 And we are all delighted and excited to be here to tell you about our 10 approaches. Now we're going to start with some introductions and then our planned plan of attack here is that we've got some approaches that we each want to share and then we're going to have an open discussion where maybe you even can think of some of your own ideas to add into more approaches to building inclusive communities. But before we get started let's give a little bit about who we are and why we're here. My name is Claire Dylan. Up until recently I was the executive director of Inner Source Commons which is the community for Inner Source practitioners, one of the largest in the world. And a lot of my experiences will be gleaned from that community but I'm also involved in a number of open source communities like chaos and sustain and I'm hoping to be able to add some examples from there too. And now I've had to my co-presenter to introduce herself. Thank you Claire. I'm Gail McCommons. I lead open source compliance for the OSPO at Comcast. Prior at Comcast I represent the company on the governing board for Open Chain. I also volunteer with an urban technology project which is the mentorship program we have in Philadelphia that where we focus on underrepresented groups that are making career shifts into tech or starting off their careers generally from underprivileged backgrounds. Prior to Comcast I worked at the Linux Foundation where I was a program manager for a number of the open source projects that you see represented this week where I ran operations and a lot of you are familiar with what our general role is. My introduction to open source was when I was a youngster and my early 20s and I had a MacBook. It was the black one back in the day when that was cool. Yes. And then I had an OS upgrade and I could afford it because I was like younger than I once was my age but I was broke and my a person I knew at the time who is now my husband introduced me to this idea of open source and Linux and this operating system I could use for free on my laptop when I couldn't afford to pay for the upgrade for the new Mac OS. I think it was like Mountain Lion back then or something. We used to have cute names and so I got a boot and I had a dual boot and that was my introduction to it into this availability of technology that was people like me who couldn't afford to pay for the fancy stuff and to be able to be part of a greater community. I'm also neurodivergent and disabled and this is my first talk ever so I am super honored to show a stage with Claire and my boss Sheila and I wouldn't be brave enough to give the talk if these two had not supported me and encouraged me so thank you to you both and Sheila. Thank you Gail that was such a great intro. Hi everybody my name is Sheila Sayevi and I lead the open source program office at Comcast. I first got involved with open source back in 2015-ish I would say that was I was actually working on the cloud operations team at Comcast and we were looking at running standing up a new cloud environment private cloud and OpenStack was the choice and I actually came from a Microsoft I was I was on the only Microsoft team at Comcast and then I was offered to work on the OpenStack team and within a few months I learned about the OpenStack conference and I asked my and it was actually in Hong Kong at the time and I asked my boss hey how do I go to this conference and he said well you need to contribute back to open source in order to go to the conference you should be a contributor and then you can go and so that is how I got started with open source and it was through the OpenStack community. Building community has always been kind of a part of me I've always been a people connector I've always connected my friends to one another I've always been kind of a power networker I have a music channel and what's up with over a hundred people we've it's probably the longest lasting community that that I've been that I've been managing also when I was in middle school my mother actually recently reminded me that there was a so flag football was only for the boys and the girls weren't allowed to play and so back then we didn't have WhatsApp or Signal or iMessage and so it was through word of mouth I started a community and then we went out and did a protest I think 12 or 13 years old and then we ended up starting flag football and so community management and inclusive communities are ingrained within me on the work on the work front also we have internal communities at Comcast we have an open source community with over a thousand members within our Slack channel and also we have a distribution list a mailing list with over 2,000 members also the first community that I started was OpenStack Meetup that was an open source community in the DC area northern Virginia with over 500 members and when I moved to Philly there wasn't a I didn't there was a Kubernetes community but there wasn't one for Prometheus and there wasn't really one for overarching CNCF projects and so I started that it was much smaller under a hundred members the Philly community was pretty small but it was still a community that needed nurturing and inclusion and so I'd love to share some of our experiences with you all and hopefully at the end like Claire mentioned we can talk about some ideas that you have and we may have missed some as well so I will go ahead and segue in 10 practical tips for building inclusive open and inner source communities I'll start with this first one doing everything with intention this is really important and before we begin I'll talk about a quote you may or may not have heard it before this quote the first time I heard it was three or four years ago by my former boss many of you may know her she did a keynote keynote talk on the first day of the conference Nithya Ruff and it was diversity is being invited to the party and inclusion is being asked to dance and this quote is originally