 I get fired up thinking like how much more awesome could everybody's day be if the people who are in charge of your day just had a little more power and were like a little more invested in what you're doing. It didn't feel like a shameful cost center all the time. I just don't think it should be this hard to make a great place to work. I just, I think people can be thoughtful about it. I think people in this industry, you know, HR people want to do this stuff for their teams. They just haven't really been empowered because this industry comes from like, you know, 30 years ago you bought health insurance and you made sure that the company didn't get sued. Those were like the two primary functions of HR. I believe the world wants this to go in the other direction. This is Startup to Storefront. Today's guest is Alexa Baggio, co-founder of Perks. As you just heard, Alexa is pretty passionate about transforming today's workplace environment with both employers and employees alike. She really lights up when she talks about all the things that an employer can do to make their employees working like a more stress-free experience. It used to be that you'd devote your entire career to one company, and in return they take care of you in your retirement with a pension. Now that pensions have gone the way of the dodo, Alexa is helping to usher in a new era, one in which companies look after the well-being of their employees in any number of customizable ways. So listen in as we cover everything from what keeps Alexa up at night, the importance of knowing your employees' goals, and why she asks employers what sucks about your employee's day. Now back to the episode. Welcome to the podcast. We're here in Cambridge, Massachusetts with Alexa Baggio, founder of Perks. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, guys. Welcome to my abode. What is Perks? Yeah, no, we're in a super cool loft right here in Cambridge. I love it. Yeah, thank you. Tell us about Perks. So Perks is a brand that we started in 2015, basically in response to, I was previously the co-founder of a business called 2020 On-Site, which does on-site optometry at the office. So trying to bring eye care, preventative eye care to employers. That's awesome. Yeah, it was super cool. They're still around. They're a great company. Why'd you leave? It was just time to move on. It was time for a new opportunity, and actually Perks was my side business. So I had started 2020 with some others in like 2015, and was trying to get the word out about this cool preventative healthcare business that just costs free to the employer and paid for by your insurance. You could buy all these cool glasses, and I would go to the traditional HR marketing channels to try to get businesses to say, yeah, if you build this truck with all this cool equipment and retrofit it for my employees, I'll let them come downstairs and use it. And I was just met with a lot of resistance, and I didn't come from the HR world. I also didn't have an optical background, and I was like, I don't understand why people don't want a cool free offering for their employees. This is an easy win for everybody. And was just trying to go through some of the traditional channels, and it wasn't working. And I was like, okay, it's clear that no one is having a conversation around these kinds of benefits. Like if you want to talk about healthcare, and you want to talk about short term disability, and you want to talk about long term, all the really sexy stuff, there's lots of places to go do that, lots of people that will give you advice. But it was clear, and again, this was in 2015, that people weren't really having a conversation around additional benefits and what we call perks. Were you just blowing their minds with the concept? Was it something like the optometry on site was so extra? I think it was still a little early in that they were like, what is this thing? Like, wait a minute, you have a 38 foot RV. And this is mainly in Boston on the East Coast. This started in Boston, yeah, started in Boston. Because I was thinking, in San Francisco, kind of common, right? A little bit more accepted. Yeah, a little more, yeah. And it was all around the idea that like, there's a capacity issue, right? So people don't get preventative care because to do it, you got to book three months out and you've got to go and you've got to half a day off work. And the shame of taking that day off work. The shame of taking that day off work, yeah. And you were driving around in a 38 foot RV, you said? Yes, sir. Were you personally driving? Well, I didn't drive them every day. But when we started, I would, yeah, I designed them. I retrofitted them. And yeah, and then they have drivers and managers and stuff now. But yeah, early days, yeah, I was in the RV all the time. What was the retrofitting like? All that optical equipment probably didn't come cheap, right? No, it's not. It's and it's all state of the art because it's got to be very small. It's got to be very portable. So they invested in like the best of the best equipment and still are to make it sort of portable. And now they have an in-office option and they've got kind of like a different fleet of products. But we just met with this like, what, what, what are you talking about? Are you trying to sell me something? No, I'm good. Thanks. And I was like, no, I'm not trying to sell you anything. I'm trying to give your employees health care. And so I was like, we got to change the conversation. So my partner at the time and I, he was also an employee, Perks Vendor and Saliz. He's the CEO of a group called Leanbox that does cool, like connected break room solutions. And at the time, they were sort of had a free to employer model and we met at one of these, these HR events and we were just sitting there like, I was like, this is broken, you know, and I had, I had been in retail before and done some other stuff. And so I was like, why doesn't this industry have a trade show where you can like come discover what's new and cool? So why don't we try to flip this on its head? We'll bring these, these employers to us. We'll show them that this can be fun and interactive. We'll, we'll have a DJ. We'll like have food and booze. Like we'll make it like a party because there's nothing like that in this industry. Everything's like very prim and proper. And we tested it here in Cambridge at a space that doesn't exist anymore called the, it's a new version of it, the Microsoft nerd center. And we had like 24 little tabletop exhibitors and we'd like 400 people come. And so we were like, oh, I guess people are super interested in like finding out what's possible for their employee experience when you set it up, was it free for them? Or did they? It was not free for the brands. The brands had to pay to be showcased. But I believe our first couple of years, it was, it was free to attend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But like it was, we call it B2B2C, which is like you go to the employer to ultimately sell to the employee. Yeah. And that just didn't really exist then. Right. And that's, that's really what we are now is we're like the preeminent B2B2C marketplace. Was that the first time you had had an event like that? Yeah. And that gave you a window into what these conferences can do. Yeah, totally. Totally. And it's interesting because there's a lot of different conference models and we are very much the trade show expo model. But there was just, you know, I always say like this industry didn't really exist 10 or 15 years ago. And now it's like, I must talk to a new brand every, every couple of days that's popped into the like, I've got something to improve the employee experience. I've got, you know, I've got something I think employers will really like that's high visibility. That's, you know, low cost, you know, easy utilization. Like it's just a whole, it's a, it's a whole industry that just didn't exist a decade ago. And so we, we showcase those brands, but yeah, it's, it's a, the trade show industry is an interesting industry. Yeah, I never thought I would be doing this. That is for sure. It's amazing that, that you had 400 people show up and, and you know, that was a window into your onto something here. But what was educating the market like, you know, you said you were the first B2B2C company out there. Like what, what was the, the feedback that you were getting from people as you were trying to explain this new concept? Yeah. I mean, to be fair, I think we're actually still educating the market in a way. You know, I think there's a misconception about what perks are, but it was interesting because, you know, in the first year, it's really