 This is a Y254 discussion mandate that is if you just tuned in and our discussion tonight we are looking at the proposer of affordable housing by the government where if the government finds its way through from the petitions in court to have its proposed affordable housing then all canyons in formal employment will have to part with 1.5% of the earnings in the contribution towards this project that the government wants to see about 500,000 houses built by 2022 and this is a conversation that has brought a naprol out here and tonight discussion mandate is what it wants to look about and we dwell into that but before then I will ask my guess one question do you support this Daniel? No I don't support this initiative. Okay let me be honest I have my reservations as regards to this 1.5% house living so if it was well crafted and it was well looked into then I would have no objections but I have some reservations. So the conversation has been ongoing and the government assures Kenya that there was public participation into this because many people are saying we were not involved and maybe from your knowledge was there any public participation towards this project and how did the government arrive at 1.5% to have this project? Well again it's quite critical to consider some of these put them into perspective because public participation is one of the requirements in article 10 of the constitution. This is a national values that we are having is one of them but then why would we have public participation after the declaration of a project? So each and every time I hear the feedback about you know we consulted who did you consult, how did you arrive into conclusion and how was the report made. Now look here, one of the big four agenda is on affordable housing and I always say that matters of housing is not really a problem. When you look at housing you deal with access, affordability and quality, that's what defines the housing. But if you again for example would want to roll out such a big and a mega initiative without the stakeholder involvement it becomes a white elephant project. You've put it so clearly that you know if you wanna tax 1.5% from my salary you only tax what I've worked for in my pay. The report in this country shows that almost 65% of the youth are either unemployed or undiemployed. So unemployment means they're at home and hustling to get something to do. Undiemployment means they're employed but then getting little in consumerate what they should get. So when you tax 1.5% from undiemployment salary you end up you know putting these young people into under privileged conditions. So well Gujiri would want to be very diplomatic about it. Well I say that you see when you have you either support an initiative you don't have a reservation about bad policies. So the policy about you know the housing is either that we tell the government come on be real or could you retract back and consider some of the integrities about this policy. It's not about policy but as far as I'm concerned I think Kenyans would not be cohast into paying 1.5% if they did not earn something. How Gujirias you respond to that you will tell us whether you are involved. You see my friend Daniel says that I either support or don't support. Yet he's the one who says that it is not a bad policy but he said he opposes it. So I can see the double standards of my colleague here. But again I was talking to Nicholas yesterday in Muraga County. Nicholas who? A 34 year old man who is an employee that works at the informal sector. Okay. Today again I talk to Gabriel who is also in the informal sector and is not employed by government in Jujia constituency. There are some of the concerns that I got from both of them is we don't know what this housing levy is about. What will happen to us who are not employed. So that one speaks to the question you just asked as regards to whether I was consulted or not. I was never consulted. So you also didn't know? Of course public participation one of the prescript of public policy is that the people that are going to be involved in a decision must be involved in the decision making process. That is outright and for government it would have been very key if they got better alternatives. I don't oppose the housing project but again my reservations are as follows. Number one, where is the good number of unemployed Kenyans? Number two, what is the formula that will be used to distinguish who will get that affordable house? Who will not get? Number three, why do you want to force or why must people be forced to pay taxation that they will not benefit from? Let me tell you something Hilary. In since 2012 there is an organization called Habitat for Humanity in the United States. It is a global humanity agency that partnered with overseas corporations in order to use American entrepreneurs to invest over 300 US dollars. How it worked was through financing microfinance institutions. Those are banks, circles and those microfinance institutions would then create credit that would enable the commoners to be able to get affordable loans which was optional. And those people would be able to now build their affordable houses. So my reservations are number one. How many do you have? Listen, let me make my point. I know it was an iridescent venture by government to ever dream of giving its citizens affordable houses. But again it is not each and every person who needs that house. Some have. So let me ask government to look into that policy again once more. As we speak we have petitions in court from the Federation of Kenyans Employers and the Consumer Federation of Kenya. So we won't dwell much on that because it's a matter in court already. But we are saying if this thing goes on then we will have to, people in the formal employment will have to part with 1.5% of the earnings. But then we have people who are servicing mortgages. We also have people who own their houses. We in Gisana they have their homes. I'm assuming a person who is 40 years they have their house. So if they will have to contribute this 1.5% whose house will they be building? Yes, their children