 Thank you for staying with us. You're still watching The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa right now It's time for our hot topic and this talks about Ninggy and what's happening in the Senate. So our hot topic says we call Ninggy immediately Serap tells Acquabio and joining us to have a conversation is Kola Wali Uluwa Dari. He's a deputy director Serap. Good morning Kola Wali. Thank you for joining us Good morning. Thank you for having me. Lovely. Okay, so we've seen what has happened in the Senate over the past week from the suspension of Senate of the senator Ninggy to the budget padding of about according to him about 3.7 because the initial budget he says was 25 trillion Naira However, the federal government has come out to say no the initial budget was about 27 0.8 or so trillion Naira, so 27.9 there about and it's not 25 according to Ninggy So we're seeing all of this and I mean you are from Serap. You're the deputy director of Serap I want to just get your thoughts on all of this how it even started and what was your initial reaction To all of this when you're hearing of budget padding like how do we have one budget? Being approved and signed and then you're seeing another one being implemented Thank you very much. It's going to need to be able to get beyond the Controversial value of this subject and look at the account of review aspects Put in the 10 to 15 of course and the ultimate big things in mind What's that it's not Ninggy is saying is that The orders as it were contains items that need not be there. It doesn't mean we have two orders So that is a prayer that is the reason why you've got taking this position of writing to the Senate president asking the Senate presidents to refer these allegations because they remain allegations as as far as Criminality is concerned to the ICAC and the FCC to investigate these allegations and perhaps even individuals And then they would face them on that would also mean a recovery of any forms that either this post or plans to be Disposed and that is the least the National Assembly can do in this instance That was a bit of clarity for context The proposed budget by the second in the National Assembly was just a bit above 27 trillion 2725 actually making it 28 trillion But there is an aspect of the budget called the GOE's which is government under the process which by practice Government has always avoided a breakdown of the budget of the GOE's So the part we just have a budget of 2024 they are professional arts If you can get that on the website of the budget office of the Federation is just one it is 28 trillion But the segment for the government with enterprises was not initially published In fact, what you have published presently is the proposed budgets of common good as the enterprises Which amounts to over just three billion. So when you put the 25 billion and the three trillion together you have 28 2 trillion or so that is the budget They may be there are two issues but that we need to highlight is the opacity in the nature of the budget and what is The so now intervention projects which is called consensus projects Those two issues are distinct for the form what we've seen as a budget money Sports is not in your freedom. In fact, so I'm going to call in 2017 and just this interest Well, maybe so the Fed right not me goes and see them was actually judgment in favor of syrup in 2018 Compendent the president there a present worry to investigate and make sure that those who are found coming with something We're doing a presently actually well coming with budget money at that time she will face the law because government is not enforced that Now to the two issues I mentioned the Intervention project and your policy in the budget in the budget process What we call sooner intervention projects is what is also called successive projects, which is Unlawful there is no law that allows Legislatures to propose an incest projects really the three answer government and this is a clear that is what the principle of separation of balance Of course checks and balances comes in some way between but the legislators job is primary to make us when the executive's job is And both of these to propose the budget and implement it and for the good This national assembly in certain more than 7,000 projects in the 2024 but in fact it was seven thousand four hundred and four hundred and forty two projects It's not alarming the southern call the question if the executive are proposed And I'm pretty happy but in that they are in their own wisdom Tell them the budget of the new home and then a national assembly review the budget is as part of that And the duties in certain more than seven thousand projects. How does that fit into the plan of the president? So we care of whatever that means It is That's certainly as powers to review the budget also But why would they insert more than seven thousand produce? Segregates the background and improves budget in national assembly The executive and you are not in one hundred billion everything for what is called sooner intervention for this witness a Expedition of love, but the national assembly work at home two trillions On the on sooner intervention for this now what is more alarming which I think the engineer should be interested in is that Most of these are locations to ministry department agencies I even am created to engage that don't have the technical expertise to carry on this job For instance, what's the business of the minister of a great a constructive roots of binding was in leco states And all this is I have a budget