 We're going to start the day with a very, very important topic and a very, very special guest. Today, we're going to start looking at the topic of Taiwan's campaign to end the death penalty. A really important topic that for some reason we haven't really covered in the past. And it's a topic that I think is quite interesting because it challenges our stereotype of Taiwan being a super free and liberal democracy. Particularly when we think about things such as legalization of same sex marriage. But the trends that we see on the death penalty look quite different. And from a European perspective, I think it's much harder for us to understand that difference. And that's why I'm really delighted that today we've got a key figure in this movement to end the death penalty. Who's come to speak to us. So our speaker today is Lin Xin Yi, who's currently working for the Taiwan Alliance to end the death penalty. This organization was founded in 2003 and Xin Yi has been involved right from the start. First as a board member and since 2007 as the executive director. But Xin Yi's work isn't just limited to this campaign. If you kind of follow her on Facebook, you'll see that she's extremely active in a range of social justice causes. Such as human rights for Tibet is another one of her core campaigns. So like a lot of social activists, she is trying to promote human rights with a range of campaigns. So today I'm going to start off with a few questions and then we'll open up the chat to the audience to join. You can type your questions in the chat box. If you can type in in both English and Chinese, that will make things a little easier, but try to make the questions fairly short. And that way we can get through as many questions as possible because we only have through until 1050. But for now, could we kind of give Xin Yi a very, very big welcome to so as. Okay, so she let me let me just start with a first kind of personal question that I wanted to ask. And that's about how did you first get involved in this campaign because as we know it's a very difficult campaign. So could you tell us about your personal story? Yeah, it's my pleasure. Hi everyone. I'm sorry I don't speak good English so I feel a little bit nervous now. And yes, a lot of foreign friends feel surprised that Taiwan still have the death penalty. I'm also surprised too. And I feel Taiwan is a beautiful country and we have a lot of beautiful things, but the death penalty is not one of this. And how I become involved of the campaign. My background is sociology. So when I graduate from college, I find a job in another NGO for I think one year. And then after that I find a job I found a job in judicial reform foundation. That is that is 1999. And when I first joined judicial reform foundation, my colleague told me that there is a case. The case is Xi Zhi Chu You Su Jian He San Ren. Three young people they are they are innocent. And but they are sentenced to death. So that time I was very young and also they are only you know few years older than me. So when I first visit them in detention center they are still they are also very young. I feel so surprised that how come they are in detention center and they can be executed anytime that time. So this is my first experience and then in 2000 Taiwan have the first time is the political power transfer. So the DPP become the ruling party. And that time we heard we heard from the president Chen Shui Bian said he said that Taiwan is going to abolish the death penalty gradually. So we are very exciting. And that time the Minister of Justice Chen Ding Nan he also announced that Taiwan is go Taiwan will abolish the death penalty in three years. But everyone knows that this is not happened. And that that year there is another case. The name is Lu Chen. He came to judicial reform foundation X for help because and then we researched this case we found out that this is an innocent case. So judicial reform foundation with we want to help him that time. But I remember in September 7. I remember that they very clearly because the government executed Lu Chen. So we are surprised that we announced Taiwan is going to abolish the death penalty and in three years and we found out that this is an innocent case. And we submit this case to control Yuan and control Yuan is also willing to take care of this case. But a minister of justice who say that he want to abolish the death penalty he kill this this person. And it's only the second day I know this news because that time right now you know every time when we have the execution the media knows first then us then lawyer then family. But that time in 2000. We only know until the second day. I think I feel very bad because that time I was an editor of the magazine of judicial reform foundation. So I have idea that we need to interview their family or I should try to interview himself if I can and then write down the story then that everyone knows his story. But then he was killed. So that's the first time I really understand what is the death penalty. If he was killed he will never go back no matter how hard we try. So I think that's the time that I commit myself that I don't want to just be just talk about the death penalty talk about how to abolish death penalty. I want to be active to try to abolish the death penalty in Taiwan. And until now this case still her family and NGOs in Taiwan will still try to help and try to still want to help to clean his name until now. But it's really difficult. So that's the that's how I involved in the in the campaign of the death penalty. And so the organization of Taiwan Alliance to end the death penalty was created in 2003. Yes, that's almost 20 years now. Could you tell us a little bit about this NGO and maybe how it's changed over the last almost 20 years. OK, I think in in year 2000 I think the most important organization is Judicial Reform Foundation Taiwan Association for Human Rights and also Taipei Bar Association. There are the NGOs that who help the death row inmates and and after 2000. You know on one hand we are happy that Taiwan fine government finally announced that we have the attitude to abolish death penalty. Still we see people people are killed. And also that time we have several case