easy to be like, okay, these are the diehards. Like these are the, these are the early adopters that are like just, and especially we're, you know, we're in Cambridge. So there's every biotech tech, you know, firm in this area is competing with the firm across the street. And so we were like, well, maybe this is an anomaly. Maybe this is just happening because, you know, Sanofi is fighting with Pfizer across the street for employees. And if you pay a developer $150,000 a year to do this here, they can easily walk across the street, do the same thing with the same amount of money. So why are they going to come to your company? So we were like, maybe it's just where we are. Maybe it's kind of an anomaly. And it turns out that that's not the case. And I think it's part of this larger trend, which we can talk more about, but I think people are really starting to move into this idea of an employee experience. And, you know, especially I'm, you know, I'm a millennial, I'm assuming you guys are millennials are close like. One of us. The expectation is like, okay, if you're going to pay, you know, part of working is you pay me for my time, but part of working is also now, like what's the lifestyle that you afford me or that you expect of me. Um, and the landscape for how employees are discovering that has totally changed. So, you know, now every single employer has listed on their public website. Here's the benefits we offer. Here's our, here's our time off policy. Here's what we do for maternity. Uh, that was not the case 10 years ago. People did not publicize that as like, uh, hey, here's why you should work here. And now it's everywhere. Same thing with Glassdoor. That was like not a real phenomenon. And now, you know, I always say you can, you can first and foremost Glassdoor someone before you even interview them and or interview there. And then the first thing you do is you, you go on LinkedIn and you find the three friends that work there and you go like, Hey, I'm interviewing at such and such. Like, what did you think or why aren't you there? What do I need to know? And so it's just totally changed the landscape. It's like buying an Amazon product or something. Yeah, I remember with Glassdoor, when we were even fundraising, our investors also look at it. That was like a big thing they looked at even before giving money. And so we would just doctor it, frankly, yeah, for being candid. We were just like, everyone's going on and we're all five starring this. And these reviews need to be two paragraphs. Yeah, it's, I mean, it's the yelp of, of employing, but, you know, which, which has its downfalls, but, um, that's just, that's the world we're in today as it's just very transparent. So now people are leading with these things. And, you know, I'll be honest, I think the other thing that's changed that we've had to educate a lot of people on is first of all perks are not just like massages and manicures at the office. Those are cute and those are nice, but when they're great at the appropriate time, but there's also stuff that will like help you save money and network with your health insurance and, you know, help you reduce your like diabetic statistics and make you healthier, make mental health. Like there's a lot of different stuff that, you know, fertility benefits. Like that's not a thing that existed three years ago. That's so true. I'm thinking like when we were in San Francisco, so obviously we're competing with like LinkedIn and Google and Twitter for engineers and talent. Yeah, it's impossible. As a startup, it was like, what are we doing? And food always came up. People would always ask, do you guys provide food? And we're a startup. And so we had we had to end up doing like a meal delivery service. Tons of those people were just picking their next company based on the you know, all these guys give me free lunch. Yeah. Yeah. But that matters. There's a point at which, and this is another thing that we try to educate on though, not not a cheap, but imagine giving everyone in that room like a fifteen thousand dollar raise every year. That's way that's way more expensive than buying them lunch. Sure. So that's the thing that I think employers are finally realizing that we've done a lot of work is like not only are these not just these like cutesy frivolous services, they're really highly visible services to your employees. And there is a breaking point at which just paying someone more money isn't going to solve the lifestyle problem. So my sister is a perfect example. She works at an industrial distribution company in LA, makes a really, really good living. She's been there for a really long time. Company does a great job of, you know, they do promotions, they do like she's just constantly on a trajectory. And so she's been there for like seven years. But she has personally said to me, I would give up like 10 or $20,000 of my salary to have like healthy food options and a gym on site because they're in a warehouse in East LA. And so that's like those are two things that are just really hard for her to deal with every day when she's busy. And, you know, she's a manager for them. And so she's like, I'd give it up. And I'm like, if they only knew what what how much how much they would save to pay these guys twenty thousand dollars less a year and give them a cafeteria and a gym. What's interesting to me about the perks and benefits packages is that if you probably go to even our parents generation, this was not like salary was everything and and now quality of life is just as important and then some. So and I think, you know, I don't think it was healthcare. Right. So it was salaries everything. Right. And then it became salary and what what benefits do I get in the traditional sense of benefits like healthcare, you know, 401ks, etc. And the reality is like, that's not a differentiator anymore. Unless you have preexisting issues or like kind of a health care is like a really important part of your life. For the most part, the options that an employer can provide to you are largely out of your hands. You get two options. One's usually a high deductible. One's usually, you know, a higher premium. And you don't have too much say outside of that. And and employer to employer, depending on the company size, etc. Unless you're going from a five person company to a five hundred person company, there's not a whole lot of differentiation and you don't have any control over it. So, you know, yes, you you provide health care and all those things, but people don't go, oh, I'm going to go work at this company because they have the best health care. Like that's that's rarely the discussion anymore. And it used to be a much bigger deal when employer sponsored health care was not not such a sort of, you know, staple of life and not mandated and all these things. And so now it's just it's just not a differentiator. Doesn't you have to have it? And people are making choices because of it. What size companies do you do you like are you focused on working with? Are they small? Are they large? Are they all? So we work with anybody who's interested in hooking up their employees and like we don't discriminate, I would say mostly our our companies that attend the shows are like middle market businesses. So there are a couple hundred employees. They've got someone in charge of the experience. They've got a little budget for it up to, I mean, Facebook's global head of amenities was at our show last year. So I think these guys are all looking for like what's new, what's possible, what's affordable. And we're making that accessible for them. But we don't five, 10,000 employees. I would say that's like the bell curve is like couple hundred to like five, 10,000. But we get some of the behemoths. What kind of perks are you are you offering so that that someone like me would find like so different. So like the 2020 thing is so different, I would say. Yeah, you can do that for dentistry. You can do that. They have they have male fertility benefits, female fertility benefits, all kinds of fitness benefits, all kinds of like team bonding benefits, there's coaching, there's personal development benefits. Like you name it, you can probably get it for your team at this point. And every, like I said, every week, like male male fertility was not a thing until like a year and a half ago when two two groups popped on the scene and now because everyone is having this required family medical leave act response, everyone's going and I forget the state, but they just implemented mandatory IVF treatments. You have to you have to cover IVF treatments in your health care plan for employees. It was California, California, New