 Start a little slideshare. How does that look everyone can't hear anyone in jitsi? The moment you guys are all muted Excellent hello everyone I Just want to get some feedback from everyone if you guys if you folks can all hear me okay Someone can unmute and tell me if if I'm sounding okay to you We did a check recently a few minutes ago and it sounded all great. Oh, excellent. Thank you scan great Then I'm gonna begin So today's event so if you're wondering why I'm staring up at the screen We're here in Cape Town The Wicca the wicca mania mini events in Cape Town and I'm here with a panel of people I feel like and swing my computer around briefly just to to show you show you some of the folks that are with us here today And on the other side so we've got a literal round table today digital round table To talk about copyright on Wikipedia and I've also got a big screen I'm staring at myself Ask if everyone can mute please There we go Welcome today. We'll be talking about copyright in In Wikipedia how to use and navigate copyright in Wikipedia. I'm gonna start off this Presentation. Well, it's not a presentation. It's a round table discussion I'm gonna start us off today with a brief outline of Copyright regulations and Wikipedia how to navigate those What some of these issues are and then I'm going to Give as much time as possible for some Q&A Hopefully we'll have some some legal experts. Well, we've got at least one copyright legal With us here today you can help answer these questions any questions you might have about How to navigate copyrights Whilst editing Wikipedia, which is today's subject So without further ado Let's begin So I I've chosen to divide up the major copyright issues affecting editing Wikipedia into basically four large categories Really the biggest one is how to navigate using multi-media photograph videos, etc Because all the other ones kind of fall under that anyway, but for simplicity I've started us off. I wanted to start off the discussion with talking about choosing a license That's typically the first point of entry for most people When they engage with copyright material and Wikipedia, they're uploading their own The own creations their own works of creativity and works of novelty on on to Wikipedia and when they do that they have to select a Copyright license and I'll talk about the copyright licenses just now I'll follow that up with a discussion about Photographs the biggest Topic here when it comes to photographs is the issue around peanut panorama But there are a lot of Practical issues and freedom panoramas quite a very specific issue in case you're wondering Freedom panorama is the right to take works of public artworks. So these most often include the facades of buildings and and Uploading those to Wikipedia to you it uses illustrations to illustrate architectural features or notable buildings and panorama, but also quickly talk about The the contextuality of when you get Copyright exemption for using which types of photographs and that's leads us quite neatly into the next topic, which is copyright expiration Not copyright doesn't last forever. Thankfully, but the length of how long it lasts for differs from country to country and we'll end off with the Tricky issue of fair use, which is actually much trickier than many people think it is because Not everyone uses fair use cool so when selected creative commons license and As you know, we can meet a commons. We'll only accept multimedia or works creative works that are uploaded with the creative with the Public license or created commons license But commons and Wikipedia Cannot accept any creative commons license. They're basically only three that commons will accept their complicated reasons for why they're only three of the Of the nine credit commons licenses available that Commons accepts one of the more frustrating ones for me as an editor based in South Africa is That we don't accept non-commercial licenses and that's largely because a lot of South African institutions, especially government institutions release do release content under creative commons license But under a non-commercial license, which means that essentially we can't use those and it's quite a struggle to convince the government government entities and public entities to switch from Non-commercial to a more widely accepted license such as share-and-share like attributation full text or just Basically just dropping them the non-attributation license In terms of copyright terms around the world, I Mentioned briefly how not everyone has the same length of term Back in back in days of your many years ago I believe before before wiper The typical length was about 20 or 30 years. I'm talking very long time ago now And more recently in the past. I think twice you can fool me in here Is it like a 50 or 40 years? Is it the 70s or 60s when they decided to extend? By treaty extend license copyright licenses around the world and so in South Africa I thought it was in those days Was that when they said it to 50 years? Okay, so it's actually been much longer than I thought But in South Africa we got 50 years plus life of the author many other countries you see the darker orange one So it's our 70 years summer 60 years I know Mexico is colored in that darker color which indicates 100 years I thought this map might be out of date or maybe it's current in the Homestons sure but