 So when you enter, when you get off the elevator, that's what I would like to see, a small map, I would say. A map? A map, a map, my kingdom for a map. So, anybody else has any suggestions that might compete with this one about having a map? Yes. Keep it in the way to the canteen so that when people go to it, they will be able to do that. Keep it on the way to the canteen, so you might hijack them before they get to the canteen. Just wave some food at them and run away, just pull them in to the loop. Great. Is that the way it is? On the left side, and that's five, and in the middle, I need to pass four, but then you will get four, three, and then you come back, that's five. So, you've been numbered differently? Numbered, not in a lot of ways. So, it's like one, two, and then one, then three, and then five, and then the last one is four. And you're saying it should not be that way? It should be sequential. I think the space is small enough that if I find it interesting, I'll walk across, but I feel like the title is not really very intuitive for somebody to figure out what's going to be... Branding, we have a branding problem, of course. How could we brand this differently? Brand differently. Yes, maybe that's the thing. Hi, Mina. How are you? That's okay. Please, join us. And as an honest friend for not finding anything, you're supposed to tell us a joke. Yeah. You can be about three... In three, anything walking into a bar would be a good... In three, act that. Are you really serious? No. No, anybody? No. Folks, thank you for all the suggestions about branding as well as location, and maybe any other dimensions. Welcome to the Hamnit edition of UX India, is this? 14. 14. And Hamnit edition of our industry in academia. 15th one. I've been associated with a few of these. It's always been a lot of fun. And I thank the folks for driving me back. I'm retired. I'm raised around the fields. These guys just pulled me my red tail and bring me here. And it's always wonderful to be with this panelist each and every time. A few of them I meet regularly, like Prasad. But today we have the pleasure of an entirely new panel. And this is about this... You know, we talk about design. We are all interested in getting this good, great design out into the world. And to get a great design into the world, what you start with are patrons of design. In ancient times, it used to be kings and emperors. And today we have corporations and organizations. They are patrons of design. They say, we want this design. And to sell those patrons of design are designers of design outfits, design organizations. And those design organizations in turn go turn to design institutions to get trained designers. And these design institutions, of course, reach out to the vast population. And then the whole thing comes around and the design patrons feed this design into the world and so on and so forth. So two key players in this game are the design patrons and a number of design studios and the design institution. Because they are responsible for creating these designs and as also the designers. There's often this conflict between organizations and academia that, you know, on the academic, the companies, organizations, they say, you don't train those students if they're well enough to meet our needs. We have to spend six months to a year training them. On the other hand, academic institutions say our job is not to train. Our job is to create thinkers, designers, people, citizens of the world who can transform the world. Training is a secondary aspect. It's necessary. So this goes on and it's there in every discipline. But design for us is very important, very critical because it's transformational. And this conversation rather than debate, if you will. And fortunately we have here people who have experience in both industry as well as academia. And what the way we do it is each of these folks will tell you a little bit about their perspectives, maybe for three or four or five minutes, Max. And then we get into a Q&A. I expect the students to ask a lot of questions, I hope, freely. And then if that slows down, we'll come back and have them pitch a few more things and we'll go back to you and so on and so forth. It seems to have worked in the past, and hopefully it has worked this time, otherwise we'll make it up as we go along. Okay? Okay, why not? She insists that we start, otherwise we'll start. Then you might be declared to be sexist and so on and so forth. It doesn't matter, you know? So don't get into that mind field. Just stay away from that. Just introduce yourself very briefly, who you are and which are your affiliations, and then you can make any statements you wish regarding what industry should do or what academia should do or what they expect, either way. It doesn't matter where you start. Then after a couple of minutes of that, pass it on to Prasad and Amstiyan and Meena. So good afternoon, everybody here. I think we're starting this discussion on the wheel and everything. So let me, I am actually in my career, if I see, 80% I was in industry and now the last six years I've been into academia. You haven't said all that for you, what? I'm Shakti Banerjee. Sorry, sorry. I'm Shakti Banerjee. Right now I'm heading university video design in MIT. It's MIT Institute of Design in Pune. I was also teaching in NID and I'm also passed out alumni of NID. So as you said, that is a discussion of thought for academia and the industry. I think we are missing one major stakeholder in the dyes, all the dyes, which are you, students. I think they also should be represented here, because it is for them, right? Because it's straight, right? And I think that is very important that we talk in terms of the growth, in terms of how we inculcate the young designers, young students to get into industry. We have to take their viewpoints also. That is my feeling. And secondly, as I have come from the industry and now I'm enjoying the teaching because I can see there are, because of the young