 Alright, thanks for staying with us now. A leader is someone who can see how things can be improved and who rallies people to move towards that better version or better vision. Leaders can work towards making their vision a reality while putting people first. It is universally acknowledged that good leaders change the world and people don't simply become good leaders. It requires conscious effort and hard work and utmost determination. Now the brain drain in the Nigerian health care system did not start out of the blues. Doctors and health workers have been dealing with unpaid salaries, declining work environment and dilapidated infrastructure for the longest time and this can only be linked to bad leadership. So today we are asking what is exemplary leadership and is this bill mandating doctors to practice in Nigeria for five years the way to go? Now please let's hear what you have to say. Remember you can join this conversation send us an SMS or WhatsApp to 081 80384663. You can also tweet at us at the Weisho Afqa one with the hashtag Weisho. Alright so let me just quickly give an overview. Now this bill has reached or passed the second reading and if approved or if signed into law what it means is that after your housemanship from what I understand is that you know normally you do your two-year housemanship after your housemanship you would not be given a license as a medical doctor your license will be with health then you are then mandated to work five years within Nigeria and this bill was proposed I can't remember the senators I mean the house members name now that proposed that bill and this is his own he has thought really hard and long and this is the idea or this is the solution that could come to him that why don't we make our medical students I mean medical when they graduate and everything why don't we get them to stay five years before they leave let's not give them their license first of all what are your thoughts personally I think that we a lot of times act before we think through the consequences of our actions putting a cut before the bus most of the time our leaders from their actions show a lot of times that they do not have people in mind when they're making these decisions when I heard when you know when I was looking at this bill and the story behind it I remembered when I was in the university and I did a five-year course that I ended up graduating six years later and there were medical students who spent up to ten years in school reading medicine and then I think it's seven years I think and then you do housemanship one year so I've but with strike you end up adding like two years so say ten years and then you finish and then you go do youth service and then you tell me to add another five years before I can decide to take my life in my hands and a lot of times I'm asking myself you will say again madam consideration if you were the one that spent all that time in school and you wanted a better life is this the path that you would have wanted to go medical students people who are looking for better because you've not created that environment that can help me to thrive leadership is about creating environments that helps people to thrive you want to first fully keep me for five years you have not created a conducive environment for me to be able to thrive and then you want to enforce what you think is best for me and that's why you know to a large extent so it's I feel that this is very inconsiderate of our leaders because we always like to cut the branches without going to the deep root of the matter what is causing these doctors nurses and medical practitioners to want to leave their country in the first place what is causing them that's urge to move is because the environment is not created for them to thrive I know very intelligent doctors and medical practitioners but if they tell you how some of them have not been paid how what they pay cannot even help them to to live the kind of life not even frivolous now just basic ability to be able to just so let me even add because that's what is being flashed on this end let me just add then you can continue with the conversation add a bit of context to what you've said so it says as it stands Abia State government employed doctors are being owed 24 months for those working in the Abia State University teaching hospital right now the resident doctors working in this same Abia State University teaching hospital are being owed 22 months while the doctors working in general hospitals otherwise called the health management board are being owed 13 months salary and the rest of us to that was that they need to come and work so that they can generate the funds to pay them I don't know if we think and we put ourselves in the position of the human being who is at the receiving end of these things before we make the comments that we make if it was your son or your daughter that was put in this position will you stand up for it that's the question and this is about exemplary exemplary leadership how does it show me that you have my interest at heart when you make decisions that do not empower me that do not help me to thrive so I feel that it they need to really sit down and look at this situation a lot more holistically okay so in line with what you've just said right Yakuobu Oloribeda is the chairman of Senate Committee on Health described the proposed strategy as inadequate to address the multifaceted drawback he called it of the Nigerian health care and incapable of resolving the key issues like Noma just said that makes the local terrain unattractive to medical workers now he said that effort should be directed towards improving the health care system given making the environment conducive for workers that if at all that medical students you're claiming because the government claim is that they have subsidized medical descent I'm trying to get the costing of the fee that they have been subsidized that it subsidized highly subsidized medical fees for the students so he's saying that you know what why don't you even give medical students the option to either pay the market rate fee or the subsidized fee so if I pay market rate fee you can come and tell me that you want to time me down for five years