 Welcome to the RF Elements, unlicensed podcast. I'm Caleb. We're joined here by Tassos as always. Tassos, what's going on? What's happening Caleb? Oh man, this week we are having a conversation with Jeremy Austin from Prasim. So really looking forward to it. He's been in the industry a long time, really understands a lot of the sort of background where a lot of folks are coming from. And I think this is going to lead to a very interesting conversation. But before we launch into that, give the good people out there their call to action. Yeah, don't forget to like, listen, or subscribe to our channel right here on YouTube or anywhere you download your audio podcasts like Apple, Google, or Spotify. All right, all right. Well, let's go ahead and get to it. Jeremy, my man, we really appreciate you taking the time and talk to us today and telling us about you, your history, Wisp Life in general, Alaska, Prasim, kind of whatever you want to talk about. This is an open forum. And we're just here to talk things out and see what's happening, man. So thanks. Thanks again. Oh, awesome, Caleb. And thanks to you too. It's just going to be a really fun, fun conversation. You know, one of the things we joke about here in Alaska is, you know, with Texans, right? Because because everything is bigger in Texas. Our favorite one is, you know, one of these days we'll cut Alaska in half and then Texas will be the third largest state. Oh, God, this is going to set the tone for this entire conversation. That's the extent of my Texas jokes. Well, he was he was picking me yesterday and he was like, dude, it's already 95 degrees here. And then I just got back from Ottawa at the can list thing last week. And it was, you know, 11 degrees that first day that we're here. So I was very happy to be nice temperate North Carolina. So I'm like, I'm not really tempted to hit any of these extremes here. So yeah, it's going to be like 93 or 95 today or so. And tomorrow will be back in the 70s. I mean, it's just, you know, Texas can't decide what it wants for weather, right? And they have the saying here, right? If you don't like the weather, wait five minutes. I mean, literally it changes that quick. Yeah, I actually dropped by Dallas on my way down to West America last month. And that was really nice, nice spring weather, you know, like 65 or so. But I like, I'm in Anchorage now and I really like the climate here. It's coastal. And so it's, it's pretty mild year round. Well, and this has been old man weather talk with RF elements. So it's been a great conversation guys. We'll see you next week. But it is interesting. So living up there, you know, you've done a lot of wisp type activities and stuff up in the area, you know, pretty much as I understand your whole life or a majority of your life. It feels like it. Yeah. So it definitely brings some interesting things in that conversation. We talked a bit last podcast with Chris Johnson about working in Montana and things like power and a lot of these sort of things came into play that a lot of folks just don't really understand, you know, the importance of it and where it comes into. But before we delve too deeply into that, if you give us kind of a quick rundown of your history, you know, from, from wherever you would like to start. I mean, we're definitely not starting at big bang levels, but, you know, a fast forward a bit to how you got in the industry, where things have gone from you, and then kind of how you've gotten to be where you are now as the senior product manager of Prasim. Fantastic. Yeah. It's, it really is an interesting journey. You know, no one's journey is the same. And it's been, I was just thinking back over on it as we, as we got this podcast scheduled and I was actually thinking back to my, my youth where my dad was a hem radio operator. So I grew up in Southeast Alaska. I don't know if you're familiar with somebody holding up their hand with the finger, finger pointing to the left to show the shape of Alaska. So, you know, this is the panhandle down here where the thumb would be, you know, anchorages right here kind of between the fingers. So I've lived, you know, I grew up down in the panhandle and I've lived in the interior of Alaska and now I'm, now I'm in South Central Alaska. And I grew up on a farm on a very rural area on an island in Southeast Alaska. So we did not have anything like commercial power. We would run a generator, but we would really just run that for daylight hours. So, you know, we could, you know, keep the lights on and keep the refrigeration running and then we shut it off at night. So being isolated from the outside world like that, we still consider that it was important to stay connected and my dad became a ham radio operator and we strung up some, you know, some, you know, top some 80 foot trees in Southeast Alaska. It's a temperate rainforest. The trees get very large and, you know, we'd climb them for fun. So you top a tree, put up some ham radio aerials and then be talking to folks in South America or, you know, the East Coast or wherever, you know, you can do some really long-range communications. So we still tried to stay connected with the outside world. By the time I got to, you know, middle to late high school, the internet was just starting to be a thing. The web hadn't taken off yet, but there were, you know, like dial-in access to the internet. All we had was a 900 megahertz pot extender. So I could do about 300 bot over that. And I think I actually remember hooking up a modem to a, one of those bag phones really early on. But yeah, having no connectivity really made me be excited to kind of get out into the real world, you know, once I left home, but also gave me a real appreciation for the needs of people in, you know, rural areas or less connected areas. And, you know, that's, that's still, my parents still don't have great internet, unfortunately. I'm not a great kid because I, I went at, I left home and, and started making internet for everybody else, not my parents. Guess we'll have to wait for Starling. Same on you. Yeah, I hear that. About every six months or so, my mom's like, yeah, interesting stuff you do is really great. Could you get some of it down here? And I'm like, one day we'll see. One day we'll see. Yeah. So I, you know, went to college in Canada. I actually got a degree in music education. Kind of my first career was as a music teacher. And, but I never really did that more than, more than part time. And in fact, when I, when I left school, I went ahead and started doing web development because that was, that was 98 or so. So kind of web 1.0, you know, the big, the big.com boom, started doing web development and database development. And then a couple of years later, got into, into back into teaching, which is what my degree was in. So, so I kind of inherited a rural telephone company, not, not, not financially inherited, but, you know, the people who were managing it, they saw this, this young, bright kid show up who, you know, wanted to learn what a punchdown tool was. And they're like, Oh, you can run this thing. So I learned to learn to do, you know, copper telephony started doing point to point DSL fairly quickly. So those have been in the, in the nineties, right? But we were, we were still having to rely on, like bonding, dial up up links or bonding, you know, 56 K circuits to actually bring connectivity in. But then, you know, in a rural campus, you can run DSL anywhere you want. And I quickly started making, you know, village-wide networks. And from then, of course, wireless was a natural step. So the first, I was actually thinking back to the, to the antennas, the first, you know, kind of bootleg antennas I did, were the original antennas? Have you guys ever used those? I'm sure, right? I have, definitely. I've made a couple of my, of my own, too. Everybody. It was a thing to do. As soon as we realized that, you know, all antennas, you know, don't have to be omnie because that's what everything started. It's like, ooh, directional. That makes sense. You know, more power focused and stuff like that. So, yeah, that, that was definitely an easy one that anybody could make for like a buck. I remember the feeling of, you know, so there's an access point in the office. And I, you know, took the, took the ATV and, you know, drove just a few hundred yards across the, across the fields and put into that thing back at the office. And I got a connection. I got a link. That was such a great feeling. Yeah. The first time you stripped down a WED-11, put it in a little box or something, or the first sort of commercial link we did, it was, it was 20 miles on two four, the 24 DBI grid. I think we got maybe a mag out of it. And we're like, we've revolutionized the internet. Like, we'll never need more than this. And then, of course, then everybody started doing the same thing. And I was like, oh, we can't shoot 20 miles anymore. Oh man, this sucks. So dot, dot, dot, here we are. But I had a, I had a uplink, you know, initial uplinks, you know, kind of in the, in the free WISP era, just to kind of show the beginning of the WISP era were 802.11B. So I guess, I guess we had people doing wireless before 802.11B. So, you know, I, and again, had a, had a one meg connection to, to half a T1 10 miles away. And that was amazing. Right. Yeah. It's, it's, it's weird to see. I don't know that's necessarily weird, but just how bandwidth has changed and what was, you know, acceptable or considered great to where we are right now. And I think that the, the expectation of like needed bandwidth has grown far beyond the actual need of people as well. You know, I mean, you have people now, you know, getting multi gig into their house and stuff like that. And it's like, you know, we're not anywhere near needing that kind of bandwidth. I mean, of course, there's the one off things, right? You know, if you're, you know, a gamer and you, you know, you need to download, you know, two gigs or three gigs worth of, you know, code. Sure. I mean, it's nice to have, you know, a two gig a bit connection and get it, you know, in a minute or two, whatever it takes, you know, versus waiting an hour. But I mean, that's just such a small minority of it. But back in the day when we had, you know, like