minds you also learn. So I'm a bit learner, I'm actually a learner. I'm not a teacher, but I'm a learner. I'm a faculty, but I do learn. So I think that is what. And another, if I say, another stakeholder I would say, if I go as a systems project or system thinking wise. I think another, we should involve management of any education institute. That's another very big concern for this discussion. If I take some more time or we'll first. Yeah, actually faster or I'm going to be good at that. Yeah, that's good. Good afternoon, guys. My name is Prasad Patukul. I run an organization called Huge Designs in Pune. We have presence in Pune. We started, footing was in the Bay Area where the whole user experience design wave took up. I've seen education there, seen the industry there, seen the education here in the industry here. One of the things that I would like to kind of focus on today is the internships. Internships has just become tool for the academics to say, okay, you go to the industry, spend four or five days, few months more, and I think you should learn what industries are all about, but that doesn't really happen. There is a completely different volume that happens in the industry. And as Jack Wilson also said that you would not know what happens in the industry when you're doing education. How can we bridge that gap? That gap has always been there and it is continuously increasing because today, as you know, right, last time in the last conference we never spoke about artificial intelligence, machine learning, VR, AR. This conference, we are just talking about that. Next conference where we will talk something else. Academics on the other hand, especially in India, in the last three years we have seen some growth in user experience design. But user experience design came to India in probably 2000. So then that gap, ten years of gap, it did not produce enough designers. And so there are no entrepreneurs or educated industry people getting back to the education system and teaching students. Even today there are good design institutes, but there will be any good teachers there who could teach the students. And so the output is still weak. When these people come to the industry, there is a big gap, industry has high level of expectations. I'll just sum it up. There are projects that are done in academics. So let's say you are supposed to make an app, you know, come up with a food delivery app. It takes about four months of a project. But the same food delivery app that you do in the industry, you get about two to three weeks max. What does it mean to really do that job and yet get a good accolades from the customer? Those things is something that I think both are responsible to produce that gap. And let's talk about it as to how we could hold the microphone uncomfortably close to a year. I'm losing my voice, so I apologize for that. My name is Steve Baden. I've worked mostly in the industry for the past 20 plus years, but I've had relationships in academia as an instructor or lecturer. The majority of those years have worked at five different institutions. I took about a six-year pause and worked in academia. I had a small nonprofit organization, a small college in Vermont in the United States. I have two stories that come to mind as I think about these different themes and these different topics. One is that I recently finished celebrating the fact that one of the mentees that I worked with just landed a position as a researcher in user experience at a firm in San Francisco. And she was having the heck of a time trying to find a position because she has a PhD from a very well-known institution. Thank you. Don't forget to reveal the name. And she actually served as a postdoc there for a few years. And I think as a result, when she started trying to apply and going to user experience, they treated her as though she was radioactive because nothing says, don't employ me because I don't understand industry better than a PhD and a postdoc. I think the very fact that we are at a conference where it's eloquently been stated that we constantly are seeing shifts in the industry and the people who are the vanguard of seeing these changes in fact are ushering in these changes through their experiments, through their demonstrations, through their explorations, its academics and its academia and its students. And the fact that somebody with a doctor and postdoctoral experience would be seen as a person not hydrable in the field of user experience is absolutely crazy. So she and I worked on a game plan and actually as a result it worked out thankfully and she landed a position. The other thing I'll mention is there's a trend that I have been seeing and this is over probably the last decade where some industrial organizations, some companies are using academic experience as a proxy for learning how to live life as an adult. So back when I worked at Landmark College we referred to this as the hidden curriculum. Nobody's going to put it on a rubric that you're expected to play well with each other or that you're expected to not cheat in. Usually that's in the academic code of conduct. But one thing a lot of folks in industry I believe don't have a good understanding in is that when we go to college or university we're not being explicitly trained in how to work well with others. But I know many companies that for example require a master's degree just to get in doesn't necessarily mean a master's in design or master's in research but a master's because that serves as a proxy for maturity for how to act in a company. The fact that we're looking at advanced degrees as proxies for maturity makes me nervous primarily because I'm an educator and I know how hard it is to have as part of your rubric what group work looks like, what timeliness looks like, what putting in a fair contribution on your project looks like. So I'd love to see a better fusion between industry and academia as we try to solve these soft curricular challenges in addition to the hard ones