I'll rather pay it and get my freedom then if I'm paying the subsidized fee even even went ahead to say you must give them two options one of the option would be that they refund the money upon completion of their training or they then work for that period of time which is the five years that is being proposed but you can't just wake up you know this is somebody's a medical doctor within the committee there if they you cannot just wake up and bring this kind of blankets and what's he called now let's even go back because we're talking about exemplary leaders and I want you to come in if you really want to lead by example right have you in any way encouraged a better health care structure in Nigeria we know that okay the other day professor Yemio Shippan our vice president went to a hospital in Ikeja to go do some surgery we celebrated them and we said okay thankfully or at least somebody decided to stay within the country he didn't leave the country and this the hospital actually you know they actually did a fantastic job catering to him but we know how many months our president stayed outside of the country in the bid to get a better medical and what's called health care we know how many of our leaders right that go outside of the country to get medical care right so if you really want to really solve the problem why don't you live by example and say you know what for the four years that I would be elected or appointed any anything that has to do with government official right I will live by example by ensuring that everything I do I live I eat I breathe Nigeria why do you have to live outside of the country you know why you're not leading that that part you know you just spending the movement let me hear your thoughts Jennifer you know time and time again the government has shown how inconsiderate and unfair they are when I saw this bill I was very upset I didn't want to believe that it was true because if we actually noticed a lot of our governments or governors or House of even the president leave the shores of Nigeria to go abroad to seek medical services or treatment and then they stay there for a long time now you're asking the doctors to stay back for five years and what care compulsory because you don't want them to leave now the health care system is actually very terrible if I get sick today and I get to the hospital it's at the end of the day you just have to ask God please do your work because you don't trust anything that is happening there even the drugs that you're being given you don't trust it you probably be treating a particular illness you can treat it for months and sometimes you probably diagnose you wrongly and this is this is a time where we need to put in more money into the medical when the health care system now I think it was last week or so I saw I saw a budget I can't remember what they released the budget for and then it was around it was it was in the billions we're talking 20 to 40 billion and then when I saw it I'm like why people always giving this huge amount for things that are irrelevant to the society it is irrelevant to us or can I just tell you the one I saw was 12 billion to purchase 10 fire trucks I saw that and I was very confused because I remember a day where they were where they were commissioning a fire service station when the governor got there and then they brought out the fire truck they had like five there was no water the truck itself was very dusty it was dirty it was very obvious that they didn't just buy that truck they had the truck they've been using since and when you look at these things it's very shameful and I think the government and people who are passing this bill need to be ashamed of themselves because if you're thinking about the health care system and you feel like the best solution that came to your mind is this and you need to go back to your drawing board or you leave completely because I don't get it so let me say something here because there's a research that came out that says a boot in hospitals such as the federal medical center but a meter have had a turn I've had to turn to task shifting and flexible arrangement that allows for job hopping to certain services certain services running now the hospital they said had lost a total of 152 workers including 38 doctors 42 nurses 30 combined laboratory scientists pharmacists and psychotherapists and 42 others just between January to August 2022 and Nigeria is home to about of course you know 82 million poor are poor with health expenditure per person this I mean so we are spending like $71 right indirectly offsetting our health care bills but go to countries like the US they are capable of spending at least 10,921 dollars in health care spending per individual UK and Saudi Arabia spent about four thousand three hundred dollars and one thousand three hundred dollars respectively on each citizen do you understand most of these countries that you see our medical doctors migrating to they prioritize their citizens they spend money on health care for their citizens so that is why you see that the doctor is confident that if I do my job if I know my job I'll get paid so are you as a leader you are just waking up and saying now now look at the numbers very staggering numbers about 6068 Nigerian medical doctors moved to the UK in the last seven years according to the general medical council of the United Kingdom so now even this one said they are actually afraid because if they leave it all our doctors will go so I get their love saying that they are trying to control it so that we don't have that deficiency the doctor because we're supposed to have this topic on Friday yeah the doctor that me I call I told the ball a lot to reach out these way out it's not on this way they were just landing Canada they were she said a voice notes to a ball a lot that I'm a darling that we just landed I'm the doctor she didn't recommend that I'm looking at the way his picture was looking he's looking like he has prepared his professional profile we're discussing exemplary leadership in respect to the bill mandating doctors to practice in Nigeria for five years now please let's hear what you have to say remember you can join the conversation send us an SMS or WhatsApp