in our hands. For example, the Xu Zhiqiang's case Xu Zhiqiang he he he he is an innocent case too. And also several other case and that time the she's a trio I mentioned I mentioned they they have the chance to reach to have the retrial so we don't have to worry about them. But Xu Zhiqiang's case is the is in dangerous in every time. So that time in 2003 the NGO I mentioned Judicial Reform Foundation Taiwan Association for Human Rights Taipei Bar Association and other NGOs. We decide that we need to have a organization that focus on abolish the death penalty. Not only to save the death row inmates that were innocent. We need to change this system. And at that time we say that we need to abolish the death penalty. Before we abolish the death penalty we need to have a moratorium in Taiwan. And then we start from Xu Zhiqiang's case. So that's how we start. But that time is this organization is only a volunteer in our platform. So low years professors, students, NGO workers we are we are all volunteers. But we are very commit ourselves to do a lot of work. So we have a film festival that time and a lot of campaign that that time. But in that time we don't really understand how many death row inmates and we don't know their name. We have no idea. And then gradually we understand who they are how many numbers. And in 2006. In 2006 there is a case. How to say. I mentioned that the execution in Taiwan is not announced before the executed. So no one will know. But that time a journalist knows that a minister of justice signed an execution order. So he came to us and asked for the more information he want to cover a very good story. And then is a Sunday Sunday night I remember it and he called before me and asked the case. And I say so you mean that there is an execution going to happen but still not carry out. So it means that we can try to save him. So I immediately call a prosecutor that work for minister of justice. It's the one I know so I just call him I say that it's unfair because we try to help this case. And we try to get his file but you don't want us to have his file. And then suddenly you say the minister of justice signed execution order. So we we want to meet minister of justice in the second day in the Monday. And then when he signed the execution order minister of justice he had his holiday. So we went to minister of justice to see the deputy minister. And we argue with him. It's a long story but it's a legal argument we argue with him. And finally he say OK we can read the file and we can we can we can resend the execution actually ordinary appear. So the execution not happened. And it's the December is the December 2006. And then that time a lot of international pressure and also the pressure from the embassy in Taiwan. No to the government. So in the end of that year 2006 there is no execution happened. And since from that there is no execution since 2006 to 2009. We have four years moratorium. OK and after that I decide that or a TDP Taiwan Alliance to end the death penalty. We decide that we really need to have a full time staff to concentrate on the job. So I volunteer say OK I want I would like to do this so I become the first full time staff. And that time is also there is also opportunity that we talk to the judicial Yuan. And that time because they have Taiwan have a legal aid foundation system. Their funding is major by judicial Yuan. And we discussed with the president we say that you need to see the death row inmates death penalty cases as a human rights issue. So you need to help us and we need to give them lawyer to very good help for them. And they say yes. So I think since from that time we gradually we wrote later at beginning we just read the news that to see who sentenced death. And also we try to find information from judicial Yuan. Finally we know that how many death row inmates in in where and we try to contact them. And we say that the lawyer from legal aid foundation can help you to ask for a retrial as for external ordinary appear or a constitutional review and all this. So then we know understand the case. But but that time we only do the case we only have the case that who are already confirmed the death sentence. And then gradually in 2012 I think maybe before 2012 but gradually that we do the case we have the case with the ongoing case. I mean every time when a serious crime happened and we will contact them through legal aid foundation. And then we will try to have a lawyer team for them and try to defense for them. So so that's how change in the beginning we can only do lobby do campaign and do the education. And then right now I think half half time of our job is to help the case. And we try to have we hope that they can have a very good lawyers do to defense for them on the court. And the result is the result is the death sentence is less and less. And also during this time and I think another very important thing happened is that in 2009. Taiwan ratified the ICCPR and ICSCR and use the it becomes the domestic law. We we implementation this to covenants and that also help us that we have more weapon on the coast use the international standard to defense for them. And then so we also try hard to do the lawyers training judges training prosecutors training that we hope that the international human rights standard can be really be our standard. So I think we a little bit change and now we have more staff and we do more more job and cooperate with NGOs in Taiwan or in other countries. So as one of the things you mentioned was you were quite optimistic when GDP comes to power in 2000 and they say OK we're going to end the penalty in in three years. But they changed their mind. Why do you feel that that happened. They had a very clear statement. Was it public opinion. It's coming a little on that. Yeah. I think 2000. Yeah. 2000 they say they say Taiwan going to abolish a death penalty. And actually they do. They do have some proposal. I mean they do have some ideas. But all they say is because I see I see CPR article six. They didn't say that Taiwan should immediately abolish a death penalty. So they say we will gradually do that. OK. And that's how we can accept that. But you need to have idea how to gradually abolish the death