by Verna Myers who is from Netflix she is the VP of inclusion strategy at Netflix and this kind of resonated with me so we'll talk about what is an inclusive community inclusive communities do everything to respect all of their members their citizens and they give full access to the same things to all the members they work to eliminate all forms of discrimination all all of the users and the members are engaged in the decision-making process or at least they're aware of what the decision-making process is and what how to become the next leader succession which we'll also talk about inclusion happens with intention we do this all the time in our open source program office I'm not saying we have a meeting before we have a meeting but we kind of do online most of the time it's a it's most of the time it's asynchronously or it's something we bring up in our team meeting we'll talk about different communities that we want to launch one of them is like the ambassador program that we have at Comcast we have over 40 members who are they're all over the world we have members from Chennai we have members from Denver we have Texas just all over the US as well we talk about inclusive language we talk about what are some ways that we can be more inclusive we try to remind each other and to always talk about ways to improve and so with that I want to say that we don't these things don't happen on accident they are intentional they're sometimes they can be happy accidents but most often than not they are intentional and we we do everything with intention when it comes to building our communities covering multiple time zones so this is a thing that I learned through the open stack foundation when I first joined the open stack foundation and I started doing contributions I didn't actually write code so I needed to figure out a way to contribute and I found that they needed language translation so that was an easy way for me because I speak Farsi and there weren't any Farsi translations yet and then documentation was another one I quickly over the weekend learned markdown and github pull requests it was a long weekend but I self taught myself and the good news is that my partner is in he was studying so I had all the time in the world so while he was studying I was sitting there teaching myself gith and covering multiple time zones was a huge thing in that in that community with the documentation project even with the different networking meetings that were going on it was important to have an APAC meeting as well as an america's meeting we also do that here on our team so it's not necessarily just with open source communities it's also within our team we're a distributed team gale is located in texas chan who's in the audience she's located in colorado I'm in the dc area we have somebody in Chennai and then we also have somebody in philly and so we need to make sure that we're covering different time zones we do that by having meetings that are convenient for everyone we also make sure that we have transparency embedded into our processes so if somebody can't make it they can go in and read the notes that's also good for succession planning which I'll also talk about next the different the multiple time zones also this is very relevant and open source you know you can put in a pull request and you'll see somebody hasn't responded right away they might be all the way in australia they might be in a different time zone than you and so it's important to be cognizant of that and also to be inclusive of the different time zones that you're working with the last point that i'm going to make is succession planning succession planning is really important it's very important for sustainability of different programs and communities that you're nurturing or that you're managing but also it's important for inclusion so I for example am in the steering committee in the to-do group and my time is running up I think December 31st I will be out and so it's important for me to see who has been active in the community and identify people and bring them in because oftentimes people won't self promote they won't see themselves as fit imposter syndrome is a real thing it happened with me my boss she was part of the steering committee and so she said hey have you nominated yourself and I'm like no way I'm not nominating myself and she's like well I'm going to nominate you then but but you should definitely do this and so if you find a lot of times in open source communities and even inner source inside the firewalls of your company you'll see people are volunteering their time with inner source a lot of times it's not their full-time job they might be doing something completely different and they're collaborating and spending their time and so identify those people identify the ones that are going out of their way or that are really shining in those communities and think of ways to have them succeed I will some of the some of the some of the things you could be doing is documenting how to get into those roles how decisions are being made decision-making processes should all be transparent they should be open meetings those all should be documented there are tools to do scribing you can also pick someone in the meeting to help scribe and somebody else run the meeting but everything should be transparent and open and and that way anybody should be able to pick up where you left off and be good to go for succession planning and with that I will pass it over to you Gail okay thank you Sheila uh so the first step I'll cover is around inclusivity yes sorry I'm a lot taller than these two is around inclusivity statements um these are a practice that our recently as a means of well what we believe is that we should be explicit in our intention to build inclusivity in our work as Sheila said it doesn't happen by accident we believe it should be announced and we should be proud of it it should be advertised um one way