to the red one 8034663 you can also tweet at us at Weshaw after one with the hashtag Weshaw so normally touched on a lot of salient points that even me I didn't even think about it first of all we spend how many months of strike so you have already taken out don't forget that some of these people did not go to school early so maybe let's see average I entered school when I was 25 you come out you come out I come out when I'm in my 30s I'm required to do NYSE then you know mandate me so because again now without the license right without the license would you be able to get your what you deserve in terms of payment even we know that the payment is not it but if I am not a licensed doctor isn't it even illegal for me to be practicing without a license genocide so what do we what would the government so this is like that's why the the person in committee said this one is not the way because in in the bit to try to want to even implement this you are violating a lot of laws there is the freedom for movement which is why people are saying that when we are arguing that our legislators should not leave the shores of this country to go and get medical care the argument is that there is a law that gives them freedom of movement and you see the only thing we can tell them is that when you are going make sure that you are using your own pocket money not taxpayers money but how would you know which money that they are using is he labeled you know so the even in the beat want to even bring up this this law that they are trying to move to whatever you are violating a lot of laws because as a medical doctor you are not authorized to practice you understand without a license you know so and if you ask me this will only create an avenue for people to find other ways okay so I have a friend sorry number he was in 200 level I think when his father moved him out of the country and today he's doing exceptionally well outside the shores of this country he's a top you know this is a position first of all that he would not have smelt if he was in a year because first of all you those kind of position is the ones that you have gray hair that will give you those positions right but I'm saying to you that if that is the case medical students will just wait till they are like in their third year or their fourth year and they will just carry their bag and go and complete the studies and continue there because you really cannot tie people find a way out of this it's not possible you know you should have been thinking about as a leader is that okay what can I do differently that would make people not run away from me do you understand that is you showing that okay yes I can make this thing work and you know being an example so your own children now have you mandated them to stay in the country because that is one angle some other people would just refuse to study medicine they would decide to say I beg let me go to a cause that is not stressing my life do you know that some people are willing it's so bad that people are willing to throw away the 10 years or 12 years that they they considered a waste they would rather start all over again I've seen people who had no business in the medical field going to go and read nursing abroad just so that they can have a stake at a good life or whatever they think will solve their problems so that's how resilient Nigerians are whatever you try to circumvent to they will find a way and they're finding that way this five years is not the solution to the problem because they're not even looking at the problem itself there's a reason why people are living in the first place and Nigerians funny enough are the kind of people that do you know how many people that are out there that if Nigeria was working they would they have no business in a hot in a hot be no business being outside the country they will all come back it's about making Nigeria work it's about making Nigeria the kind of place that they can come back to and feel that they are Nigerians they have a stake in the country and that's why we're talking exemplary leadership what are we doing differently to show Nigerians that there is a direction right we have a plan we have a goal to make Nigeria better to make Nigeria desirable enough to call back all of those ex resources that are being trained outside the country to be useful to be resourceful in Nigeria that's what it is no man is it not shameful that the best of the best right in the medical field globally are Nigerians is it not shameful to you that you are trying to pass this kind of bill currently we have over 11,000 trained Nigerian trained doctors in the UK alone yeah you're not talking about Canada you're not talking about America and even if you go to some of those places you will find out that the top medical practitioners and Nigerians Nigerians have the ability to thrive anyway you just root them in in the place that brings out the best in them and you will see that even the ones that were considered not very intelligent here go outside and they thrive so it will tell you that the problem lies within it lies within us and the kind of leadership that is not taking us anywhere and as you know I don't know but for future reference really is an eye-opener for us who are we choosing to lead us in the first space because the person has no direction then we're doomed I think they need to start thinking more we've gone past the time of just coming up with things and seeing whatever is in your hearts or in your mind so you can sound smart we need to actually like put in the work and people need to start seeing the result for a profession where they walk round the clock that income is very very poor and now the situation where you have a lot of doctors who are living you have one doctor taking on the shifts of three people three so you are exhausted more than that so when you are exhausted their dreams themselves how do you how do you perform well on top of that plus they refuse to pay you salary like pay these people they're supposed to be one of the highest paid yeah you're talking about lives of human beings isn't it and that's why you know you had mentioned earlier about Saudi Arabia and some of the countries that put a lot of stake in the