penalty. OK. So in 2005 they they have a proposal of that but still not very powerful. And they always say that OK. If Taiwan want to abolish the death penalty then you have to have the alternative of the death penalty. And who should who should have the who should present the alternative. They always think that Taiwan Alliance to end the death penalty should do this. Let me explain because in Chinese we call. It means that we need to find some alternative to replace the death penalty. That's the Chinese name. So they say it's our duty. So in 2006 we decided that no we want to change our name. We change our name to Taiwan. Although the English name is always the same Taiwan Alliance to end the death penalty. But the Chinese name a little bit changed. And so we want to send a very clear message that. Yeah, the goal is to abolish the death penalty. And the 2002 2008 is the ruling party is the DPP. So you can say that who start the moratorium DPP start moratorium because it seems 2006. And but it's it's very strange that 2008 when a. Goumin down mind you. He become the past president in 2008 and 2009. In his in his his president presidency he signed the ICPR. That's great right because we have moratorium and if we continue the moratorium. And ICPR said that you cannot delay the the process of abolish the death penalty. So we think that we have moratorium. So when we sign the ICPR we need to continue the moratorium. That's that's everyone think about that. But in 2010 the death penalty come back to Taiwan execution came back. Only because of the political there is a legislators he. He questioned this question this issue in the in. Legislative Yuan and I have to say at the beginning I feel that OK. My angel did more good job than Chen Shui-bian because in 2009. He signed the ICPR also his minister of justice Wang Qingfeng. He she sorry she very clearly. Announced that she is anti death penalty person. And she said that she will have a test force under the ministry of justice. And to think about how to abolish the death penalty. So that's great right but in 2010. When this issue present to the in front of the legislative Yuan. Then my angel immediately you know just you know. I don't know he just didn't support that and he asked. The minister of justice to resign. And then he appoint a new minister of justice. I think the only I think the only. Require for this position is he is willing to. Sign the execution order in 2010. And I think I every time when we think about 2010. Is a very difficult year for the Taiwan Alliance to enter death penalty. Because that time the new minister of justice. We say that he won he he is willing to sign 44 execution. Olders it means he want to kill all this. And then when he first sign for execution order. Then. A lot of a lot of pressure from EU. From other embassy from international organization from Taiwan. So he only he's only sign for execution then he stopped. But after that every every year he. Sighted he signed few execution order and what they say. They always say I need to sign the execution order. Because of the public opinion. Yeah but I think I can explain more details about. What is the public opinion because I think. To abolish the death penalty is our duty. Since ICC PR become the domestic law. But yes you need to think about the public opinion. So I think I in 2013 to 2014. We decide actually at the beginning we. Oh OK another story is that time. Although Wang Qingfeng who who who who. Who have a task force for the abolish the death penalty. And then his resign then the execution happened. And we we it's very difficult for us. But in the end we decide to stay. Because he he invite me and invite some NGOs. To become the member committee members. And we think that's the first first time. And this is a very important chance. So we need to stay in that in that. Group in that task force yeah. And so at the beginning we say that OK. This is what the task force can do. We can do some research and to support our idea. So don't talk about it. Don't argue about how should we abolish the death penalty. We need to do some research. And they say they don't have money. They don't want to do it. So in 2013 to 2014. We are very lucky we got funding from EU. And so we cooperate with the academic. And they conduct a survey. And this survey is very important. Because they interview 2000 adult in Taiwan. And really ask a lot of questions. 100 questions is a very long survey. And I think the result is very clear. The I can explain the result. The result is in a simple way is that. If you have if people have more ideas. About the death penalty about the judicial system. About the human rights then they will support. Abolish death penalty more. And if the government present the alternative. Of the death penalty. Then they will choose the alternative. Not the death penalty. But normally when the government. They say let me mention about the public public opinion. It always a very quick. Phone call interview and ask you do you support the death penalty. And of course everyone say yes I support the death penalty. And always and this kind of question. Interview always after some very big crime. So of course everyone will angry and they will answer. Yes death penalty is neat. But this survey no. And so the we ask if. If there is if the alternative. If the alternative is life sentence without parole. And the prisoner need to walk in prison. And the money he gets need to pay. Some part of the money to the victims. And you can find that 71% of people. Say OK this is good option. And if we ask people. Life sentence but after 25 years. They can ask for parole. And this option. I think 45 45% agree and not agree. So it's it's it's similar. And and life sentence. With 25 years can. Can ask for parole is the current. Punishment you know. The after the death penalty is the harsh. The. The most. The. Yes yeah in Taiwan so you can see that. You can educate people and the government. The their responsibility is to present. The alternative so we try to talk to the government. Don't say people don't say the public. Public opinion they want the death penalty. No if they tell you give them. You give them the choice and you educated. Them they can change but they