 We're live welcome everybody back to seagull talks here at the Mothney seagull theater center at the Graduate Center CUNY in New York City in Manhattan that's in University and another day in New York another day on planet Earth and another day with COVID it's still evolving and developing it in a rapid a speed we are still in a moment of great uncertainty we do not know what actually what is happening we don't know what will happen and perhaps we also don't really fully know what already happened that led to all of this New York City is of course so very much affected by this was for a very long time the epicenter was over a thousand thousand two hundred infection it was down to 20 per day last week which is a great testimony to to the New Yorkers and for listening and for respecting but of course we do not know what the second third force of hips wake will bring wave will bring a 60,000 infections again yesterday in the US it is the fifth day of record infections we don't really know how this could be compared to other in countries other nations more and more becomes clear it's because of a disastrous leadership of responses that don't serve the people I didn't protect the people they didn't take that as serious as they should have been in the beginning and the same for now the president refuse refuses to wear a mask now pushes for opening of schools in the fall for normal high schools and kindergarten even so numbers are against it and the threatens to take away subsidies and funding if not our international students are threatened not to get a visa not to be able to study at the university or at other universities Harvard MIT file the lawsuit I think yesterday against this reckless and truly outrageous decision that came out of the blue and all theaters still of course are close to New York City no indoor dining so many restaurants bought food for indoor dining for the 50% openings that was promised but the numbers are so high that went back and New York City is also experiencing strange things it looks like and it's really called like things the corona neighborhood in Queens has 68% or 70% of infection of everybody on the street so it's almost heard immunity people were affected much much more often of course it is more immigrant diverse neighborhood that is three times as affected then what the white people then die two times more by the rate so we really do not know what is happening there are questions on Cuomo who sent back COVID patients from the hospitals into the old age homes and of course we also know so many people died in the old age home so many workers were infected as over a thousand and so we are all of course now second second guessing if these was right and we have over three millions infections in the US we have over three million in Latin America and half a million in Africa by the way and things are looking complicated in Brazil and in India especially now when Puerto Rico most probably now is experiencing one of the most complicated times of the state of the US so the fifth catastrophe I think four or five six years it is quite stunning the time you live through we heard yesterday from Japan from an update from Satoko and what artists are going through their opening actually theaters in Japan it looked like it was all behind and all the sudden also Japan is closing again neighborhoods restaurants streets and trying to contain to contain it we all of course think what what is the role of the arts what is the role of theater theater has been hit so hard that will be they were the first to close that will be the last to open next to massage salons because it is a work with the body is a representation with the body and the public gathering of a community everything that makes life and community great and as we always say great theater is a reward for a great society great community community that takes care of itself and if it's not the case there is no good theater or no theater at all as we have it now it always depends of course on the people who run these institutions where artists have been on the right side of social justice of the complex struggle for freedom and liberties and these artists anticipate the future or they are in in the moment closer to the present than we all are and one of the leaders in New York City is Nigel Nigel Smith who we know for a long time also was at prelude and he took over the fleet theater in New York City which he inherited a system how it worked how it produced and and now is in the middle of that storm in the middle of the covid having a theater that cannot produce theater having artists who cannot work having to redefine the mission which is the role of every artistic director Nigel is primarily a director and he did you the great work of the free the system promises from Thomas pressure he worked a lot with the great Taylor Mac the holiday source but also the the now legendary 24 decade history of popular music a landmark piece i'm saying of the decade also and so many institutions he worked for and centers museums he is also board member of a rt of art new york of the union of new york non-profit theaters i was five six hundred members i think and he's an activist an artistic activist organization the willing participants where he's a ring leader that whips up urgent poetic responses to crazy shit that happens so and Nigel thank you for joining us i know how much you have on your mind how much you have to deal with our head dealt with how where are you at the moment frank thank you so much for inviting me to participate in this i think really important project i am thankfully with family and i'm in rural north carolina today is this where you grew up yes i grew up down here in north carolina so back home yeah i heard here's some sunburns so what are your parents are were they father theater were they a wolf in the theater world no not not in the professional sense you know uh my mom uh she is laborer uh when i was growing up she was working in screen printing uh and now she works for walmart uh my dad um worked in uh it was a cotton mill so textiles are big so uh and then moved into actually um became a uh a guard at a local prison uh so that was my that's where my parents started but uh church and particularly the pentecostal church tradition uh is what i the fascism i grew up in uh and it is it is theatrical you know it is the kind of space where you walk in on any given sunday and you don't know how long you're going to be there uh because there's a call and response there is an improvisation to it uh if someone's spirit is moved to dance then the drummer picks up the beat and that dance happens that praise dance happens or if someone wants to sing a certain song that song starts to rise and the rest of the congregation joins in that song uh who knows how long the the homily is going to go on so i i i think that even though it wasn't a professional since that was sort of the the theatrical breeding space for me and you know not only would we go to you know the services and to revivals and to sunday school but then me and my cousins would go and recreate that in our front yard or make up new stories um so uh yeah so were you a singer were you a singer in the chorus i thought i was a singer i tried to sing did you participate as a young man yes yeah very much so i mean i uh all the pageants we would do holiday pageants you know singing in the kids chorus uh being a leader in sunday school it was all it was all there it's all there so is the time of covid a reconnection for you now or lose your roots yeah i um one of the things that was so fascinating to me at the very beginning is uh how how quickly i started to be in deep and continual conversation and engagement with particularly my parents you know and my youngest brothers you know uh you know just immediately started talking you know three or four times a week uh and it was a just sort of a gift to to be inside of each other's minds and stories uh so much uh and then look it's not just the time of covid uh