medical health care because they're thinking about the healthcare of their citizens so these are people that are put placing priority on human life and you're not thinking about the human the the doctors that are supposed to be saving these lives to look for a way to you know give them incentives that will encourage them to keep saving these lives so let me let me even because we are focusing on doctors let's move a bit because he's healthcare workers right in 2020 Nigeria had 1,000 1,200 nurses and midwives or 1.2 nurses and midwife I think that's 1,200 and about 400 physicians for every 1,000 inhabitants slightly higher than sub-Saharan Africa average but worse than many of its regional pairs such as Ghana Namibia Gambia as well as structural and aspirational pair countries such as Indonesia and Vietnam nothing shortages leads to error high mobility and mortality rates so now according to World Bank Nigeria has the highest mortality under five mortality rates in the world with a 117 death per 1,000 life birth 117 children we die in in 1,000 so there are problems that we are facing in this country and if we had leaders that were strategic you understand that understood what it what what it what it it takes to be a leader you would this would be the like you know when you see and I think this idea will not have don't come up in your in your plan for solution it's like there is a problem right the tree is bringing out bad fruits bad fruits and you are saying that okay no no no no no let us find a way to ensure that maybe we take the whatever out no there is a root cause if a tree is not producing well or is not bringing out good food what you are supposed to do is continue to inject that through loads of loads of vitamins and then what's it called and treatments and all of that just keep injecting the roots with time all that thing will blossom and the fruits will start to come out plush and and lump the health care structure in Nigeria is very very poor you know I've said this thing several times that I know people that if they were in Nigeria they would have been dead buried forgotten you understand because of the health challenges that they had but because they are in other climes and it's not to say that health care or in other parts of the world are perfect no no it's be you are it's it's far from perfect but what happens is even the problem we're having Nigeria is actually deeper than just the health care is the value to human life that we have not attached because if we understood that this person is a human being and must be cared for is deserving of love is deserving of a better life is very deserving of life you know in itself you will treat that person differently you will look for things that would ensure that that person standard of living is better or that part of the world of course they don't get problem again that's why they look for problem they won't give themselves do you understand I'm trying to look for the right my right your right did them and all of that we have real issues in this country we've not solved power situations in this country education we've not our educational system is going down the drain by the health care system health care system has always been you know a bit epileptic what's it called the infrastructural challenges and deficits that we have don't forget that these doctors have families the nurses have families is healthcare workers have families right if you do not prioritize them and say that they matter how do you expect them you know to put priority in the work that they do have you heard of dr. slumming and dying you know have you heard of them or nurses to so a lot of people leave the country out of frustration there is a frustration behind the living of the country and you are now saying that they don't even think no they don't even see it I mean you're sitting down and just coming up with this bill and saying okay we enforce it and you know it's it's painful it's painful because you don't see the plight of the people you don't see it from their perspective and that's another thing about leadership it's about seeing feeling the poles of the people what are they going through how can we solve their problems your if you see things from your own perspective enough is alone it's very easy for you to come up with situations like this and pass a bill or consider a bill in the first place but if you are the one on the hot seat it will be different if you imagine that you are the doctor or the nurse who has to go through this then you will reconsider and that's where we want leaders to begin to come from where you feel place of empathy the pain of the Nigerian citizen and you know if you listened to if you had listened strongly to what's his name JRV campaign I used to bring it back and he's always he kept on emphasizing on empathy right and I think it's the biggest thing we lack in leadership in this country we don't have empathetic leaders because if you put yourself like you rightly said in the shoes of these healthcare workers you will not be proposing this beta you're proposing it will not even go it will not even it will not even cross your mind because you will know that the problem is not because I mean people you think people generally enjoy you know living in another month country the cost of living in in another country you can't compare it if you were living I told I went to the embassy you could see clearly this thing was coming this person is visa fee was a community community effort to get that visa and the money to pay for the visa fee everybody just wants to live it's but not even talking about healthcare workers alone we're talking about Nigerians in general wanting to leave and you can all you can think about is okay let us make sure that we seize their license for five years come on and sometimes people that was the best you know sometimes when people leave people think that oh things are going well for them that's why they left the people who have left well and good paying jobs just to go abroad and do menial jobs they are over there suffering a lot of them are suffering but will rather suffer and toil and be there because they know that there's a lies at the end of the tunnel than to be here where every