a Meg, which was probably 10 times faster than what we had before, you know, we could actually utilize that, that, that whole one Meg and be like, wow, this is amazing stuff. And yeah, there's, there's a huge disparity now between what's really needed and, you know, what's being offered. And, you know, you know, it really makes it difficult for a lot of the wisps in our space to kind of, you know, catch up and deal with that stuff. And, you know, I don't like the direction it's going when it comes to that stuff. But I mean, this is how, you know, technology progresses. I mean, it'd be great. I mean, if we can get 10 gig to everybody all the time, you know, why not? But yeah, it's, it's tough. I do like that idea of future proofing. You know, that was one of the reasons why eventually, you know, in the, in the, in the space I was working in, eventually, I really did need to move to Fiverr for distribution, right? The, there's an interesting point, if I can digress from my personal history for a minute when you're talking about that usage, you know, this is, this really is a lot about the story, right? People, people are hearing advertising that says, Oh, you need a gig or you need two gigs or you need 10 gigs. And while that very likely is true, eventually, we look at, you know, 20% growth a year is still a few years out before the average person really can even begin to take advantage of that. We did some, some analysis at Pre-Same, you know, my day job here, some numbers for CanWhisp. And one of the interesting facts that we found out from the most recent data, since of course it grows every year, we do have to keep it updated. And we put them out as industry reports, a fixed wireless report, for example. But one of the ones we've never put in the fixed wireless report is how much data do people use versus their plan speed. And we, because we find that, you know, the difference between a 25 meg plan and a 50 meg plan, it can make a difference in terms of what it feels like, particularly if you've got a bunch of people at home. But that doesn't necessarily make a difference in how much data is consumed. Like a 50 meg plan user does not consume twice as much data as a 25 meg plan user. And we actually, because we also have data not just from wireless, but from cable and fiber as well, we can actually extrapolate that line out on into the multi 100 meg plans, you know, the gigabit plans. And what we're finding is that you have to go all the way to basically say a 200 meg plan, four times that 50 meg plan to double the usage. So it's like a four to one ratio there. If we're trying to say, how much is this going to grow? You know, how, how future proof does my wisp need to be that line we're finding holds very steadily out, even if you're then migrating to something like fiber, which is going to have a much lower contention ratio. Yeah, I think also with, like you said, there's, there's the perception of how well it works. So I think with higher speed plans, you can also kind of mask at times some latency issues and stuff like that, because you're able to get so much more data in a smaller period of time. And this is, you know, specifically in wireless, right, because it is very time sensitive, you only have so many slots to transmit, receive data and stuff like that. So yeah, I mean, the higher speed connections can translate into a better user experience. But I mean, I think if you compare those higher speeds on a poorly built network compared to say lower speeds on a very well designed network where latency is traditionally low, you really wouldn't be able to see the difference except for those times when you're downloading a huge file. And obviously you're, you're, you're limited to whatever that the cap data rate is for that particular plan and stuff like that. But most people, most people never see it, you know, that's a hundred percent true. I would so much rather have, I mean, that's, I mean, we'll get to sort of like my mission and why I love being at pre-same, but this is so relevant to ASOS where I would much rather have a connection that's a little bit slower and has much better latency than a connection that's a little bit faster. In my, at my home, I'm, I'm connected to a WIST, you know, after I spent, you know, 20 years or so managing that telco and moving it through all the, all the generations of technology on up to, you know, microwave backhaul and lots of fiber distribution as well as a little bit of wireless remaining. I built Alaska's first LTE fixed wireless network. That's still in production today. And I worked at Alaska Communications for a couple of years. Alaska Communications is a tier two that has regional presence through most of Alaska, which is geographically a huge area compared to most WISPs, as well as undersea fiber to the Pacific Northwest. And Alaska Communications started getting into, into wireless back in about 2016 or so 2017. And so the connection to my home here in Anchorage is via fixed wireless and, you know, a nominal, say nominal 100 meg connection. And I also have a 200 meg cable connection, just as a backup, because I do need to have a backup connection. Since we, we run all the, yes you do, we run all the experimental code on my connection. I need to make sure that I've got a backup, you know, when we're, when we're doing firmware testing, for example. And that 200 meg connection or 250, whatever it is on the cable is terrible because it's not actively managed. It doesn't have good latency. As soon as you start saturating that upload, latency tanks, I'm talking like multi-second latencies, crazy. Yeah, the experience is king. Yeah, I mean, I, and I've talked about it multiple times on this show, you know, my, my, my biggest experience with, you know, having service from a WISP is, you know, out of my property, right? And, you know, I was paying, you know, huge amount of money, like, you know, close to a hundred bucks a month for a three by one connection, right? But I mean, I'll tell you that three by one connection was fucking solid. You know what I mean? Like I got three by one all the time. It almost never went down. I mean, honestly, it was very usable for what I needed, right? It's a weekend getaway. You know, the kids want to watch Netflix and stuff like this. But I mean, it was always there. And I mean, honestly, at home, right? I have cable internet and I don't even know what I have. Because when I, when I got it to write, it was like, you know, 50 by one or something by two, whatever it was. And I'm sure, you know, they keep on purpose bouncing it up. So it's probably like a 200 by something. But at times, the internet at my ranch was a lot better and more consistent than the 200 meg connection I had from the cable company. And as you know, from today, before we started this podcast, you know, the cable connection here, you know, bounced out and had to come back in as well. So reliability is a huge thing. And definitely, you know, I don't know what that number is. But but I think somewhere, you know, between 25 to 50 meg is I mean, I would say satisfies the majority of what people use the internet for, and especially the important things, right? I think that's that's another thing. I mean, as a society, we've changed as to what's really important and what's necessary versus what's nice and convenient, you know, and you know, is gaming necessary? No. And I'm not saying, you know, nobody should be gaming or anything like that. But if you think about the things that are truly important for, you know, your life in order to live it, you know, finance and everything is, you need to be able to work from home now, obviously, right? So what kind of bandwidth does, you know, the average household, let's say even two stay at home parents that are working from home, not stay at home, but working from home, that are doing zoom calls and stuff like that. It's like what five or six meg is probably enough for two of those streams, you know, and then, you know, casual browsing of the internet, right? So I mean, really, the need for what we need in order to live our lives and, and, and, you know, do all the things that are important is really, really low compared to, again, what's available. And again, you know, I'm not going to turn away at 200, 300 meg connection if it's affordable and it's in my area, why not? But I mean, I know I don't need it. And I just don't think most people know they don't need it. And I would like, you know, again, the consumers out there to just be a little bit more educated and, you know, you know, what what really matters and what plays into a good user experience, because it all comes down to user experience. And it has nothing that typically has nothing to do with the speed of your connection or less to do than you might think, you know, it's a better way of putting it. Thank you. You talked a little bit about the, you know, fiber or let's, you know, let's talk about fiber equivalents like millowave, where you can, you can band aid over the problem a little bit, right? You can, you can kind of push it out a little bit. But essentially anywhere you anytime you have a bottleneck where, where the connection changes in speed, you know, from a 10 gig to a one gig or from a one gig down to a 500 meg plan or from a 500 meg plan down to the wireless in your house, you know how hard it is to actually get 500 megs on wireless, even with Wi-Fi six, it's pretty it aren't hard. So, you know, we, we've found that at pre-seam obviously the best way to ensure that, you know, that both customers are happy and which could keep making money is to really help people understand that problem. And we, you know, maybe we haven't done such a good job of educating the general public. This is something that FCC is starting, you know, in the United States, FCC is starting to to work on again with the whole broadband labeling thing. But even then there's a whole bunch of stuff that's irrelevant that customers don't really need to pay attention to. They really need, I'd love it if customers were demanding. I want a really great experience, both, you know, with that personal service that Wisps are known for. And I want to have this be responsive when it's loaded up with a bunch of people in my house. Like