our team does this is to we start with our pronouns between for each meeting or event my teammate who's in the audience Chan started us in that practice so whether it's a three person meeting or a 50 person meeting it's how we start um that can sometimes lead to others sharing their pronouns others don't and that's okay what we're trying to do is create this environment where inclusivity is part of what we do another practice we've adopted recently um is for our events that we have within our community to have a statement shared at the start of our call where we share that our intention and our goal is to create an environment where people are safe sharing their ideas and safe bringing their authentic selves to work um part of that is why I share I'm disabled and neurodivergent I want you to know that you're safe here with me and I can help create safety for you and it's something that our team does with intention um we do have the meetings before meetings and we talk about how can we make these announcements and make it clear for our community so they feel safe with us uh another area that we work on is a diverse representation of events so when I used to work at Linux Foundation when I started I was I heard I was told about the practice of not having manals so every panel had to have at least one non male identifying speaker included and I was struck because I didn't know that was an option I didn't know it was possible um to do that to have a something so simple that can create so much change but also it told me this is an environment where I can be safe because there's room for me here and I've been in tech my entire career and so many instances there wasn't room for me I was usually the only woman at the table and to have a space where that's welcomed and encouraged and I wasn't told oh women don't want to be technical or in tech um told me that I could be safe in this space and so within our OSPO what we do we partner with different diversity groups internally um and we try to give to build talent and give voices to underrepresented groups but we also look um beyond these standard kind of lens we talk about about diversity so there's different financial backgrounds and different educational backgrounds is everyone here an Ivy League person okay let's bring someone in who maybe has a different background I came from education a very roundabout way um and we want to make sure there's room for those voices um beyond gender and race and orientation and pronouns that how can we make sure we're diversifying who we are because that creates more room for more voices to be heard and space for more of us to be welcome we look at different upbringings different cultural backgrounds in our team alone we have many children of immigrants I'm a second generation American we have first generation Americans on our team and we look to represent that diversity in what we do because it's how the world looks around us and we want to bring that into the work that we do every day um another one of our building blocks I'll touch on is around psychological safety and that's become a buzzword I think in the past year or two um I try to come from a trauma informed background and one thing we've done before is to bring breathe the exercises in if someone brings up something a little more intense and they want need space to ground themselves but part of this building block is that we try to create an ethos in our team that everywhere we go we bring intentional action to create inclusivity and psychological safety and I'll repeat that intentional action to create inclusivity and psychological safety as Sheila said it's not by accident we have to go forward and say how can I create safety for people again we all come from different backgrounds I want to make sure you're safe having your ideas shared and if you feel unsafe that you have an escalation path so when we share inclusivity statements we include in that reach out to us and we will help you manage this we've had sometimes someone made a joke about neurodivergency they could have been neurodivergent they could have not that joke could have landed well could have not we want to make sure our community has somewhere safe to go even if it's just to say hey like I just need to talk about this something else we do to create safety and psychological safety is we have a commitment amongst our team that when we are out in the world whether internally or externally if we hear someone being talked over or interrupted or ignored we have a commitment we'll say hey I heard that person's I want to finish sharing what they had to say or I think I heard this person speaking it doesn't have to be combative it can be gentle but it's our way of advocating for our community and again creating safety so that our community can thrive and what we also want to do is provide a clear way for them to engage in escalation and to engage with us and to have a safe place to land and one of those as I learned this actually from my own trauma background but I saw Eva Black do this on a call invite everyone to breathe in these environments we can get very worked up and we can kind of get overwhelmed and over stimulated so we try to create space for that and the work that we do and then next up is miss clear thank you so much Gail and so each of us when we decide to do this talk we picked some of these building blocks but you know there's no particular order but but they are kind of these these points that I think made a difference to us and we feel make a difference in in other people's lives and one of those things is a very common point that has always brought up in open source communities how the importance of mentorship and handholding I'm not going to belabor at that point because I think everyone knows how important that is what I do want to point to is that it doesn't always have to be a big endeavor so my own story in terms of my first open source contribution was with