which in music theory is the tonic the subdominant the dominant chords. And what we call pop music is generally this progression. It sounds nice to the air to go from the tonic to through the subdominant up into the dominant it sounds nice. But it's very simplistic. And if you listen to say Lawrence wealth music. This would be the kind of harmonic progression that goes through showing no imagination. And I'm going to bang on rap and hip hop again because they don't even do that they never modulate they just stick with. They pick a tonic and maybe they'll modulate to another tonic later but there's just there's no exploration of music generation. Gil. Yeah, on on that note Julian was incredible stuff on YouTube these days of, you know, not just the world of music but the world of investigating music probing music, unpacking music theory, unpacking the, you know, the, the, the structure the of stuff really fascinating stuff which I never learned in any substantive way. My best music education was Leonard Bernstein's young people concerts which still stand up, by the way. There's one, there's one piece on YouTube that says like you know like best three minutes of music education I ever get and it's not, you know, it's up there as a candidate. But, you know, Rick Bido, analyzing pop music, a bunch of a bunch of pianists who play all sorts of things in the styles of different people and unpack what the musical structure and dynamics are in that so really rich opportunity to both get exposed to music and also get some understanding of what's happening when you listen to things and how different tonal qualities and moods and so forth degenerated. Before going to Pete just add to your Marvel like you can learn to play instruments now just by watching YouTube videos and grabbing an instrument and trying and trying again it's astonishing. So just one thing on that I've been for the last few nights I have been just playing every cover I could find of the name just left me. I still haven't found what I'm looking for you to many versions of them and many versions of other people and some of them very rocking and some of them very quiet and one I just double on last night. I found a soft finger picking guitar instrumental rendering of it that is both very different and very congruent with the original mood of the song. So that's one of my current votes. Pete, I love finding like a song that a bunch of people have done and the different kinds of versions of it and it's surprising sometimes a really sparse one kind of captures the song better than a lot of other other things. I wanted to come back to Julian talking about kinds of music and certainly the, you know, 145 pop thing. A lot of pop music. The, it's interesting the musical exploration is very limited, you know, it does like, you know, a very minute fraction of the things that you think to modulate stuff. There's it. I'm reminded for for a number of years I was super into a subgenre of music coming out of London. That was called drum and bass, and they used almost entirely it was built around one drum, one drum sample, and it goes really fast. And it, I think it tickles my noise thing. But, but I listened to enough of it I was enchanted just by the sound of that sample I think that I listened to enough of it that I started to realize that the modulation in the song, they would have these four or five minute songs that sounded almost the same the whole way through. But what was happening was the modulation was the way that they repeated the sample would change, and it actually evolved over time so it wouldn't be a quick dramatic thing. But over the course of a couple minutes you could hear the evolution of the way that the sample is getting getting repeated. And that was actually the musical content of the whole piece, more or less. The slow evolution of playing with the rhythm and probably a little bit of the tonality and stuff like that. And it got so that I could listen to that. You know, somewhere in between a symphonic sound, some phonic thing and a pop thing. It was this other thing that was modulating a different part of music than is normally modulated and it was a lot of fun to listen to you muted. Thank you. Sorry, beginner's mistake. You're reminding me of Steve Reich's piano phase, which dates back to 1967, where the same exact pieces played by two pianists next to each other in slightly different tempi so that the pieces basically go out of tune, cross and then come back into synchronized. It's just really interesting because you know exactly what's coming next and you have no idea what's coming next. It's, it's, it's like, you get immediately what's happening. And then it's interesting at every little turn because of because of the overlay the overlap. It's really cool. Now you're muted. Yeah. So Jerry, after I made my comment about Plato, you paraphrased it as music tells us about the contemporary moment. That's not what Plato meant. He meant the opposite. That the music tells you about the culture and closer to what we were hearing from Julian, that it's what's missing in the contemporary music that tells you a lot about the culture that you're in. Can you, can you find the right quote so I cannot miss quote when I quote it. And does anybody else have background on this or anybody do you or anybody and when else want to dive deeper into it because, for me, like, I see music often reflecting what culture is doing not what culture is missing. But I think both things are probably happening all the time. I don't have a direct source, but music was really important for the Greeks, who saw that the structure of the universe was