it is a reckoning for our society you know um i have two brothers two younger brothers and i have a nephew and i have my father uh and i have a black family uh and for century for you know centuries we've been agitating uh and our lives our value as fellow citizens it's just as simply as human beings uh must be uh acknowledged uh and must be supported and and elevated uh and we are in a moment where um many of us won't accept cannot accept uh any return to what our our world our institutions looked like uh before covid and uh yeah that's what my that's what i'm thinking about right now you know and i'm i'm also thinking about sort of the um look you know i've lost uh family and friends of family uh to this um disease uh and many folks i know are out of work uh or under working uh under employed and despite those very real very true traumas there is also something there's a gift inside of this moment a gift of consideration uh and a gift for engagement uh and the um for some of us the the we're with all an energy to actually go out and do and do the work and call for change uh and so um this pause that has a horror to it also has a deep deep opportunity in it uh that uh i'm grateful that so many people can be involved in this in this movement yeah and um where where you started the covid when you state my need to know this is happening for real i was in uh what i've well we were when i first started to become aware of it uh happening in other countries i was in rehearsals for um a project called the fray by taylor mac that was being produced at the flea theater which i was directing uh with our resident company the bats uh and we were doing it a giant ball pit uh it is uh the fray is about um really about our divided society and what does it mean as a a queer esthete intellectual who leaves a uh a society that's uh that's trumping and that is um uh mired and sort of it's selfishness um and what does it mean for him to return to that to that world uh and is the is there room for uh a coming together across uh sort of worldviews uh as a comedy uh in a giant ball pit the audience was cast inside of this if they wanted to be somewhere outside um and we were just deep into making that piece i mean we're truly a pre-covid piece if you think about it you know all of our bodies inside of this ball pit together um and uh we got about we were four previews away from opening night uh when uh it was absolutely clear that we as a theater industry needed to uh to shut our doors and you in a way you are responsible right you're the i'm right i'll remember yeah i mean well at that company you know we had two cast so there were 16 actors and then uh you know our tech teams and our staff uh and uh folks working in our building um so and i remember getting i think annie kaufman sent it out you know i'm on a group of fellow artistic leaders uh and it was the first time i saw a document that laid out the the curve and laid out the argument uh for flattening the curves and how institutions and governments needed to react quickly uh and i remember us all going whoa thank you we have to act tomorrow this was like um the wednesday uh and so the thursday we started uh closing our theaters um overnight yeah overnight i got immediately i sent it to uh other leadership but yeah overnight it was it was just clear because but up until that point there was sort of i'll speak for myself uh there was a sense of oh this can be contained okay so we've identified where uh their outbreaks and we're containing and there's i believe there was a lockdown in rockland county uh but when getting that information uh it was aware even though that our government hadn't uh taken the leap that we needed to as as individual uh businesses and then you went fast to uh to the carolina so you stayed in new york uh we i was in new york for about six days uh and uh my my partner brice is also from north carolina his parents called us and said we were watching rachel matt out last night uh we think you have 72 hours to decide where you're going to um to to get through this uh we really think you should come home uh and and be here uh and so um we made that choice we made that choice uh to you know come down to north carolina and to um and and to you know for for 14 days of quarantine and then to um to be sheltered in place with our family so it was your home you know when you said yes yes it's a big big big decision to make yeah yeah and and and at that time you know we thought okay this is going to be you know the outside we thought maybe maybe 12 weeks you know we i i can't even because i'm still in the moment i can't remember how we were coming up with those numbers and there's you know brought some sweaters and and some pants i had no no inkling that it would be here july and still sitting here what what made it what did it make you think what went through your mind what what are we how are you experiencing these weeks yeah well i think that it look uh so one of things that's unique uh about the flea is that we have resident artists you know with resident actors the bats with resident directors and resident writers uh and the first thing i began to think about was like okay we're artists and and and our artists we're starting to leave the city as well you know we're an off-off Broadway theater our company they're many of them are working gig jobs to make ends meet they were you know uber drivers and working as nannies and working at restaurants and so they were starting to leave the city and and we very we very much as a as a staff wanted to keep uh continue to keep them tethered to art making and art practice and so uh that's first week after we close we started pivoting to uh digital content uh we've a long running series called serials uh which is a serialized theater that um uh you know certain projects come back you know depending on the audience interest and and certain teams start with a new one uh and immediately that writing team started to reconceive of works that not only happened on digital platforms but embraced distance so you know either in its comedy or in its storytelling uh so we wanted to keep giving opportunities to our artists to create and reflect on the world we were living on uh so that was that was the very first thing we thought about and particularly because at that moment uh there was a sense that it was much more temporary than what we've come to learn you know if i yeah yeah and and um and did you rethink why theater and uh what to do in these days and these months and weeks of course uh i think that's something i think about all the time uh but this is a very specific uh kind of rethink you know uh look what i the reason i've chosen to make theater uh is a sense of community ritual uh and also i love being in the room with not just my fellow collaborators but with our audience uh the way that you make a choice uh or an actor makes a choice uh is deeply responding to the the energy of the room and and and as a as a director you know i think my one of my roles is to get the audience's heartbeat beating in in synchronicity you know and so i'm like in preview performances seeing how an audience is responding in real time and making my notes about the kinds of adjustments i think we might need to take there's something really just um so deeply personal and human about that that kind of work um uh but also our work is is storytelling uh and uh it's about um reflecting on uh the artist's consideration of our world uh and that that doesn't only take shape in uh in live physical performance uh and so you know i'm as deeply interested in uh and filmed work as i am in live work uh and i believe that the um the abilities of theater artists uh can translate to other mediums and the what i was thinking about as we made that pivot uh and what we were thinking about is is creative teams is uh how how do we make a pivot that's not about taking theater and putting it into this other space but how are we as theater artists making in these other spaces you know so i was