never do that. They just say when when they meet. The people from international human rights. Community they will say OK. Taiwan is going to abolish the death penalty OK. And when they meet the people or legislators. To question them they say OK we need to. We will sign execution order but they don't. Want to do anything more to. To educate it to talk to the people. So I think this is the. I always feel. Feel very sad about that and. But you can see that every time when the. When we have the present election. Over when we have the. Legislator election. This issue will become an issue. OK and so I think. All the candidates they don't want to lose any vote. Even one vote they don't want to lose it. So they will they will not you know they will not. Be very brave to say OK I suppose. Anti death penalty but I want to. I want to give you some example for the. For the recent election. Some although. The death penalty is not the main issue. But a lot of people raise this this issue. And some lawmakers we know. That we know and all the media knows that. They support anti death penalty although they didn't campaign. This is not their main campaign for the election. But everyone know their attitude. And they will they won the election. But some lawmakers they say OK I suppose. The death penalty we need to have more death penalty. They didn't want the election so you can see that. The Taiwan needs they have. They want what they want maybe the. The security of nation the relationship. With China the economic is the more. Important thing for us when we choose the. When we vote. Of course the death penalty is a very hard issue. But it's not the issue that will. Change you know the main. Issue that change their. Vote yeah I feel that our. Low makers they are they are not brave enough. Although I know some of them they support the death. Support anti death penalty yeah. So a lot of the problem then is political. Pression not really public opinion. Yes I think they inmate they inmate by. Themself that's OK this is very. Best thing to talk or basic to support. And they don't want to really understand the public opinion. I think TADP although we are a very small NGO. But we try to do the public. Dialogue a lot we did. A lot of this kind of public public dialogue. So after the the. 2000 2013 survey. In in 2017 19. We did another job. We did a consensus consensus. Conference. In every city in Taiwan. So. We we invite people to. To attend the conference and we discuss. With them about the death penalty and. And the idea is we invite people. No matter you support the death penalty or not. But if you are willing to discuss the alternative. Of the death penalty you are welcome to discuss with us. So you can see that people who support the death penalty. But they're still willing to discuss about alternative. And when they came to our meeting. We present only. Fats of the death penalty Taiwan's fast international. Fast and present to them. And then we discussed and. I think the result is also very good that. Because when they are submit to join the meeting. We will ask them to support death penalty. And if we don't have the death penalty. What is the alternative death penalty you you prefer. We will ask them to answer this question. Before they joined the meeting. But when we end the discussion you can see that. People who support the life sentence. Without parole maybe they say OK. Life sentence parole with parole is OK. Or we can have 30 years 20 years. Sentence is also OK. And people who suppose life sentence without parole. I mean they think that OK. We don't have to have very harsh. Punishment and also I think. When you discuss with people they will have more ideas. They say OK the death penalty. How should we abolish the death penalty is not a real issue. The real issue is the prison reform. The real issue is the security. The safety of the society. The real issue is the victims issue. And they also give us a lot of ideas. So what we want to. Show to show our government is. You have the power you have the resource. If you really want to discuss with the people talk to people. Then you have you will have a lot of. Information and when you gather this kind of information. Then you need to put present your own. Alternative and use this alternative to. Discuss with people again and again. Then people will change their mind and this is what. You should do so but. But only NGOs that we did a lot. You know very difficult job yeah. So a few times today you've you've talked about the. The role of international pressure particularly from. The EU or European countries. Does this. Does the Taiwan government pay much attention to that pressure. And also I was thinking about Taiwan's. International reputation or soft power. We saw what happened with for example. Same sex marriage and how that improved. Taiwan's international. Image does that kind of argument. Do you also use that argument with the government. Yeah I think in two in. 2006 when the case I mentioned. That he didn't execute it in the end. And that time the EU embers. That some some. I remember his job Germany. Office in Taiwan and then fighter they fight us. And we discuss about that. And then want to have more information and they say. They will talk. Talk to the government. Okay and then in 2010. When the execution happened the EU they have. The press release that is very important. I don't know how I heard. My voice. Do you have an echo yes. But right now no OK right now it's OK OK. Yeah so in in 2000 in 2010. When the minister of justice Zhen Yongfu say he want to sign. 44 execution order. I think he really mean it. And if there is no pressure from EU. Or from other countries I think we will. Because all of this raw inmates including some innocent one. So I think it's very big power because that's the first time that. Our government they understand that wow when we. When we execute people you know it's not human rights. And. The friends of ours they will feel angry because. We didn't share the same you know the same. Human rights standards so I think that is very important. But some people will say. Is it not help because every year he still sign. Few execution sign. Executed people but I will say. If the execution happened. And