which is I might be asked these kind of conversations they operate in It's not to be political. It's not to divide legends But we're calling Nigerians to be part of this toughness process We're talking about is on the website of the budget office of information I invite every major to download this budget and check it line by line, of course It's more than 1000 pages, but you can see these things I'm talking about and that would bring up the question whether that's budget padding or not Why would the national assembly insert more than seven thousand projects in the budget? Now why are these projects inserted in ministries that we do not have the computers to carry out these actions? Ultimately, these are the ones of the angels to be used to our common These will not do the angels any good. And ultimately we all become victims of we the Mavicens they call sweet is showing itself clearly now in the budget process All right, so you talked about the project I mean, I would definitely want to read up what the budget is like and Seeing all of these lines that you're talking about. So if we're seeing 7000 projects, I want to believe, you know It's for the good of Nigerians But do you think it's even a way to cut costs because currently economically we're not really doing good We're not in the best position. And I think, you know, the economic analysts will say that So are we not supposed to be trying ways to, you know, even cut costs then padding up or adding more things with this government-owned Enterprises and the projects that they're putting That we still don't have an idea about because like you said, why would the Ministry of Agriculture be trying to do roads and bus? That should be maybe Ministry of Works and all but obviously everybody's just trying to get things to say Okay, I have this project. I have that and looking for ways to put money So students in this whole thing called governance students are politicians the senators the president and you know Even the governance students will be finding ways to actually cut costs Especially when it comes to our budget instead of adding all of these projects that they probably even know nothing about or it's not connected to their own ministries So that is the question Nigerians should be asking and we gain just for context The capital expenditure of the Ministry of Agriculture was just over 300 billion era, specifically 332 billion era By the time the National Assembly has inserted projects, they are more than 90 billion era But then just like the question you have asked where are we getting the money to pursue this projects number one number two Are these projects really necessary and do they fit into the overall plan of the government being led by the president? To ensure that Nigerians get the benefits of good governance that he has done to renew No, I'm just what's the question why this sign this bucket into law going the various inflations that would impede the Implementing the budget according to the plan he has that's what makes the president Policies in a way, but often making will the Nigerian people are the victims of big practice Zona intervention with the should be discontinued which also found the basic of our request in the national system That has president and Senate leadership to make a commitment to continue this practice It simply allows the corruption even if it's not corrupt in itself It's a colleges and Alaska show and then Signing projects to me this is not to know that the confidence to do the most She's also an indication of corruption and that as you have been to and I do totally agree That's what we do not have this to not this to pursue to implement this point the body that is almost a 9 trillion We do not have the Thoughts to implement this but if we have to go so why are we spending so much or necessary and wastefully in the midst of poverty? more than 80 million 180 million Indians are still Does this administration have any plans to leave this in the world of a poverty? What is the correlation of this several thousand witness to lift in a chance of a poverty that is the question We need to get beyond the politics the rather political semantics going on in the national assembly Did not against other party videos that feel a grip about them now they're not just your share The issue is about accountability Right the involvement of people in the government's most a very critical part that I should quickly mention is When this operation view was being considered was there a public hearing the Nigerians have the opportunity to weigh in They gave us see the budget lines at the time it was been discussed at the national assembly to be able to point out What should be and what not these are all that have allowed this system go on for too long and you really should small Now you should stop Well, so talking about projects something that I just remembered was the fact that the FCT minister About a few weeks ago. I'd come out to say he wanted to build the largest Waterpark in Africa. I don't know if you saw that news and to me it was a little bit ridiculous because I said Is this what we really need at this point? I mean people are looking for how to feed people are just looking for how to get by and Your own pet project is probably a waterpark. I understand if you're saying you want to use it for tourism Which is great. I mean that's supposed to get revenue for the country But then do we even have the security to ask people to come in so just thinking about the projects It's just almost like I see it as misplaced priorities sometimes with all