 Welcome to pigments the power of imagination season something episode whatever I think it's four and seven respectively but it's gonna be a great show I know this already because my guests, well, you'll hear about a minute second. I'm here. We're here to entertain inspire got a story titled. Imagine the ghost of give, because the ghost of key was a supposedly Ukrainian fighter pilot, why neither the mid 29 or the suit 27 in heroic fashion turned out to be a myth. But we have the first Western pilot ever to qualify in the suit 27 flaker. More than that in a second I just want to thank all of our viewers because last episode of figments the power of imagination. was the most watched ever by a long margin. In fact, we actually beat the movie top gun maverick two to one. Unbelievable. We had 2000 viewers. They only made $1 billion. Okay, we made zero dollars but it was a lot of fun and it's a good movie. So we're going to build on that. Now. We've done that by talking about flying the suit 27 and putting it into context with the Russian invasion of Ukraine because our guests have a unique opportunity to gain insight to Russia, Russian culture in the Russian military. They will hope with we share with that. I got an email from a friend of mine who saw that episode and said, he said, and this is for you bull reos. He said, you need more pretty faces on your, your shows. Well, that's not us we're not just, we're not pretty faces, but we do other things me and my guest, Major General Atari Dallas Thompson recently wrote an article I commend to you. The US must counter collective nuclear blackmail available and real clear defense more on that later. But we're serious guys and with that, let me welcome Dallas Thompson Major General retired US Air Force. Hey Dallas law. Hey sir, how are you. Good. Glad to see you've gone with the law. Sure. When in Hawaii virtually do what the Hawaiians do I suppose. Yeah, how's the weather in Texas is that human. We talked to sometime last week when you just come in from a couple hours of your hard work I thought I might lose you, frankly. Well, it's Hawaii. So we're fine. Boy you've had an exciting life flying the Air Force flying with the Navy and flying the Russians here it's a picture of you in action during your society. You're exciting life. It looks like you're just on the edge of your seat but in a different way than normal. Right. That was the party the first night that after they picked us up at the airport when we got to Shikovsky. And it was, I described it as an international invitational vodka swallowing contest. My only. My only defense is that it was about two o'clock in the morning I walked out of the dining room under my own power until I got to that bank of chairs. They carried Sergey out so I consider that a moral victory victory. In this endeavor that we're going to talk about you were trying to provide capability to the United States Air Force United States Navy for this similar air combat training and I'd like to take a minute to explain that to people in our last episode. We talked about the difference between top gun the Navy weapons school and the Air Force fighter weapons school. Whether the Air Force version being more an inclusion of academics, etc, etc. Top gun focused on fighting against different airplanes, then why is that important, because they're different airplanes, not just in terms of capability but merely visually. If you're not looking at one airplane that's or two or three or four, that's friendly, looking differently from the bad guys, it's very hard to simulate the combat environment. Another thing was a lesson learned from air combat in Vietnam that the first time you see a mid bad, you know the bad guys. There's a bit of buck feet, a bit of shock to the system and seeing that and the reaction isn't helpful for survival. Both services pursued dissimilar air combat training they used a variety of airplanes, like the F5 like the A4 son from Israel, Kaphirs, I've got a story book for years. But it's always been a challenge and it's a challenge that continues today they just stood up the first F35 aggressor squadron. But Dallas, you had a chance to provide some real dissimilar air combat training with frontline airplanes that were leased from from the Russian government. Right. How did this happen. How did this start. Well, remember in the piece dividend, one of the one of the first things that went with the budget cuts was the aggressor squads. Yep. After the wall went down, Russian test pilots began attending society of experimental test pilot conventions in the United States. This program came together because of the guy the skipper that hired me into VX for years before was that right the Navy exchange was at this set P convection, and he met a, what was going to be a Russian cosmonaut on their, their are equivalent of the space shuttle. I named Sergei Tresvetsky. And they put together this straw man for a aggressor program wherein a company would we would lease dry lease make 29s or rescue 27s. I eventually as a chief pilot would be chartered with getting reserve and guard pilots to fly them in the program, and