or do they have a right to sell it maybe later? Well I think those are the issues I see. This is very unpopular policy and I still insist on what I said before. One you've actually intimated that you see there are people who are still in housing mortgages and they are paying. Some are paying long time for a long time. I was just wondering and asking myself a question. Should the government facilitate a citizen to get a house? Or should the government give a house to a Kenyan citizen? These are questions that we are lingering on my mind. What I'm thinking is from a human right based approach, housing is a necessity and that becomes a right. You know our constitution. I think at equal 40 is you read it through those are third generation rights that will come with this constitution. And it's all Kenyans should be given an affordable and accept in quality houses. Now he's brought up a very very important element. I want to refer you not very far. Right here in Langata the government through the UN Habitat had initially rolled up a housing project, a location of the housing. And everybody is aware that as we speak the residents of Kibra in Langata who are relocated to those houses sold the houses. Or others render the mouths and they are still getting you know house rent until we speak. Yes. So I think it speaks on the government. That was so loud to the government that people saying you know our issue probably might not be a house. And I agree with what he says now it probably should not be a house. But our issue is trying to make a living. You know get enough economical empowerment that is able to help us pay for the house. So the question is why did Kibra residents rented the houses that were given by UN Habitat at upgrading program went back to the slums and government thought they needed houses. So there are so many critical issues that we really need to step by step again. We are into a government and I think it's always important also to provide an option. Not only to criticize the government but also give the government an option. The option is revise on the strategy. Big for example houses that we have in Makadara in Jamhuri or in other areas that are owned by the government probably through the Nairobi City County or all devol system of government. Remember president actually ask the government to come to the state house so that you would share the big for agenda. So my proposal the initial houses why would you try to renovate the houses or if the spacing within those houses construct other houses. Right. And where they need be that you relocate canyons relocate them in those houses because 500,000 houses within a span of three years it's not attainable. So I think that would just become a foundation of affordable housing which is in the big for agenda. All right. As opposed to it becoming a white elephant project. Bojira you respond to that question. I also want you to tell us in your own opinion where do you think these houses will be. Are we speaking about Nairobi how about other 46 counties the people in the rural they have their homes. Yes. Where are they building in the Shambas or they will come to Nairobi. I think that is what I want to understand as a youth. Yes again to quote what Zak Gashamba would tell me in one of our discussions about this housing levy. Number one. The position of the young people is that you must empower them and give them jobs so that they can be able to make a living. Not only to afford houses but also to make to live a dignified life. If you are able to give jobs to the young people then that one means that they will be able even to access mortgages. You see we have a national housing corporation which is indeed dreaming of building 500,000 houses in a good time. So that one tells you that if you empower the young people then you are taking a step in the right direction. Then coming back to your question I know of the government's plan to have those houses in urban centers. I also know that in some I don't know whether would call them some urban rural or the grammar they are about. But then those houses will be built not like it will be a one house venture. Like my friend Daniel will have his own house. It will be maybe a one flat. If you need a bed-seater you get your bed-seater. You need a one bedroom you get one bedroom. No this bed-seater will equal the amount I have contributed. And for how long? You see a bed-seater is going to cost about 600,000. So number one I ask myself very many questions because if we are going to live as a community in that particular flat it means that we will have to pay for the caretakers allowances. We will have to pay the maintenance allowances. We will have to pay perhaps the gatekeeper. We will have to pay so many other services. So as I look it from a prismatic angle I see a very expensive affair here whereby if we are not careful we are going to see a situation whereby people will either like he said rent those houses or even sell them. Yes. Not withstanding the kind of expensive budgeting that has been put in place. Alright Orogo let me touch where the youth will be much pressed. We have a big number like you just mentioned we have a big number of people who are not employed and if they employed they are under employed. Now I am looking at this span. They want to have these houses. Who will build them? Right because I am sure we will have a case of tendapreneurship in this case. We will have people because so and so can do a good job let him have it and then I hear the government will buy from it but then where is the youth? This youth who has no job maybe for the last ten years and he is expected to have a house in three years. What will happen? Well also bringing another factor to it is most of the employment and you could see this from the statistics. I am sure that young people most of them are on contract basis. And when you subject somebody on contract it means that when you begin to cut the levy you are not assured how long that young person is going to stay on that job for some time. So where is the youth? I think from time in memorial you have seen that the