the EU the international NGO didn't say anything. About that then the government will say OK no one care. Then we can kill more. So. I think I really hope that things will. Be that easy that international pressure then. Taiwan abolished this penalty but it not happen. But still the international pressure is very important. Also I think. In the past years we also. Co-operate with. EU office French UK. And the Germany office we invited. Judges and prosecutors to Taiwan to have. To exchange. Their experience with Taiwan's. A judge's prosecutor and lawyers and also NGO. And also we co-operate with NGOs like. Amnesty International. International Federation for Human Rights. Work creation against the death penalty. And also the death penalty project in UK. And the rest practice also best in UK. So we help each other to do. Some training and to exchange our strategy. To abolish the death penalty and I think this kind of support. Is really very important for us. Fantastic I think maybe. I still have more questions but maybe we should open up to the. Audience to ask some some questions. Let me see what we have in the chat. So. Bonnie. Has some questions so thank you for the informative talk. Keeping the questions brief. So question one the body is asking is our executions in Taiwan done. With a score of three. And a bullet in the heart. And the second one is one of the key international human rights. Covenants has an optional protocol. On the abolition of the death penalty. Was there any talk of Taiwan. When it took the ICC PR. In its domestic law to also accept this. Protocol. Okay other questions okay yeah yeah yeah. I think how. The how to ask you to people I think. In Taiwan only one executioner. Hold gun and. The desert inmates he need to lie down. On the ground face to the ground. And the executioner. Well you know shoot from his heart. Big heart. And if one bullet okay then one bullet and then if not. Is still alive then the second bullet. So I this this have another. Issue is the executioner they will have trauma. Because they know that I'm the only one response for these days. For this execution so. That's the year we have a. We how to say we amend a law. And. We try to have more how to say. It's also it's also very. Ridiculous but it's a. It's a meeting to discuss how to kill people. In human way. And it's very difficult when we join the meeting. Because we don't. Yeah we need to say that. How to ask you to people and don't. Don't ask you people in a very. In human way but of course we know that there is no human way to. To ask you to people but that time we ask. Please give them the chance to meet their family. At least and if they have a religion before. The execution that them can meet the. They are religion people and also we. Rest the question about executioners. Their their trauma and they promise that they. Will find someone psychologist to help them if they have. Problem but I don't think this is the way to solve this question. The only way to solve this question is to end the death penalty. So yeah and. I think a lot of people feel surprised because in other countries. They will have three executioner or five executioner to do the execution. But in Taiwan only one one one one one people. And for the second second optional. Particle no we didn't we didn't sign it so yeah. And I think it's a go but not. Not right now we can achieve that. So so others feel free to add your questions and in the chat. Or even raise your hands but I just wanted to. Ask a different question that I hadn't really thought about before. And that's about gender and the death penalty. On the one hand. Other female prisoners on death row and do. Does public opinion have a any different view on. Female prisoners and the other one is about public opinion. So is there any difference between male and female. Public opinion on the death penalty. Or is that is it the same for male and female. Surveys on this question. Right now we have 38. Death row inmates and one female. So seven or 37 are men and one are female. And but of course you know when. Female is always commits less crime than men. So I think this percentage is insurmountable. So only one right now. But for the public opinion survey we didn't. We didn't analyze this. This factor but I think it's a question. It's a very good thing to consider because. People ask me young people by age. Young people and elder people was their different opinion. And also I think you raise the question. Men and female I think we can continue to. Analyze this to see what's the result. Yeah. But you mentioned generation. About younger and older people again. If we think about the same sex marriage. Such a big difference between younger and older. Citizens in Taiwan. In terms of their attitudes. I was curious about. Is the trend the right direction. In other words are younger people much more kind of open minded. On this issue compared to their parents and their grandparents. Of course I don't have a numbers of that. But I have a feeling of that. Because when we have. When we have a lot of events. You can see young people or more young people to join. But of course you can say that always young people to join this event. And we always have a volunteers. Or in terms to discuss with us that. They feel very warm in TADP because. When they are home when they discuss with. Family about the human rights issue about the death penalty issue. About the same sex marriage issues. It's very difficult for them to. Talk with their family so I have a feeling. Yes and. Also I think. There's more. Human rights education in Taiwan. Compared to the past. So I think. I think for me the answer is positive. Yeah. We have another question. Zirinka has asked two questions. One of them is we talked a little bit about is about. Why political parties change. So quickly. And that also might allow us to talk a little bit about. The current Taingwan. Administration and is it different from the. The second part of Zirinka's question is about. Education that she says I believe. The education of the very young. Ages crucial. What's being done about educating. Children. About. This. And again I think. When we think about. Gender issues. There's a lot of arguments in Taiwan. About. LGBT