then we would sell this program, not just to the Air Force and the Navy but worldwide. And so it all began all would take on a whole new meeting. Right. Oh, man. When you first heard this concept, we'll talk about how you got involved when you did. What, what did you say in faith in language we can tolerate. Well, you see, I, it can't be in language that we can say, but I can, I can paraphrase the, the original ask was would I be willing to put together the operational framework and build a briefing that described it. And then basically on my, on my own dime, just would I and then the thing was if this goes forward, then the full time employment would be you being one of the aggressor pilots, you and, and that was kind of important because you've just been furloughed from the airlines who were noticed the Air Force reserve. Right. I just found out I was going to be furloughed so I had about four or five months to find a job because food's important. It's a play role that played a role in this Russian interest in this contract you were dealing with Russian engineers and pilots and maintainers that because the end of the Cold War were looking for work. They were out of work, and they had, they were all basically it was like the Wild West. These entire, you know, the premier flight, the equivalent of Edwards Air Force based right in the center was left to its own devices to go figure out how to make money. So that they were. Yeah, they were still on the government payroll but there's no pay in the role. There's no pay and they found work, Roger. So they were left to go out and become entrepreneurial themselves, which is what this program was an example. Wow. It's hard to imagine that the shock to the system for somebody who's been on the, you know, part of the Soviet Soviet structure. Everything's guaranteed, and they're kind of at the top of the Soviet structure in terms of status and probably relatively money. And now there will fly for food. Absolutely were and that just, that just tightened the shock as far as our perception of dealing with them they, you know, here we are we used to be, you know, a year ago, we were at the top of the pyramid and now we're out, you know, begging for, for work out from the west so we had to be a real example of necessity is the mother mother invention. So I was in an event today where we honored somebody who serves one of the charities I work with the arm service YMCA quiet. And I talked about the transition to why and one of the things I've learned here is be nice, because you never know how you're going to intersect. And this story of potentially making this deal is the matter of friendship, which has formed in your circles with the Navy when you were a Navy exchange pilot or exchange Air Force exchange pilot with the Navy. And folks if you can hear the blinds rattling in the background sorry it's a little windy and wind, and also credibility. And I want to hit that because, because frankly I think society's lost sight of that. The beautiful thing about being a fire pod is, you got to be able to fly. You have credibility with the Navy. Navy credibility with you. These were very credible aviators on the Russian side. And without that, nobody would have been interested. I agree. And, as I said, the guy that reached out to me on this program was skipper ospears and the same guy that asked me to go and so he and I were known to each other. So I think there was a level of comfort. And on his part that they could trust me to not only come in and put something together but get the right group of guys around us to man the thing once it went down. Yeah, and pull it off. So, you have this concept and now it's up to you and a guy named Broadway for Rosie one of your colleagues from BX for I think it was. Yes, and you're going to go to Russia. Get checked out in the suit 27, and then you're going to fly to Singapore for an air show and demonstrate to everybody what a cool idea this is. What is that right. That was the plan part of it came came to fruition. And we'll get to that in a second. The flying to Singapore from the outskirts of Moscow. First of all, intrigues me folks go, go to Google maps and look at the countries that are between here and there, not to mention the mountains like the Himalayas. It's what an idea what an adventure this had to be this had to be just even thinking about this had to have a twilight zone element to it. Oh, I told you I think I mentioned before you know we're, we're flying and we're on final. It's on a Delta airplane out of New York on final into Moscow. And it was just all surreal. I, and I made the comment that I felt like Captain Kirk on his first visit to the Klingon homeworld it just didn't seem. It didn't seem real it's didn't seem right but very quickly. And just a matter of days things settle down and, and there were some, you know, one off things that we would, we would have happened to us and so forth it would remind us that it's not the same. But it, it began to swat begin to swing more towards normal. And we became relatively comfortable quickly. For those who didn't live it. It's hard to explain how seismic the