York. People go, OK, but I'm I'm a gay male who's 41 who I don't get I want I want a family. I want a family. Like what are you doing for me? And so it's that conversation has has not only gone from like, OK, maternity benefits. What are we doing to like now we got to have a holistic approach to family planning? And again, why does the why is this the employer in charge of this? Because the employer is the one asking you to do stuff all day and be there all day. And so they're in a way stewards of your lifestyle. Is that the hardest part for like that recognition to exist? What do you mean? So the recognition of the employer to realize that they are quite literally setting the direction for their employees. Yeah. And some of it is it's human, right? And so there are two types of CEOs that I've met. Some people are super people centric. Yeah. And then there's the other CEO who puts people secondary. Right. And that bleeds through. Yeah. At some point, usually around 50 employees. Yeah. It's kind of like, no, we're here seven to six or seven to seven. Yeah. And if you're not in your chair. Yeah. Face time. There's shame. There's a little shame in the air. Right. And so that sort of starts to bleed through. Yeah. Is that what you're up against? Or do you think it's, you know, like at some point, are you changing culture? Are you changing the human experience? Or do you think that you're just you're bringing in these perks to them? And ideally, the light bulb goes off and they go. So the nice thing about our model is they come to us. So they come to the show ostensibly because they have some level of interest in this, right? And maybe they come and they're like, oh, we can't do any of this or our CEO never buy into this. But for the most part, they're coming with an active level of engagement or they wouldn't be there. That is the one nice thing about a B2B business is you sort of get a very engaged buyer. Yeah. And we're very transparent about what our shows are. Like you are there to shop for stuff for your team. And so I think that helps. I do think we are up against so everything's on a scale, right? And so for the last few years, we've had all these companies that are like, we get it, it's hot, you know, following sort of the Googleization of the workplace. And but like I, we haven't done our job until we've got the 300 person manufacturing company in, you know, wall fam knocking on our door being like, what can I do for my shift employees? And like, how can I provide this for them? So when we get to that point, and we get to the suburban, you know, manufacturing or finance professional services firm that's traditionally like not really invested in any of this stuff to say like, it's time, then we've really sort of captured, I think the the essence of the market but it's, it's a lot of like, the people in charge of these decisions aren't empowered. And that goes back to a little bit of our pre conversation is like, 10 years ago, this didn't exist, right? People weren't buying this stuff for their employees, employee services, employee experience, not a thing. So what happens is, all of a sudden you get the Googleization of the workplace stuff starts to be more transparent, you get glass door, great. Now all of a sudden, you've got all these services that want to sell into employers. But you've got nobody internally who's in charge of that process. So, so HR, because they're selfless people just takes on that role. So people go like, Oh, it's not the sales guys, it's not the engineers, it's not the marketing team. I got to talk to HR. And so HR wasn't, they weren't buyers 10 years ago, they didn't, they didn't buy services other than health insurance, which they have brokers and a whole network of professionals to help them do. So they're this like new type of person that didn't exist. And so now the role is shifting, I think to empower those people to actually make experience purchases for their team, that's a much bigger hill to climb. But I think that's been the hardest thing is like, you're just up against people who may want it for their team, but the infrastructure of a standard company, HR team and budget and CFO process just doesn't always support right easy decisions like, Oh, we can just feed you lunch every Friday. And all of a sudden, I don't have to give you a raise for $10,000 a year, because you're just going to use it getting food delivered to the office anyway. So it's there's still a bit of a lag in terms of the apparatus that is corporate corporate HR and corporate buying cycles that hasn't quite caught up with, I think one, just modern lifestyles and how visible and transparent everything is. And two, just it's not it's not broken down enough to sort of give way to this like new way of doing things, which is like, it's it's okay to treat your employees well. And you can spend money on these services responsibly and not, you know, totally eat your margins. And yeah, you know, it's just a different way of thinking and people are starting the nut is starting to crack. But yeah, we got a ways to go. How do you how do you monetize your company? So how do you make money? What is it that your package? What's the what's the total offering? So our I mean, the easiest way to think of it is we're a pop up marketplace, right? So we pay our brands pay us for exposure to these HR buyers into the corporate community. And we there also are so we have two customers, right? We're a marketplace. And so the HR people, people ops people are attending our shows to come get first and foremost just like knowledge about how to do this stuff. What is it how to elevate the conversation, but then also discover these brands and, you know, have a good time. So they pay us for that. Brands, we're really, you know, they're really paying us for exposure. And we, you know, we do some work to help them figure out how to, you know, some of these guys are startups and they've never been in the employer market before. So we'll help them figure out how to, you know, monetize or structure their product or whatever. But most of what we do for perks is the show. Okay. And then our other brand, the people ops society is a membership organization. And did you bootstrap this or did you raise money? Are you? Yeah, so no, so we bootstrapped it from the jump. Like I said, this was a side hustle. Sure. Yeah. And we were like, yeah, we were selfishly using it just like we need exposure for our own brands and just kept kept getting bigger. And then it was like there was a point at which it was like, okay, to do this, someone's got to go full time. But we bootstrapped it from the beginning and we now have just one friends and family investor. Okay, mostly, you know, shows are capital intensive. So it's kind of like a working capital situation. Yeah. But yeah, for the most part, we're, we're self funded and we're growing. That's great. Yeah, we've grown five X in a year. And we've got big plans to do it again this year. Yeah, will you raise more money or will you just continue to try to boot strap it and keep everything in house? So the trade show and if, if we hit our goals this year, we'll, we'll be totally fine. And that'll be like a lovely, lovely, nice little cash flowing business. The people of society is something that depending on how quickly we want to grow after we launch, it's possible we could try to raise, raise money. Okay. I don't know if that's VC money or if we just don't know enough yet to, to know what we would need, but it's possible. What made you want to move into this direction? So what makes you so passionate about, about people in the workplace? So I've worked in some bad workplaces. I've seen cultures go from great to terrible. But mostly I think, you know, we were talking about everything's human. And it just seems like an industry that is literally got the word human in its name has gotten so far away in policy and practice from being human and treating people's like treating people like humans that I get fired up thinking like how much more awesome could everybody's day be if the people who are in charge of your day just had a little more power and we're like a little more invested in what you're doing. It didn't feel like a shameful cost center all the time. I just don't think it should be this hard to make a great place to work. I just I think people can be thoughtful about it. I think people in this industry, you know, HR people want to do this stuff for their teams. They just haven't really been empowered because this industry comes from like, you know, 30 years ago, you bought health insurance and you made sure that the company didn't get sued. Those were like the two primary functions of