talking about serials a little earlier the uh the team didn't continue with this the stories that they were writing pre-covid you know they started making new material and the director's role increased you know so suddenly here we are making we're digital content makers and so the the the vision of how to capture and visual storytelling suddenly became part of the language of our producing you know and also added like our director started to become editors and so uh taking the um our gift as theater directors and translating that to digital content makers and it also yeah i think another thing i didn't mention is uh in that first week i i convened all of our resident directors and said how do you want to respond right now what's important to you uh and and so how can we put the fleece resources behind that and uh and they came up with some really brilliant uh impulses you know one was to design a series of props to be put onto our instagram page for folks to create performances at home and another group started to work on uh elevating underheard voices around our our globe and so started a process of gathering stories from individuals all over and artistic responses from all over as the just the beginning process of building a new work another group um when i started at the flea it was important to me to expand our audience to include young people uh i i know that it is essential um in our society that we um that we offer deeply considered performances to folks from a very young age they deserve it they deserve it you know you begin our conversation talking about what great societies deserve and i was lucky enough even though i grew up here in this rural area that at some point someone took me to the big city and i saw a proper play the snow queen on stage uh but i'd also been and you know we could call it local theater the pageants we were making a church uh that there was space for the expression of self you know and the expression of community and expression of value through live performance so that's just a really i think a really long way of saying it was it was important uh that we start making work for young audiences and um they're all set in very specific cultures and cultural traditions and and one of them set in the russian tradition was it went wonderfully well and the director uh is also a film editor and the designer was really interested in uh how to animate the work and so that team started working on an animated adaptation uh of of the play not my monster they are still deep in it uh our resident coming the bats who originally performed it did the voices and the voiceovers for that work uh and uh you know we hope that very soon we'll be able to to share that with audiences in this other form so i mean the i i think that that unique positioning of having a resident company just got us thinking very quickly about uh about how how we live our our lives as artists you know and like you asked a really big question you know that i think also is extended to my my person my work outside of the fleet you know and also a freelance director and i'm i'm working on this uh opera the ritual of breath is the right to resist and it is an opera uh that is a meditation of breath a meditation on the loss of breath and a call to action uh for all of us to to breathe in uh the the value of all of black lives and our producer turned to me and my fellow collaborators is the libretto is by this incredible poet by the francis that's scored by jonathan burger and uh the instigating artist and rica riley is if you don't know his work he's one of our nation's best visual artists um our producer turned to us and said what do you want to do now you know here we are you know we can't make an opera you know spraying saliva and musicians and and audiences uh and you know we said this work is urgent and and uh and so now we are conceiving of it as a hybrid uh live film to peace and so uh we're building a model um mary mary luleski is our lead producer she's based at dartmouth and kim whitner is a producer and they are uh committed to us as a team um actually coming together having our moment of quarantine uh and not only are we going to build the live performance but we're going to build the filmed performance you know so it is it is a film that calls on the aesthetic of our current day which is that the the individual is the community making the action of this opera are also filming it with the technology that is uh right there with them because we believe that this work uh as a creative team we believe that this work can resonate as deeply through that point of view of the person inside of the work making a film about the work as it will as a live interaction uh it's it's fascinating the questions that you know get brought up you know uh around the aural experience and the immersiveness of uh something that's mediated by technology uh but all problems that we're eager to solve and at the same time making the live experience so that as we're able to uh to invite audiences into a space again uh they can also have that experience with the work so i mean these are big things i'm thinking about you know um and i and i also think about um you know advocacy you know advocacy for this form in our in our country which is why you mentioned i'm a board member at art new york that's why i'm a board member you know is that uh we have to we have to ensure that there are resources and space for uh artists work to exist in the opera is about breathing did you do this before the uh george ford killing was that conceiving before yes uh it was uh yes it's been around we've been working on it two years now yes yeah as we said earlier that artists in a way do anticipate these things what was that moment for you that the black life matter that of course also was there before but became and so prominent in this we now know it's the largest civil rights movement ever by numbers that in the history of the united states how did you experience that moment yeah i mean what a question uh i don't someone asked me recently they said you know that was a group of folks what's your uh first memory of being aware of of race uh i personally don't have a pre-racialized memory uh that you know i i remember my dad growing up they said you know son you got to be 110 percent you got to play their game better than they play it it's like i grew up inside of a worldview that was about white supremacy and about uh my relationship to whiteness and how i would i would be perceived out in the world uh i don't think i've lived a day without a deep understanding that black lives matter uh what's infuriating is that my people still have to die for other folks to um to acknowledge as much um i think that uh and and the most recent upsurging of the moment of the movement uh and and this deeper inclusion of the movement in the movement um it's just it's so senseless you know you you see the videos or you read the reports like i you can't take i can't i can't run i can't i can't go for a run you know i can't open the door to my house you know i can't be engaged with respect they're fed up we're fed up folks are fed up you know um and then i'm also just so concerned you know it's like i was working on a project years ago with brandon jacob jinkins his play neighbors and we were doing the first workshop of it and it's uh it's it's an incendiary piece you know it's it's a piece about a family of vaudeville valians black ones who are also in blackface to show up next door to a black college professor and his white wife and mixed race uh daughter uh and after the presentation uh an elder a black elder uh she she made a beeline for me and brandon and she says why why why do you have to make this work you know we were talking to her about you know why it felt necessary to her and she says but we thought we had dealt with this we thought we had gotten rid of this so you wouldn't have to engage these things you know she's talking specifically about black you know blackface and and this mental see tradition