shift was, because you were an F15 pilot in your first assignment at Bitburg Air Base Germany, the job of the 36th fighter wing right. Right. Bitburg was to shoot down Soviet airplanes defending your when we as we all knew they would the Soviets invaded the Warsaw Pact. And that was your focus is a young F4 pilot, I was a nuke strike pilot, my job was to go drop a nuclear weapon on a classified target on the other side of the line. That was our life. And you, perhaps until Russian invaded Ukraine, it was, it's been unimaginable for 25 or three years. We made that shift from the imaginal imaginable to the unimaginable in a few months. Wow. So that was the concept, you're, you're going to do that you're all set to do that but what I think our viewers really want to hear about is what it was like to fly the suit 27 banker, before we talked about that. Let me plug the, perhaps more serious episode we're going to do at some point time to be announced but please watch for it. So, Jeff Fidel, the President CO and one of the founders of think tech life is going to interview Dallas and I and talk about this thing we think is very collective nuclear blackmail. Imagine, just imagine so please keep an eye open for that I'll be back with pigments in two weeks. Another interesting episode, my government ordered me to bomb Hawaii. Okay, Dallas. Let's talk about flying the mighty flanker and you had to go through a lot to get there in a demanding environment. One of the pictures you provided me is this no escape. That looks cold brother. It was cold. It looks very cold. It looks cold and it's got. It's so iconic all the Russian previously Soviet aircraft strewn kind of strewn about on the flight line. One of the dichotomies that I mentioned to you before is you look at that snow scape. And then when we went out to do our first walk around of the airplane out on the ramp. It was immaculate. The wheel wells, you know, everything was, it was pristine cockpit was pristine. It's a, I mean, it's a big airplane, it's bigger than the Tomcat, but it, it is a sleek, it's a pretty let's let's talk a little more about that because that's kind of shocking in a second before we do that. I think all this involved a lot of preparation briefing academics, and this picture and socialization you talked about the international consumption competition whatever you call it. So you did that, you met a guy, this guy. Sergey, and I'm going to try to pronounce his name again, Sergey help me out. This is Tres Vietzky Tres Vietzky. In an article I saw you wrote about this experience. You made a comment that intrigued me you said you soon became best friends but he didn't speak any or very good friends. Very little he didn't speak any English and that resonated because I've been through that with a couple guys in Vietnam, including one of their aces one of their six kill aces where we don't share a common language but he has warriors, aviators. Doesn't matter. Tell me just a bit about the friendship with Sergey. Well, again, as I told you he was the business partner. He was not our instructor pilot, another guy named right watch instructor pilot. But because of that, we met with Sergey almost every day and as it turned out, as we got into this. And it was apparent that all of these challenges that we were having with our training that no dash one or natops manual no no books, no books, we're having a book free training environment in and and everything Sergey was really in his translator the lady Galena Sakarova that was in this picture. And it was really in forward to try to make this work now this was not. I mean, it's in their own self interest to have this. But they, and when we realized how much they were actually pushing as far as they could on their side to get some things done. And that that gained trust on our part that you do you still stay in touch with Sergey. No we lost touch, we lost touch a few, a few years ago, many years after this they came and visited us, he and Galena came and visited us when we had a place down in Marvel Falls and we stay close for a while but we lost touch. So I had a moment with senior Vietnamese official and I was director of the CSS or speaking in he didn't speak English is deputy was a great guy. But I said to the principal through his translator. You know, 40 years ago today as it happened was the heaviest bombing of Vietnam by the US and here we are making peace and cooperating and the translator translated and then his deputy who spoke speaks perfect English with John. John said, I know because 40 years ago I was sitting on a 57 millimeter anti aircraft, so shooting it American or 57 millimeter aircraft say shooting American airplanes and so well that's interesting because I've been shot at by 57 millimeter in a aircraft not from the Vietnamese but I bet we have a whole different view of that dealio. And there's a humanity matters more than previous. And typically whatever you think you know the old warriors there's a value to old warriors meeting. You go through all this as you said it was a book free environment, you know, most of the training programs that I've been involved