like the new advanced topics that are coming up. So I look forward to chat. I'm smiling because I'm trying to think of what I can add. She's so great. You can subtract. That's fine. Yeah, subtract. No, actually I asked you to pass the mic to Sheppie because I looked into the closer. So my name's Meenette Kosar-Dravan and I'm from Austin, Massachusetts in the United States. And thinking about my experience in the 27-year qualitative research practitioner I worked with my partners, I was a leading in Boston for twigging-fisher research practice. And I also teach at that university in the graduate program for team factors and commissions. I'm trying to think about what has just been stated in the three of you. And I realize our program was established very differently because it was intentionally established with the sheer expectation of wanting to bridge the gap between faculty and industries. So it's largely made of non-full-time people. So I'm an adjunct. They're not their full-time. But I've been with them in the institution for 18 years now. And we've really built a program round out to make sure that what we're delivering is pretty much what we're doing. So when I actually look back at the way I've taught my course, I can see how my lot has evolved. So back to what Sheppie was saying earlier is I love the course because I think I learn more than actually what my students do. And I always tell them that pretty overly as well. But it's a good feeling to know that we're sort of evolving the practice but also taking that input from students and really putting it back to the program but also putting it back in the practice since it was continuing this sort of vicious circle of sorts. But I think what's been very, very almost apparent because I don't worry about where we stand in comparison to other colleges and universities around the world that I really don't bother about that. But more importantly what I think is really apparent is it's really important for people to feel a sense of just overall process of what they're learning and be able to actually map that to something that they can just start with as a baseline when they go into industry. And then our ask is and at least I know definitely my ask is I'm pretty confident my colleagues do the same thing there is challenge everything. So I always feel bad when students come up to me in Ohio and I'm a student and I knew and I don't really know that much and I'm always like yeah, that's awesome because that means your job is to challenge people like us but there are a lot, a lot because we can get complacent in our beliefs sometimes and I think it's really important as a student to know that that is your role and you have all the right to challenge us. And I love that because I think as we see that with our students just giving them that baseline makes a huge difference in them being able to say you know I've started out with this and I realize that some of this stuff might have you two or hey it's a little bit different if you're in industry you know A, B or C. So I think that's the part that has been very impactful in terms of my experience and I hope that continues and I hope people and I've now seen some of the students that I started with 18 years ago who were teachers in the practice and they were saying amazing things and they come back to my classroom and they share things and they're like I used to sit here and I used to wonder I don't know anything and now I'm out there saying things and I would encourage all of you to do that as well to go out and share your thought don't ever feel like well who want to hear this because it's always good to even hear the most basic of the messages by anybody because it's the first to hear those words. Great. I look like literally by year. Okay. So I'm going to raise a question up to when each of you could address that in any way do you feel a defect? No. All of you have gone back and forth between industry and academia. Each of you separately what's one thing you've noticed lacking in academia is they need to fix as far as this interface is concerned and one thing that is lacking in industry that they need to fix that could help raise this gap. It could be any. It could be the most or least important from whatever it spends tomorrow. If you want to wait and think you could pass it wherever and then then you could subtract from that. Yeah. So culturally if you see going to school colleges is always about studying and so we study the subject matter expertise so we would probably go ahead and study science in this case we all go to a design school and study design so and all of us sitting here we would know that design is all about crafting and creating user interfaces wireframes and visual design and series of screens and putting them into the mobile and mocking the designs and then you get the feedback and probably you have a jury everything goes well but that doesn't happen in the industry when the industry and the customer comes in he would be having a business problem and very rarely it has happened very few students get the opportunity to go to an actual customer and really understand the pain points and then the output may not necessarily be an app or a website that typically gets as an assignment to the students so I would encourage students to really push your professors or go out yourself to get hold of a real customer than a real design problem that they are facing and they want a designer to probably help them because they don't know what they really mean and they want a food delivery app or a a rental app and what not today that I see as assignments that students come up with so that's number one number two is also about the timelines as I mentioned for a small app it takes about four months to deliver probably that's an assumption but that's not what happens in the industry so timelines are very important today so most of the students will be hired they are good in their you know design skills but when it comes to being able to