education. In the schools. Would this be a problem for your campaign. For example. Can you go into schools and talk about. Your. Your campaign. Or that be a problem with parents. Some conservative parents. Protect. Two things. Yeah. I think. If compared to DPP or KMT. I think DPP is. Is much better than KMT. For a lot of issue and for the. Desperate issue is also. But I don't think. She really understand the. Desperate issue. And although her background is low. But not human rights. So. Some professor some lawyer said OK. She didn't understand. What is the death penalty and. What is that mean. And I think the worst thing. Of her decision is he. The. Her sorry her government. Have the. I think the worst. Minister of Justice. Tsai Ching Xiang. But a lot of people defense for her. Because they say that. The DPP they. Although they. Become the ruling party for. Right now for four terms. But still the judicial system. Is still not. How to say it's not. Because you we used to say that. The. They own the code. They own the code. They own the code. They own the judicial system. So. A lot of people see that. There's no their person in. In judicial. But I don't buy it because. Of course the judicial should be. You know. Neutral. Not. Not by party. But still. I don't think that. So I think. Tsai Ching Xiang. He is the one that. He didn't. Didn't really care about that. And every time when we. I just give you give you an example. When they meet the international. Aspers. When they visit to Taiwan. And they ask how. What the government do. To about your death penalty. And their answer is. We don't have much resource. And if we raise this issue. The public opinion will say. You are wrong. So we cannot do. A lot of things. But we have Taiwan alliance. To end the death penalty. They did a lot of things. And then they. They say OK. Can you explain what you do. You know how come a government. In front of the. International experts to say. That we didn't do. We didn't do anything. But NGO. Do a lot of things. And they didn't feel shame about that. And also I feel sorry. I feel. Very sorry and also angry is. Although you don't. Want to abolish the death penalty. You afraid the public opinion. That's fine. But there are some innocent. Cases. Like Chou Heshun. Like Wang Xinfu. It's very clear that. They are innocent. One and Chou Heshun. And Chou Heshun. He is in detention center. For more than 32 years. And. We asked the person to. To have the. Pardon to am not seeing him. But we didn't get any. Response from her. And we asked. The minister of justice. Because they have means to do. Something for him. They can investigate. Investigate this case. But they didn't do anything. Right now. We're just trying to. Do more campaign. But. I think every time when present he. She want to make decision. If you want he have to. You want to pardon someone. She will ask. The opinion from. From minister of justice. And of course the answer is not. Not what we want. And they didn't really. Reconsider this case. And present the evidence to. To them. So. I feel. I feel very sad and very. Sorry for this. Although I have to say some other. Some other human rights issue. Maybe not so bad. But for the death penalty. The other part of the question was. About the education about. Yeah. Can you go into schools. And. And how does the education. Curriculum. Deal with this issue. Does it follow public opinion. Or. Is it very conservative. I think we have. I think we have more young. Teachers in school. So that's our opportunity. And we do cooperate with. Teachers in elementary. High school and the university. Teachers to to have the. How to say that word. Correct. Yes. This is a word that I cannot pronounce. Every time. Okay. So we. We do cooperate with them. To. To. To have some teaching materials. Prepare for some teaching materials. For them. And I think it's good that. A lot of teachers they are willing to. Do that in their. Class or invite us to have speech in school. So it's not a problem. But sometimes yes you can see that some parents or some. Principles of school they say OK this is not good. But still. If teacher they want to do that they cannot stop them. But this is not. This is not how to say this is private. Teaching materials and we contact with teachers. But not for not from the education department. But still I think. Recently more teachers and education department minister. Ministry education ministry they also have. Human rights education group. So they also think about the human rights issue. So I feel it is much better than before. But not enough. And. Be you are you able to come in on this one. I just sort of. Respond to Susan saying you know no matter what. Who can make decision for someone's. Life and death. How can you know 100 people have 120 people. Know what is. So. I'm not sure that. Well. Verified or justified the. The penalty. Kind of one question. So the decision about. Whether it's a life sentence or the death penalty in Taiwan. That's essentially made by it by three judges. And would you prefer to see a move for example to a. A jury system. Is that something that your kind of campaign. Has proposed. Yeah I think this is our another our challenge. In 2023 because that time we will have. A system called the citizen judge. So the first trial we will have three professional. Judge and six citizen judge. And to send to sentence a case. And. We don't know it's good or bad it's good or bad things. Because for the low years challenge they need to say. Because right now when they defense for a case they always. Say something that people don't understand in a very low. The lowest language and right now they need to explain. To the citizens to understand so that's another. Challenge and also. We feel that if these judges they understand. More the case and also understand. More the background of these people maybe. And then have to do the decision make. The decision to kill people. I think it's more difficult. So we are right right now we have some. Some child and most child. Right now but in 2023. It will become the real. The system that we will implement so. We don't know the we don't know how to. Think about it yet but right now we want to. Gather more information from different country and