uh and that is like and and i have so much empathy for that you know in her experience of it uh because that is that's what's underneath this is like we've been uh we should not be we should not have to but it's my role as an artist and I think our our roles as advocates and activists uh to continually stand up and say hey we ain't there yet we ain't got there yet we haven't arrived to the other side they still work to be done yes you worked yes you had good intentions yes you thought you heard but we ain't there and that's why that's why i'm here we're gonna have a dialogue we're gonna have a march we're gonna make a new piece of art we're gonna reform this institution you know uh you're gonna make sure my voice is at the table and so now i'm transitioning to like you know this very specific place of uh you know there's a a reckoning an industry at large and specifically uh for us at the fleet uh about how to um not only be a diverse institution uh but to be inequitable and inclusive how was it for you um as a black artist you took over if i'm right jim simpson who was the husband of sygoni weaver if i'm right i'm not completely sure yeah absolutely right yes jim that is not the national black theater or the classical theater problem or the federal you know has that tradition of of black so how was that for you to take to come in there and the things you found that how was that well i was eager right you know uh i had um i i had seen at iskander savannah at iskander had made um uh the mysteries at the flea uh and i'd also seen this wonderful uh played by hommish linklater didi o'Connell in it uh and so i had seen the work of the fleet but i didn't really know it um but i also my first internship in the theater was with trinity repertory company in providence rhod island uh and they had a repertory company you know just so rare in our in our country and i just being remembering so enthused about the idea of an ongoing engagement of artists with the theater and so uh when the flea was looking for a leader you know two things intrigued me about the institution you know one was this resident artist okay what is that what does that mean how does that get worked out uh and and not only are they resident artists uh they're early career young folks and so they're not playing you know the assumption they're not playing by the rules of uh the established you know art makers um and then also it's off off broadway which is that's the thing that keeps me going as an artist is the space for uh the novel um the experiment uh the reconsideration of the form um the introduction of new voices uh and new perspectives uh and so i was like okay that's that that those two things at one place you know let me let me go through my hat in the ring uh and i had a successful interview process um you know a new a new going in two things uh one which is that i wanted it to be uh not just diverse and the people the actors who were around the diverse in whose stories were being shared and what audiences were showing up okay uh and i and i felt real buy-in from uh uh the producing director and the board who hired me uh but i also knew that it needed to become more sustainable you know so this is the thing about off off broadway is that it exists off of the exuberance and energy and uh specifically the fleet then the volunteer nature of folks wanting to show up and make art uh but i was really curious about how do we make this a more sustainable place uh so uh look when you're coming in as a total outside i'd never worked at the fleet never worked for anyone at the flea uh you know there's a way of doing things that already exist uh and um um my dad and i who gives me advice you know we talked before i accepted the position and talked about how i uh could come in and and and and turn and shift uh and uh and use the the ways that the fleet already been successful to sort of point the direction in a different way um so it met first getting the getting writers in that were um that expanded the the vision of what was on stage it meant i mean the first piece i did at the flea uh so artistic director was devised uh with a company that was majority POC about the intersection of um the value of black lives and our ongoing climate change emergency you know and we got in a room and started devising works and devising pieces and then we decided that this was not a work to just be inhabited embodied by the actors but also by the audience and so we wrote a score where audience members could also take apart and and participate in the making of the work uh i feel like i've lost sight of your question uh well your experience was to come into existing structures you know that yeah i mean like it's it's so complicated because you're walking into a room that's already has a a way of making and doing and so you know i i took that tact of like slowly turning you know by introducing new artists to the fold introducing different forms to the fold uh you know it was also a theater that was in the in the midst of a capital campaign building a building and so there was like that was like the main board priority you know leadership priority and so the goal was like to get into the building and then the final phase of the of that strategic plan would be to sustain the art making in that building and so you know that's two and a half years just to get to the building and then to start the strategic plan is fundraising and so then start the fundraising for how to better sustain our artists you know which we were doing but you look i also uh um i walked into a theater that is uh predominantly and historically white yeah so the um the work of uh of engagement and consideration and uh uh and then shifting um was um was slow and meaningful you know i remember a friend of mine claude a alex uh was working with a group of artists to create this piece every 28 hours which was part of the one minute play um festival tradition which was uh this 40 plus uh plays that dealt with the uh horrific statistic that every 28 hours a black person was killed by a police and you know i remember coming in and being like i'm committing the flee to this whoa whoa we're gonna do a free performance you know when 40 plays it's only gonna happen once and and how does that make sense in terms of like our budget and all these things they're like we're committed to it and then you know so you do it we make the art uh and and i remember uh uh board members wife turned to me and said whoa that was the most deeply affecting thing i've experienced and and for her it was like this consideration of there was a couple pieces and there were about motherhood and the mothering of black uh black youth uh and that resonated for her so it was like it was slow and methodical and uh and frustrating at times uh and um but but i always had my sights on where we were you know where i i could turn in this institution you know uh it's thrill it's it's thrilling in some ways also to i want to be very honest about this you know uh uh i i love my uh my predominantly black spaces and creating in those spaces and and the the joy oh god it's such deep joy i remember this piece sinking ink that was so fucking joyful because of uh our our shared uh histories and values um but there's also uh i've also committed myself to being a leader in non-black spaces uh and there's a uh a joy to that work too and in between there was also a moment if i understand right i didn't see all of it that next to covid next to lockdown next to the black life matters that inside the fleet was the bad say it was you know the the demand that we all have now for changing structures you know became strong voices and you stopped and you said no we have to rethink i mean maybe if you if you can if it makes sense if you tell us a bit about the experience and what it means for an institution to to reset yeah well look it began with uh individual artists speaking out you know uh i remember you know it was uh the movement was resurging and uh i decided uh we as a staff had