HR. And that's a very external protective company lens. And so I am, I believe the world wants this to go in the other direction, which is like my function as a people ops professional is to focus on the internal employee experience. My whole job is to look internally at the company. And that's just an axes change that that didn't it just didn't exist a decade ago. So that's what gets me fired up is like, we can like, we can make this industry cool. We can empower these people like, and they're great people, people coming into the people ops community now are like, they're the ones that are like, yeah, it's time to change. Like it's time for us to be awesome and be on the stage with the CEO and be their right hand. And I can appreciate that about what you're saying. I mean, I think it's it's awesome. First of all, that you're so passionate about that. From my side of it, I almost go the complete opposite way. And so when we have friends that complain about their jobs, I always just go to like quit because they're never going to fix it. Right. And I know this is controversial. Yeah, my mind goes to you're miserable. You've been telling me for two months. I'm done listening. Let me borrow your phone. I'm not a proponent of you should just keep people to keep people. And I just say quit your job, quit your problem. You want to go to the gym, you want to eat healthy, simple, put it in your own hands. Right. That's a very cavalier attitude that I happen to personally like, but I get that there are not people that that sits with. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, they're very upset with me. But I think they I'm being honest with them. But I like your approach because it's kind of like solve it from the other side. Yeah. If these people, if you can make them happy, then they wouldn't feel so miserable. And it's not. So look, you're what an average millennial stays on a job for like two and a half years. Right. Okay, that's cool. Yeah. Yes, there may be a rate of there may be an expense to the company for turnover. But if you can solve for that turnover being effective and predictable and human, it's a less expensive proposition. Right. Because if you if you know that an employee took a job and 18 months into it, it's not a fit. They don't like their team. They're not performing well. It's in your best interest to nicely get that person out the door because they're not productive. They're sitting on the payroll, you know, miserable. And we all I mean, I've been in a job where I'm miserable and you're just not, you don't perform well, you, you talk to your employee to your colleagues, like it's just like nothing about it is productive and healthy. So like it behooves you to know that and be okay with it and then put that person in on a track to get out of there, but also keep your business as a positive in their brain, right? Just like supporting people on maternity leave. It's like, why would you not do that? If they leave afterwards, great, they're going to be like, cool, your company just supported me while I had a child. I've nothing but nice things to say about you. It just I remember at startups too, I just I keep thinking about this. There was so much of some of it was cultural. And so if you have founders from different places, I remember having to talk to one of the guys about mental health issues because where he was from, he had never heard of such a thing. Birth control had never heard of such a thing. Oh, wow. And the problem is when we were picking the health plan that we were going to offer our employees, one covered birth control, one didn't one was more expensive, right? I think it was like Kaiser did and the other one didn't or something. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, we got to go with Kaiser and make sense. And I had to explain to him what that meant for probably two hours because there was just a complete lack. Why the insurance brokerage world is in business. There's a complete lack of awareness. Yeah. But it's tough too, right? If you've never dealt with the mental health issue, yeah, then you I don't want to say you dismiss it, but it's hard for you to believe what it you know, or that people will use it. So why are you paying for it? Supporting it. Yeah. Yes. It's tough. But I think there is a very natural appetite for people to learn how to just effectively take care of people. And it just it isn't this hard. Yeah. It's not it's not as hard as an expensive. And your HR team doesn't have to be the devil. Like it's not you just have to sit down and think about the whole human. And, you know, not to sound hoity-toity, but like people are people like think through the scenarios, play it out for them. I always tell people like companies will ask us like, oh, what, you know, what Percy recommend or what, you know, what should we be doing or what's like an easy win? And I'm like, what sucks about your employees day? Like what's just think about it? Stop. Take your cost hat off. Like take your HR. What sucks about working here? Like, oh, our employees commute on average 48 minutes each way in traffic. Like, so OK, so let's play that out. They wake up every morning and they get in the car and they're stressed out for the first 48 minutes of their day because they have to come to your office. So they're cursing you for the first 48 minutes of their day. What are you doing to help them? Are you providing any commuter benefits? Are you providing any corporate shuttles? Are you giving them a flexible work from home policy? What are you doing to combat the fact that the first 48 and the last 48 minutes of their day sucks? And then they go, oh, I guess I never thought about it like that. And it's like, yeah, so sit down and write that, right? Like, what are the things about working in this particular space or for this particular company or in this particular kind of work that sucks? The call centers got one. Oh, what can we do? They can never leave their desk. I'm like, you got to figure out a way that they can leave their desk, a human that sits on the phone for eight hours with two 15 minute breaks is going to get miserable. Yeah, it's going to happen. What's your figure it out? What is your perfect work environment? Like for you personally, for me personally, you could draft, you could design it, people listening, you're looking at it, except I would put a door on my office. Okay, door, but in terms of perks like certain coffee, the gym, the food, what is what does the entirety look like? Yeah, I'm a big coffee person. I drink coffee and aggressive. So there would definitely be coffee, probably healthy food options. I have days like today where I literally haven't eaten yet. And so, you know, and I was like, I'm not, I'm not going to stop at the rest stop on my way back from this meeting. I'm not going to do that. I think it's some basic stuff like that. My boyfriend has his gym paid for. Okay, that would be pretty sweet. And I also think it's things like investing in it. Again, it's all I work from home, we're a super small team. But things like investing in people's environment, whatever that is. So, you know, we claim to be quasi experts on their remote working because our whole team is remote. Give people a couple, you know, a couple bucks, some sort of allowance to like set that up for themselves, make, you know, make sure they have what they need to be productive. And I also think just like, a lot of it is cultural and a lot of it is expectations of your team, but also just like, I, if you need to take two hours out of your day to go do some errand that's like stressing you out or, you know, your wife's going to get mad at you because you didn't do it and you forgot and it's two o'clock and it's like just go do it just like the ability to just you control your time, you control how you get this done. Obviously that's harder at a bigger scale. But I also think big companies make this hard because they think it's all about control and it's not it's about good managers who understand how to create how to give autonomy but also expect results. So I work very well in an autonomous environment. I work very well from home. My team comes and co works here once a week, if not more than that if we can, because a bunch of them are nearby. But yes, it's the ability to like run your own day. And if we were in an office, it would be like, I, you know, I have a physical fitness option either nearby or that comes to me that I can get to and, you know, I can, I can also take time off with my colleagues. Like we, you know, we go do stuff together. I think that's another thing people just like overthink. It's like, you just have to be humans. Like, I