of these projects that they try to To bring up but then my question now is if we think that we have so much money, right? Or maybe sometimes maybe they might be tone-deaf. They don't know what's going in the country They don't know people are suffering. How are we supposed to fund all of this? And there is a little report that says an average Nigerian Oals about three thousand dollars money that I haven't seen I'm probably owing because when you think about when you think about our debt profile it's So much and so every single day they come up with this money is that they want to do this They want to do that and then we have to probably borrow again, but let's just bring it back to Ninghi's suspension Some people would argue and say that Ninghi said the right thing But he said it at the wrong time or he said it in a wrong way. Do you agree with that? I do not agree with that. And that was said earlier that we need to get beyond the politics Which is the tribal leaders in the snow And I want you to look at this for the governance and accountability perspective Which is how every Nigerian should look at it. So commonwealth and these are things that we use for our food and governance And so it goes beyond the motive of Senator Ninghi The whisperer policy that Nigerian presently uses because of course we do not have a substantive whistleblower and noble Of course, consider Senator Ninghi's Question is this Has he made allegations of corruption? Yes Has he also mentioned names and mentioned specific years he has So the government can do and in this instance The government will be the leadership of national assembly means to invite other government agencies to look at the allegations he has made So of course ICPC and he has been doing a job and he did not think or they could not see any wrong thing So that's basically but He is a whistleblower that has made allegations of corruption that should be investigated and also under the context We also know that this is not the first time this issue that he is coming up Which is why the leadership of national assembly rather than the act of suspending Ninghi or Nigerians reacting to say that Ninghi had done the right thing in the wrong way He seemed to be a serious litigation sitting investigated either by a national assembly or by actual companies is the answer to no So why do we want to stop you from? exposing corruption as well But in an administration that sees ideas fighting corruption It's so it is not about how he has done it when he did it or where he is for it is about what he has said And that's why I say that even the laws consider Senator Ninghi in this instance as a whistleblower The article 33 of the United Nations Convention against Corruption By the main mandates Nigerians as a steed party to ensure that we lack all the processes that protect and promote people coming forward to Blow the wish for last operation which was a little needy at all So act to that is a fact this suspension as the pride people is Representing of the right to have someone in the national assembly who will represent it Well, it goes against the basics the basis of having there that someone in the system is the actions of the digital is not right And it's something that should be condemned by all Nigerians So with him being suspended would you now say that obviously because he has blown the whistle You know opening this kind of warms that is going on in the national assembly They're just trying to push him out and say, you know what you are a bad egg to us Do you think that's what's happening and they're just trying to punish him for doing the right thing? Well, maybe because they are all they're all in it together, so they definitely know that that's what's going on So they're not looking at it not because they don't know they're not looking at it because they don't want it exposed Which is why I might be that this is the public domain now and again as I'm talking about this The IACPC and the FCC and the government itself of course is working with drama that is a fall in national assembly Which is why they should step in in the letter when we wrote in national assembly we've also copied the IACPC and the FCC The president at the Art of the Journal of the Federation They should be able to step in to do their investigation just because corruption has been alleged in national assembly does not recruit The IACPC and the FCC for me persecuting these allegations and making sure that they get a group of it So yes, the national assembly and Joe is not interested in investigating this issue Anticorruption agencies and the president as the head of government should be able to authorize an investigation to ensure that the engineers That we understand what is going on and that you play the windows and company boom they should face a lot Importantly that these funds that would otherwise have been wasted or stolen and Divided to put us that would benefit nature else who are ultimately presently assistance the victims of Lisa of this robbery Okay, so where do we go from here? I know you're big on accountability. I mean that's what syrup stands for being accountable and as of right now I think there is a trust deficit between the Nigerian citizens and the government Right, so you would expect some form of Transparency with the government to say, okay, you know what this is exactly what it is This is what we want to use this money for even if you have to borrow because some people will tell you that borrowing is good But as long as you're borrowing for the right reasons, you're not borrowing to just be