decided that we needed to make a statement uh in solidarity with our black artist i decided that um as as a black man living in this moment and as a leader that that statement uh should be personal uh and so i i wrote a a draft of that statement and we decided it would start with the personal and then move to the institute uh sort of the institutional voice uh and an artist uh brinn carter who had a really difficult experience at our theater uh um you know wrote a comment to that you know you reached out and said brinn wow uh no you had a really tough decision it's time for us to make change uh why don't we have a conversation uh and uh brinn wrote a public letter that uh uh detailed her experience and that was the moment that uh that i think galvanized our our artists i did not think i know they've said as much uh and so the other thing that's incredible about a resident artist company is that they have a stake in it they're not just someone visiting for production and being supported by for a temporary moment uh and um our black artists let the charge you know and the other resident artists got behind them and they identified began the work of identifying the ways that now in reflection um i think it's useful sometimes to have regrets because they spur on the change that needs to happen uh i think that i regret that uh we were doing the work of diversity without doing the work of equity and inclusion because by doing that we created a space that did not fully support the diverse artists that were in the room okay and so this is this is what is at the sort of the center of what we as the flea are working on right now but we as an as an industry uh and as a field and dare say as a nation also need to be working on uh which is how do we uh elevate our black artists in particular and our artists of color so that they are at the center of all of our considerations not just this you know a story that we're we're going to stage and support and put in front of the audience you know very real things i mean look i began earlier by talking about sustainability and how you know we were making this slow journey to better sustaining our artists and we were raising money and we were you know raising stipends that wasn't enough that wasn't quick enough it wasn't fast enough it wasn't supportive it didn't give uh uh folks who are historically oppressed economically and socially uh the same opportunity to invest and engage in the work so immediately we have to pay our artists we have to you know it's got to happen quicker it's got to happen now so any show we do from now on artists are paid so we have to we are we are taking um this moment to completely rethink our producing model you know uh our artists have to be our resident artists have to be on our at all levels of leadership including on our board okay and in particularly our black artists who have historically not had those seats at the table okay i'm one person out of the leadership team that's not enough that's not that that's not enough change you know that's not enough different perspectives you know uh our uh resident artists have to be inside of season planning you know i was schooled you know i uh was mentored by george c wolf uh when george was at the public at a mentorship with um oscar eustis when oscar was at the public you know i was inside so i've been inside of traditional institutions you know the second stage uh and as we've been investigating what's been revealed to me you know that thing my dad's saying you know you have to play their game better than they played it that i've internalized the white man's game the power gets hoarded at the top and so i was hoarding power as an artistic leader around how seasons were planned you know and so now with the artist making that process not just more transparent but inclusive of the resident artist and so um i think people are probably interested to hear some of the specifics and one of the things i'm really excited about is once we've actually made our way through this process um presenting our our experience to the wider field in hopes that it can be useful to them but our artists started with demands they said these are things that have to change in order for us to continue working here uh and there are topics for discussion and uh thankfully because of the work we've done you know over the last couple years our board in leadership said yes right aha oh my god thank you for putting this in front of us so we're in a process of listening so that's a major point and uh and listening to understand not to respond okay so taking the time to actually hear and digest we're bringing in a mediator to mediate the conversation so that we can be as uh as bold and brave and honest in all of our considerations we are you know we're looking at things that like one of the reasons i'm at the flea is you know in alfalfa Broadway is you know you can do challenging work that is not about commercial success which means you can turn your attention to some really messy urgent things one of the plays i did was um about the the friends and family of a young black man who was killed by cops so what is the repercussion to those other folks left behind uh and the feedback some of the feedback we've gotten is that that was incredibly hard as an artist to get out six times a week and embody that and as a story that they are committed to but they didn't have the full support that they would have liked to have had to do that so you know it's just the way we're thinking in terms of supporting our viapak artist and doing the work is like is there some ombud ombud's person or advocate or mental health professional that is part of the creative experience that the institution is committed to it's it's great oh i have to oh my god the the best one that one of the really exciting moments was uh very early on in this process um we asked for a listening session with the resident company uh and you know we've got the listening session as we're starting at its own soon uh i meant to begin with an apology that i've written to the company for not um always standing up in the ways that i i know i should have uh and i'm in the first two sentences of one of our black artists interrupts uh within the chat function of zoom and says uh we the we the black resident artists of the flea uh would like to be leading this listening session so i'm reading this as i'm speaking i'm like oh okay sure of course uh and they take over the space and it's one of the uh i think one of the best most generous um yeah yeah prideful um moments of of artists saying we have to be at the center and we love this institution and we need it to work better you know and they had built this it was i don't want to call it a performance uh but you know they had written it and they had created space for all of their voices to be there and they had um been in touch with the rest of the company and all of the non-black artists in the company had moved their screens to black standing in solidarity with them um and and we got a chance to actually hear to actually listen that wasn't about leadership creating a space but actually leaders stepping up and saying this has to this has to be about us right now um so that's that's what's been inspiring about the moment is that like everyone wants it to work everyone wants the flea to work uh but i'm telling you we're starting from zero so what are our values okay uh how do we actually support those values day to day projection to production and include our black and people of color artists at the center of those that decision-making i know we're doing radical work you know they're going to get to see the the the operating budget duh you know that's how you set priorities where is the money going you know how much do we need to raise everyone knowing how much we got a raise to keep this you know this experiment of afa Broadway functioning and the way we want it to function you know but we're in it frank you know we're we're in i think that um um it'll be a few months