My understanding was that Japan also had a 100 year plus life to the author a copyright limitation But please check me on that So so some ideas good. That's a 30 years and I think That's very young. I I don't know why they got such a short a length length of copyright A validity before expiration, but the the long and the short of this is is that If the copyright in the country in which the creative work was made Is is older than the state of expiration like let's say United States I think it's 70 years plus life yours are there then It's you you're free to upload it The United States it's actually quite easy to follow because they they have a Special day every year first of January Wikipedia celebrate first of January This is very special special day in the year when copyrighted material from the term limit enters the public domain and So so it's every year now Sort of more more material especially from the 1920s is now entering into public domain Don't spend too much time on this because I want to sort of give us much time as possible Q&A Freedom panorama. I really briefly explained what that is This is just a map of countries where freedom panorama exists freedom panorama is something I'm just gonna continue going So free panorama is something we generally want because it it gives us the right to take photographs Public works Use them on Wikipedia for illustrative purposes under a creative commons license. We don't have to ask for permission and Go through the logistics difficulties of making that happen As you can see a lot of countries in the world don't allow for freedom panorama increasingly more and more countries are allowing for it I'm just gonna ask if everyone can please mute themselves until we begin the Q&A. Thank you Some countries you'll notice allow for freedom of panorama in External areas only so out in the open only whereas other countries have a more broader freedom of panorama in a copyright exception which allow for Photographs of interior spaces that are also public spaces. So think of train stations for example That are also covered by the freedom of panorama copyright exception and Then a brief update on what has been done in the wikipedia community Globally to try and make copyright law Friendlier to wikipedia and wikipedia editing. I know they I know of advocacy efforts in Australia European Union South Africa, I know the best because I'm involved in that the United States and in the world intellectual property organization efforts to try and get membership there and I can go into detail on any of those if you Are interested in but I'm also happy to open us up to questions on any of the other issues we addressed and hopefully We also have a legal representative from the wikipedia foundation joining us here today to Also help answer the questions in a more expert fashion than myself Thank you any Questions, let me open up the floor here No problem, I'm gonna stop screen sharing. Let's see here Yes, I just missed it. Okay. What do the colors on the map mean? Butch asks so let me quickly go back to that map So they're two maps butch the first map this one here The the colors so the yellow is basically mean 50 years plus life of the author is the extent to which Copyright will last in that country. So if your country is in yellow, that's 50 years plus life of the author So basically after the death of the author add another 50 years Copyright is now expired and therefore it is intimate public domain. You're free to use it if it's an orange It's 70 years, I remember correctly and then for some reason the author of this map decide to color brown as 60 years, so I think Venezuela color there brown so that should be 60 years plus life the author and then the very dark color, which I believe Mexico is colored in is 100 years plus life the author and Ian in the room here with me today He asked about Somalia, which is colored in green and I remember correctly that is 30 years most countries in the world This seemed to be a dog that seems to have adopted the 70 years plus life of the author copyright limitation the second map and Red and so this is the map of freedom of panorama where it exists and where it doesn't exist and the extent to which freedom of panorama grants the copyright exception Red indicates no freedom of panorama. So South Africa. Well, I'm in doesn't have freedom of panorama Philippines for example does not have freedom of panorama Although South Africa We were uncertain for a while about whether or not we did have freedom of panorama or not We we came to conclusion that South Africa doesn't because the copyright law of 1978 is badly written and so But our reading of it much like in Sweden previously Was that really we don't so we sort of air on the side of caution Where's many countries in the European Union do you have been a panorama including North America the Americas as well See if there any other Oh, that's great. Thanks, but just a bunch is just saying that they are bulls filed in the Philippines To include a freedom of panorama exception. Oh, it's a so Venezuela is indeed 60 years Sorry, oh Okay, okay. Thank you. Oh Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Dan I'm sorry about my line. Let me know if you missed anything and I'll repeat it my line might not be 100% Please let me know if you've got any other copyright related questions I am happy to also to go into