also. We are planning to do more low years training. Right now and but but for your information. For the recent year every year we have. One death sentence or zero death sentence. And the execution is also after 2016. So I think that that's our strategy. Or work that we really. We really change low years and have. Best practice in the court and then. We have few death sentence and we hope we have. Feel death sentence. Okay so I had a kind of a when you look back on your. Last 20 years in the field. Do you feel you have one? Particular success that you're most proud about. You know. I always feel that I did something. Value. Of course there is no success until we. Abolish the death penalty. But I feel but I still I. In some moment I feel very happy. I feel very happy is that I so I. I saw the season trio the three young innocent. People they are released from court. And I so she just young he was released. From detention center and also. And also Xie Zhihong they are. All the innocent case that in Taiwan. And improve that they are innocent. And I was there every time and. I was part of the campaign and I saw. That they came back to their. Family their own life and right now. They like their life is really good. I think I feel happy but. I will not say it's a success because. Still is a lot of challenge for them. Because they are in detention center for so long. And they have a lot of trauma and some. Some people will have the mental issue. And it's very difficult to go back to society. Because still some people think OK. Although you although. They say you are innocent but maybe. It's just don't have enough evidence. So it's really difficult. For them so. Yeah and. I feel sometimes I some. Some friends they say that. What my job or our colleagues job. We did a very sad job because. Almost every year we will we will have execution. And. And some of them we. Even we believe that they are innocent. But we don't we don't have a way to help them. And when you. I I I met almost 100. You know that's all it means in my whole life. Until now and when everyone. Describe them as a as a monster. And very bad person. Yes they commit very bad crime. But when you have chance to meet them. You will see that they are human being too. And a lot of them they stay in detention center. For more than 10 years 15 years 20 years. I I feel that they are already changed. If Taiwan don't have the death penalty. If Taiwan have life sentence over 20 years. Maybe they are. They are already they can release from prison. And we can see that they already changed. I feel that how come our society. Our society. Why we just give them a chance and. I think we should have our confidence to us. That. If we can do and not if we. Have to do a good prison reform. And we we need to help them. Everyone who are. No matter what reason they are in prison. When they release from prison. We need to help them to go back to society. Because they are our they are in our society. I think we can do that. I think Taiwan can do that. So still is a long way to go. But I'm happy still have. I'm also happy that more and more people. Concerned about the prison reform issue. And more and more people concerned about the victims. Protect victims issue also. So. Although it's very difficult but I still have hope. I have a question here from one of our former students. And she asks thanks for so much for such an insightful talk. The victims and their families tend to be. More supportive of the death penalty. And if so what strategies can be taken. To persuade them to to change their minds. For TDP Taiwan Alliance and the death penalty. We feel that no matter we about we should. We want to abolish the death penalty or not. But we need to support the victims victims rights. But the victims rights is not only the execution. Not only death penalty is a. Various way OK. And if victims they want to they think that. The people deserve the death penalty. Is there right to say because they are the people suffer. More and I will not say you cannot say so. Because. It's too difficult it's too. To suffer so I will not say no. You should support anti-discipline. No I will not say so. But what we trying to do is to have more. More protection for the human rights. Not only money but in every way. If they need help they need help. I think TDP is the NGO that in Taiwan. I think from the very beginning we think about the victims. Rights and we invite victims group to. Taiwan to share their experience and. We have a lot of lawyers cooperate with us. So they defense for the bad guy but also. They are a lawyer for the victims. So sometimes they know that we are. We know a lot about the victims. So sometimes lawyers will ask me to say. Can you help me to find social worker. So find the psychiatrist for victims. For his his case. Of course this is not the public. This is not under under this is not. This is under table help because we know. More people so I can help the lawyer. But every time we will try and. For me if I can if I talk to the public. I will say. To abolish the death penalty is the. Is the government's criminal. Justice policy OK everyone can. Have a say. Of course victims of course everyone. But if the judge say I sentence these. People to death because of the victims. I think it's unfair. Because if the. Of course if the people is the real one. But how about if this case is innocent one. Then you say because of the victims say so. So I missed trial this case. And he sentenced death and killed. Can you say so no so if the judge. He want to sentence someone to death. He need to say in his name. Not in victims name or in if the government. They want to ask you the people. In your own name not in victims name. Because you just give the responsibility. To the victims and I think they are. They are the people in this situation. They suffer a lot so we don't need. We shouldn't give this burden to them. Yeah. But I feel I feel in the. Previous years more and more victims. They can talk to us. Maybe not 100% say OK I suppose the death penalty. Anti death penalty but they will say OK in some. Situation I suppose you or even we can. Talk in some panel or discuss. And of course we have some victims support. Anti death penalty but of course some