music. And therefore that music ought to be the basis for all the education along with dance. And the appreciation. So the music and mathematics went together as a single subject for the Greeks. Back when we were talking about that I found this page on Plato and music which I was going to read later. It's clearly really central and important to his philosophy and not something I knew about. Jump in on this particular slice. Okay then. A couple things. What else what other what other twists and turns. Should we do another call on music or should we switch to visual art with a lot more notice. I apologize that there was such short notice I was just like last night I was enthused that our last music call had been so good so I figured I would put it on the menu. But you're right. It's more fun to have more time to prep on topics like these. And we last time had said why don't we switch to different arts. So one thing we could do is like visual arts or something, or sculpture or like you tell me what you'd like to go into. And then just a note I want to add is it's nice to have a couple calls and GM where we're not talking about global demise and our collective crises and catastrophes it's actually really really nice to be in a more positive space, even though we're well intentioned when we talk about all the crises. So thoughts. Steering steering committee steer. Yes, is my thought. All you just said Jerry. It occurs to me kind of that. I feel like I can talk a little bit more certainly about music having watched a ton of YouTube videos of people talking about music. And similarly I was like, I wonder how you could talk about visual arts but then I realized I've got a lot of kind of technical knowledge at least about image composition and contrast and color and things like that but so in in a space where there's a fair amount of existing kind of thought and thought of an exposition about, you know, about the art form, then, then there's a framework within which we could, you know, work to speak better sculpture for instance on the other hand I, you know, I don't know how to tackle that as well kind of It's interesting because it seems like we could also kind of mash together a recent topic with the visual arts topic which would be like storytelling plus visual arts. That would be an interesting combo to go into, because a lot of people are experimenting with how to do storytelling with funky new media. And there's a lot out there. So, that might be a good, a good path in. Literature. Not so much nonfiction, but literature. Yeah. Yeah. There were. I just started watching this last night, we could do media we could do TV shows. You want to you want to take a temperature reading of the culture. Go look at what's playing on TV. Exactly. Exactly. One of the books I read this year is called chemistry lessons, which is a wonderful novel, completely entertaining novel and it's now a series on Apple TV that I watched a few episodes of yesterday. Is it lessons in chemistry. Yeah lessons in chemistry. Bonnie Garmas. Yeah, that's that. That's it. It's about a woman who aspires to be a chemist and she's and and she ends up doing a cooking show. Oh yeah, that's right. It was a very entertaining read and and they made a good TV show. It's just coming out now I saw the trailer. And then he just put understanding comics in the chat one of my favorite books about like, not just understanding comics which is the self evident title, but about how our perceptual systems work. How we frame things, the magic of the artistry of things. And how it is, I've met him I met him at a conference once years ago, really interesting guy too. That's really like, so analysis of arts effects on us might be a slice. So going a little meta on the whole thing. Yeah, and the thought that I just had in response to that Jerry was that the idea that, you know, each of us, because we're different is different art forms for whatever reason. And a little bit of explication of, you know, why you're attracted that art form and what in it is, is a value to you and might be a value to others, you know, I mean I know there's a lot of art forms, you know that I just kind of poo poo a little bit. I don't take the time to dig in but if somebody else inspired me, I might try it out. Go ahead Pete. I had a gift from Michael in it on a, on a one on one call I had with him, where I was, I had just finished watching probably. And I was like, I'm actually singing dynamite. I was all excited and alive about the, you know, the artistry of that and the, the harmony that this group had. And, and so I got excited about that and explain more about, you know, we went to different, our compelling groups and different live performances and stuff like that. And I'm always self conscious about that because I know, as previously we talked about, not all the same music is the same interest to other people or like Stuart you were just saying you know different things are interesting to different people. The gift that I got from him was like, Pete, it turns out that, you know, maybe the thing that you're, you're excited about is not the same thing I'm excited about, but I loved seeing the passion that you had and the excitement that you had and, and hearing the story of it. Now I can look at, at the things, some of the things you showed me, and there, there are just details I never would have known about, you know, you told me a whole story about, you know, the details in the background of it because you knew about it and because you were passionate about it. So, it reminded me that sometimes having, you know, even if you're not interested in it having a