some detail about the As well as into in any of the more a particular question. I do quickly want to go into one thing in that Creative common the Wikimedia Commons has got a pretty good article on How and when you can use photographs? Particularly photographs on comments and upload them to comments because there's a lot of contextuality when it comes to using Figuring out if if if a work is copyright exempt Especially in in Wikipedia Wikipedia We tend to take the strictest possible interpretation of copyright law in your local country So that does limit us a lot But there are certain notable exceptions some of my more favorite exceptions are if it is a A faithful reproduction of the original work, so If for example, you take a photograph of a copyright expired or exempt Work, let's say a a painting and an old painting Where the copyrights might have expired a hundred years ago and the pic the photograph has no artistic merit It is simply a faithful reproduction of that painting The copyrights would not apply to that because copyright has to pass to have some Novelty or creative input into it to qualify for copyright. That is interesting enough. That is why data Cannot be copyrighted data is not covered by copyright law There's this no Novelty. There's no creativity in in data data is a reflection of fact So I know that there was a debate a while ago about whether and it keeps on seem seeming to crop up Where the data is covered by copyright? It is not it's it's covered by other areas of law So yeah, in terms of the copyright exceptions for use in Wikipedia I would suggest checking out the copyright rules by subject matter on comments it is it is a pretty complete article and There's a similar Choosing a copyright license is another page. I would also recommend. Oh, yes. Let me actually do that I'll share the links with you all now and then so it gives you a little bit of time to ask me some questions Copyright violations Okay, so what about copyright? Someone's asking in chat. What about copyright violations? That is people are misusing content for Wikimedia project. Are there any plans to enforce Wikimedia Commons, etc. License So on Wikipedia If some sort of first of the first start up with this Wikipedia tends to use as as most of us know Wikipedia tends to use Images based on Wikimedia Commons to this for display on Wikipedia And in order to get images onto Commons they have to be They have to be under creative Commons license that is Compatible with Wikimedia Commons Or they have to have no copyright connected them like the copyright is expired, right? There are exceptions to this and that's the fair use exception which I actually haven't talked yet about very much about and If you want to use something under that is Like if you want to use something that has copyright on it the only way around in Wikipedia is Uploading it to Wikipedia itself and Under a fair use justification the face justification is necessarily quite strict It basically says and and we we tend to revert to American law There's a quick disclaimer here in that Not every country uses fair use America largely invented the term and more and more countries are now adopting it fair use is quite a flexible philosophy illegal legal philosophy legal concept which differs from the Copyright regimes that other countries choose to use So just because something might have a fair use justification in the United States It doesn't always mean that you can use it on Wikipedia So for example in South Africa, I'm based we got fair dealing which is slightly different from face. It's actually considerably different A fair dealing basically says there's a list of exceptions copyright exceptions And if you are if you're using the copyright material that's listed on this list of exceptions Then you're fine. You you you can use this material or for basically the public good If it's not on this list of exceptions, I'm sorry. You can't use it. We'll copyright is applicable Most people don't seem to be aware of this on Wikipedia Most people seem to just revert to fair use automatically and that's because copyright is complicated Yes, okay, I'll get to that question just now But there are also other regimes. I know that civil law treats it a bit differently I'm not that familiar with how civil law treats copyright exceptions My my understanding is it's somewhat similar to the list system that they're dealing is based on is that yes Yeah, so it's it's it's concrete lists Much like much like fair dealing The advantage of fair use and this is why we like fair use so much other than we already adopted. We really treat it Probably a bit incorrectly, but we really treat it as a kind of a universal catch-all and exception Because our servers are based in America The advantage of fair fair use is that it's flexible It's not based on the static list So that makes the The law essentially future proof. I mean like the example I like to give is that An entity like Google couldn't exist In in a country that has a fair dealing or civil civil law copyright exception system lists based system because if there's no way for the legislators to have foreseen the use of Copywriter material in the way that Google uses it for what you what they would argue is a public benefit case, right? And so so when Google got started they were sort of taken to court and copyright copyright violation terms America