pull there I wish today there is a major wealth of designers in the industry and if there's a designer whom I see oh he's awesome but if I put him on a real life project I have to hold back because one is the business understanding the business and ability to talk to the customer and have conversations and number two is the timelines this needs to be done in one month because the vigilante timelines the launch period what not how sensitivity what's the sensitivity that you have towards being able to plan research maybe a week maybe a two can't go for a month for example so maybe the professors as well as designers should start working into business understanding and the project management understanding of it these are the two pieces which will make you extremely successful in your interviews when you go and attend an interview in the industry design anyways you are designers that's your forte we are anyway hiring you for that but these two pieces according to me are very important for you to start learning push your on the ask your professors to start teaching fundamentals of project management and business management so what I came to academic is in the industry because generally what happens in out of my experience I was into branding I was into publication I came into visual effects I was doing a lot of interaction projects and those are very different nature and in that all nature I find whenever designers come as a road they find it difficult to fit into the work in a team and which is very important when I come to the academic I find the students they are taking it very kind of in the world of course you are a protected world you also think very imaginative but also as mentioned that you have to understand the time you have to understand how to work within the team because as an industry you are not alone it is my idea I will post my idea and somebody is not understanding me all that does not work you have to see what is the culture there as a industry and what is the demand there and you have to make your space that is more important and that is also you have to make it in such a way that others should accept you and that is how you grow up and that is very important I think we are sitting right now it is very nice that in the future also this will help and we it is a continuous process I understand it is not that we just discussing and that is it we might we might be we know as a management says that okay if you found the problem that is your half this you have solved the problem but what is the next step what we are going to do I think therefore I am concerned and we should you also mentioned that if what is what we expect from the academics what is that industry could do so I remember that maybe it is too much of okay students don't do this and students don't do that that is not the point the point is also that the industry could also do lot more when it turns coming most of the time what I have noticed is the the intent starts from let's say 1st of January as to okay what should I do and usually the industry does this right the intent has come so let him you know just assign him any project assign him as an assistant to any project 2-3 months upon by and they don't even know that okay what do they learn but if the professor the student and the industry mentor could come together and chop up a plan that okay this is what he or she would learn that would be awesome and again I am saying number 2 whether you are going for an internship interview or a job interview equally responsible are you for you should interview the interviewer really is he the right mentor for me is he going is he or she of course has the basic knowledge to groom me in the industry because there are not lot more experts in the market people who have who know that oh yes is very important or you are your designer come join my team but in the process they may benefit but you may not so I would say one month that I would leave this my case start interviewing the person who is also interviewing that will benefit you a lot what have the look of fear and alarm and shock and dismay I am actually it is a difficult question for me to answer because the gaps that you are citing we have already solved for maybe you can address I mean why don't you talk about if that is fair just drop it right so the way so I can speak to the way we do I also know how other institutions do in the United States and Canada but the way we have really built this program is based on a very strong bridge with the outside community and in what form does that take the bridge so in my course I am just about the quality of research course and in my course it is actually conducting research from start to finish so I told my students I am like when you come to the course you know buckle up get ready to go because we are going to basically be learning everything we need to do to leave this place so if somebody approaches you and says I have a research question and I need answers you exactly want to do and everybody started like yeah sure but at the end that is totally what they can do the reason is and have people bring in their actual problems so sometimes it will be a nonprofit sometimes it will be a startup that maybe can't afford larger services for research I get them involved in our program we also have a larger company like Wal-Mart and some people like that as well which have you know they always pose different issues but we make sure that the stakeholders can join us in the classroom we make sure that the students have a chance to learn how to ask questions at those stakeholders and that in and of itself is a huge learning and they actually have to conduct all of the research with the minimum you know end and sample that we've set forth as part of the stipulations of the program and they actually have to conduct the research come up with findings present the report and then actually present it to that panel of stakeholders so we have them come back visit with us students present to them