only place young people especially on the industrial activities or probably at the manual trying to build, carry the bricks and all these things. Khajulwak. Khajulwak and so it brings a very interesting question. First of all you are building houses that would actually house a generation of young people who are probably between 18 to 35 years right now. And this project as I tell you might take even a long time. It might not even be within three years. This is just a foundation probably. And that young person is not on permanent job employment, is on a contract. And those who are not on a contract are placed at Khajulwak, the Khajulwak laborers. So I think is one of the policies that is strategically and it's inspired to exclude the young people both in job and those who are within informal settlement who will provide the labor to this thing. Remember there's another component that we are yet to touch. Like you said tender prenuas and end up prenuas the building materials might or might be exported as well. We still do not know. So if it is in a case that this will be exported it actually brings to a very very important element that young people who are actually building blocks and burning bricks and all over from the rural areas that could supply might not get employment. Gujiri I know you are supporting the government. I agree. I know it is by government. And it is his opinion is allowed. It's one of the things that we should actually be very concern about that we are not here to find poke holes each and every time in what the government does. But it's important for this government to listen to a chunk that contributes a lot of economical growth to this country and these are the young people always each and every time involve them, participate, ask them their question, get their feedback so that this project should be well. It is in the entire generation. Yes, as one of the young citizens who would want to see Kenya in the better side of the economic giants in this world perhaps I would want to take a case of an advanced democracy like the United States whereby they have like I said an overseas private investment corporation which is composed of American entrepreneurs that are able to finance and you just asked who will build the houses that are being promised by government. So the US has that cooperation which now is comprised of the private sector people who are able to finance the cooperation and they are able to give or they are able to create credit to microfinance institutions that covers the unemployed because we also have the unemployed populace in this country and they are the majority people in the informal sector so we also need to have them on board whereby the government has a kitty like in the US they have a micro build fund that is what they normally call it Even in Kenya we need also to have a fund that takes care of those who are not yet employed but would wish to have affordable housing. Again, the government... We are running out of time if you give. If we look at now in a general principle as regards to what the government has promised the 1.5 house levy Number one, let me say it is a good thing especially as a growing country to also benchmark even with advanced democracies but again, let us look at who needs these houses are we talking of concentrating more on housing and forgetting health are we talking which health is a basic it should be a basic requirement for any human being survival because without health people cannot be able to work and create for economy so let us... we can focus on food security more we can focus on universal health care more we can focus on manufacturing more which even is a decent public policy which creates jobs which is able to create money to the economy which can also be used to finance mortgage for these people to build houses so without health and food security and manufacturing I think that even this housing project will not be achieved so let us first arrange them Number one, food security let us make sure that people we have something Number two, they are healthy and number three, they have jobs those who need houses can be able even to build for themselves but those who feel that they can be included in the government's housing scheme can also join the board so I joined the paragon of saying let those that wish to have their houses in the government scheme have and let those who are employed but also wish to take a mortgage in a private venture do it Alright, yes 30 seconds You know, gudili paaz of this sometimes and it's your final recommendation This is something that has been gazetted Listen, let's be real Let's... the last opportunity is that he's going to... No, no, no the government had already gazetted this it means it's something that has already taken an effect without consultation and without proper mechanism to do this so this is something that has already taken an effect our economy is at 5.6% and therefore if we begin to comparatively talk about for example Singapore and US I think it's important that we be real to the situation that are affecting Kenyans and I agree with him when he says if you are willing to get a housing would you just tell the government that I am willing so that the government would actually categorize you in the area that should be given housing if you are hard pressed if you are hard pressed then there is no way the government would actually force an apology so far this is a policy that I oppose and subject to a number of issues that should be looked into but so far from where I stand it's really unpopular Alright, we are out of time I would love us to continue this conversation Gonjure, I know you are so much pressed you want to say something but we don't have time many thanks for coming and sharing your comments and opinion I hope this information will get out there and something will be done We have been my guest in Gojure Kariuki and Daniel Orogo many thanks for keeping us company coming up next is Waimasha Riki I hear Susumila will be around so keep it Y254 and know what will happen on Waimasha Riki see you on Friday Dereva Hillary is my name