the American court system found that actually That was not a violent the way that Google was using copyrighted material wasn't a violation of Copyright Due to the way fair fair use works and so Google could exist Now that's not really relevant to us as Wikipedia editors But it is a nice little example as to how future proofing works and how flexible the fair use system is Which is sort of a bit of a better fit for us, but I think they're other other folks. Ah Jacob Yes, Jake Jacob is a better better person to answer to sort of fill us in on those kind of details and I am Um Yes, that's right Jacob. Yeah, some countries have been dealing which is far more limited than fair use Australia I'm just gonna answer One more question in saying freedom of panorama you are basing that on the Sorry, it's cut off there Australia doesn't use the language of freedom panorama, but does have some provisions which are similar you should think we haven't but Sometimes this is disputed which can be frustrating to our editors. Yeah, I can see that that happens a lot in law where Illegal concept does actually exist, but it's not coined the same way it is in other parts of the world thereby creating confusion and So you need you do often need someone to read the law To answer you could give you a clear legal opinion about whether or not a copyright exemption exists That's you know, you might not be aware of in a certain country Jacob, I want to know I want to open up the floor to you and get any feedback from you on any of these questions and what I've said Correct me where I'm wrong. Pull me in where I've left blanks And in any aspects like that. Oh, okay. Okay. You can't you can't go in the speaking version. That's unfortunate. Sorry about that I could try and unmute you Ask to unmute Okay In the meantime, are there any other questions? On this issue of copyright because it's it's very complicated term. I'm just gonna add the one more Link that I've got to add. It's a very complicated field of law I'm not a legal expert. I've just sort of spent a lot of time Work advocating for copyright reform, especially in South Africa But like I said, I'm not a legal expert. There are legal experts in this room Who are encouraged to correct me and fill me in where I am? I am wrong Thank you. Thank you, Jacob. Yeah, please do add thoughts in the chat in the meantime and I'm also going to Ask ask if anyone's got any other questions or feedback And you can you're more than welcome to unmute yourself to join us Consistent application either Sure, I don't know if everyone heard Ian's question so Ian was asking what is the status of copyright advocacy globally? In different countries European Union was was one that that he sort of wanted a bit of a focus on I'm better place to talk about the situation South Africa I can give a brief account in the European Union, but if Demetara is in the room He is by far the best person to ask that question to because he directly deals with that I'm gonna I'm gonna have you could forgive me for dodging the European Union question Because I would be more comfortable if Demi answers that But in South Africa, we've made quite a lot of progress We have managed to get freedom of panorama into the copyright amendment bill, which has been passed by both How's the parliament? We've also managed to get freedom of panorama in to the copyright amendment bill and For the past two years now, we've been waiting a bit more than two years but three years now We've been waiting for the president of South Africa to enact the law So the president has been sitting on the law for a long time now Which is actually a violation of the Constitution And blind South Africa took took the presidency to court over this issue But long story short, we've been successful But we've been frustrated in that the law hasn't been enacted But the good news is that those amendments cannot simply be undone because both how's the parliament have passed them And There's a big to and fro going on about sort of details within the law most of the focus tends to be on Fair use fair use versus fair dealing and replacement of fair dealing with fair use Okay, Jacob He's adding some thoughts here So first the term of freedom panorama was actually somewhat coined by the movement You won't find it in most statutes unless they're passed really recently This is shorthand we have for various combinations that allow the right to take photography in public locations The other thing I'd note from earlier is that many EU countries have varying terms based on the artistic quality of the work Which is totally different in the United States. That's true. Actually, I couldn't I know Canada has got the same Got the same situation So EU countries won't have fair use exceptions, but they have works that are not Autistic that enter the public domain only 20 or 25 years leading to a wider array of available works. Oh Thank you, Alex. Thank you, Alice. That's very kind of you So Nadia asks I want to ask if it's allowed to use the links to copyrighted files uploaded on the internet archive so Well internet archive should have a section I'm going to quickly check that internet archive should have a section which lists the the copyright of the work My understanding of internet archive is that most if not all of the material there Is is in some way copyright exempt or creative commons But don't