victim. They don't support anti death penalty. I don't know that international question. So do you feel that Taiwan can learn any lessons. From other countries that. Remove the death penalty. Even even in the UK it's. Not so distant we still talk about. This past history and. The way that we did it execute some. Innocent people. And. And when we think about public opinion. Often. Public opinion actually would sometimes public opinion. The UK would like to return to the death penalty. But it's never taken too seriously. So. Could you kind of comment on whether. Other international cases. I think I want to. Mention two countries in Asia. One is Mongolia and one is South Korea. I think Mongolia is a very good example. Because in 2010 their president announced. That he want to abolish the death penalty. And then he said there is a moratorium. In Mongolia and after two years. The parliamentary 90% of the. Parliamentary members supports. To sign the ICCPR the second. Second optional protocol. So in the in the 2010 when. The president say he want to abolish a death penalty. You know the majority of the MP they say no. They don't want to abolish a death penalty. But by the press the president take. The responsibility to talk to the MP. And to talk to them to convince them. So 2012 90% of the MP they support. The second optional protocol and then. They abolish the death penalty in law. And so I think this is. I think the Mongolia's experience is really good because we. We visit Mongolia I believe in 2015. And you can see that when the government say they want to abolish. Death penalty they just take action. In the government way and. So then it is success. So when you say the parliamentary. Because afraid of the public opinion they will not change the mind. No, you can see Mongolia has a good example. Someone need to take action. Yeah, and the second opinion. The second example is South Korea. Because I think they don't have execution. They have more auditorium until now is more than 23 years. And. So a lot of country when before they. Abolish that abolish the death penalty by law. They have long time long time moratorium. So we can see that OK in Asia. We have we can have we still have good example. But of course in Taiwan we will always say OK. You can see that Japan still have the death penalty. The United States still have the death penalty. But but you can still find that United States they. Their number of execution and. You know is less and less and also they have more states. They have moratorium. So we need to learn for good example. Especially when the government Taiwan government say. Taiwan is going to abolish the death penalty. So of course he need to learn. Experience from good example. Not bad example. But sometimes our government didn't do that. So we try to. You know we try to talk to them and try to. Let them know that there are a lot of good example. That we should follow. So Bonnie got a follow up. Bonnie did you want to come in? If we if I can. Bonnie would you like to if you just go ahead Bonnie. Yes hi I wasn't sure I needed to be on camera. But thank you so much for this talk and. There's so much material packed in there so much to tease out. I am I'm very moved by your work. Thank you for all the issues that you've raised and your commitment. I just want to quickly say because I think. The penalty is often used. As a justification you know as a way of deterring crime. But I just want to say that yeah you know and I. And I think we're all preaching to the to the choir here. That it does not you know there's empirical evidence from criminology. To say that it does not deter crime. And so I just send a link. Where the UN said it very clearly already. Oh in 2015. Okay that sorry. That it does not do so. Yeah. Yeah thanks for that. Bonnie for adding that that link in the in the chat. Thank you. So we're we're coming to the end of our session. Does anyone have any kind of final questions you'd like to. To raise. I just have one one more question I've been wanting to ask. One thing we see. With a number of Taiwan's civil society. Movements is that the Taiwan government is quite. Encouraging for them. Internationally. In other words for example supporting. NGOs to go out of Taiwan. And tell Taiwan story. And we saw this for example with LGBT rights groups. So even though. Often they're not so helpful domestically. Does the Taiwan government support you to. Go out on the international stage. I think the. The. Taiwan democracy foundation. Democracy yeah. But you cannot say it's a kind of. Funding but because they are more. For human rights issue so yeah. And. On. On the country I think we always encourage our government. To go to the international stage. I mean every three years there is a work. Work Congress against the death penalty. And I think. Next one will be next year in Berlin. OK and we always encourage that. Minister of Justice he need to send someone. To join them the Congress with us. Then you can understand that. The whole world. Is discussed how to if abolish a death penalty. Maybe you can find a way. But the from the second one we know. And then until now they didn't you know. Send anyone to go with us. And. Yeah but of course. In Taiwan. We invite. The government invite the international expert. To review our report on IC CPR. And ICSCR. And I think that's good because. Every time every four years when we. Have this opportunity. And the international expert they came to Taiwan. They will raise more human rights issue. To Taiwan government. And also NGO. So we've done a lot. Of that. So I have to say that. To ratify to cover this is. Is very important stage. Step for Taiwan. And also I'm also the board member of. Covenants watch is a very important. Angel in Taiwan to help. Everyone to understand the. Human rights standard. Yeah. Fantastic so. We've come to 1015 so we need to bring things to a close. And get ready for our next. Student panel. So I'd like to thank me for sharing. Her long experience of struggling for. Human rights and opposition to the. The death penalty and we hope that in the future. You get a chance to come to London. And to actually share with us. In person we've just touched upon the service. Of so many different issues.