I don't, I mean, some people, for some people gaming is their job. Like I don't feel like gamers need to be discriminated against, right? It's that it's that the properly designed system can keep everybody happy. And that that's shocking news to some people. Yeah, definitely. And that's, and that you brought up a really good point. And I think most of the Wisps that are watching this show would definitely agree if they were to look at their service calls and stuff like that. It's typically the, you know, the standard speed test, right? I'm not getting what I'm supposed to be getting. And, and I mean, I don't have this data, it's just my gut feeling. Because I know I've seen people, I have friends, right? And I see what they do. Because, you know, whenever they have a problem, who did they call? They call me, right? And they're like, I'm on my back patio, you know, with my cell phone running a speed test, I'm only getting 10 meg, what the hell's going on? It's like my, my internet sucks. I'm like, no, plug into your router hardwire to see what's coming in. Yeah, most of them are. It's like, yeah, I'm in the pool because my phone's waterproof. I'm underwater and I want to watch video and I can't, you know, whatever it is. And it's like, I mean, I think that's more of the education I'm talking about. Obviously, you know, what's needed for certain, again, certain tasks to get completed is one thing for things that you want, you know, considered enjoyment, right? You know, what would be entertainment, you know, gaming, streaming videos and all the other stuff, but also how it works in the house, right? Because this, this makes a big, a big difference on, you know, basically how wisps have to respond to these calls. And it really could help. It really could help because I think customer retention would, would go up, you know, if people truly understand the difference between, you know, this is not my wisps problem. This is, you know, D-links problem for selling me a router with nine antennas on it that says it does, you know, one gig over the air, you know, at 160 meg channel, but it doesn't work into the backyard, you know, because I have it in the closet, you know, that kind of stuff. Plugged up in the basement right next to the modem and then it doesn't cover their three-story house and they're, you know, surprised there. Or under the TV, you know, inside a cabinet under, it's 100% a, a customer awareness problem. Really, it is. And, and even the concept of the speed test, like it's such a, like, I love Ukla, I love speedtest.net, they really give a lot of data back to the community. It's a free service, you know, don't want to, don't want to trash speed tests or speedtest.net in general to name them specifically. But, but there's a lot more to the picture as we've been describing than, than hitting a speed test, you know. It's one of the things, I kind of want to put the blame back on, on the modem and router manufacturers in large extent. You know, you're talking about the, the advertising claims, but then also the fact that, like name, name, you know, a router that really gives you a real-time picture of what's going on in your network from a quality of experience perspective. I mean, many of them will give you some reports. I love Plume. I got Plume at home. It's a mesh network. And, you know, I, I do have an app that lets me know what's going on in terms of total bandwidth consumed. But even to go back to our point about, like, how much data do people use on a plan, that's not actually as important as how does it feel when it's busy, right? How much you're using in total is very seldom under your control. Like if you are a gamer, maybe you can schedule an update when that occurs. You say, oh, this thing's going to be 160 gigs. But even if you've got your iPhones, you know, it's going to be, that download may be configured to run in the background at some point, and you don't have any control over when that happens. And, you know, you're, you don't have any visibility into, like, what's actually going on. You know, I love, I love routers that have some kind of display, but nobody's really put on it, like this real-time graph. Here's, here are your devices, and here's how much bandwidth they're consuming and what they're doing. You know, it's a, it's a hard problem to solve from a user interface perspective. But I kind of, I kind of think it's on the, on the router manufacturers. They haven't had an incentive to do it. Yeah, but it's also like, you know, how many people are actually going to use that information and do anything remotely coherent with it. So, you know, the techie folks and our sort of circles we run with would, but, you know, for most people, if they're not using the modem or the AP that's built into their cable modem or whatever, they go down to the best buyer of the Wally world and be like, okay, this thing's 100, this thing's 120. Oh, this one must be way better, right? Because it's 20 bucks more. Check it in default settings, no firmware updates or anything like that. So, but yeah, you know, and there are some of these, I think more tech sort of, like the Amplify, you know, they've got some graphs and displays and stuff, you know, because they're, they're angling more towards that sort of gamer market or, you know, the upper, you know, the consumer sort of tech market and things. So I think we are seeing more of that. But I mean, just to your point, you see so many issues and support things that are related to that, you know, hey, I can get my speed and this could either completely saturated because you've got like four 4k streams running in the back that you don't realize are the internet or it's this ready AP problem and stuff. So, you know, if there was some sort of way to show that, it'd be amazing. I just, I don't know how it could do it in a cohesive manner for a very non-technical database or customer base that most of these are going for. That's a really good point. And that's also why, you know, like at Pre-Seam, you know, we really just to focus our efforts on the provider because we figure if the provider has the tools that they need, then there's still that interface with the customer and they can help the customer understand. And there has been a big shift in the list market towards moving towards a managed AP platforms. One, so you can control the hardware, you can control, you know, at least the quality of what you're putting in the house. But that managed service giving you insight as to the connection behind the wall, behind the CPE, I think is where the market has really shifted over to the last few years. You know, we've seen cameos and pushing it for a while with their pilot. You know, Calyx has gotten really popular lately, but now we're seeing a lot of these newer sort of pop-ups, Velo, TP Link has really gotten into the space and has really gotten popular. And I think that's the next sort of big movement from a quality of experience perspective to the end user customer is the management of that. But you've got to pay for it, right? Like this is all great stuff, but it's never free. So then you've got to weigh the, you know, is this worth it to me in the long run to reduce the support? Yeah, the same sort of things you guys hear about plenty, I'm sure. Yeah, that's not a very good point. I think back in 2016, when I was building that LTE network, I said, you know, this is the future. It's going to be managed. And we just went managed entirely from day one. It's going to be just price that in, factor that into the price and do it, don't even do it as an add-on. And you're definitely seeing, you know, the Calyxes, the AdTrans, the TP Links. Plume has been a huge success story. If you look at, you know, their penetration in the market, you know, they've got to be well over 25 million in the US alone. You know, that's a really big chunk of what is a pretty fragmented market otherwise. And it really does come down to that, well, let's get the experts who can look at it to pay attention to it. You know, the end user, give the end user enough control and enough data so they can understand, you know, is it healthy or not? And it's hilarious that we're seeing, you know, within just a few months time, we're seeing the release of this idea of scoring that customer experience. Give, just give a number, right? We're seeing it. We've seen it from Calyx. We've seen it from, I'm trying to think of the other one that we saw from recently, an operator, you know, a home router vendor. And of course, with Precime, we brought out our RF analysis features just before Wisp America. And that certainly wasn't something that we did in a month, you know, came to Precime at the end of 2020. And, you know, it took us, you know, from then until now to really get that to market. So apparently, apparently great minds think alike, right? Everyone's was doing the same thing at the same time. It really focusing on that customer experience. Right. Well, I think it's the next sort of major competitive thing. And especially with Wisp was so important because, you know, when years ago, when you're like, Hey, this is your only option, you know, here's your half may, it works as well as it works, as all we can deliver. Because, you know, that's what the tech can do in the size of the networks. But now, as networks get more dense, and as you can honestly compete with your cable codes, your fiber codes and stuff like that, in terms of speed and performance, now that the end user, the field just all goes into the sort of customer service aspect of things. So I think that's where we're seeing a lot of focus or at least in our industry, moving towards that as well, because it's just yet another competitive thing that they can offer that, you know, your con casting your spectrums don't give to your ass ass about. So I want to ask a question for you guys. So obviously, the six gigahertz spectrum is not fully open. But I did an analysis of how much spectrum is available to us. And to me, this really looks like a game changing amount of spectrum. Like you're going to be selling a lot of antennas, right? Yeah, it's huge. It's huge. I mean, it's depending on where it goes. But I mean, it's practically, I mean, it's split between the indoor and