before we can uh even start to build this scaffold of what the new flea will sit on but it's exciting it's incredibly exciting and i'm glad to be here i'm glad that these artists were here in the room were with us you know no i think that is uh it is quite uh quite stunning and uh quite amazing it comes to these deep questions um i mean i know there's this term of black pessimism that says institutions will never change we should get out well you know the philosophy of disengagement and also the idea of many say yeah even with the black lives matter institutions will say yes it's important and they matter and in new york city painted black lives matter in front of trumps building just last week some places in these country actually people go out and paint it over with black color yeah but um that this your institution in a way that you say uh well it's not about just the play we put about the way we produce it and uh that we have to act and live in the way we what we artistically demand and show and say we're just radically different from the old ways and we have a play this is great and there's actors of colors and it's very unique what you do is a real model if theater is important it is important because it's a model a state of imagination of symbolic representation that also is real if something happens in this theater can also happen in life but that this now happens at the flea in the institution that you're really questioning and implementing something is so incredibly meaningful I can only imagine also how hard it must be also for you having coming in there you brought in a lot of your artists and there's this kind of uprising where all of a sudden you are defending or responsible for things you know that has been ongoing or everywhere in society where you know this is no exception if at all the flea was much more attention to it so um I think it is quite um quite uh uh encouraging to hear that you're taking it also seriously that you go so deep and it is connected to the COVID time I do think that we all listen more that this happened that the artists were questioning whatever I'm doing here you know that uh whereas the money the time where there is till the end of the year there are no jobs for no one at the moment so um how did your board who maybe had no idea when they thought let's get a Nigel in and all of a sudden there is not only what you do on stage which they my friend and you did it so differently but now the institution is then you say we have board members and you have your as an artist as board members I mean that is a stunning thing there is a story like Tanya Bruguera Cuban artist said when she was by the date to work and she said I wanted to focus on women who really do work in the neighborhood and change community and they should be offered they also have a place and she identified a woman who has saved countless lives and for four weeks she named the Tate part of the Tate of the museum in London after her and they put her name on and then they said we have to change as an institution they kept her name and invited her to be a board member you know also in a way what you are doing um is a very deep rethinking and if Cedar can do it others can learn to really understand it but let's say you're board members who also I guess make a donation I can mostly be tomorrow a board member of the fleet if I give 200,000 the Lincoln Center has 86 board members all you have to do is 250,000 dollars a year there's not one artist as far as I know and even so then there's a small group of leadership that will make the decisions and the board members might hear a little bit earlier in after villages so so to change that idea what what really what I know it's a public call but so but what is your institution's thing what are the board members think what are they not or anything but yeah so um I can say first they're on board but how do we get how do we get to on board you know so part of it is the work we were doing over the years you know the the our board was in the midst of diversity equity and inclusion training uh before COVID came so we were wrestling with with these kinds of questions mediate her to do a workshop individual work on a group with the board yeah so it was it was a mix um she came in to work with our board as a whole and then in smaller groups uh to do diversity equity inclusion training so we're in the midst of asking these questions and also we were thinking about it look our goal was to uh our goal is to diversify uh ethnically our board that was our it was ethnic diversity that we were looking at and also how to create an inclusive space that as we invited these folks to join us on the journey uh they felt an equal seat at the table their space mate uh and another thing that was really exceptional uh as two staff members came into a board meeting uh and gave an impassioned presentation about where the staff and the artist were you know and having these other voices from our community come in and speak oh whoa okay so hearts are changing there's a deeper understanding and after that I remember Boor and we're saying wait not only do we need to include artists on the board it's probably about time we get rid of the give get yes we're all gonna keep giving our money but if we actually want and this is this is great because now the board is actually having the conversation themselves as opposed to me or a consultant coming in and bringing the ideas uh and so now the board is even thinking like how do we actually make sure this table is inclusive so like you're talking about you know the the give get that that cannot be a prerequisite to being a leader you know there are other ways of giving you know we need it we didn't look where the other people have talked about on this you know show the precariousness the economic precariousness of what we're doing and that is real you know the flea uh is you know operationally precarious and also particularly in this moment of not having any earned income from our productions um but that is not the only thing we're about and that could not be the only way we define uh leadership and success okay and also the I want to be also not just people give money but to be in a dialogue to be part of change and most people I know are great people they are serious people but often also I'm not asked to engage as you say staff or where's an artist or not so there is a chance to make something to have you know a collision of money and ideas and possibilities and experiences and that is richer for all of them because we do need to support us and there are people who do it they are great minds and actually also people really go to the theater go to the art and they could especially in New York City there's so many more other ways to support their own ideas or things than doing it for a non-profit theater so the question is how do we do something that's also exciting that creates more energy I think how Yong said about art um has it be have a symbolic function more energy has to come out radiate and was put in like wood stock you know people a big idea something was put in and it radiated the same concert today not wouldn't really work that way you could have the same musicians it done so at the time something came out we already had to find the symbolic representation the imaginary representation and signifiers that create that energy and the question is how can you do that and perhaps what you guys do and what Tanya Bogeier said perhaps changing the institution as institution defining it at part of the artwork the way you do it I think I think the next step for us is much like what Tanya was doing it's like you know one of the ways I imagine our field will reemerge in New York specifically is about a deeper engagement with our geographical location okay so folks may be less apt to get on a subway or get on some kind of transportation to get to the theater which is the way we thought about audiences before our audiences were coming from all over uh and so I think the next step to