can't work with you well if I don't know why you're doing this. Like, I have to have context for why you do this. Right. And what is this job to you and people just they just make it harder than it needs to be. It's like, why is this person doing this job right now? Like what part of their ego does it fuel? What part of their family life does it fuel? Is it on? Is it a stepping stone to a bigger goal? Like, what does this person want? Like I've had employees that are like, I don't want anything more than a nine to five and a kind of altruistic scenario that makes me feel good. I'm not trying to run the world. And I've had other employees be like, I'm just trying to climb the ladder as fast as I can and get the biggest title I can as fast as possible, because I want the validation. Like those are two totally different employees. You have to treat them differently. And the roles they're going to fit into are different. And people just I get fired up because people overthink that. You set that expectation up front with them with your employees? Like do you try to get that out during the interview process? Which part? The what's what's the what's the motivation? What's the totally? Why are you doing this? Yeah, why are you in this? I know roughly the context for every one of my employees and why they why they're here, what they want, what's in it for them. And they're all different. They're all very different. It's a lot easier. Yeah. I mean, I don't they might think I'm a terrible boss. I don't know. But I think we have a pretty good squad and we all work really well together and everybody has their flexibility. And you know, they all have have family and children and some of them are new parents and some of them are, you know, 13, 14 year olds. And you just have to be, you know, I just can't I can't work with you. But I don't know why you're doing something. That's like a fundamental principle I have. You brought up Ray Dalio earlier with principles. I did. As you think about the next decade, right? And so there's some planning, I'm sure you think about where is my company going? How much of Ray Dalio's principles do you implore there where it's like this is where I want to go. And then you sit down with yourself and say is that big enough? Oh, I don't know that I've I read the book. I don't know that I've done all the exercises in such depth. That is something that I have been challenged personally with the last six months, probably the most I've ever been challenged in my life. Okay. And in starting the PeopleOp society, which we're launching, that has been this like sort of key mantra is like, wait a minute, that's not big enough. Wait a minute, there's a much bigger opportunity here. And so I get fired up like, oh, we're going to change the face of HR, we're going to make it cool again. And it's like, no, we're actually just gonna like fundamentally affect the way everyone views work and how they view each other at work. And we're going to make it a positive thing and make it easy to make it a positive thing. And what that turns into from a business model perspective will find out some of that you can play on some of that you can't, you know, and I'm also not a, you know, I'm not Adam Neumann over here pretending I'm going to change the world with pretty co-working spaces like, I also try to be pretty grounded about this stuff. But it is crazy if you play out some of these ideas, like, just think like the story I told you earlier. So I have a good friend who works at a big tech company in San Francisco. And I told her a little bit about what she'd do. And her first response was, oh, man, our people team sucks. And I was like, this breaks my heart. Like those should be the coolest people in your office. They should know everybody, everybody should love them. They should feel like they have the autonomy and the resources to help people to move people on from the company. Like, and that just that's not it. And so you go like, okay, if we could change just that one thing for 90% of businesses across the country, that's that would be awesome. That would be definitely worth getting up every day to do. Do you think it's hard because some of these teams have their own culture? And so within companies, you have their own teams, like the dev team will have their culture. So totally. And just to be fair, I think people it's kind of like, you know, what can the president really do? Like the HR team can't control the internal culture of the five engineers that that, you know, are the scrum masters or whatever. There's like, there's culture, there's sort of metaculture. And then there's microculture. And a lot of that has to do with hiring practices. A lot of that has to do with vetting for fit, vetting for, for cultural fit. But that's stuff that they can affect on some level, just from a process perspective. And I don't think they're given great tools to do it, to be honest. And I think some, some companies just like just hire somebody, we need somebody now. And then you get the people that are like only hire amazing people. It's like, okay, that's nice too. But that's not always possible. Because I need, I need someone to work on this in two weeks. So just finding ways that like quick hacks that it's like, okay, if we're hiring someone in two weeks, the most important thing is that the skill set fits them. And if this is a role that, you know, we're going to need this person on this project for a while, like that this project fits with their personal goals and their career goals. Like that's just a thing people don't ask enough is like, why are you doing this job? Right? They used to hire, you know, we would hire like retail workers and people at 2020. And it would be like, okay, well, why, why do you want this job? Or what, what is this going to do for you in 10 years? Like what do you want to do in 10 years? And people was I had one girl be like, I want to run a chain of restaurants. And I was like, I don't know how this is going to help you on your stage to if that's really what you want. This is not a great fit for you, because I can't get you there. So you're going to figure that out in 18 months and be like, this is a paycheck. I don't like this. This is a waste of my time. And I'm going to lose you. Yeah. So like, this isn't an 18 month job, I'm hiring someone for three years, like at least. And so you just people just don't go through those cycles. And they're not candid enough. They're not yet. It's tough. It's tough to be honest with people. I know. And HR has become this like, oh, you got to sit in the no, you're not you're not compliance. You're not you're not like the fun police. You're like, you're supposed to be the person that's like, let's make sure in this interview, this team gets what they need out of this candidate. How many people do you have that work for you now? I have four full time employees. And what what are the roles of the four? So we have my VP of operations who's just sort of my right hand and everything. I always joke that I steer she she pedals. And then we have our head of Biz Dev, who works with all our brands for the trade shows. Okay. And then we have Joanna, who is our director of research and special projects. So she is working on all the stuff that's resources to support the people ops community. So things like remote worker playbooks and what, you know, how do you how do you share a template for, you know, maternity leave from a company without the person who shared it getting in trouble. So just doing and then doing all our survey and brand research for perks. So it's so interesting. Yeah, it was your first hire. My first hire was Kader VP of ops. Yeah. Yeah, there's no there's no playbook on any of this right now is there. We're making it up as we go. We literally we used to say at I think it was 2020 it was like we're building the building the road while we're in the car, play in the track while we're all the cars moving. Yeah. It's an industry that's I hate to say the D word, but it's definitely ripe for disruption. And there's lots of brands that are trying there's a lot of cool stuff coming out, but it's we're sort of on a mission to just like empower these professionals specifically to be a move this whole profession forward. What do you think about your company? Do you ever think like the it's so interesting because it's so easy to have revenue goals, right? The revenue goals are super important. Obviously, you got to pay people. You got to keep the lights on. But as a party, you like, fuck it, we'll just make it people goals. And if the people are happy, the revenue will showcase itself through right? Do you ever think about it like that? Totally. I