the inner source community it itself is an open source community because we all contribute using open source methods to build the resources for inner source commons and I still remember that first time I had to make a PR and I was terrified I'll be honest I'm not a techie it was been years and years since I did any kind of programming even then I knew nothing about github or how to do it and there was one gentleman in the community called Johannes who um took the time to go through that with me and what was amazing about it was it didn't take me a full weekend because of that he actually volunteered to go on a zoom call with me and every time I hesitated over is it this button and I'm like and what do you put in that field because like you know like do I go long do I go short am I being too casual am I being too formal I mean these are the questions you ask yourself that to be honest no documentation is ever going to cover right so so he took the time to say yeah this is what I put in this field and yes you pressing the right button no go ahead Claire no really go on press it and and and just having someone to handhold me through that process was honestly put me on this path to be what I consider like an open source and inner source advocate and the reason why this is so important I was speaking yesterday to a gentleman I met here and he said that his first open source commit pure went so badly that he didn't try again for six years and now so think of the difference that makes right it was a half an hour of Johannes's time and it made such a difference to me that I'm going around telling other non techies that this is easy and I mean I was going around going it's all sunshine and rainbows open sources for everyone I don't understand why everyone isn't doing it I had to be told that that's not always the case but at the same time I just want to speak to how a small act of mentorship or a time that it takes someone to spend time with people and to be patient and to accept the fact that they might be terrified and is a really valuable thing my second point is about feedback and emojis now again I and this is this is all about energy expending energies right and again everyone knows that feedback is important it is incredibly important to acknowledge contributions and people's effort I have also noted that very few people are really good at this right like I know a couple of people in the inner source commons community who give really good feedback they take the time to consider what exactly about your contribution was really good what exactly was the your strength that you're displaying but very few people do that well and very few people take the time to do that to the degree that the people who are good at it do and my quickie quickie snappy kind of version of this is emojis I don't know about you all but like I mean it was one of the transforming things about slack and social media for me was kind of like I don't have to think about what to type I can just use at one or maybe five emojis and I'll expand my energy in deciding which of the dancing penguins is most appropriate for this particular situation and and I love it I'm like I'm out there emojying everything and I suppose I wanted to share that well for me anyway it's a piece of feedback in a void that can be the void that you contribute into and no matter what your contribution is whether it's a comment or whether it's an actual p or full commit some sort of recognition that you're there that you're giving energy to the world even if it's a tiny little dancing penguin I particularly like the dancing penguins for anyone who's out there and then then that is what actually gives people the energy back and makes that kind of energy exchange worthwhile and purposeful that's my second one feedback but particularly emojis and my last one is a comment about physical and virtual events so again I got into the open source and inner source communities about five years ago but it wasn't until the pandemic that I really became involved now the point I want to make here is that I know that after the pandemic there was this rush to get back together to feel this physical connection and I am not downplaying the importance of having physical opportunities to get together and meet people and do hallway tracks and all the rest of it but what I want to say is that we can't go back to the way we were where that was the only way I would never have been able to pick this as a career or have the access to the events and the people I didn't have a travel budget I didn't have the means by which to pay for an event ticket I didn't even know how to pay for an event ticket and so for all of these reasons keeping a very strong virtual element to all of our communities and you know I think it's so important I'll note that this time last year there were there was an ability to be able to live stream questions from a virtual audience at the event and it's disappeared and I get why right there are there are logistical reasons why these things change and costs associated but it changes the dynamic it means that anyone now participating in this virtually is doing it after the fact and they don't get a chance to actually participate in the conversation so for me I would like to ask folks to consider that as long with physical events we do always consider a is there a virtual opportunity to participate is it an equal opportunity to participate and maybe sometimes you need a virtual first experience to give that widest possible opportunity to participate for people for whom just getting over that barrier of getting somewhere is a really really difficult thing and it will it will honestly well it creates a much bigger dance floor so that when you are inviting people to dance there's there's room out there you know it's not all doing the moves you know taking up all the space there's like kind of room room on the edges for more people to join in and I think