outdoor, right? So I'm not quite sure exactly how much is available. But I mean, it's about a gig, right worth of bandwidth that's available for indoor and out. And that's really what we're waiting to hear is, you know, what's that final number? What's really the outdoor, you know, band? Because, you know, when it comes to making antennas, I mean, we can make wide band antennas, I mean, are five gig or pretty much five to six, right? So one gig wide. But if you if you know that the operational bandwidth is smaller, then you can make a much better antenna if you tune it specifically for that more narrow band and get even better performance, maybe even more gain. And, you know, purposely like for us to go and just make a six gig antenna from six to seven, you know, wouldn't really be the right thing to do. Because, again, if we wait just a little bit longer, we can tune it to, let's say, whatever, you know, six one to six five or something like that and get much more performance out of it. And I think, you know, we see it with other manufacturers, they try and go as wide as possible to cast the widest net to catch the most customers without really, you know, from what I say, they don't really care about the experience that the customers will see, they just want to sell antennas, we want to make the best antenna and give our customers the best user experience. And that's, that's why, you know, it's really important to wait for some of this stuff to get hashed out so that way we can deliver the best possible product. Now, you know, our antenna is already designed, right. So we kind of know where it is. So it's a matter of, you know, you know, designing them, you know, in the design tool, right, you know, coming up with the shape, the size for all the different things, you know, we can have a, you know, from six, six to seven gig. And if we know we might make a six one to six five or whatever on the higher side, whatever it is, and then, you know, once it's time to go to manufacturing, it's time to go to manufacturing, right. So I mean, those designs, you know, are done ahead of time. And we just fine tune it right at the end. And then we go to production. So it should be, it should be fairly quick. And, you know, of the offering we already have, all of our symmetrical beam antennas, right, which would be all of our symmetrical horns, obviously. But then our ultra horn and even our ultra dishes, right, the parabolic dishes are symmetrical beam, meaning that they're just as wide as they are tall in that RF pattern, they already go up to 6.4. So for a lot of the, you know, test radios that are coming out and some of these pre test licenses that are out there for six one to six four, our antennas are ready to rock and roll as it is. So it's really the asymmetrical antenna that was a very difficult task to get the performance we get out of our asymmetrical horn compared to other ones on the market is just night and day difference. And, you know, it was very difficult to get that whole one gig from basically five one to five nine almost whatever it is. And it stops at six and still maintain that flat gain across the entire spectrum that balance beams with a vertical pattern and a horizontal pattern pretty much overlay almost exactly on top of each other. And again, because of, you know, the shape of that beam pattern, it really requires a lot of engineering to get it to play well in that frequency range. So really, that's that's probably the one that will take the most work in order to get it to be wherever that, you know, you know, Wi-Fi six spectrum will be for outdoor to make sure it's tuned the symmetrical one should be fairly, fairly easy to get to work up there and stuff. Well, there's also a non zero chance that the FCC doesn't screw this up completely to you. It's kind of funny, like, because, you know, we're waiting on the AFC and everyone's like, cool, all we need is the AFC, then we're done. That's like, well, you know, if you look at some of these experimental analysis and STAs that are going up and people are testing and you read through the nitty gritty, you know, it's very clear there's a 36 dBm ERP, which we all kind of know about. But if you read closely, the max ERP of your antenna, your max gain in your antenna still listed as six dbi. So yeah, 36 ERP, but only six db dbi, excuse me, on your antenna, which if they sort of stick with that and don't change it to be flex like they do in five gig now or, you know, similar to two or four or something, then we're all going to jump off a bridge. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's the other thing too, because I mean, a big portion of what Wi-Fi six brings is 4096 quam, right? And we already know now with 1024 quam, in the regular five gig band, practically every radio out there, I think for 1024 quam has a maximum TX power of about, you know, let's say 18 dBm or something like that in order to maintain that modulation rate. Now, when we go to 4096 quam, because again, that modulation rate is very, it's a very difficult technique to disseminate, you know, the constellations and stuff like that and, you know, get the data out of that, you know, that RF signal. I mean, I would imagine, I mean, it's probably, you know, one X lower, right? So we're probably looking at these radios when they come out of 4096 quam being a max, you know, TX power of maybe about, you know, 15 dBm. So if you put 15 dBm, yeah, exactly, exactly. So 15 on the TX power and 6 on the antenna, you know, we're below, almost below the, you know, the DFS, you know, total power output and stuff like that. And then, you know, the radios will be so, so deaf on the receive side with that little gain, which, you know, again, that's really something I'm waiting to see how all that hashes out, because it's really been something that we've been talking about for a while with, you know, shrinking your coverage area, right? So I mean, the industry is finally moving and realizing you need to get your customers closer to your towers and stuff. Well, when Wi-Fi 6 comes out and people are going to, you know, they're going to want that full, you know, 160 meg channel, which is yet even lower TX power, right? At, you know, 4096 quam, I mean, we might be talking distances of, you know, a mile or two max, you know, with, you know, dish antennas on the CPE side of, you know, probably 30 dBi minimum, you know. So yeah, it's, it's, there's going to be a lot of education that's going to need to be done. And we're starting some of that now to really let people know. And 1024 quam, you know, the, you know, the LTU from Ubiquiti does 1024 quam. And I believe like the 4000 or the 400 series now from Cambium is doing 1024 quam as well. That shrunk it even more. So at 256 quam, I mean, this is like the kind of general rule of thumb, right? So, you know, at 64 quam, right, which is 802.11 and the standard radius 10 miles, right, was pretty much what it is. 256 quam came out, you have it, right? You know, because it's 3 dB less basically, it's, it's roughly about five miles or something like that. Again, it depends on the CPE. You can go further and stuff. At 1024 quam, you know, we're at like two to three miles max. And when I say max, it's with a decent, you know, acceptable size antenna on the CPE side, because that's really what it comes down to. So I don't know how many, you know, customers out there are going to want three foot dishes on their, on their house. Now, I, we've talked to many wisps and they already do it, you know, even Chris Johnson, right? He's putting three foot dishes out there because, you know, in order to get, you know, four miles or something like that at and get that 10x connection on an LTU, you need a three foot dish, right? So, man, you know, we might be talking four foot dishes on people's houses. So, so there's really a lot needs to, a lot needs to happen. And people really need to understand because, you know, at some point, you know, this, this six gig stuff at 4096 quam almost has the same effective range as, as 60 gig at this point, you know, probably going to, it's going to have much better rain attenuation specs, right? So that's, so at least you might get that, you know, two mile or less, but it doesn't matter if it rains type of connection where, you know, with 60 gig, yeah, you know, you know, on a perfect day with no humidity, yeah, maybe you can go two miles with it. But, you know, as soon as it, you know, the humidity goes above 50%, you know, things drop down and start to fall off. So, so I feel confident in the six gig that the connections, regardless of weather and not 100% regardless, obviously, you know, torrential downpours and everything else, you'll have a pretty repeatable and a pretty consistent, you know, deployment distance for that kind of gear. But it's going to be another wake up call because again, this, the stuff is growing faster than, you know, Wisps can build out their networks in order to, you know, put those towers up closer to their customers. So it's going to be interesting. That's 100% true. Yeah, we estimate between 17 and 20% compound growth year over year is what we've seen steadily. And in what other industry can you be expected to lay down, you know, 20% more water pipe or 20% more roads? And, you know, so in this case, like you could take the gains either with a 20% improvement bump, but you don't even get a 20% improvement bump going to 1024 quam, let alone 40 and 96 quam. I think people had to mention that. And this imagination that, oh, it sounds like it's four times as big as 1024. No, it's single digit percentage improvements. Yep, exactly. Exactly. The jump from, you know, to 256 quam, which is your your prisms, your EPMP 3000, those type radios, it's, I think it's somewhere between 20 and 30% more throughput for, you know, it's four times the modulation, but I call it doubling, right? You go, you know, 256 goes to 1024 goes to 4096 is, yeah, it's essentially, like I said, 20 or 30% more throughput. It's really about the larger channel sizes, you know, in these newer radios that, you know, deliver really these higher data rates that everybody's talking about. But I mean, shit, you know, Wi-Fi 6 is going to get trashed the day it comes out almost, you know, if everybody's