 But this question really touches on something that you brought up before which is that there are many wisdom traditions or thousands of years that have said very very similar things and and and in some sense as a scientist I'm sort of a Johnny come lately right science is sort of a Johnny come lately to this but but the science is coming along but but The kind of answer to the question that you just raised will require That we take all the insights from the wisdom traditions and then we also take the rigors of the scientific method in terms of theory building and careful testing and Bring these together in a synergistic interaction So that we we find out from the wisdom traditions deep deep insights They were there first in terms of saying on space time is not fundamental like the physical world is not fundamental And they've given us some informal pointers to what might be beyond right. There's no mathematics there. There are right So now that now the Johnny come lately science and Hey, we now now we realize the space time is doomed that there's something deeper And we can now start to build mathematical models that try to capture some of the insights of the wisdom traditions And we can have this back and forth now between our intuitions on the one hand and then our attempts to make them precise And why do we do that? Is it just to be pedantic and to be you know over the top with math that it's not that at all It's that in some sense You don't really know what you're saying Until you say it so precisely that you could be wrong That's when You are beginning to know what you're so we will use in informal words, you know in the in the wisdom traditions including words like God and If I ask you precisely, what's the definition of God you won't find it anywhere. So What we need to do is To try to make these intuitive ideas that the traditions have they're probably genuine insights make them absolutely precise So that we can then learn and be surprised like so for Einstein for example in I think around 1907 or so he had this fundamental insight About gravity that if he was in something like an elevator that was free falling that you would you would find and you had a you know Something that could weigh you in the elevator you find that you were weightless You wouldn't weigh anything inside the elevator and he said that was like the happiest thought of his life because it was It was the insight that gave him the general theory of relativity, but it took him something like eight years of Struggle Really tough emotional struggle sleepless nights Pulling the hair out kind of kind of stuff to turn that on insight into finally In 1915 or something like that. He got he wrote down the equation and that's what it really means to say If I was in an elevator I would be weightless But what and the reason you do it now is because then the mathematics is Smarter than the person who wrote it down that mathematics that Einstein wrote down He didn't know it But it entailed the existence of black holes and when someone else a year later after he published it some Some guy in the front lines of World War one actually working on the equations discovered The guy named Schwarzschild Discovered this solution to Einstein's equations That there are these black holes and Einstein did not like it. He disbelieved in black holes for decades so here's a case where We write down our we take our ideas including these deep spiritual ideas that we've had for thousands of years We write them down mathematically not merely to be pathetic so that we can actually learn what we were talking about all along Falling in an elevator and being weightless means there are black holes Well, who would have ever figured that out and so the things that we say in the wisdom traditions They're gonna mean all sorts of other things that we had no clue that they meant Until we get serious and write them down. So that's why I want to see this synergistic Interaction between science and spirituality where we take the insights from the one and the rigor of the other and then We learn we get surprised That's that's that's the hope. Wow. Yeah, that's so well articulated the you you said this in another In another way as well that you become a student of your theory that the equations become smarter than the genius that wrote them down that Right, you're just it's so spot-on that that that the Flag that we plant beyond the edge of knowledge that we create hypotheses towards That just flowers a whole nother field that we weren't ready for we didn't know yet existed in The science of spirituality are those two driving forces that have gotten us So far and that to where we are and so to bring them together and harmoniously test them I like using the The description where you think about like what have we done the Manhattan project and drop nuclear bombs on Hiroshima Nagasaki? If our science community was a little bit more spiritually ethically morally philosophically Awakened, but would we also would we would we? Would we have all of the peddling of snake oils if our scientific method was stronger to analyze those Snake oil salesman. So there's there's that as well. So they're these things they they they come together like peanut butter and jelly Very good, and I you know, there's been this long-standing antipathy between science and spirituality that has some interesting historical roots in particular for example the the treatment of Galileo by the Catholic Church Yeah, I mean and and Alan Turing even in the last hundred years. Yeah, and that was yeah, that was Society that was But really cruelly attacked him for being homosexual sexual. Yeah, right. So so and so So there's been this long-standing antipathy between science and spirituality at least since Galileo and the Catholic Church and and Giordano Bruno burned at the stake. Exactly. I mean that's that's the kind of stuff that that that That we don't want to have happening and and that's why it's it's really critical to walk away from dogmatism Yeah, right. That's that's dogmatism is the source source of all this and you know, it seems like Most spiritual traditions