this because we're talking about the artists now we're talking about the staff now but who is our our geographic community and what is their investment you know folks stop by all the time you know like oh I saw the play oh I'm finally in the doors you know uh but Howard they're also their doors you know yeah it's true seeing Hans Hake the German artist I saw that at this I loved that exhibition and he had traced on the map of New York City where people who came to a museum show to his gallery opening where they lived so he would ask them and then went and took photos of their houses and then he had them as a part of an exhibition you know and and felt that this is something of significance we don't look at and yeah also what you say I think that is all significant and August Wilson wrote so much about it it's not okay just to say oh yeah we have death of a salesman with the black cars now that's the white experience of the American dream because a black salesman wouldn't ever believe the things Willy Loman would believe in because that's not the point we would have to hear the story from the black from your father you know and your mother who's doing surgery and he you know now works in prison or that so that's the stories we need to hear and there is a change how much of this what happened at the flea which was a stunning thing eruption the energy and the changes how much of it has to do with scovit you think of would that have happened anyway that's a great question um I know that we were uh on a path you know on a strategic path so I know that there was that the the economic part of this of paying the artist we would have gotten there at a much slower timeline you know so the inclusion part of this just beginning those conversations that would have taken oof years uh because our artist could focus and take the time in our community really could take the time to reflect and see and look back and also the energy of uh our movement said no now now is the time so yeah so yes because of this particular confluence of events we are moving at the pace that we should have been moving at before and that's that's also the thing that I hope that that we don't lose sight of in this uh that this moment is teaching us something about all moments you know that a fear that I I have and I know many of my black brothers and sisters have is that oh you're just paying attention for the moment and then things are going to change and this is going to stop being a priority because that's the script that's the history we all know that script you know and what's necessary now so so I'm excited by the fact that we all have to take this pause as we can actually practice and digest new modes of being because we have the time to actually make them our habits and our and therefore our values okay so the short answer to your question is the flea would not be making these bold choices if the if these events hadn't happened thank god they are you know because we were making at least I I was playing the institutional game I was going at the pace the institutions move it feeling the ship yeah you know that's why I've spent yeah my time of reflection how hard was this for you personally did it change you uh incredibly hard you know as a a black man it was the furthest from my mind that I would be complicit in a system that didn't fully support other artists of color okay that is that has caused a deep opportunity for for personal growth and change and consideration and I mean the thing that I think that of thinking about a lot is like you know I've been activist as well as an artist as well as an arts leader but somehow those things started to get siloed you know my activism took certain forms my art making was taking certain forms my leadership was taking certain forms you know and so that integration of uh of values or that reintegration because maybe I maybe I separated those things in order to survive you know maybe I was in survival mode to try to hold on to my seat at the table you know uh maybe I was in survival mode because only I could practice my activism in this way because to bring it in the other place would create some kind of rupture um and so this reintegration space uh and this atoma and this opportunity for creating something that better lives up to my own values and our values it's um it's been hard but I'm thankful I mean closer to the end but what is that if I can ask that it's of course the values your values the basis if you had to put it in was what in the moment now is being on the way what are the what are the core values so that's important to follow international listeners to hear how would you define them art is necessary artists are essential and deserve our respect and support and and equitable treatment we must fund it we must we must fund it and um and sustainability like we gotta sustain folks and we have to and then at the I think um when I think about it's must be equitable uh uh that each artist who wants to be able to take it an opportunity that the flea wants to provide them has to have the resources to be able to take that opportunity and then I think and then at the at the um I have a value of community and communal and that has uh one of the reasons I chose to throw my hat in the ring at the flea is that there is a community and that community is the artist there and the audience and so how is all of our choice making about the community so not about an individual or uh some bold vision one person has but like I keep thinking that if we get to the other side of this and there is a communal buy-in that that's that that's the flea I want then this is this is so so significant that we'll buy you know as you said earlier the new modes of being and to contribute to that and also for New York City which is looking for its identity you know it's what will happen and this a one million jobs are lost in New York City rents are actually going down and that latest studies must be saying you know that which has never happened many people who work from home offices will be empty it also means there will be more available and so maybe it will be closer to Berlin maybe there will be again a chance to reinvent and and that's the thing that everybody the Bonnie Morancas of the world tell us you know you had no idea how great it was in the 70s was all the complications you know this was a different town but um I think again art will play a great role and this is a great city and it but it has to reinvent yourself and what you are doing there that kind of painful births and all the complexities in it you know are part are really part of that and I can only hope other institutions would do the same they most probably won't but they could and this is something we can we cannot answer this is why your experiment or your journey your is of much larger significance also what will come out of it and and perhaps also then what additional changes it will bring in leadership and and models of of creating work work the way you produce it is also not separate from the aesthetic outcome and and and as someone said in our show um we want to produce something we also know hey how are you how are you feeling to be heard in something to combine these two things the laundromat project you know kemi and and they say you know what so we do something but how are you also in that same time something very simple but so complex and so this is a stunning what what what are your ideas are you what are your own projects or just the flea is there in that time where you stop down something where you say this is something I see or do you say this is now a moment where we like what chief sitting bull did he that's why he was named chief sitting bull in the middle of a battle he sat down and smoked a pipe because he had to rethink he didn't get in properly and then went back and they won the bottle by that what he did and so um so what is on the horizon is something you share or is that really not the question at all at the moment it's not the question you know this is