take my word for that check the internet archive check the copyright license associated with each Use of creative work that you want to want to use and Check that and if the internet archive if the copyright license on the internet archive the relevant internet archive page or piece of work is compatible with Wikipedia Then you can use it. You can certainly link to it I know of nothing on Wikipedia that says that you can't link to copyrighted works So because the link is just a line of text taking you to the relevant page to to another host, right? And it's the other hosts responsibility to Respect the copyrights of the user. I'm gonna say this Some caution Yeah, there we go. It's a distinct so Jacob's is just clarifying. Yes linking is considered distinct and almost never violates copyright in the US And that is my understanding of the world generally as well Because that's just text right it's not like You are putting on the the copyright owners on onto the Wikipedia servers or Wikipedia community So Jacob goes on to explain the you know the European Union A couple years ago had a case where a magazine linked to a copyright violation And they knew they were doing it and were found to have violated copyright. So that's why I hesitated Because I couldn't think of some parts of the world where linking to a copyright by Material those copyright violated can get you into trouble So linking can be complicated Wikipedia having servers based in America And Jacob this is where I'm going to need your expertise There's a cons illegal concept called safe harbor and also Tobias if you can also help me out here which means that If it's if it's on the Wikipedia servers Generally American law will apply because the servers are based in America. That's a really butchered explanation of safe harbor But it does provide some copyright protection when it comes to the Wikipedia and I would appreciate some Ex a guidance on safe harbor because it's not something I Okay, so it's a safe harbor protects the internet service provider not the actual user and just to clarify With the search and service provider also include the person running the servers Or does it just include the person providing the internet connection? So would it would it cover Wikipedia as well, or would it just cover your So again, that's that's based on the definition of how a domestic service provider is defined within the country's law So Jacob has said With regards to safe harbor broadly. Yes Douglas that is right The foundation may get demands from a copyright owner listed in the transparency report is a DMCA request That we have to grant it includes us running the servers so that the foundation is protected Mike peel asks I can't hear what the other person is saying. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Mike. Yeah, that's that was Tobias He was speaking softly. I was trying to repeat repeat him and basically just to repeat what Tobias is saying he was saying that I Say probably protects the internet service provider and the definition of an internet service provider is dependent on domestic law So that does from country to country Jacob adds we don't get many DMCA demands. It's like 30 or 50 anyway annually and we grant less than half of that. Yes There are a lot of spurious copyright requests the copyright takedown request that The foundation receives and I also want to add that Some of the net chapters received certainly work me to South Africa We received a couple one or two legal letters in the past You know demanding with the takedown demands so far all of them have been spurious It's a mostly people Engaging in copyright trolling or copyright censorship and using spurious grounds Using spurious copyright arguments to engage in copyright censorship. So for example And this is often the little bit of a segue. I don't want to go too far down this path. It takes us away from copyright We sometimes get legal demands about the defamation for example That someone has written something with Peter that's diplomacy and we demand that it be taken down All of the ones that we as a chapter have received so far have been spurious And the same is with copyright and copyright censorship. It's an interesting thing Which I suppose we can explore a little bit later But it does exist. It's quite similar to patent trolling in a way So Jacob adds users who aren't in the United States should be more careful though An example we've had a couple complaints with someone photographed a private house in the European Union These photographs aren't copyright limited and the Foundation has no risk hosting them But the photographer may be guilty at trespass locally and could find the property owners That's very good point Jacob raises there. So Jacob actually raises a couple things in Jacobs example So the first one are the privacy laws in South Africa. We also got quite strict privacy laws About and that's a different area of law it doesn't have a copyright but you can Be hit on sort of privacy law issues when photographing houses for example There's also Freedom panorama issues which he touched on there briefly as well and This there's different there was one other one that suddenly slipped my mind in Jacobs example about photographing houses But the point the moral of the story is When it comes to photographing in your country it can be a bit of a minefield each country is