running 160 meg channels, hopefully, hopefully people learn and they're not, you know, deploying these things with sloppy sectors and stuff like that, with lots of side lobes and treating all these problems. I mean, I can go back about three years ago or something like that, when 60 gig, maybe it's two years ago, 60 gig was, you know, coming out, it was fairly new. And everybody kept talking about these pencil beams. You know, one of the beams like a pencil, you know, there's no whatever. And, you know, it's such short range and attenuate so fast, we didn't ever have to worry about noise. I'm like, dude, trust me, it's going to catch up with you. There's no way that it won't. And here we are, you know, two plus years later, and people are like, wow, I mean, I have a noise issue, you know, with my 60 gig stuff, because again, it's limited spectrum. They're running the widest channels they can. They're putting them so densely together because you have to, because the coverage areas are so small, and it's creating big problems. So, when you go to a lower frequency, which propagates even further, I mean, jeez, you know, we have to be smart as wisps when deploying these networks and truly start engineering this stuff. Now, hopefully, you know, the SaaS and everything helps, you know, so we don't oversaturate areas and control some of that stuff. But that's going to be, again, that's going to be even more interesting. It's almost like the whole thing will be like DFS, you know, and people are going to be bouncing channels and jumping around. And I don't know, I don't know how that's truly going to work. You know, if somebody comes into your area and wants to fire stuff up, I mean, will they just get denied a license, you know? No, nothing to do with that. Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, yeah, it's going to be the Wild West. It's really going to be running out there, grabbing as much land as you can, as fast as you can, sticking your flag in the ground and saying, this is my Wi-Fi 6, you know, and be the first one out there is really what it's going to be like. And I'm afraid that, again, you know, Wisps will run out and, you know, maybe run, you know, powers they should and to knows and, you know, in order to cover an area, they might try and go with the widest sectors they can to just, you know, again, not put this huge capital expenditure to build these dense networks like they do now with horns in the 5G area and start doing them with, you know, more wider, sloppy sectors just to be the first one out there and start creating problems from the beginning. I truly hope that doesn't, it doesn't pan out like that. Yeah, absolutely. And I completely agree about the need to engineer it. And this is, that's one of these things that I can remember in the early days of when I was getting into wireless where, you know, wireless engineers were mad that ubiquity gear was available, right, because it meant that anybody could go slap up a power beam and start polluting the airways. So, which on the one hand, it's a great democratization of the technology. It really allowed people, allowed myself, allowed other people to, to, you know, really serve their local communities. You know, I wouldn't have had internet if I hadn't run, run some ubiquity gear, right? I had to do it myself. That's how I, like so many of us, that's how we got into the business. You know, we would have been stuck without it. And then you find yourself realizing, oh, now I need to actually learn about this, you know, there is no free launch. Eventually you start saturating your spectrum or you start dealing with self interference. And I think that's one of the things that's ideally self correcting about the people who are running illegal power levels. Just as power levels are there for a reason, you know, we don't, we don't collect that data at pre same. So I can't give you any hard statistics on it. But we encourage people to run whatever, whatever regime they're in to, to run legal power levels, because really, ultimately, you're the one who's going to suffer the most, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think again, you know, not to beat Wi-Fi 6 up, you know, here, but it's really going to all come down to education. You know, you wrote up a good point. I mean, I remember when Ubiquiti came out and everybody was, like you said, they were pissed because it was so cheap. Anybody can start a Wisp and stuff like that. And it really, it really wasn't, I mean, it seemed like now anybody can come in and start this business. This should have been a special business, blah, whatever. It was really about the education of the people that were coming in. Ubiquiti made it so easy. And they did a horrible job or actually no job at all of educating their customer base on how this stuff works. And therefore, they went out and built illegal networks with again, too much power and the wrong antenna technology to make all this noise and the other things that came along with that. So it really wasn't about opening up the markets to entrepreneurs to build businesses. That was fantastic. And I give them full credit for that. That was amazing to come in and disrupt the industry and make it affordable for people to start these businesses and stuff. But they did a shit poor job of educating the users on how this stuff should be used and used properly. And for 6GIG, it's really going to, it's going to take that again. I mean, it's really going to require education. And I remember hearing when the AirFiber 11's and was it the B11? And I think there's, is there a B18 now from them? Also, do they have an 18GIG? But when that when that stuff first came out, it was the same exact thing. People are like, damn it, now they're making it so easy that anybody is going to have a license link. And you see it now, it's hard to get licenses because everybody is putting them up. And that is the right thing to do. I mean, we have to, we have to get our back calls off of the unlicensed spectrum and onto licensed stuff. But it creates a whole another problem. By making it affordable, more people were doing it, which was again, it was the right move. But I mean, it's getting thrown up everywhere and it's making it difficult to get licenses. So I think that, at some point, that's going to be the next thing. The e-band stuff, I think, is going to be perfect for Wi-Fi 6 networks, because again, the towers should be closer to each other. So making those back call connections that are two to three miles or something like that and transferring high throughput from tower to tower is going to require that type of equipment. So that's going to be great for companies like Aviat and everybody else out there that are making these things. Or even in the point to multi-point stuff, Tossus, with the, I would love to see products that pair 60 with some horns, right? Where you can fail over to, let's say that you've got some opportunistic 6, it'd be a fantastic pairing. That's one of the things that I think we're going to see, just multi-band in general, we're going to see some growth there because there really is no one size fits all spectrum for any circumstance, or even antenna, right? We've gotten away for a while, but look at what the cell industry is doing. They're bonding all kinds of channels together because they realize you've got to do that. There is no one band or one antenna that's the holy grail. If I can talk a little bit about what I've been doing at Pre-Seam, because this is really relevant here, when you talk about this education problems, let's talk about the, let's explore this sort of, it's not strife exactly, but this challenge that vendors have in both educating their operators how to use the gear and the operators saying, hey, you made the gear that I could turn up to illegal power levels or whatever the case may be. That's kind of an extreme case of what I'm describing, but we talk about at Pre-Seam, the vendor has a spec sheet, and the radio should match the spec sheet, right? It says, okay, and they generally do. They have to go through, in the United States, they go through FCC certification process, you can trust those numbers, right? However, those are all dependent upon how the operator deploys it. You've got to put the right antennas on it, right? You've got to understand that the modulation is based on SNR, not on receive level, right? Because they don't usually publish those numbers, they publish the receive levels, but that's assuming a virtuous noise floor, right? So, I saw the extent of this problem, both at Alaska Communications where we were dealing with gear from a particular vendor, where it wasn't always even possible to tell from the vendor numbers exactly how this equipment was doing. Like what we were seeing in terms of real world performance wasn't just a case of it not matching the spec sheet, because I don't think that was true. It's really that if you don't deploy it correctly, if you have an education problem internally, let's say that, or say you're a startup wisp, which in the case of many of the people that I've worked with, they've gotten into it without having RF experts on staff, right? And I don't even consider myself an RF expert. I just think about it, right? I realize I've learned from my mistakes, and I think about it, and I go talk to the people who I know are RF experts, right? So, I said, we need a system that really lets the operator know how well the equipment is doing at the RF layer without not shortcutting this learning process. Very often, we see the folks like yourself to ask us where you have this gut understanding of the difference between efficiency as you change modulations and these ranges, they're in your heads, but to a new guy starting out, he isn't going to have any idea about this. He sees the spec, 40 kilometers, I can do it, right? And it's all the if, if you do X, if you do Y, with the right antennas, with the right environment, and clean weather, and the corn hasn't grown up. So, what I did is with the help of the folks at Pre-Same, we've built a system which essentially scores every piece of RF equipment that you've got and says, here's how well it is performing, and we do that based on how well it's performing based on real-world