think you have to toggle between those things. I actually just had a really interesting conversation with the guys, the CEO for work tango, which is like an engagement software in Toronto. He calls himself the chief engagement officer, which was like, Okay, a little bit like office ninja, but yeah, okay. Right. But he's a really forward thinking guy in that it's like, it's just about getting my people to engage the way that they want to engage with this and to make things happen. And if I can do that, the rest of this will take care of itself. That's also nice to be a SaaS business because you can get SaaS multiples. But yeah, I think I think you have to think about that. I like you can't if you just focus on revenue, you become the many stories everybody's heard of these like crazy megalomaniac or like it doesn't matter just make money. And it's like, I don't I'm not running a business just to make money. Like it's about building something that's meaningful and building a team. Like I'm in charge of three families now, you know, those people rely on this income and that we impact their they spend every day with us like that matters. What is that like for you? It's not about us. It's you know, it's about these guys. Do you like that? Is that terrifying? It's both. Yeah. I like it because I really like our team and I love what we're building. But I'm also like, Oh God, I better not screw this up. You know, I got three families that are, you know, relying on this now and they're all awesome people and they're all highly adaptable. But it's yeah, you can't you can't just think about it's not fun if you do it that way. Yeah. Right. Like I'd rather make a little less money next year. But like the teams doing really well and everybody's like, you know, we spend a little money to get everybody together more often. And you know, I just bought picked up some cool holiday gifts. Like, you know, it's worth it's worth investing in that stuff. But if you're just focused on the numbers and the margin, like you're going to lose some of that. Yeah. So that's your version of I would take $20,000 less. Only this happened. Yeah. And I get that not everybody is that flexible. I also get that not everybody is in a business where the margins allow for that. But I think people are not empowering their teams to like be creative about how to take care of their people. And it's like very disheartening. What are the things that keep you up at night? Besides keeping the lights on. Yeah. Besides the day to day, the families. Yeah. I don't want to give the generic like, oh, what about a recession? Because I actually think we'll be fine if that happens. The things that keep me up at night are like, is my team happy? Like, you know, I don't we don't we're a small team and we do a lot. We have big goals. We, you know, we five X in the last year. We'll five X again this year. Like that's not a small and it's always changing. Right. I mean, you guys have done startups like you just you got to kind of wing it, but also like always be putting as much in as you can. I always joke that it's like constantly being in finals week. Yeah. Like, you know, you should study, but tonight you're not going to because it's Monday and the finals not till Thursday. So you're going to go out tonight and have fun. But the whole time, you're like, I should be at the library and this is going to make Wednesday night really suck. And that's the pressure you feel constantly. So I worry that they're, you know, that they're having fun. We're small and, you know, we're still a startup. So we, you know, we can have a bunch of like flashy extra, you know, extra stuff. And, you know, we don't pay Google level salaries and all that jazz yet, although we give everybody everybody equity. So it's it's it's a constant, just like keeping your eye on the ball. That and sometimes I worry that we that we're taking on too much, you know, you don't want to you don't want to spread yourself too thin and don't want to be jack of all trades and master of none. But yeah, sometimes you have to do that. So that's the stuff that keeps me up is like, are we doing too much? Are we not investing in the right places? And is my team happy? Yeah, the focus on yield and where it's going to come from. Yeah. So difficult. And are we spreading ourselves to like we're trying a lot of stuff this year, like we're launching a new new brand where we're adding products for our brands to teach them sort of more about how to sell into HR. Like we're adding products and brands and some of it's going to work and some of it's not going to work. And so, you know, just making sure that we're not spending a bunch of time and energy and resources on stuff that we're not sure if it's going to work. And then we find out that it doesn't. We've invested all this time and energy and we've lost out on something else. So I don't I think those are fairly common sort of business problems in general. But sure. Yeah, when you're small and you're growing super quick, it's just like the machine's always shaking a little. Yeah. You mentioned a while ago that the average millennial typically stays at a company for two and a half years. Don't quote me on that actual. It's something like that. Yeah. Do you have any idea, though, if the right benefits package helps increase that statistic at all? Yeah, there's a lot of statistics. Willis Towers, Watson, Gallup, a bunch of these guys have done surveys on this at this point that and you know, statistics are what you want them to be. But there's definitely a fair amount of research that we've seen that that says, again, I think because of this tipping point concept where it's like eventually $30,000 a year more or $5,000 or $10,000 doesn't change the fact that I can't get to the gym every day because you you drive me like a slave driver or you you know, the office is in some random suburb not anywhere near one of these locations. You know, so I think the tipping point is just becoming more obvious to people. And there's an expectation like gone are the days of like you can just do nothing for your employees and get away with it. There's all employees, especially our age, especially in you know, urbanly dense areas like this come with a set of expectations, like why don't you have coffee in the office? Why don't you give me lunch? Right. Right. And if you're not giving me lunch, what are you doing instead? Like what do you what do I get? Yeah. You know, what's my what's my expected lifestyle with you? The one thing I'm also curious about is, have you found that childcare office childcare is a big deal breaker for some people? I think so. Yeah, it's also now a very easy benefit to provide for employees, which is really cool to see and has been for for quite a while. There's care.com, which is the easy one, they have a corporate program. But there's there's lots of other ones that have popped up. The one that is also new on the scene that I think is is a big one is just sort of familial care in general. So caring for elderly parents is like a big issue for people that is now hitting all the baby boomers like hospice care. Yeah, hospice care or just like dementia care or in home care for an aging parent. I would never associate that with a benefits package. Yep, that's that's like a big thing that people like need to be aware is available to provide to their employees because if you have a big baby boomer population, they're all leaving the office and claiming sick days because like dad doesn't know where he is today, right? Or just the cost of putting them into a nursing home or a memory center or whatever is like astronomical these days. So some level of support for that goes a long way. Same thing with any, yeah, any kind of like disability, like a kid with a disability, like you know, being able to care for those people is it's a long term and you know, full time expense, right? So employers can contribute to that. But I also think you don't have to just contribute to like, oh, we pay for your childcare. It's like, no, we let you work from home three days a week. Or we have childcare at the office, like bright horizons or whatever. I mean, those places are astronomically expensive, too. But there's lots of creative ways to do it. You just have to know what your population needs. And some companies, they're big enough and have enough generations that like everybody needs something different. When you first started, I guess with your employee, what were what healthcare? What did you use to set it all up? Did you go to gusto? Yeah, we use gusto. We're big gusto people. Okay. I give them a healthcare stipend. So I contribute to their healthcare but because we're