that would be a great thing so I think the last point I'm going to pass back over to Sheila to kind of introduce us into the last point because we kind of brainstormed all these things and what were our favorite points but there was one that we all watched the gash so so we decided we do together we all have a bit to say on this last one thank you Claire so drum roll everybody building personal relationships so the this is incredibly important in building inclusive communities these are I'll I'm going to actually talk about a story an example one of one of the things that Gail did when she I want to say maybe a year ago or so six months to a year ago she connected with the Ben janeers group they are the black engineers at Comcast and there's a woman who runs she's now I think I think she's the president is she the president Caroline yeah so she's there's a woman who runs the the the Ben janeers group and what Gail did was she connected with her and then whenever we have our newsletters or whenever we have opportunities like the our ambassador program or whenever we have conferences or events we make sure that Caroline she puts in a plug for us she actually gets in right on through the distribution list and she puts us right on the calendar directly we don't even have to go through an intake process that's an example I think of building different relationships and building inclusion into your communities another example that I can I can use is for when I got into the user committee for OpenStack I had a relationship with somebody from CERN and I was so shocked when I found out that he put my name in for that position there was I had no idea that this would happen a lot of these relationships are for me were formed at conferences but they don't necessarily have to happen in person like Claire mentioned a lot of these communities like you'll see CNCF or Kubernetes they have Slack channels there are mailing lists you can get in there's a bunch of people that they respond into the mailing lists OpenStack Foundation I'm not sure about now but used to hang out in IRC so that's that was a good place where you can go and meet people and ask questions these personal relationships have really really helped me in my career even when I mentioned earlier today that I was actually working on the only Windows team that was in Comcast at the time and when I moved over to the cloud team I had allies and I had people who believed in me and they said we don't care if you only know Windows or Microsoft you'll learn it's you'll just apply the exact same things but now behind the command line so no worries you'll learn and then I did learn eventually so those relationships I think are super helpful in building inclusive relationships and also for helping get get ahead and you can do the same back so I'll let you all jump in so my take on it is coming from the perspective of an introvert I tend to when I leave conferences I don't have a hundred new best friends I have like two I'm a little more withdrawn I do one-on-one connections but something that I found that can be a strength because oftentimes when you are making a one-on-one connection you don't know what change are influencing in the greater scale or who you're helping in the long term and I think part of that I see my colleague do it when she helps encourage someone to attend a conference or I give their first talk uh yeah I'm looking at you and uh and it's how we see others at times it's how we make those one-on-one connections and we see them and we can create a space for them and it also just get work done in the ways that Sheila mentioned we've done that and we're able to get a team to lend their tool to us and they pay the license fee and we get to use it for our purposes because we don't have no budget for tooling or we have a budget but smaller don't get in trouble for that one but you know there's a way that we're able to also be successful and create success in our team through that but I think again going back to you know my passion around psychological safety if we have personal relationship and you're looking for that I can help you find it hopefully or directly to someone who can help you um that's how I prioritize it Claire thanks Gail um and I'm going to talk a little bit well first of all I just want to say reinforce the fact that these personal relationships are so important and I and I think we talk a lot about trust in in psychological safety and who we trust I mean open source inner source it's all about collaboration it is almost impossible to do that without building trust and part of building trust is actually knowing the people you're working with and trusting them and even if you don't know them you still you're still trying to build to a to a threshold where you know them enough to know that you trust them and I think that this is so important um and then to add on to I suppose some of the maybe tactics or practical tips for how to do that perhaps not in the physical environment it's it is sometimes easier to be able to get to know someone over um a dinner to tell stories to learn about people's backgrounds that all helps to build that trust it is much harder in a in a virtual environment to do that without intentionally making the space to do that and so I'll put a call in here to say um you know it is important not to always be getting down to business not to always be thinking about how efficient and productive can I be in my 15 minutes um uh because because getting to know people is an important thing and in a virtual environment it doesn't happen unless you plan for it to happen so in the inner-source commons community the way we've actually kind of looked at that is that we've tried to replicate the kind of hallway space by creating time in front of our big summits or our community calls where we explicitly say we're just hanging out here we're not talking about inner-source and we might but we might talk about