performance from our entire global database of operators. So, we can tell you, this is what you should be able to get out of this equipment in a real-world deployment, right? Where you've got some noise maybe, or maybe you're in a coastal area where you don't have any competitors, you've got no noise at all, you'll be able to see that too. And that allows you to very quickly tell, what do I need to pay attention to most on my network? And as an expert, you can look at it and say, okay, I'll look at a two-week graph or whatever and I'll get some idea of, okay, that's fluctuating more than I expect or that's lower than I'd expect for this time of year and this level of rain, you can get a sense for that, but then you got to know the channel width, you got to know the frequency band, all the timing parameters, all these things you have to have in your head. So, we make experts faster because now they can look at the gear and immediately see objectively how well is this piece of equipment performing. And that's the part that's essentially under the operator's control. So, with that data, not only do you know, what do I need to go fix on my network, but then we also include the user behavior side. So, that side's all separate from user behavior, the end user behavior. Then when we take the user behavior into account, we talked about that usage, peak usage on a 50 meg plan is going to be higher than 25 meg plan, but it's not by twice as much. You can't just look at total volume of data. You've got to look at what's the burden that that user is placing on the network. One of the things I like to say is we, customers buy bits from us, but we actually sell them as airtime. I mean, that's what you guys of RF elements have done is educated people to say, you've got to preserve your airtime, you've got to get your modulation rates up, you've got to get your sectors clean. You've got to cut down on those side lobes. It's been a tremendous education job that you guys have been doing. And we're kind of showing now the other side of that. Here's what you're actually getting out of the equipment now that you've deployed it. This is under your control. Combine that with the user behavior and now you can immediately see what kind of ROI am I getting? What equipment do I need to go fix first to free up airtime if that's customers in the field? Ideally, to reduce needing to do a truck roll. So we consider that to be part of the umbrella of quality of experience that we've been known for at Pre-Seam or we're measuring latency and loss, but now we're actually telling you how is it performing at layer one and operators are really appreciating that. Yeah, especially when you're with startup and you get past the sort of freshman year issues, like just trying to figure out, how do I put this on a roof and how do I do that? Like eventually get to the point where like, hey, this seems to be working. We're happy. But are we? And then you kind of move that sort of sophomore year where you're like, well, yeah, it's going, but we don't really know how to judge. You know, we could look at a specific data point and see if it's okay. Or you're always chasing it. Yeah, exactly. You're like, hey, this a, you know, I haven't had any complaints about this AP for a month. And now I'm getting a lot. And why is it? Because I mean, it's on and people are still connected. But you know, it's a deeper insight, I think that leads to a lot of the value proposition of what you're talking about. And that 20% like if you if you do anything, this is the rare industries, I suppose, where if you do nothing, it's going to get worse because people are going to use more like this. You got it. It's like Alice in Wonderland or through the looking glass where she's with the Red Queen and they're on the chessboard and they're they're running running as fast as they can. And they end up in the same place. This is you have to run faster than that to get ahead, right? You're it's this constant battle. And that's what we're hoping to operators. As you say, it's definitely a kind of a year two problem where you you start to scale up and you start to have parts of your network that are congested. And you say, Okay, am I am I actually getting the ROI that I need from from from that equipment? Because you know, you, you can only do so much as a favor for so long. And then eventually you have to make sure that you've you're building as you said, get closer to end user tasks that you're talking about with, you know, making your cell size is smaller, everybody's having to go through the same pain. And we just hope to optimize that to just cut that pain down as much as possible, can't eliminate it. But let's just make it as easy as possible for you to make the best decisions about your network. Yeah, definitely. I mean, this is where things are actually getting better. And I mean, social media, you know, the one thing that it's really good for is, you know, sharing ideas and stuff like that. And where it's where it's really, really helping because, you know, in, you know, a few years ago, we'd constantly see, you know, customers going out, you know, building these networks with no forethought and, you know, really no, no idea because maybe they didn't have, you know, a place to get all the information. And I see a transformation happening where we have more wisps, you know, coming to us, let's say, you know, building their networks with our horns starting off. Do it right first. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So I mean, that's something we always said, like, you know, a lot of people would be like, well, yeah, you know, I don't need your antennas, whatever. I'm in a rural area. I'm the only guy out here. And I got no noise. And like, we'll give it time, you know, noise, we'll find you. And, you know, then, you know, a year later, they're coming back and like, well, you know, these things aren't performing very well. And so, so, so new wisps are seeing earlier on that you need to build it right from the start because it's going to be, you know, less of a forklift later for you to fix those problems. So that's, that's the good news coming out of this. And really the benefit of education. And I wish, you know, more manufacturers would, you know, hop on board and do this kind of thing to educate the user base out there. Because again, you know, if we want to say relevant as an industry, we have to make sure that, you know, we're building these things right from the beginning. And we're teaching the new blood coming in because I love the new blood, you know, I want to see more people building wisps. But they have to do it right. And I've kind of, you know, you know, when a wisp goes out there and builds a bad network, it's really not just hurting them, it's hurting the other wisp because I've talked to so many other people that have been like, Oh, you got that wireless service. That shit is crap. You know, I'd never do that because they were in an area and they had a wisp, we didn't know what he was doing and he built a crappy network. And therefore, they just puts a bad taste in their mouth. So we have to change things around, right? You know, I think the big telcos and the Verizon's AT&T's, T-Mobile's of the world, they're on a different level and they have that, you know, the customer base has an idea and they're starting to distinguish between the two. It's not completely clear yet that they're different than us, right, in the fixed wireless world of us wisps and stuff like that with the equipment that we use. So a lot of the problems that they see, you know, will translate into what potential customers of a wisp might think. At the same time, they're also helping, right? Because in some areas where it's working well, you know, and people are on, let's say, an AT&T, LTE, CPE at their house and they're getting good service and it happens to be working for them and stuff, that's good advertising when they move out of, let's say, a city and go into a more rural area and there's a wireless operator out there like, well, wireless thing worked, you know, pretty decent for me. So, I mean, it can help and hurt but we have to make sure that we distinguish ourselves differently from the carriers out there with our technology, what we can do, the, you know, the services that we can provide, you know, and say this is how we're different and really create that, you know, marketing message for ourselves because nobody else is going to do it and the first way you do it is with customer experience. Everything comes down to customer experience because word of mouth is king these days, you know? Yeah. And there's an interesting point that you're raising about the encroachment because we look at the, we look at the growth because we're seeing the reports of, you know, how many hundreds of thousands of subscribers the big carriers are adding in fixed wireless and it is not cutting into the majority of wisps. Like the majority of wisps, you know, we see how much our wisp customer base is growing. Wait, we have that directly. We know that directly and that's, you know, sure the market is, for fixed wireless in general, is growing and taking away from some, you know, DSL and cable primarily. It doesn't usually take from fiber but it's a situation where the, you know, the large carriers aren't doing rural for the most part. They're doing, you know, they're doing more millowave. They're doing areas where that is, it's going to be cost effective because you're not having to run fiber, for example. And on the other side, on the extremely rural side, you're seeing some encroachment from Starlink. Starlink is also, if you look at their, they have actually put out a coverage map now, you know, with the number of satellites they've got up, they have so much spectrum reuse and they have significant chunks of the country that are now fully saturated already until they can launch some more satellites, presumably. And so my, you know, my crystal ball that I was legazing into a couple of years ago, I actually wrote a blog post about this last year where I said, you know, you, Wisps need to not be scared about Starlink because it's going to be amazing for the people in that, you know, that one person per square mile, five persons