with involved manuals and diagrams the airplane. Alice did you have that. We did not. Now I've got one sitting I've got one now. Do you know after we were done they handed me a the flight manual and said here you go. Now that you're done. Now that we're done but no we didn't so it was. But we made it work. And, yeah, literally broadly and I would sit and diagram, whatever the session was what hydraulics electrical system whatever we diagram we show it to the tech and say is we. Wow. I hope you can draw because I can't. So, on the left on the screen folks is the, then we're working that problem, but on the right is a guy with a camera, because the flip side of the entrepreneurial entrepreneurial spirit of necessity and the friendship from Sergey and going etc. Is the suspicion you were under. So you were filmed constantly. That guy met us that guy met us at customs. And he was pretty much everywhere we went. The tick tock generation Mike think that was cool that would be cool for me for about, I know 3040 seconds. Yeah, it got old. Wow. And you were under suspicion, not Sergey but others thought that you were. The CIA operatives sent there to basically spy from in the cockpit. This, this came out at when we're getting ready. I'm getting ready to make my first flight the first flight so I was going to go. Kovachar and I had already briefed the hop, everything we're ready to go on putting on my G suit and get my harness and now and so forth. And one of the aeronautical engineers that worked for Sergey, a guy named the silly awkward may have walked into life support there and had had his head down and wouldn't look and I knew something was going on and then he said, Hey, you guys have got to realize that to all of these flights, you need to fly in the backseat. Instead of the front seat instead of the great upon as agreed upon. And that's when I looked up at the ceiling and and he said that's, that's, that's it. And I started taking off my G suit and hanging up my gear and I looked over at Sergey and I said that cancels the contract that cancels everything. We're going back to the, they had a billeted in a GB generals resort spa. We're going back to the spa and work on our getting our way home. Sergey went and talked to the, the, the head of the research Institute at Gromov. And basically work to deal that if we agreed to fly the first flight in the backseat, Kovacir would then go to this guy the director was a guy named Constantine, the, the silching cut. And Kovacir would go and give him a thumbs up as to whether we really were pilots. We weren't spies. We, I wish we had more time we'll do more time on this later probably Sunday. But Kovacir is Anatoly Kovacir, your instructor pilot as it turns out he and Sergey are the principles in two of the most watched ejection sequences. Yes, in the world. I'm a MIG 29 that as a right engine stall all stag at the Paris air show and Anatoly from his airplane being cut in half by another MIG 29 at British air show. Did that cause you any concern. No, I said both in in high profile ejection. I've got our attention but I would Broadway and I both said we, we paid a lot of attention to our ejection seat training. Roger when we finally, when we finally got it. Okay, so there's so much to talk about here but eventually you fly to backseat one front seat ride. One, one backseat, one backseat, three, three front seat, three front seat. Okay, sorry, three front seat. That's right. So, tell me about flying the Su 27 flanker from how the cockpit just talked to another player I'm with with you in the old club part and I think Dallas you flew the plank or tell me about it. You know, I wouldn't just say tell me about it there'd be another word beautiful airplane. Good things bad things big bubble canopy visibility was bad in all quarters the head box of the ejection seat was about this big. They wanted you to sit the ejection seat so low, or it was a CG type thing so you can meet it 00 requirements. But when you put it there, the stick grip was so far above your lap you couldn't rest your elbow on your knee to fly. So I did that once and then I raised the seat all the way up and said I'm not going to check it. I'm going to do this so there were there were bad things. Roll rate as I as you mentioned something the roll rate was like a Tomcat with the winds all the way forward is it was not good. The thing was absolutely phenomenal the most impressive over any aircraft I've ever flown. The term is peace of s but let's just call it power. Yeah, power brute brute power and and control in the in the pitch axis. It was a bull moose. It just, you could power through like I told one day went out and I just set the got to 450 knots set the power went to blower. I did three loops. Wow, holy moly. Okay. And but each one was completed in less than 2500 feet vertical. And at the end of the third one all I did was momentarily unload and I was back up to four to four 25 knots. So let me ask you this, because we both flew different versions the Viper the up 16 and early and late engines and in the 15 eagle. Could you be pretty free with your throttle moving wherever the heck you