the fact that I got my hair done yesterday and I don't really like it or whatever but the point is get ready for that because you know it may be just that we're just getting to know each other um and I also want to call out uh the chaos community because they they have a practice which I love when they're actually getting people to sign in as attendees every single time they ask you a different question like what's your favorite music band or what's your favorite color or do you like white chocolate or something like that but the point is yeah exactly and people have very strong opinions about white chocolate it turns out anyway each time you know this little bit more about everyone on the call and it makes you have a connection and I think that's really the important thing we need to find these opportunities for these personal connections that are beyond our passion around open-source and inner-source but actually speak to the fact that we are all human beings all different human beings and being inclusive about the way that we are all different so um I think with that oh we got another one this is such a good one okay more more I also want to jump in and add in uh this is something we recently started doing with our team and um I think it's working so far we've done maybe three or four of them so far we already talk all day on Slack we talk all day on Slack we also have a shared calendar every single meeting that anybody's in anybody is welcome on the team to drop in if you're interested or passionate on that topic or if you want to learn so what we started doing on our team just in the Ospo is every other week so we meet every other meeting is just a personal catch-up meeting casual we don't need we do not need points we don't need to go deep into details we can actually just catch up on what we were up to in the last two weeks and that could be work related or not but we try to keep it casual and so we have one Ospo strictly kind of business meeting and then the other one is Ospo catch-up session and we wanted to do that at a time that works for everybody in different time zones and also it is uh convenient and it gives us a time to catch up with each other and kind of touch on the human factor so oh also so I'm curious to hear from you all uh I think we have about 10 minutes left in our presentation do you have any ideas is there anything we missed is there anything that you'd like to add um on building inclusive communities whether they're internal whether it's your team or open source I got a loud voice I can project um it's figuring out ways to make sure that everybody speaks I am somebody who speaks a lot in meetings and it's actually a really bad habit that's really hard for me to break um so it's like your co-worker Chan just did which is inviting other people to speak um something that tends to work a little bit better when you have people like me in the room is like setting rules on like how to moderate who speaks when in advance like the devil team that I work on right now we have a stated thing where if the meeting is above like four attendees you use the hand raised feature in in google meets and we only go by that and if somebody interjects you're allowed to call them out for being rude and like it just that's what works for us um yeah makes sure everybody gets to speak that's a great one that's Celeste for their home people who might be viewing this at home thank you Celeste we're building personal connections here I have a question about feedback and emojis what if you're introverted um you don't want to uh reply to a virtual message even putting in the emoji feels a little intimidating um how does someone um how do you encourage someone to to to be able to speak and get out there and respond I'll say I don't have the answer to that because I am an extrovert and therefore as I've mentioned love emojis um but but what I what what I what I'm going to point back to is maybe Celeste's answer so I mean the if if one thing that your thought prompted with me would be that perhaps we have just a standard emoji that everyone uses just to say I read this certainly in inner sorry in inner source commons that's that's one of the things that people are getting people to practice with so can you please if there's a call say for example to do board reports or something like that can you please indicate you've seen this message by giving us little eyeball emoji or something or can we do an emoji vote by you telling us which of these three options you prefer so an explicit call with an explicit kind of acceptable emoji response can sometimes help people maybe get into that if that may help but maybe other people up um this one is less related to emojis but just on feedback and getting people to get out there uh I have actually written abstracts for people to get out there um I will tell them hey listen your project is wonderful if you want I will co-present with you I'll put in the abstract all you have to do is take the last 20 minutes and talk about your project I'll do all the other stuff I'll talk about how we open sourced it I'll talk about how we built a community for it and you talk about the architecture and that has worked I think we did we did two talks at KubeCon with two of our engineers they had amazing projects which are now incubated in CNCF kubernetes and trickster and so all I did was take the first and actually I shortened the time so I I went up there saying hey I'll take half the time and then you dive into the architecture and then actually with the kubernetes talk I think I did maybe 10 minutes just how did we open source it how did we build a community and boom this is the project and then the engineer just went at it um and then from there on they started doing talks at other conferences and so sometimes you kind of have to put some training wheels on or kind of push them towards it uh same thing I think goes with open source communities even putting