I'm just basically a proxy putting it all together but what's been very very impactful is students do go now a sample project for their portfolio but one that they can actually speak to very personally at a very personal level in terms of the process that they've gone through in terms of the challenges that they experienced in terms of the learning that they've come up with which I think is one of the most beautiful things for me personally to watch because it's great to see people go through that journey so in some ways a lot of the things that you're calling out they're very doable I think what has to happen and I don't mean this disrespectfully at all but what has to happen is everybody all the egos have to be dropped when you actually try to connect people together people from the industry shouldn't come into academia with a bit of a hey I know all this stuff so you better have something good to show me and vice versa you know academia shouldn't be like really academic right so I think that is a really really important thing that I've noticed that's made our program the most successful I know with my course I really appreciate what we've made with all the people that have come into the program they're excited because sometimes they can go down inside people when they get the students they know the students are just so fired up to do the work that the quality of the work that they actually produce is outstanding so it's sort of a very very successful course and honestly that's why I teach that may I like an aggressive TV talk show host inject another skepticism into the proceedings and by two you've achieved the holy grail of everybody dropping the egos and two how do you prepare them for any situation I mean whatever happened to life long learning just in time learning all those other possibilities I think about anybody who attended my session I sort of the dance to the turn around so I basically tell people this is what I do this is the way I'm sorry so you call it and that's what you have to do but you basically you're you're bringing in that reality because I'm not I'm not just purely academic in fact I'm less academic than I am more practitioner so sometimes when people are like yeah I don't we have people in our course who are actually part-time part-time practitioners themselves who sort of come back for a graduate degree and sometimes they'll be like yeah but it doesn't work this way in my organization my question is why so I don't mind asking that question I also don't mind calling it out when so you either be miserable the way you're doing the work or you can do something about it and that's a choice that you have to make it depends on how much you want to advocate for yourself and for the profession and for the processes that are all involved and those are hard questions to answer and sometimes it does put people on the spot but I never said I was a nice professor I just said I was a professor so you got to put yourself out that tension is always going to be there but I also believe that tension does need to need to solution so I feel like you're a better closer no no and then he you know you wish yeah I wish um now I I've been thinking about this the whole time and really the I think on the on the academia side I would like to see more what I would call cognitive flexibility as part of the intentional curriculum I think I think academia has a has a has a wrap it's a bad wrap and it's earned for teaching the right way and in industry especially companies that use both words like agile lean just in time often the answer is we don't have time we don't have resources also the right way doesn't work so that's clearly not the right way so you have to invent a new way I think academia spends a lot of time teaching the right way and not enough time allowing exploration of other ways I think that's where the egos come in on the academia side I think there's a huge opportunity for academia to change there on the flip side I think that industry has a demand to be more transparent and more visible and clear about what the expectations are that they need for a specific position or a specific field one thing that comes to mind is every semester when I teach I always have a situation where a student I have a pretty hardcore policy in terms of when things are due and when I will no longer accept anything no excuses no extensions don't care and my reasoning is because you know on day one when everything is due and you can decide is this a priority or is it not I have had students who have had crazy health situations and all that and I'm like it sounds like you made the right priority you prioritized right you're going to get a zero on this assignment but I'm glad that your family is healthy and okay you're with them industry needs to make clear that expectations for things like prioritization are critical and what does prioritization look like I don't think we have good examples of that but we always talk about stack ranking and things like that so that's a clear expectation and there's one other expectation I think this makes us all susceptible to biases and I think Mina you're talking about it it's the ego notion of as an academic I know truth when I see it and as an industry person as an industry expert I know somebody who can kill this job in reality if I can't articulate exactly what I'm looking for including the fact that your portfolio has white space I don't like or you mumbled during your presentation or I get that you understand all the book learning but I don't want book learning I want people who've proven that different approaches have worked I don't think we in industry have done a great job of making those clear I think we've done a great job of saying you need to know the following skills and the following things I might even put something in there that says flexible thinking but I think we're not being honest in terms of what we're truly looking for which why there's such a gap when students are looking for jobs and