the time for consideration you know and you can imagine there are poor members and funders who also have the same question you have what's next so what comes out of this right now is the time to listen and to rethink okay uh because we have to we have to serve our company and the black artists have to be at the center of that and elevated inside of that uh and we have to reemerge when we've we've got that vision you know uh when we've heard each other truly so you know of course you know I hope they choose to make something I hope the artists choose to to make a new thing I can't tell you what that is you know so like like other institutions yeah we've got commissions out there and things that could could happen you know but what do our artists need so I'm listening and we're considering and we're putting up plans and ideas so let's wait we got time I mentioned Annie Kaufman earlier she sent me another email recently uh and which you know she's part of this group that's rethinking timelines what are production timelines you know how do you actually get it and Frank you and I had this conversation years ago during prelude which is like and uh there is a scarcity energy in America around time and around resources and it creates certain consideration or certain factors that control art making here and we got to slow down we gotta be more intentional you know so the leader is over at the laundromat project saying how are you that moment of check-in oh that was that's another fascinating thing about this pandemic as we start you know we would get together as a staff on a zoom or on it as an arts call and we would begin with a check-in now why weren't we doing that before why wasn't it valuable enough to say hey how you what are you coming today with somehow the script had been I remember I remember learning the script in my theater training you leave it at the door you leave all that at the door you come in the room for something else no we're gonna bring our full selves here we're gonna check in with each other we're gonna listen to understand not to respond and then we're gonna make some great art well that's uh that's uh that's uh significant and important and to hear and also to understand and to to take that it was here really um thank you for sharing really Nigel thank you for taking the time and for your for your openness uh you know this intense experience you're going through to share it with us and to also make us aware of what you have learned because this is significant and what you what you do and and hope that also listeners people artists institutions and everybody in their lives really thinks through what that means if that's an authentic change also what's happened in our life or the institutions you are they are in iam and and some statistics also do say there's more money or the same money in the us as it is in europe but it's you said differently distributed artists often other curators they are in europe they are the leaders of the theater they make sure they do they are the board members here but the money of course comes from the city of the state so it's very unfair you cannot compare this to here they also disadvantages about it you know and here's the need to entertain that people have a good time in berlin and sometimes people have a good time in love it's suspicious the artist what did i do wrong you know and uh you know people will say it's a populist you know so it's so but there's some connection between these things and i think we have to find new ways and new forms and i think what you guys are doing there is really an experiment the real search for a new form that goes beyond formal structures of performances or presentations i'm really curious as everybody what will come out so really really thank you and yeah and i also remember brandon's play the neighbors we did one of the earlier meetings if not the first reading that right yes all the members who were upset and what the hell did we do fight for and you do this you know a community members who came and said well we have to deal with this and we like it or not and the idea of neighbors was in the very early on in some of the early writings of about america people from britain who went back and forth says that the idea of america was the neural neighborhood that you knew to your neighborhood and then it was an old euro class system was divided or you know or aristocratic structures dictators military leaders so i'm so i think this idea of the neural neighborhood that what you also don't bring this of real significance and also that's what makes new york new york that we have that so thank you really for this one i think really significant and important to talk we will continue in our big mission of or travel around the world and we will have tomorrow and with us john blot funny tell me who is belgium born playwright flat world war two with his family i think that joe schnauble came to new york and did the most significant many say anti vietnam play at lamar at the time america who are then went on to write many significant works later on the day of the dead the book of the dead performance and has enchanted a retreat upstate new york and he feels theater has to exchange or form also get closer to the spiritual side that have been a little bit lost you know what you also mentioned you're all the upbringing your connection what inspired you to come to this is something perhaps we also all should listen to so genre at least there's a great artist i think and so and that will be important and for next week we have again a bit look at new york harry that speech will be with us ping chong and will be visited the great muggle minds uh rebrew and what mitchell will be with us a very significant european director tiago rodríguez from portugal a very very important artist and a significant young director from valentine susanne kennedy who really is a stunning representative of what i call or we call here that the children of the digital age of the ones who also are producing your work she really incorporates the vr experiences the experience of the digital but also of of a generation that grew up theoretically different that we did on on a stage where she creates worlds that try to help us understand that everything we see is also created through our headsets through our vr system and the way what you say this change that takes place that to understand we see the world like through a computer game like through vr because that's what is in front of us but actually we are composing it it doesn't exist it's kind of a dreamlike thing with our brain puts together we need to understand that it's a particular experience and everybody has a different bond we have to respect and understand and get close on art can can be that susanne kennedy so we'll be with us i think it's on next tuesday again nigels thank you this was a really so important also for me to her it gives me hope it gives me also lots to think about also for me and myself and if there's any change we have to make ourself a change that is authentic it comes first and then also look at institutions see what does radical change really really mean and what you do there is of significance and an ongoing project and of course like everyone experiment with failures and back and forth but it's to to take these steps and the first steps in the long journey are the significant ones but uh thank you frank good beginning with work have done we say in so thank you and thanks to howl run for hosting this vj cia and uh travis san jong and andy from the sequel team and to you listeners really thank you for staying with us what naturally had to say is of real significance and importance and it stands for so much more than the world of the specifics he talked about and it's something to really consider to keep with us and listen and perhaps also to go back and also something to to support thank you all and i hope you will all stay safe do wear a mask stay tuned and tomorrow is another day and see you all on Monday bye