your work out there on mailing lists people are shy they're like oh there's thousands of people on that mailing list I don't want people to judge um but then I'll say well do you want me to write the email for you and then next time maybe you you want to jump in and or maybe you can chime in or cc you know you'll be cc'd um so those are some techniques that have that have helped so I was going to say on the the feedback and emojis I think just like creating uh visibility into your process like so my team has a ways of working doc for example right just telling someone that like this is a this is a way that you could provide feedback and they're like oh I didn't know that that was a thing I could do there's a question in the back thank you it was very interesting you asked for something that I was missing and I would like to I I would like to mention the language barrier because when we have a global open source project we have contributors from all around the globe and basically English is their second third even fourth language and so if we increase awareness about that and there are many things that we can do for example if we have meetings in zoom we can make sure that they're going to be like this automatic tool for including automatic captions because many many not native English speakers read better than here because there are so many different accents and different you know so there are many different ways to increase um to to make more comfortable you know the contributing to a project for a non-native English speaker but being increasing awareness is the first step and just to say thank you for adding that because that was obviously one we missed in our bias all being English speakers um so thank you so much so to add I suppose to that would be the real-time you know engagement angle and then the potential for and these days I suppose with with AI the potential to do this at scale and we should all be looking at the possibility of making sure that all our resources are accessible to people in different languages so yeah it's a great point thank you um thanks a lot by the way for um for this awesome talk um I think like it's everything like it's like so helpful and uh and so valuable I was um I thank you actually for putting um this thing on my mind I was like there's something missing and I don't really want not what and um and then you kind of uh spark that uh in my head it's about patience and it's kind of all over the place um but it's about um so we also we also work in a in a in an English environment where English is also the mother tongue of only a few and um it takes so little to um just get someone I don't know if angry maybe it's not the word but like on the toes you know in a way just because um yeah just because of a of a language uh like a word that you have used differently like even if you were talking about British and uh and US English like only that it's just alright you know and um yeah like patience in the way of okay if you have so before getting angry or before getting yeah stressed about something just ask first have I understood it correctly is this what you mean and I could even sorry to be a party pooper about the emojis because I love the emojis myself as well but sometimes emojis get to really stupid misunderstandings as well not the penguin what everyone loves that one but um yeah I think we have time for one more question up here I think that's probably all we have time for thanks um I just want to um further on Sheila's point around translations and what was mentioned about English um not being the mother tongue for everyone um I work in the communities project for docs um and we do a lot of localization of a lot of our documentation content we have our documentation in 15 different languages and we try and make it um as approachable as possible to get folks reading the documentation of one of the biggest open source projects in the world in the language that they speak and that is that is fluent for them um and the first step to doing that is actually translating the contribution docs so they can get more involved in actually contributing to the project um so that's something that I that I think a lot of projects can do you know underscoring that translations in different languages is important um and then building communities around those um those different languages as well and then on top of that as one of the non-american people in my team the cultural differences of references even when we all speak English is really interesting um um I only learned what an Ivy League school was recently I don't know what that means uh where I'm from we say university so little things like this is also really interesting and I get to learn a lot that is interesting and a little silly about my team because of their cultural backgrounds versus my own so I think that's also a fun thing but also something worth thinking about in terms of inclusion thank you it's going super fast so um also in terms of diversity inclusion helping out people who do not speak English as a first language um the company I live in Berlin the company I work for is based in Helsinki most of the company does not speak English as their first language but we mostly publish in English um so something that we do which kind of this is more devrel related it furthers our goals as a devrel team um we provide feedback on any CFPs that anybody is submitting and a part of that feedback is helping people be confident that what they've written is good um and the second thing that we do is anybody who speaks and who works at Ivan and who goes out to speak as a conference we require them to have a rehearsal so that we can give them feedback and it really just it helps with the confidence a lot and frankly it has helped with our acceptance rate like hugely so yeah thank you Celeste and thank you everyone for coming to our talk thank you thank you Claire and Sheila have a good day everyone