would recognize that that humility is a virtue And I would include in that humility about my beliefs humility that I could be wrong and Especially when we have hundreds of different religious systems Many of which in the past have said that I'm right and all the other religions are wrong now Now we know that at most one of those hundreds could be right right and and what's the probability that is mine? And so so instead of going in that whole framework, it's rather Why not have an attitude of Right, but whatever the ultimate reality is Surely there's compassion For my ignorance and for what I got wrong and there's it's and Surely the the the most Healthy way for us to proceed is to listen to each other and To share I don't have to believe what you say you don't have to believe what I say But but I also don't need to kill you if you just disagree with me You don't need to kill me if I disagree, you know, and instead we can have this this humility to listen Maybe agree to disagree And then maybe later on in 10 years. I realized oh I was deeply wrong and You know Sharon over there She was deeply right and I just didn't see it at the time But I've grown up and now I see it so so just giving ourselves the time in the space To to grow up and to to learn Pumbly and that's the way I feel about the science. I mean I I'll say this I love scientific theories that I studied them. They're incredibly beautiful and I don't think I've ever seen a true Scientific theory. I think all scientific theories that I've studied so far are deeply false They're the best we have so far Yeah, but they're good enough in many cases to tell us where they're false and That's the power of a theory when it where it tells you where it gets off And that's what I want in spirituality is a theory and spirituality That's good enough to tell me where it is inadequate and where it's beckoning me to now go for a deeper theory With a different level of understanding, but it's all new inadequacies and girdle is suggesting that We will be doing this forever Don I feel like the the edge pushing that's happening around Bringing together science of spirituality the edge pushing that's happening around Understanding our source code that that the topics that we've talked about and Understanding that ultimate reality I feel like the word integral and Integrality are a very important phrase there because of Just it the integral and the derivative but the integral in the sense of the integration of all Perspective but the derivation in the sense of the Each one of us having a unique experience in that candy store So, yeah, yeah, and in a unique artistic contribution or gift to bring to the world and and that that's that's the 99.9% genetic similarity integral and the point 1% genetic difference differentiation So that yeah good. Yeah, good. Absolutely. I I think you've raised an incredibly important point to view each person that you meet as a gift They have a new perspective that's different from yours and and rather than putting up barriers to things that are Foreign and novel to recognize that here's a chance For me to explore something that I that I might not have ever ever explored without interacting with this person and You know, this person. Maybe I'm a geek that likes Mathematics and this person is an artist who likes painting and photography I Can learn from their perspective and they can learn from mine and and I can appreciate If I'm willing to open up and humbly listen and and really listen because I may not have the concepts yet I May not have the point of view to really understand what that person is saying. Yeah, which case It's even more important for me to put in the time and effort because I'm gonna have more to learn there There's more that I can can grow from that So so having that kind of view of our differences that they're an opportunity to learn to expand our horizons And to realize that that in some sense, perhaps is what life is all about is constantly expanding our horizons and constantly Enjoying new vistas Vistas that we've had we'd like to sit in our own vistas and say this is it. Yeah. Hey, you know that next mountain may have something even more fun Yeah, the constant exploration of the infinite candy store. I love this It seems to make the most sense of the alternative being we already are all of the infinite candy store combinatorics Eternally happening and that has a little bit more of maybe a Nihilistic eternal return sense to it that we've been here before we're doing this again But the the other one the idea that there is just it's never going to end the infinite exploration It has a little bit more adventure and it has a little bit more Darwinian metaphysical implications to it as well where we need to take this seriously. We need to take our Rock orbiting of the star very seriously because if if as above so below another spiritual wisdom is true That's also scientifically validated that if natural selections happening here between us natural section is all it could also be happening at this Cosmic level not only in our universe is but universe says competing Against one another for that recursion and how likely it is that that they themselves get to those next tastes in the the quality of candy store That's quite possible. That would be something I would really like to explore in this dynamics and graphs of conscious agents to see what What in the world's going on here and what kind of dynamics are we using maybe to explore the candy store? Absolutely Yeah, Don. I'm so so grateful for this conversation Thank you. Thank you for everything that you're doing and that you've inspired so many people to think in Refreshing and new ways and push the edge of what's known. We're very grateful to you. Thank you Thank you to all your lab to all your students and lab and teammates As well that that's very important the people behind the groove of the song Right. Oh, absolutely. I couldn't have done it without my graduate students and my my collaborators You know and I could name a bunch of them that that Frankly push my ideas around all the time and that's how I learned