per square mile, where guess what? It never was cost effective for Wisps to deploy. And so Wisps are going to, I mean, I honestly, I feel it's doing us a favor because one, it gets people used to wireless, but two, they're getting, they're taking the customers that you don't want as a Wisp. You can't make money off those customers. And so I, you know, maybe we're sandwiched in the middle here between the, the, you know, the mobile operators turned, turned fixed. And, you know, Leo, low earth orbit on the, on the low end. But I feel that really helps Wisps actually just optimize, do the things we're doing best that area where there is word of mouth as you're saying Texas. Yeah, definitely. And I think over time, it's going to help us more than it's going to hurt us because I believe for, you know, the majority of these customers, like you said, first, you know, they're ones that you never would reach or you couldn't make it work in order to go out there because that's the kind of tower with an omni type deployment for that type of low density. But the other thing is too, is I think from what I'm seeing from people, you know, is that they are stealing away the, what I would call fireable customers, right? Those ones that are pain in the ass, they're just going to leave you just because there's another option out there. And because, you know, they think the grass is greener somewhere else, right? So we're starting to see that already with, you know, someone saying, yeah, I just picked up another Starling customer or the Starling customer came back or whatever it is. It's just like, don't be scared of it. It's going to happen. Let them go. And they'll come back home because once it gets saturated, they're going to realize that it's no different than, you know, any of the other, you know, big box type things where, you know, when you reach out to the masses like that and you're signing up subscribers, you know, by the fistful, it's hard to maintain that, you know? And like I said, you know, try, try getting tech support, you know, or something else to happen or, you know, call them up and complain that your D-link isn't working or you're not getting the Wi-Fi out, you know, into your, you know, by your pool or whatever it is in your backyard and having them go through all that stuff. So it's just a matter of time. I mean, it is a great service. I'm glad they're doing it. It will, you know, all this competition is always good, right? So if anything, I could see the positive of, you know, again, the hardware manufacturers in this space trying to come up with a solution to combat it, right? And something that will allow people to go deeper and push further with at least the decent speeds. You know, again, these hybrid networks that you were talking about earlier, you know, where they're, you know, they're combining channels together to get more bandwidth and do different things. And, you know, I can see something like this, you know, bringing 2.4 gigahertz back to the game again or something like that in some of these areas or these lower frequencies, just doing something interesting. Because again, even in these really low dense areas, I mean, for them, you know, they would love to have a five meg package, you know? I was happy with the three meg package to at least be able to work from home and do a conference call or whatever. So there's definitely a good market out there for the Wisp industry. It's going to take, you know, the hardware manufacturers to come up with something that's viable for that low density install. Because up to now, it's all been about density. You see all the new equipment that's coming out. It's about customer subscribers, you know, pushing, you know, hundreds of customers onto one AP in the widest area at the highest speeds doing these amazing things, which probably won't do all those things at the same time, you know, it'll just do one or two of them. But I think it would be awesome to see a manufacturer step up and take a step back and say, okay, how do we really now? Because we've changed the game, right? Us Wisp's have, you know, made, you know, rule America, you know, something of what, you know, yeah, viable and something that is you would consider you'd see in the cities, right? Or in the suburbs and stuff like that. So the map of rule America has to be redrawn because now what was rule America is no longer that, you know, in the broadband world. So I wish a manufacturer would step up and say, okay, now how do we go and get those the real last mile guys that are out there and can't get anything else or satellite is the only option? How do we serve those people? And I know like TV white space was one way of doing that. I think that's a lost gamble. But yeah, I think I think I think there's really something that still could be done. LTE, right, is one of those things. I think it's probably it, you know, cost are kind of high though, for that low density for some wisps as well. But it's really going to be about frequency. And it's going to take, again, education, because, you know, those those areas are going to have to realize that, you know, you're not going to get the 100 meg package, you know, you're not going to get 200 meg out there and huge uploads and stuff, it's going to be slower, but you're going to have connectivity and over time, things will get better and the technology will improve. But until somebody tries to really focus on that, you know, it's not going to happen and satellite will dominate. So that's a really good point. And you know, we're hearing a lot of buzz about Toronto, for example, they've got some amazing technology, and it's really going to be suited for a fairly high, still fairly high density deployments. It's not going to be extremely high density. Well, yeah, we could argue that I imagine it has to do with what plans you want to serve on that too, and how much what your competitors are. But it's still true that there's a place for wisps. We got, you know, I moved to the city back in 2018, moved to Anchorage here after having lived in the, you know, fairly rural area for 20 years. And all there was was there was a capped cable provider, very expensive, I think to to get an truly unlimited connection was like $180 a month, right? And, and, and I was like, I'm not going to pay that. And the, the, there really, there, there was a, you know, one local wisp, but they didn't have coverage in this area, you know. So the fact that, you know, you really can with a, in a rural area where a a wisp is really taking initiative or sometimes multiple wisps, you can, you can really live, live life in a way that still allows you to participate in modern society. And we're seeing this, this, you know, not just the move out of California and into Texas and into other states, but we're also seeing, you know, continued push, look at just look at the real estate markets, right? Where people are, they say, no, I want to be able to work from home and I want that home to be where I want it to be, right? Right? It's a continual at that frontier still expanding, right? And it's going to expand for America's got a lot of space, right? It's still going to continue to expand. So I'm, I'm very bullish about this, this industry. It's, it's been a really great ride for a number of years. I didn't necessarily consider myself a wisp, even though I was using wireless technologies. I didn't look like the traditional wisp. And, you know, then eventually I started to actually go into wisp of shows and realizing, oh, you know, actually I do have some ways that I can give back to the community and things that I can learn from the community. And it's, it's really a, it's really a great, great industry to be part of. And I'm glad that I'm kind of able to still, you know, it was, it was like the choice when I, when I moved to prasim is like I could stay at one, you know, fairly large internet provider, you know, large by wisp standards and, you know, keep doing some good here. Or I can go work for a company where I can help hundreds of wisp and, you know, hundreds of thousands of, you know, of people. And it's, it's really been a great move, I think. Yeah, it's funny. There's so many, so many times we've gone through the, the wisp industry is doomed, you know, we've had this conversation sort of multiple times and whether it's five or whether a Starlank or LTE overrun or whatever it may be. And then just the wisp industry continues to adapt. And there's never been a greater tool set available out there than, you know, this even, especially with like what you guys are doing now. I mean, you know, this was not an option 10 years ago to get to that sort of granular level. So not to make this a big commercial spot, but really like for those out there that are not familiar with prasim and like the, the sort of elevator pitch about what you do and how you do it. You know, we've mentioned bits and pieces, but if you kind of give folks a general summary of what your main goal and missions are there and how you go about it, I think it would really help a lot to shed some more light on about what, you know, you guys are doing a company, but what the industry as a whole is kind of moving towards as well. Absolutely. Yeah. I'd be happy to do that. We, we are seeing some movement in the industry to our understanding the quality of experiences. I mean, I think, I think that we've been at the forefront of that, certainly in the fixed wireless space, but we're also seeing it in other, other spaces, you know, even the large carrier space where we've got operate, I'm sorry, vendors talking to us about this, you know, this understanding that experience is king and you need to have a way to quantify it. So we essentially have a three, kind of three, three legs of the stool, if you will, at pre-same, where we want, first one, to help you understand, you know, what quality of experience is and then how is it actually, you know, how is the customer experience for each of your customers, right? And ideally help you optimize that. So we want you to understand it, we want you to be able to make it better, right? So the three legs are first the, we want, we measure latency and loss. That's, that's, you know, let's quantify this. Let's, let's understand the things