you let them choose. I let them choose. Yeah. Oh, that's nice. Yes. That makes it easier for them. Yeah. And the reality is like, I, you know, I purchase my personal healthcare on the health connector. So we're lucky to live in a state that has a decent healthcare system online where you can just go buy a private plan. Yeah. And so I just give them a stipend that covers the, you know, if they needed to buy a plan for themselves, they could cover it through the health connector. But most of them, their employers are sponsoring something. So they're using that to contribute to the premium. And do you worry about it at the beginning in terms of whether there's they'll stay or you're just kind of like, well, if I made, if I brought it here. So I think like one of the things that you've solved that maybe I know you understand this but for our listeners, you're super candid with people at the beginning. And so when you tell people like even in a relationship or even in the office, like this is what I want out of my life, does this align with you? You really don't hire the wrong person. Right. It's really straightforward at that point. Yeah. So by doing that, you set yourself up for success. You could eventually hire the wrong person if you don't continue to have that conversation. Right. Like if you have an employee leaving and it's a surprise, that's on you. Employee leaving is different. An employee leaving that's a surprise is a problem. Because you something was off that you weren't seeing or didn't listen to. So you have to have that company have to be candid throughout the conversation, I think. Yeah. You know, I've already had employees move roles and we're only a four person team. Because someone was in a role that was just fundamentally not the right fit. And I could see it. And it was super stressing them out. And I was like, something's got to give here. We got to we got to change this. And we had a very candid conversation about it. We're in a much better place. But you got to be a non going thing. Yeah, it's an ongoing thing. It's you can't take it for granted. Like, oh, you're this and you're here and you're good. I hire the right person. No questions asked. It's like, yeah, I hired the right person for right now with the things you told me in an interview. Yeah. Once you double the team side, it's like dating, right? It's like, you know, you were great. It was like, what does John Mercer, it's free movie weekend, you're like, giving everybody your best. And then a year in you're like, you're actually like a complete prick. You don't do that dishes, you know, you said you did dishes. Well, your team always be remote and then ideally close so you can have, I guess, onsites with everybody. Yeah, so I'm actually a huge believer in the remote work stuff, especially as a small business, it just makes a lot of sense. I think it's, you know, I always struggle to justify paying for office space when everyone I know who's going to we're going to pay to be at a we work is going to get coffee and a desk and Wi Fi, which is they have in the comfort of their own home, and they don't have to commute. There's all these stats coming out about how bad commuting is for people. So I'm a big believer in the remote workplace. I also love the idea of having eventually a place for people to come if we want to congregate. You know, that'll probably come at a later stage. I think people should have the ability to choose a bit too. I think there's for certain work. I think there's certain work that is super easy to do remote. I also think the world is catching up to what it means to work remotely effectively. I just did a quick video series on like remote work etiquette, and it was like, don't put your forehead like at the bottom of the screen. Like people are just like still learning the basics of what it means to be like not a jerk. Finger in your nose. Yeah. And like if the dog is barking behind you, like say it's you and then put yourself on mute. Like we're we're from a remote working perspective, still in like this stone age of what this culture is going to be funny. Like what's that? What's that the YouTube video where they they do the like in person version of a conference call? We're still there in a lot of regards, even though everyone's like, oh, I can just zoom you in this. It's like, yeah, cool. But if you're if you're in a noisy coffee shop, not on mute and this guy has a bad connection and it's unclear what the agenda is and everyone's looking at the documents at different times in different ways, it's not gonna be a very effective meeting. Yeah. So I think we have a long way to go in terms of how to actually work remotely effectively. So we try to do our best version of it and it works for us. What is your advice for people? I guess not starting their companies, but as they think about health care in a more meaningful way or just perks in general, what is your advice? Search, look for resources. Actually, go to your website. Yeah, go to our website perks.com. There's lots of stuff out there that I think people just like so we just we my favorite quote from one of our customers is the head of HR at GE health care here outside of Boston. He says, Alexa, like we can't wait to come back to your show. We're using four vendors that we discovered at your at your Boston trade show last year. And I said, oh, that's amazing. Like, why why do you think so many? And he's like, I just literally didn't know what to Google. Like you like you had like elder like parent health care or care care options like you just wouldn't think to be like, oh, can I Google that for my employees? And I always tell people now, like if you want it for your employees, if we don't know about it, we can there's someone who will do it for you. But I think for people, I think it's just back to the like what sucks about your employees day. And I also think people don't people say employee experience and they think that's what culture is. And I kind of hate the C word. I think it's overused and abused. But there's a lot of things that it takes to make an employee happy on all levels, right? They have to actually like the work they're doing. It has to be a fit for their skill set. They have to like the team they're doing it with. They have to feel like they're growing. They have to feel like the lifestyle you afford them is one that they're cool with, right? So if they're the ones that, you know, crack the keg at 5pm and, you know, the developers don't work 40 hours a day. That might be for them. And some people are like, no, I want to sit my head down and I want to work a lot. And I want to, you know, I want to build projects like this and you have to weed that stuff out. So I think just map like being realistic about what sucks and what it actually means to work there and the kind of work and then taking that and saying, what are the things that combat this is the easiest, but also the only way to do this effectively, right? Because if you're just like, oh, well, the guy across the street is on site massages. So we should do on site massages like, no, no, right? That's not the answer either. Again, lipstick on a pig. You have to sit down and talk about what it means for your employees for their day based on what you're asking them to do. And different kinds of work have different answers, you know, it's not one size fits all employees, I think too. I mean, some of the founders just choose like what they like like the massage. Like if they want a massage, you'll just get one for everybody. Yeah, or sometimes like the HR team will be like, well, that's not a problem for me. Like the number of times I would call people like, can I give preventative eye care to your which would like will find diseases and all like solve all these issues. If you do it effectively. Oh, I don't I don't got contact your glasses. Why would I do this? I'm like, what, what? Everybody, you're in charge of 500 employees. Why are we having a conversation about just you right now? Yeah. So you've got to remember like it's, you know, just and but also remember that they're human. So like they're a consumer also. So you got to like play both sides of it and just be honest about like, what are you asking people to do all day? Yeah, it's you know, I always tell people perks are the easiest win for a company, especially in a recession, because it's the easiest way to nod to your employees that you're paying attention and you see what sucks. Like you like, if you give them some sort of commuter benefit, because they're all sitting in traffic for 48 minutes every morning, they go like, Oh, they know this sucks. And they're doing something about it. I can't be mad at them for it. It's just like, well, I don't know why that's not the lens that people view this through. But I also think we've made it hard. Like it's not I think these benefits don't have to be hard to implement. They don't have to be expensive. They don't have to be utilized by everyone in your company to keep doing it. Yeah. You know, if you can get a 10 or 20% employee utilization on any service outside of healthcare, you're killing it. Like that's a lot of people, right? Effectively using a service. Yeah, we don't. I mean, our average, our average utilization rate for the brands we work with in their first three years with employers like 10 to 30%. And that's great. Yeah. It's a it's a good fact. Because that's one of every three of your employees using something you're providing. And I would think that's also not 100. Why does it have to be 100? It's also a paradigm shift, right? Because so many people think it's 100 has to be 100 or at least 70%. We used to have people when we were in 2020, it's a free service to the employer. It doesn't cost them anything to bring to bring the eye doctor to the office. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. Well, why don't you want to do it? Well, what if only six people show up? Six people got eye exams that otherwise would not have gotten my exams. Oh, but it but it wasn't a full day of 32. So I don't want to take the risk. It's just it's asked backwards to be like the flu shot like mandatory. Go go get your flu shot. Yeah. But again, the issue with that statement is not that that person doesn't want those six people to get an eye exam is that they're worried that the internal perception of their effort to try to help will be seen as a failure. If they did something that wasn't a hundred percent knocked out of the park. And it's like, if that's how you're supporting your people team, you're screwed. You're losing. Yeah, because they're never going to try anything. They're never going to take anything on. Like, you have to empower them to be like, cool, we did it and two people showed up. So we won't do it again. You know, this, you know, especially when it's financially risk free, like, why, why would you not give them the option? You know, and then your employees go, oh, we have eye exams at the office. That's cool. I'll come next time because I didn't know about it this time. Anyway, I love it. I could wax poetic about it Let's give us a window into where do you see perks from a year from now? So at the end of 2021, where are you guys at? How big is the company? End of 2021. Oh, OK. How big is the company? So if we do what we plan to do, we will be in six cities with the convention in 2020, we will be in probably eight to 10 by 2021. The people ops society will have thousands of members, that's for sure. Our team will probably be double the size at least. Yeah. And yeah, I think we'll be like in in this like paradigm shift, we'll be like trying to lead it. Yeah, we'll be trying to lead it. I can see that. Yeah, that's so exciting. Thank you. I mean, the mission is clear, right? And I think that every day you're just executing that mission. And it's working. Yeah, it's working. You're like, you see, you see the signals from the market. Yeah, we totally see the signals and we're diligent about like, let's not follow a false idea, right? So we're we're testing everything that we're doing when we're in the market. So we're we're trying to put something out and say, oh, there's interests keep going. Okay, there's still interest keep going, which is what we did with perks. I mean, we did it two years and we were like, oh, the first one wasn't a fluke. People are still here. Yeah. And our brands came back and new brand showed up. And so that happens every year. And you go like, okay, there's really an appetite for this. And then you dig in and you say now, especially with the conventions, we're not just a place for you to shop for stuff for your employees. We're also a place for you to come learn and and fundamentally change the conversation from benefits to employee experience. So you can listen to to people get up on stage and teach you how to design an employee experience and then walk outside and shop for those those experiences. For me, the takeaway that has been just listening to you is really the learning. And so there's so many. I think what you're doing is myth busting, to be honest with you. There's so much in my head, like when we would do employee things, we did paintball. And like 95% of people shut up and we're like, why didn't everyone come? It's like some people just don't want to get shot by people, right? Just to be clear, like you're definitely excluding a person who's like not down for pain, doesn't maybe like holding guns, probably was busy with you couldn't get a babysitter that night. Like there's lots of reasons people don't come. I think the issue is like if you're not asking those people why they didn't come or you're not if you don't understand why they didn't come and more so when it's like only 30% of people came. Right. Then you're like, OK, something's off here. But even that it's good. I mean, you're bringing a lot of awareness to the marketplace, at least for people like me. Yeah, I had no idea where it's like 30% to win. It's a win. It's a win. It's a win. And like you've got to let your people team do that stuff. You've got to empower them. You can't I realize that they are on paper in theory a cost center, but they're not because if they can if they can get this formula right and keep people away from Glassdoor and off the LinkedIn interview questions for another year, that's a big savings for a business. Like you can keep people for an or they leave and they say positive things publicly about you. That's a win too. Do you spend a lot of time doing like building out these cost models of employee unhappiness, what that equals for one year of productivity? There's a lot of that already in the market. They're I mean, it's actually one of the things that, you know, to bust myths, it's like everyone thinks when they bring a product to an employer that it's got to be about like productivity and totally are alive. Yeah, what's the boost and all your your employees are going to save, you know, 70 hours a year and that cost this. And it's like, I think employers are kind of tired of that's the wrong narrative. It's the wrong. It's just it's not that simple. It is and it isn't. It's, you know, these are these are products that affect whole ecosystems. I mean, a business is an ecosystem, and it's not as simple as just like your employees will be in the office more. Like it's, you know, that's not the reason you provide perks to just bait them into never leaving. Like that's not the goal. The goal is to get them coming back even on the days where it's hard and they're tired or something's not working or someone had a bad day. Like that's when you want them to be like, OK, I can still do this. It's worth it. It'll be fine. I work with I like what I'm doing. It'll be OK. Yeah, we just stress clarity, clarity a lot. Like you got to have the clarity. Yeah. And that starts with the whole full circle of you. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're not trained, like if you're not training people, you know, back to like, you know, HR is a meta function. If you're not training your managers on a regular basis to be good at cultivating the culture of their teams, they're going to suck anyway. Right. Like if you don't, if you're not, you know, everyone always does the age old like, oh, the best sales guy will make the sales manager. That guy's rarely a good manager. But like the guy you promote as manager who like was the captain of the college football team or whoever comes off your sales force, like still needs development, like still needs to be able to figure out like, OK, that sales guy hates that sales guy, but they got to work on something together. How do I make this work? Or this one's not motivated right now because she's got something going on. Like you still have to like, you have to give people growth opportunities, not just in their skill set, but also in the organization. Right. Yeah. And people just overlook that. Where can people find you? Tell everyone where they can find you, your company? They can find us at perkscon.com, like perksconvention.com or peopleopsociety.com. My outdated website is alexibagio.com and we are perkscon and peopleop society at all things, all the handles. Yeah, everywhere. I love it. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thanks for having me, guys. I hope it was remotely interesting. Awesome. 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