why I often find myself saying you know maybe instead of a job immediately you should be looking at some contract opportunities or some non-profit NGO work where you can just demonstrate that you've done this stuff because I don't know that we in industry really know how to articulate what we're looking for we just kind of know it when we see it and that's where the bias is creeped in okay great now before we continue yeah that's if we maybe a little round of Q&A and then we can come back and have another round like this okay so questions or comments and we'll start with Natchike if you can just keep it short either it's a comment or statement or a question and keep it short and if you want a response you can specify if you want it from any one of these panelists transportation and product design done a lot of activities in user experience okay I have a small take in terms of whatever we were discussing in the gaps domain major thing is that we distinctly see a divide between India and the West where as you rightly said you have evolved your methods of teaching and also the industry has evolved and both of them have evolved together so that gap is a big gap to breach and it will be good that we learn quickly and take that jump having said that in India I think the perception about UX is skewed so that needs to be corrected first so that is a big gap who is responsible for that? both both so when you talk about UX you talk about apps and screens it's not that so when the the academy also talks about it or the industry also wants people from that background or that skill that's also is a big problem so there's a lot of UX work which is done and been required in product and transportation design so if you want to have a good product or a good automobile there's a whole hell lot of research which goes on which can be termed as UX so that is the first perception issue the lines are definitely blurring second point is skills and thinking so between the two in the academics you have to build skills and you have to build the thinking component so these two gaps also has to be distinctly seen and addressed background of students is also getting equally important because since the blurring or the reduction of engineering as a field is going down design is emerging so what kind of students should come for design is important a preview to that is people should start young so the academia and industry should really go back to school in terms of before 10th 10th grade at least to sensitize people about what is design that will help people to have better user experience designers as we go along so that is another thing so another bad thing which is happening according to my perception is since the engineering has lost its sheen almost all engineering schools want to start design so every engineering school in India today has a design department it's not a school so they start with 30 students or 60 schools and only two departments gets established one is UX which is attached to computer science department and product design which is attached to mechanical engineering so this also is a very very distinct shift in India which is seen all across the country so that also at times is a scary thing but at times it is big potential for all of us who are in the field to give them a right direction so that gap is absolutely outstanding just in a place like Pune where there are 50 engineering colleges 25 of them have started design schools just this year so just imagine the chaos which has been there I'm only talking about Pune under Pune University and all the private universities which are coming up so that gap is very very important last thing sorry I'm being very long the industry projects as classroom projects is the need of the R not the internships or the projects that will come there's no problem over that you should have small projects which the industry also should come out with and the students should do so the industry should come with projects and give them to students small small projects small small projects not the complete project then there is another thing from the management side of the design schools is the syndrome of gray or no hair so I'll explain gray or no hair so yeah no hair and gray hair so typically what happens is in the traditional teaching methodology experts are supposed to be old UX as a field itself is very young so the management or the design schools also should accept this is a cultural problem cultural problem the school also should accept that even if a user experience designer who has worked only 10 years is good enough to give gyan to the coming up generation because it's that information which is now and then so that's the I think thanks a lot does anybody want to respond or encourage like myself I encourage the students to do the real projects because the real projects give you what is the real project get the project from the industry but may not be real in the terms of believable to the client but as a real as a breed and that work not a toy problem sort of thing but it will be like actually they work on the real projects and they might get the feedback from the actual client also so and this way if you encourage in everywhere I mean it happens sometimes I have taken it initiative like that but many many of them they are not very comfortable with that I think we should encourage that as a industry also to come forward and give it the project to the student because industry always think that okay we are not very much we have time bound so maybe the time bound is real it's a reality but within that also if we can manage it will be good and one more thing is like actually if I say it's a the old story of the hair and rabbit tortoise and rabbit that's the whole story right and now we should talk about who's rabbit and who's tortoise and who's running fast but we should together we should talk about the situation and how to cope with that and we can run fast and together we build up the whole community as well as the