want it without the sounds and parts that are going to come out of the back of the engine. No, it was like it was like an eagle with a digital electronic deep, the deep. Very much unlike the Tomcat and the TF 30, where I, right, once I put the throttles anywhere I didn't, I didn't move. Interesting. Is it your favorite airplane effort. No. I know, I knew that. Yeah, this. And again when I got back and we started going around and briefing, you know, going to different squadrons and we went to the UK. We went to Sweden we went to Saudi Arabia. We went to Belgium and Netherlands and so forth and whenever we would be talking to a group of fighter pilots that was the question that they would ask, you know, and I, and I would go and say hey that it's a beautiful airplane I enjoyed playing it. Things that are not optimum. I love flying the f 16. Loved all that love flying taking the hornet to the ship. But my first fighter was the was the eagle. And it's always got a soft spot in my heart. Okay, you're in a stemming way. But I'll say what the eagle wasn't my first fighter and I flew both the F4 F15 F16 F16 and combat. It's a great airplane but the eagle is unique and that's part of why it has 104 to zero kill ratio and it's just a beautiful airplane. It's easy to land looks like it would be. Oh, absolutely you know the first in on that flight when I was flying from the backseat all and it totally did start the engines and lower the can and he gave me the airplane. So other than that. And then he demoed the first Cobra and he demoed the first tail slide. I didn't touch the stick the entire time so first landing I'm coming in and it's a straight and it's like a man's LS. And it's it was easier. It was easier than the eagle from the backseat about like a T. Eagles pretty easy so yeah, that's saying something, but it's backseat sits quite a bit higher. Yeah, I can picture that. I have more time and that's a good way to be in an episode where you're not going to have a stretch this out. But so you spent two months over there with the Russian airspace industry and the military connection and the probably the KGB as well. Oh, in a very turbulent point of transition. So anything you observe that you that you think about now as you look at the invasion of Ukraine and the tragic outcome of that. I spoke to it when I wrote that article years ago about there's an institutional aversion within Russian training and within the way they construct their airplanes to allow a pilot to take an airplane to the absolute limits and trusting the pilot. There was things in the flight control system where it would take control of the airplane from the pilot. The way that. And this is this is not meant to be a trajectory, but they're very linear. They're very, you could say plotting. I watched when I watched that. That caravan north of Kiev sit there for a week or 10 days and not move. And there's no initiative to go and do anything and there's there. I had some ideas. Yeah, I mean I had some ideas on how to do it too but I that that is their mindset. There's nobody in that caravan. That's going to go. I've got it. We're going to figure this out. We're going to go this way. We don't take that. The next step and then we'll sadly have to wrap up to me that explains why they devolved to an extremely brute force approach to just throwing iron on target. They're just going to keep pounding shopping malls today. It's just, they're just going to keep pounding until they achieve their objective switch. There's much more commentary in that. But it's that state of affairs somewhat predictable, I would say. Well Dallas. Thanks man. I will see you with the J on on an episode of military in Hawaii. Sometimes we'll find out if it's Wednesday or not. I always finish with, with asking what the guests next figment is we asked Dallas that last week and we've got a shared pigment and it is to open people's eyes to this concept of nuclear blackmail and how the United States has to rethink its strategy and operations and equipment for deterring and defending against nuclear blackmail from anybody who might seek to do it. On a lighter note, I then end with what would fig do. I've got another movie for you folks. It's jet pilot starting John Wayne and Janet Lee from 1957 was actually filmed I think from 1949 to 1954 it was a Howard Hughes movie his favorite movie it said it's a Cold War drama and romance. I'm going to see if I can get my screen to the movie poster of it. Let me read you the, the poster jet flame action jet hot thrills, exploding with all the power of the jet age with all the passion of a daring love story. It's actually a very entertaining movie, and we'll give you some interesting insight into the events of the day. So, don't forget, you can find our QR codes, or you can find our episode list on web, the web here as you see, please do that I use that, not just find other episodes but to make sure I'm not wearing the same shirt to shows in a row. I want to finish by thanking think tech Hawaii and great nonprofit corporation over 20 years of enabling Cipus internals like me and down. So thanks for watching Aloha. Mahalo.