frivolous You're not borrowing to spend ridiculously You're borrowing to ensure that okay, you're doing the right thing You can make more money and pay the debt, but in this case we're seeing that year in year out We keep borrowing every single time and we're unable to even pay our debts So what is the way forward now? How does how can the government start to build that trust with his people? Thank you very much. I would rather talk to you As the same as we're having this conversation with government Government government is not one foreign body that we do not know. We know the government We know what we refer to as promise It starts with a present and it ends with the least public officer in any public institution in Nigeria Including those who are elected or appointed, it includes everybody in public office They have taken a vote of office that clearly states what they should do and what they shouldn't do We have full of conduct in the constitution that clearly describes how each public officer should do his or her job These things they know I think what is important now is for the people to understand their role Citizens that our role does not start and end every four years in the election cycle It's usually all cycle elections, but when we can't survive Our role as citizens by defending governance continues. It doesn't stop for one day We need to hold those in government accounting Two things about how they use public forms and the powers that they have and now transparent the processes Which is why it's not so important what the vote of any government official is Now accountability means you're able to explain to the people what's the process Now the people involved in the budget process in instance in the 2020 immigration act The answer to say no That's just wrong. The people should have been involved at the public hearing stage in the national assembly What about the implementation of the budget itself? Now the people involved were sure that the whole public officers are accountable throughout the MPAs and great implement the processes Over the years, Nigerians are not done enough of that. And it's like organizations like this Sarah They need not in this regard to make sure that Nigerians find space So why are they preaching to the quiet as it were talking to government which they've been doing Which of course forms the basis of the algorithm we do from time to time That is I need to engage so that they understand the importance Of holding compared to account And that all compared to account is not about being political. It's not about the political language That's what we do in your tribe when you really don't know who you like or you don't like No, it is about the commonwealth and the benefit of holding able to account Which is why conversations like this very important If you guys in the media are being the best you can Nigerians must be informed beyond the rather mundane issues of tribe politics or where Niki is from or what you are saying Oh, that's not important This is wrong. The point that process is not transparent These monies are being grouped with that ultimately they are implemented But Nigerians need to be able to speak out to ensure that they're right in the store But if we do that because you've seen cases in the past for instance Sarah comes all the time and I know you guys are always slamming lawsuits Here and there this is just me being making light of the situation if we do that most times, you know, it falls onto the ground Most times nothing is being done So how can we start to even seize our power because obviously the office of the citizen should have some form of supremacy But we live in a country whereby you say all of these things you talk about it And sometimes people are there to just bring you down because you're talking against the government So how can we start to wield? The power that we have to ensure that they have no choice to listen to us and make sure that things are being done the right way It's a continuous process Each thing we have not afford to give up The Seraph is just a group of Nigerians who have come together since 2004 to ensure that the writing is done So we're not enough of citizens who do not even incorporate this with the organizations and are doing so much more wonderful Even much more than seraph We need to empower these people and we need to get more people but it is not a spring unfortunately It's a moral we need to continue But much more importantly which is why discussions like these are The citizens need to understand that they are right-golders They have the right to ensure that those in public offices who we call the digital bearers Or it gives it to them to use the power in favor of people that's the reason of social contraction It is it is one thing for the people to know they have this problem It is another thing to be able to use it objectively and not subject So not because the person is on the north of south or belongs in particular try or perhaps is He will be is he or she is of the same religious knock as we are People need to know that customs is covenants and restrictions and immigration Transmissions and accountability We go beyond all these basic sentiments which is why we need to continue these kind of conversations It is advocacy that is aimed But educated citizens learning and not learning what they've learned to buy a lot of years And learning what they ought to do Sometime putting the quote to the choir as I've said telling government officials what they should do Not because perhaps you do not know what to remind them of what they