fortinity okay great thank you I was just going to add to that if I may actually offer what we've already learned from so you can avoid this you should be heading the task force on transforming industry academia relations I would actually just amend your statement a little bit by saying don't just ask them to give a project with the industry and do not have the industry take that finding a series thing make it real when you actually connect with the industry have them say we have students they're going to do the work and you can actually use it because if we don't make it real nobody's invested the students don't take it seriously and neither does the industry but when both have to take it seriously and the data is actually going to be used so I know I'm speaking about research but you could be speaking about design or whatever it is make sure everybody knows that data is going to be used by those stakeholders so you got to pull your pants up are there any success stories I mean later on that you could share that with some of our folks in India the academia so we could learn from some of the experiences you have at the institution I could go on, I'll be back 15 years it's good that we've learned since you seem to have cracked this particular issue I think it's really just it's getting everybody on board and not being dogmatic about the processes because Steve already mentioned academia can be dogmatic sometimes can be I mean I want to be polite because sometimes we have to be empathic to academia as well so there are times sometimes when we end up in a situation and sometimes you just have to call it out and say there's a better way to do this but for people to be having that willingness to listen and it's been a lot of trial and error for us as well so it's not like we just figured this all out in one day but the nice part about it is we took it very seriously we got feedback from our partners in the industry I'm in the industry so it's also reflects on my personal brand and my brand and my organization so I invested a lot of my personal time and it's honestly just a lot of time investment but you need to set the boundaries to make sure that everybody who comes to the table does take it seriously and often there's really great things that come out of it students sometimes their names are exposed to the people who are receiving the reports and the next thing you know I found out the students have been hired because they were just so loud by the quality of the work and that story goes around and they become an alumni and an alumni comes back and talks and it just sort of self-propagating kind of thing so there's lots to learn there's lots I can share but I would just amend it by saying everybody's got to take it seriously because if you say there's no final report that they're really looking at then we all know what we're going to do if I may yeah we've got 10 more minutes we would like to hear from some of the young people here students and others yes just your name which institution you're with and then whatever you want to say hi I'm Meru I'm a fourth year student of design at Tripuru office they expect you to do a job and where I'm coming at is the way you have the roles in the corporates today so by the time you come with all your design thinking and research and this is the problem and that's how I should solve it and you go to a corporate and then they say that you know design the website and then you're like okay and you're coming back to what nobody wanted designed to be the kind of design we used to criticize at school and that's what you do until you settle down there and becomes the status quo and then when you become team lead you are just like that and I don't know that's what I feel how was that bucket of cold water huh anybody wants to react or respond before you we'll come to you as I said interview the interviewer you will know quickly whether this fellow can take my life or my career ahead so do that is my advice to you and I'll keep it short because I have more questions in the very last time yeah was it you since a lot of you just talked about design schools and design thinking and quite a lot and you people seem to have influence about design quite a bit I just want to make one point to you all where it's appeal to you all of you because we preach that accessibility should begin at design and one of the things we are trying to solve is the development perspective is introducing the accessibility at the development colleges and universities but actually inclusive design and universal design should actually be taught in the design schools itself so you people should actually play a role to emphasize on this and disseminate the information and make sure you all taught the inclusive design right where you start the design courses okay thank you so did you have anything I'm a transportation design student I'm in fourth grade but I last year I went to Seoul for an whole year and there I had live projects like you said I had live project with Hyundai and I felt this difference going from here to there you know the professors and everyone at the design school there was very much indulging us into going doing more like real projects based on with the actual companies and here it's more like conceptual so you come up with a brief that's like in 2030 and you come up with a concept get it ready but at the same time when we come up with the design and we show it to the companies the company say that oh this is really vague you know we won't provide you internships based on this and you can expect a pay on this so it's like exploiting the design students here that graduate so I would just like to know your opinion on you know undergraduates here and if I apply for a master's here would that be beneficial for me or not Shakri you want to take that or you want to take that and maybe educate too I think if you want to go ahead for masters I think you should unless young people like you want to explore and definitely there are new