different Oh, yes, this was the other one Sweden freedom of panorama in Sweden So This is a great example what Jacob was talking about a couple years ago. What was it about six or seven years ago? I think The Swedish chapter will be able to correct me on this the exact date Case was brought against an individual in Sweden for photographing a fountain located in a public square fountain was owned by a museum The photographer took the photograph put it on Commons the museum demanded it be taken down because the Museum was making money selling calendars with the fountain printed on it We can media Sweden so Sweden firstly has unclear or ambiguous laws regarding whether the concept of freedom panorama exists in the country or not Case was brought against the photographer Sweden decide to defend the photographer and cover the legal costs and damages Went to court Wikimedia Sweden very sadly lost the case. I did it. It didn't thankfully clarify the law in Sweden on this issue But it does show that in different countries in a different different laws around say photographing public works That was actually quite and I mean it was there was a silver lining to Sweden's loss In that we in Wikimedia, South Africa We could use that as an example about why we need a freedom of freedom of panorama Exception in the law to clarify the law because things like what happened in Sweden do happen Jacob adds so scanning probability Scanning probably doesn't do it if the all kind of photographer or actually use the camera the photograph Public domain work their photographs Their photographers version may be protected depending on the country in the United States probably not in Germany Probably yes, it's the top of my head Although photos of public domain works are an example of non and non artistic photos that fall in Domain after 20 years in Germany So if you have a museum catalogue from a German museum in 2022, you could probably use it Mike Peele asks. I think that's an answer my question. So change of the topic a little fair enough Oh, yes, I saw Mike you asked Sorry, I'm gonna ask everyone can please just meet yourself. Thanks Um, great. Let's see if there any questions I have missed or answers I have missed Most of everyone Advocacy, oh, let's go up Oh, oh, yes, are there WMF materials for joint advocacy on copyright that is a great question Um, so the Wikimedia Foundation does have a Public policy office That's that's run by by Jan garland Jan is the person to contact about that. Let me quickly Get Jan's details Rather not do that quite so probably do there see my my emails Um Yeah, I'm gonna put Jan's email I'm sure he will not mind me sharing it here so that people can ask Jan for Advocacy materials or questions around the Wikimedia Foundation's Advocacy efforts on copyright, so that's Jan girl Media foundation policy Great Anyone else any other questions? Oh Yes, yes, dimmy has also been very active in the EU copyright reforms. Absolutely Jacob. That's right I already mentioned dimitar once and he's definitely worth mentioning multiple times more Demi is super active when it comes to European Union issues and copyright He is the person to ask about the advocacy efforts in that part of the world and I'm I'm quite happy to also share his detail. I'm sure he won't mind that either So it's a Demi is a good person to ask about the European Union stuff Yeah that there European Union great Other questions on copyright. It's it's a very um It's quite a difficult thing. I can say from experience. Copperhead is quite a difficult thing to advocate On advocate well, I would say for it's very difficult subject to advocate about Because it is a notoriously complicated area of law like I said, I'm no legal expert I am a layperson when it comes to legal matters I'm just very interested in copyright and I've become very involved in advocacy in it but it is it is fascinating when you get into it it also has a lot of Immediate application in Wikipedia and the one unique thing I can say from experience The one unique thing about Wikipedia editors and copyright is that we are one of the few groups that consistently have Very deep and detailed experience of dealing with copyright issues so we're quite unusual in the world of Public benefits entities in that we are very passionate on this issue of copyright because we often encounter copyright as a limitation to our ability to provide Provide free knowledge creates great Wikipedia articles And that and that is quite a mobilizing sort of force within our movement on this one issue of copyright I Know that a lot of copyright lawyers. Oh butch. Yes, please do speak butch Actually this forum is really Informative and as well as Educational I hope that we should not stop doing this because this is Hopefully we could have another forum probably in the next few months or or weeks and continue discussing about copyright because Each and every Wikimedia know Actually is compelled to know copyright because of involvement in commons uploading and interaction with other Wikimedians and it end up other Wikimedians suddenly getting frustrated on on uploading anymore on on commons because because People are trolled by Random Wikimedians on on copyright concerns great. Thank you butch That's that's great to know Well, how are things going in the Philippines out of curiosity, I believe that you quite involved in that part