guide who's super passionate about it helps you appreciate something that you wouldn't have before and it helps you like learn about a lot of stuff that you just completely missed it. And maybe you might even get excited about something because there's part of it that you were missing, because you'd never had an introduction to it that, you know, once you've, you've had an introduction. It's like, Oh, I get it. Let me look for more of that. It's lovely. Our, our, I love the word amateur, which is about love, you know, amade, and also dilettante is a word that's been like really deprecated because to be a dilettante is not good but that comes from delight that comes from the Italian delight, because it's somebody who delights in a lot of things. And our sharing of our love for things is I think fascinating and, and our wonderful way to go into things. Thanks for that explication of dilettante. I love it. And appreciate it. Not a bad word. Good word. No, no. Good word. Doug is an ace on etymologies, especially when it comes to capitalism and related phenomena. They're also like, we're all from Western tradition. And in Bali, they have. Now I'm even forgetting what it's called. What are the performances in Bali called. How can I have forgotten it so quickly. Please hold. Pardon. The orchestra, the orchestra. Yes, exactly. But what's the name of the orchestras. Gamalon, that's it. You said it, but you said it, but I didn't hear it properly. Yeah, Gamalon music and, and also, if you go watch Kabuki theater or whatever the kind of Asian music and scales that they're using and the way the performances work is dramatically different from what is pleasing to the Western year and really interesting and then the blend of the two is often really fun. And interesting and there's a couple artists like David Byrne and others who've kind of gone and traveled widely. Paul Simon, I think is one who's done a good job of that too. There are a bunch of people who went lots of different places. It's weird though when when Paul Simon started doing that people jumped on him for quote appropriation. Like, you know, how can you dare do this you're stealing music from other people. But music has always been mashing up and moving around and adapting and modifying itself staying in this. I think it's in this wonderful film called bring on the night which I encourage people to see if you have it Michael apted. Movization of the of Sting's entry into jazz mashup. And someone accused him of his stuff sounding like other people stuff and he said, he said the genius borrows nobly. And it wasn't meant to I don't think it was meant as a self inflating comment but to say that that's what that's what artists do. You're influenced by each other. And, you know, we all we're all influenced by our lives and incorporate our experiences and manifest them in the ways that we do. That's a good point you'll because you think about it when you study art they can they talk so much about how this one artist traveled from Madrid to Paris and saw this other artist painting and decided to do something about it. And in classical art study this is considered the proper thing. So, it's called, it's called being influenced. Yeah, each other and by life and experience so yeah. Yeah, and it should be, it shouldn't be limited to painting right as you point out is this music does this. If we dug around would probably even see it in software development, which is I would point out an art according to Donald Knuth. In some interesting way Knuth's epical, nearly biblical tones from his first from his, what was he in grad school when he wrote them like incredibly young were him offering his shoulders up to everybody else like hey here's a whole bunch of like fundamental algorithms and ways of seeing programming. And then, and then the libraries and the places we've come to in programming I would be really interested in just hearing a couple people who run deep in this like Pete. And Julian, basically to describe the different areas of computing that even they've experienced in their lives because what was possible or what we were doing five and 10 years ago has changed dramatically from today and never mind 30 years ago. Right. I mean I got my first computer was an apple to plus I'm not a programmer, but I was learning how to like fall through the monitor mode and wander around in the memory of the computer. And you've got to do special things now to do that to fall through the, the figment that's on screen and see how the thing works. That'd be fun. Thanks, my DPD. I was having a conversation just yesterday where we were, I was complaining about how books lock away knowledge. And came up with a variant on standing on the shoulders of giants it's like the giants are being kidnapped and sort of locked away and I said it more elegantly yesterday I'm trying to find that because I thought I took notes about it but anyway. I feel like we've talked through where we are right now on this we could wrap the call early or we could go someplace that you'd rather go. I'm open to either be happy to wrap. Do you want to start rapping. Haha. It just was a topical pun I couldn't resist it was like you gave me a layup I took it. That that was my rapture. I'm done. You're done. That was the shortest strap I've ever heard. Do you know about the comic strip pearls before swine. I think so. I've heard of it. But you know that every third days is some really magnificent pun. Go find it. Well, cool. Why don't we wrap this call and see you all in a week. Safe travels, safe healing. Thanks for being on the call from Malaysia Doug. Enjoy your music. Yeah. Bye everyone.