things also there in India also and our institute also doing lot of things so it's not that we are having in a we are also going agile with the industry we are trying to incorporate many things along with that so I think if you go ahead no one should stop you and you can you too can speak to that too you know Stephen if you want to I think you should ask your mind if you feel you need to do it here you do it here if it's your call I think we can't answer for you you can move on we will take care do that offline anybody else I am Rahul from my mind graduation project internships so when I deal with the companies I usually receive the requirement related with not specifically for UX like I receive requirement related with like there is a requirement for UI UX so when we share requirement with the students with the product design, with UX design with graphic design so we have that problem with the with the industry they are not sharing the requirement specifically like whether they have UX or UI or so you are saying that the recruiters are not clear about what they really want yeah definitely because like what I am like getting from the industry they have a requirement for UI UX not specifically UI or UX but is this widespread yes anybody wants to speak to that is this a systemic problem that there are requirements from what industries looking for is a great example here I also think you are looking at the inner sausage making factory of how people get hired at companies and fortunately there are too many roles involved that are not necessarily talking with each other one small point about what I am seeing at least out in the Bay Area in the United States is that over time when you see UI that has become code for front end and so if you see UI slash UX a lot of times people are trying to get a twofer or what I would call the mythical unicorn I don't believe unicorns exist I think that is I won't say that word on recording so Mina can say the word she said the word so I think what you need to do is call them out and play the prioritization game and say so when you are hiring for this role what will be the majority of my work so if you had to stack rank I am assuming from the UI UX UI came first for a reason and are you hiring me because you really need two people and you are going to try to get it with one which just makes your life terrible it also makes everybody disappointed I think kind of what Prasad was saying having that candid conversation reversing that interview role is really critical and the one other thing I will pitch is take advantage of the relationships you have with people to find others who aren't directly within the interview chain to understand what it's like to work in that organization so find another person who is working in UI UX and say what the heck is this I think I honestly just would can't add to that anymore like ditto exactly in the couple of minutes we have do you want to say anything pertaining to this whole matter I mean is there any comments you have closing comments 15 seconds 30 seconds joke is acceptable can't tell there we go you can think about it 30 seconds so I think it's not the question of UX or UI it's not the question of because UX is everywhere any design it has to be user experience but what I want to say that we have to increase the level level of the faculties faculties in terms of principally what is happening in India there are a lot of many design institutes are mushrooming like anything ok but there's no faculties there's no good faculties ok why because you give that you know the dignity also is not there that level of the teaching as a dignity and when the industry people comes to that obviously they come as a part time they won't come as a full time but there are people who have interacted they are interested to come back but they won't be paid as a good pay package I also myself I came into lower pay package because I was doing great ok so how many people are actually interested in this coming to that and how can we raise the level so that the design education get the level and it is not for the design but it is for the industry because you are these students only going to the industry so I think we all have to work on the some kind of dignity as well as the discipline as well as the level of the educator any 10 seconds 15 seconds yeah I know Rahul is here from MIT and probably there are more students from MIT and I am from Pune so we can have a good collaboration opportunity I will take this platform to suggest that I love when I come and teach it is fun because it is always nice to give we take a lot from the industry but it is nice to give to the students especially when they ask questions I am open for a weekend catch up so you know since he is the industry liaison Pester Rahul to say ok let's have a schedule with huge designs in Pune and 10 students could come and we could choose a topic I will be more than happy to do that becomes very difficult for me to get you know drop my industry hat and then wear my student you know sorry a teacher hat and then come to MIT all the way to Lonik Alwar and do that and say oh I am available for teaching oh but students are not there in the campus on Saturdays but if you guys are interested I am all for it I will be more than happy to give my time there did you have something to say Mina anybody did you ok you have the last and final word go ahead oh yeah I was right I am starting to get the sultry voice here as I hear from you all and this is one of the reasons why I love coming here so much I think growth mindset is really important so never stop learning that goes for all of us don't give up when people tell you are doing something wrong in fact challenge all the assumptions you are getting and take advantage of your network we are all here we are all part of this community of user experience and let's go do some awesome things ok thanks for that thank you Mina, thank you Steve, thank you Prasad, thank you Shakti a round of applause for