time you walk the government comes and scatters it so basically you have to go back every effort you make and it is in futility it doesn't make any sense it doesn't make any sense I've actually come to believe that sometimes these people have put themselves in people's shoes they know how other people feel but it just don't care hmm I hear some people are trying to call the WhatsApp line was sorry we don't take calls on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays just send your messages but not not calls today please it is well so what do we think would have been a better solution if we were to help this young man that is trying to pass a beam what do you think we should have what should the proposal look like or the proposed bill look like I think part of solving problems is having a dialogue with even the people that have the problem part of it is having conversations with the I don't know medical association to say how can we do are the ones in the hot seat what can we do differently to help people to alleviate the problems and let them even add their views let's see that's part of leadership having a dialogue with the people having conversations and finding out what is the problem and where did we go wrong what can we do differently we're not saying that it's going to happen overnight but when you start asking the right kind of questions the right answers will begin to come as well and that will be a start they would know and they will have the feeling that okay it's like you are now seeing me as a human being because a lot of times we make decisions without even thinking about how it affects the other person so they don't so in their own mind is okay you didn't consider me you didn't consult me in the first place so why do you think that I should care but when they are brought into the situation they can let them know these are our challenges if you can do this and then you can come to a compromise we may not be able to solve all your problems in one sitting but we can gradually get there that's part of leadership when you are able to show people that okay we have a direction we have a plan we have a goal and if we all work together we can get there we can accomplish our our goals and our dreams then it would be a win-win situation I like that 100% agree with you honestly and after having a dialogue I mean if you've spoken to doctors you hear that I mean we just read one Abia State 24 months that's basically two years so imagine not having an income a monthly income for two years how are you able to feed and I think you have children that go to school it's important that they pay attention and restructure the monthly income of doctors you need to stop paying them well well and then after that you start working on the healthcare system these hospitals are dilapidated if there are equipments that you need to change start changing them if there are new equipment you need to bring in bring them in give people a conducive place to be in I can't go to the hospital and I'm admitted in the hospital and there's no lights you are on the operating theatre yeah I was gonna also add to that that also give incentives so for instance now I know some organizations because you are working for them if you have children and probably maybe they have schools or something they subsidize the fees for your children you know so those kinds of little perks are incentives that they would also look at and say okay this is worth you know worth my while you know in the in the beat for dialogue you would uncover a lot of things and some would argue is that some people would argue is that it's not like these are leaders don't know the problem but they've chosen to turn a blind eye to the problems you know but I choose to believe that if they knew better they would do better our leaders really don't understand what it is because you know what I've seen people just because of the the motivation that they give the people there that subordinates to them they work their heart out without being paid people is not today they owe salary but you see it is because of the motivation that they get they know genuine leader this my boss we are having a rough time in the company but I'll stick with you and I'll work with you because those leaders you know our leaders that you know they will hold your hand and say you know what if I grow we grow together it's not all it's not every time that is about money and that is what I even want some of our leaders to understand it goes beyond money you know that empathy is very important that you are showing the example that we are in a mess as a country we are all in this mess together and we'll right rise above it even in your lifestyle in your dealings in everything right if you do it that way and the people see you genuinely that this leader is actually for us yes we might be going through a rough time but we're ready to rough it up with him that is the kind of leader we're looking for and if we do not get those kind of leaders it is impossible for things like this not to continue it is impossible people continue to leave your country because they don't believe that you don't have messages okay long ones for some quick good evening my dear beautiful sisters of what are you saying hashtag ways exemplary leadership bill mandating doctors to practice night in Nigeria for five years it's so sad and frustrating when someone is made to spend more than he or she's supposed to spend in the university due to one problem or the other that madness has to stop in Nigeria while doctors relocate abroad is maybe because they do not have the facilities to work with or they are poorly paid and they go to look for greener pastures we need to encourage them to stay and not go sister war your continent is justified concerning that video it is really tiring even me I'm tired I'm so happy and excited to have my debut for system yeah and then we have one from Austin we've run out of time we'll continue the conversation tomorrow that it is important it is almost impossible to command without being an exemplar and to lead without helping those whom you wish to take into your laps well sorry Austin we've sorry anybody we couldn't read your messages to see you guys tomorrow