of the world Yeah, actually, I placed on the etherpad The the two new legislation that were passed. Actually, we're almost on the finish line when we're doing this Advocacy work actually it's not through an affiliate, but purely volunteers Jacob knows this Unfortunately, we didn't go on through because there was an election last May so we went to another set of Congressman again, so we're back from to square one But we're hoping that we could have some some weight For any community member or at least the foundation to give us capacity building on how to how we would do Lobbying lobbying process with with legislators because we're not actually lawyers and But we're advocating for for freedom of panorama and good thing that there are already two members of Congress who filed bills to include the panorama provision and when Actually the Intellectual Property Office of the Philippines Explained to us that this provision that was added on the bill actually copied from the copyright law of Australia So I don't know if it is copyright per se, but it's it's at least there's a good good step already going here, but of course it Voting in Congress is is a numbers game So we need we need more congressmen to support this bill these two bills actually I Pleased to know what are those two bills? Thank you, butch and good good luck to you. I've also heard about the the advocacy efforts in Australia I know that You know, so excuse me in South Africa We also look to what's going on in Australia with quite a bit of interest sort of policymakers Interestingly enough, I've also heard that the Australian policymakers are looking at South Africa and that's because Australians Africa got very similar legal systems and very similar legal Origins, especially when it comes to copyright law. We've both Got a copyright law based in British copyright law And so reforms in one country are sort of seen as very similar to evidence to reform in our Other country like that. Yeah, they'll have similar legal discussions Yeah, actually for the Philippines. We we did it We our copyright laws is actually copied from the United States a lot of Landmines that we encounter when we're uploading work So a good thing that there are volunteers who write to the IP office in the Philippines Proposing changes to the law and good thing that the IP office actually in the Philippines is supporting our our advocacy efforts It's it's up to the congressman actually to listen to us Yeah, yeah, absolutely I just saw Mike's Mike's made a humorous comment Did someone forget to copyright the copyright law so they couldn't be copied? I Believe it or not that that is covered By yes, that's right. Actually the law usually can't be copyrighted as Jacob points out Which is quite quite humorous? I know I know of a project in South Africa that one of our Partner partner organizations open up worked on about a year or two ago where they were digitizing all of the government gazettes So the government law is right what government is publishing and they'll public and they were digitizing that unmask And that that they're the copyrights just not something that they needed to worry about because that's exempt from the African law Switzerland there is a federal exception for copyright on law texts and things like minutes of meetings. Oh interesting Yes, that makes sense. Yeah, they generally Governments are not very concerned about copyright and material So African government interesting enough I can't speak for all governments when it comes to photographs Is very sensitive about? Their content being useful commercial purposes I know that the American government and the Russian government Actually just release all of their as much of their content as possible under an open license to encourage Public benefit use of their material And that's that's something that we advocate for as well. It certainly has Africa the saffron government adopt that a more open License so that we can start using South African government photographs on Wikipedia Because at the moment the NC license as I mentioned the beginning prevents us from doing that so way too many so She got another comment here in Switzerland there is a federal theft. Yep, that's right way too many Swiss on Wikimedia Commons misuse the template for this exception to upload other works by their government interesting interesting I can see that happening Joseph adds a we do we have data of country that observe this co-law? This is copyright law. I Don't know of any data sort of mapping How different governments regard their own copyright and there will be a good project actually to engage and to avoid confusion Mapping differences in copyright law is something that we as community the Wikipedia community would certainly Benefit from greatly because Wikipedia is a complicated issue and it's made exponentially more complicated By the fact that different countries have often very different laws when it comes to copyright and Mapping there is differences Would help clarify things Something that's already really complicated. So that's something I advocate for I see that we are I think we are out of time, but I'm happy to go on and Let people stay up whoever's interested But I do sort of one let other people know that the rest of the Wikimedia program is is now going to proceed But I will stay on and chat with anyone who wants to stay Joseph oh, yeah