should do in the interest of people So really it's not something that's probably going to happen in the day And we cannot afford to give up which is why like seraph Nigerians citizens need to have that resilience To continue to own government accounts Residents and the administration wants Nigerians to be resilient in bearing with the economy But much more importantly beyond that Nigerians need to have that resilience to continue to engage And demand accountability Without feeling either Cheated or without even feeling like The real standard has been political. It's all part of the governance processes We cannot see that Okay, so bringing it back to senator Ninghi's suspension and seraph has called for him to be reinstated Right, because I think it's a three month suspension there about do you think this would happen? And if they don't reinstate him, what is seraph going to do about that? And here we need to separate seraph From the citizens. We have started this initiative as a group of citizens. We have started this Nigerians are talking about it's not on the seraph Because we have the right just like every Nigerian to go to court to enforce the right that we are That is clearly shown in section six of the constitution Which advises judiciary to be the final avatar to determine what's right and what's the duties and obligations of citizens These are these and governments and citizens and government officials We go to court to do the right to Compel the government to do the right thing if they do not in this call But more importantly, citizens need to take up this advocacy and press it all And one in the nation assembly Send the president represents a consensus in Nigeria where they represent thousands or perhaps millions of people And bring the weight of their voices to care of this. So it's really about seraph It's about people understanding the issues and continue to talk and engage with governments So I can imagine if more than 70 million Nigerians rise up Which forms perhaps less than 40 percent of the Nigerian population And demand that every one in the national assembly was told the line of this advocacy to get sent into an inhuman state Spend down in the green jive. That's what they can be calling the other powers to do so That is why we need to continue this conversation We go to court of course to answer your question in the simplest terms if this call is not dead But more importantly Nigerians need to press it all to ensure that those national assembly are doing the will of the people So if it's going to be reinstated here is my worry with things like this that has happened Do you think there might be some form of witch-hunting? Because now all eyes are on him So obviously some of his colleagues who are not happy with what he has done Will start to find ways to just frustrate him out of this. So what do you think is going to be that the You know the preceding events that might even happen for us and it's a ningy As more than I don't want to make this about personalities and persons they're about to be used And Senegaline here is a you can explain politician. He has been a nationalist since 1989 So I might address is that he knows how to take care of himself But what's very important because the whistleblower has recognized like the all crack convention Which is like The president needs to comment he needs to be able to protect him as it were Some the consequences of what he has done as a whistleblower, but what we're going to do those allegations need To be investigated. So I'm sure that He will find a way to protect himself or whatever backlash it is And of course the engineers and pay organizations like Sarah by there to also ensure we that When it is restated he's also protected within the context of the whistleblower policy that we have in nature Which is why this is another reason why the president must also move to sign the whistleblower bill The former president did not sign it and this national assembly also passed the law To create a robust framework for people to call out corruption to ensure that they are protected Perhaps he gives a little legal inventors to champion the bill now in the house to ensure that it is passed Perhaps yeah Perhaps I mean that might just happen and hopefully he does because I I would say that I think that was A very bold move not everybody can have some form of integrity Especially when you're dealing with other people like I mean There are other people involved and sometimes you might get scared But I think it was a very bold mode for him to come out and say, you know This is not what was signed or this is not what we had discussed earlier There's something fishy here. Um, and I just hope that you know, he gets reinstated with syrup calling for his For him to be reinstated and even other Nigerians as well And I really hope the Nigerians, you know come up and we start to Bring our voices together because we're louder when we speak together as one So, um, but yes, we want to say thank you for coming. It's always a pleasure having a conversation with you. Thank you so much All right Okay, we've been sticking with Kola Wale Oluwadare. He's the deputy director for syrup And we've been talking about what's going on in the national assembly Well, since he is representative syrup, um, or syrup as we call as acts rather the senate to record ningi immediately Back to the house of assembly. But yes, this is where we have to draw the court in on the show today It's been amazing having the breakfast with you. My name is rome paul sin. I'll see you again tomorrow Have a good day