that affect the customer experience the most, right? Then the second one is optimize it, where we have active queue management, which manages the latency that the customer's experiencing, which as we've proven is the biggest key factor in making sure that you do have a good experience. Curiously, if you optimize for latency, it also increases your bandwidth. So you don't have to just say, let's turn up all the knobs on the bandwidth. Oh, actually, if you optimize for latency, it does improve bandwidth. And then the third part is a deep understanding of the access layer. So right now, what we've been showing is understanding the RF access layer, because that's the market that we started in first. Now there's nothing specific about these techniques that I've been describing that is Wisp only. It's just, you know, we've had the problem of trying to understand dynamic capacity, even just throughout the day capacity can change because of the environment for dealing with microwave or dealing with a shared medium. So the problem is like most acute in wireless, but it's not specific to wireless. And we see that as our customers hybridize, that's a growing market as well, where there's a growing demand for the things that we do, not just for fixed wireless, but for other technologies. So look for that coming as well. So deep understanding of the access layer, how is it performing, optimizing for latency, and then measuring the latency. Those are the three things that we do. And there isn't really anybody who competes with us directly in that space. We do have some people that are considered to be our competitors. But we're really kind of setting this umbrella. What does quality of experience mean? And what can you do about it? Our focus for market right now is on local and regional providers, which is what Wisp send to me. We talked about some of these national providers. You know, I know they don't really yet come to the ship. They're not Wisp members, right? They do their own thing. They're kind of running different gear in some cases. And we're not focusing on them. You know, obviously that would be a large market, but that our founders really wanted to focus on the local and regional providers because they like the way that those companies do business. And, you know, you've probably met that met our management team. It's been a strategy that's worked out really well for us. And we really, you know, we like it. We like it here in the Wisp space. And Wisp's are growing too. I think we'll still have that focus on being local and regional and, you know, being real members of our community. The community is that we live in and we work in. You know, very often that's the case. You know, even with Wisp's with tens of thousands of members, that's still a totally different story from an ISP with millions of customers that is this faceless and glomerate. So, yeah, that's what we've been doing. Very cool. And then the other really cool stuff that we see from you guys or you do the annual fixed wireless report, you know, we all spend quite a bit of time digging through that. Some of you guys give the community for free ton of really useful information. And it's, I'm not going to say shocking, but there's definitely some things in there that are surprising. You're like, really? Okay. So if you can kind of give back to like, what's your mission, you know, providing that you have the data, obviously, and it's very rare that a company that has data wants to give it away, right? Because, you know, it's my data, oh, we're going to do, we're going to monetize this, you know, and hide it into the bridge. Yeah, some of that data we do use, you know, some of the RF analysis features that we're talking about, that is an additional paid tier on the base product that we've launched. And, you know, so, yeah, we can't give it all away for free, but there's still a lot to come. There's still more to come. You know, the stuff that we were showing at Canwisp a couple of weeks ago is stuff that hasn't made it into the report yet. I'll give you another example of this would be like, what's the plan distribution across, you know, for speeds? We talk about this, I've got to have this pressure to have a 100 meg plan or the pressure to have a 150 meg plan. And the, you know, I want to say you're really dealing with, you know, there is about a third of risks right now are not offering 50 meg plans. So that's, you know, think of those as the maybe the emerging risks for the, you know, the ones where they, maybe the market isn't demanding it yet. And then about a third are offering 50 meg plans. And that's up to about 10% of their user base. So when you think of right now, it's still not the most popular plan. 50 meg plans are not. And then there's about another third that have, you know, a very high percentage of 50 meg plans, right? So they're in a market where they're dealing with maybe at least half their user base is on a 50 meg plan or better. And the interesting thing about that is that in general wisps that are serving 50 meg plans are actually delivering it. The reason that we were focusing on 50 for this particular analysis, because that's what the Canadians are dealing with from a funding perspective, but we could run this analysis. Same thing on that 120 plan that we talked about at the FCC, you know, obviously not a lot of wisps offering that today, but, but, but a few are. And what's interesting about the, those higher speed plans is it is absolutely about channel size and how many customers you're putting on it. It's not about can the gear do it, right? It's does the operator engineer it correctly and do it right. We could, like we've even seen some successful delivery of 50 meg plans on a 10 megahertz channel, but that's like to one or two users, right? Can be done. So your chances of delivering a 50 meg plan go up dramatically is your channel with a channel with rises. But we've seen, we've seen quite a bit of success there. And what we've defined by success is delivering a plan that actually feels fast. So it's not about whether you could hit it on the speed test. It's does, is the customer experience positive. And because we, we've seen this again and again, if you make that experience good, the customer has no reason to reach for a speed test. Absolutely. We have a, I know a customer a wisp in Arizona who doesn't sell speed plans, right? I mean, his whole marketing is, you know, basically you tell us kind of, you know, what kind of use you need or something like that, you know, and then you pay based on that need, but there's no guaranteed speed. All they guarantee is that you'll be able to stream three things, work from home, do online thing and whatever, or I want to game or whatever. So you'll pay more and basically has it, you know, fairly open, somewhat managed and stuff like that. But I mean, he, he's, he can't keep up with the amount of subscribers that are coming to him and that they want this service. And he also, I believe he's doing like no annual contracts either. It's just like, come on board and, and the people come and they stay, you know, because he's charging a decent price for it, you know, so it's not outrageous. And, and, you know, he's doing the job of kind of teaching his customer base that it's not about speeds. Trust me, you'll, you know, you use way less and just sign up with our service. And basically, again, they pay based on how much they say they want to use, so to speak. It's uncapped, unlimited, all that stuff. And, you know, when it's not being used, you know, they could, they can get 100, 200 mega or whatever it is, because they're the only ones really utilizing it at that time. But, you know, he guarantees that you'll be able to again, stream this many things at the same time, you know, play your game and do this, you know, at this particular, you know, price point. So yeah, I mean, that kind of works. That's a really good way to, to do it. If you can, if you can educate your customer base, absolutely. We, I was moderating a discussion at Wisp America last month in New Orleans, and we were talking about managing oversubscription, because this is, that's kind of the hard problem that you're dealing with. The issue is not what's the peak speed, but it's like how oversubscribed is this? And one of the operators said, you know, I, I was, I was saying, you know, you all of you are, are selling an implicit oversubscription ratio to your customers by how much you load up your sectors, right? And one of the operators said, no, I make that oversubscription ratio explicit. And I engineered it that. And that's actually very healthy sounds like that's what your friend is doing, right? That's a very healthy way to do it to say, okay, no, here's, here's what you should expect rather than promise them the moon right now. And then as they load it up, people start getting less and less, you know, that's that way, you know, you're not managing customer expectations correctly. And eventually they're going to be unhappy. And my feeling is, and this is part of, you know, we think of this behind every new feature that we're dealing with that pre seam is, does it put you further ahead in that ballgame of being, you know, or less, you know, hockey, the skating to where the puck is, right? Like, we, we want, we want you to be ahead of it, because by the time the customer actually has a complaint, you've, you've lost their heart, right? You've lost their soul. Yeah. And then, you know, it's all about efficiency, too. Like we mentioned about it's, it's about putting the right subscribers on there. So a wisp should have a minimum signal level, you know, and if it goes above that, they don't bring on that customer, they should have a maximum user count per radio, right? And not go above that. And a lot of them are just like, well, he's got signal, he's in here. So now, you know, they load it up. And now everybody suffers while he's like, Oh, shit, what do I do now? Now he's got to re-engineered. He's got to put up more antennas, more radios, switch these people over. And if he was just, if he planned it right, he would have said, Hey, there's, you know, nothing available right now to a new customer because you want to keep everybody you have happy. And it says, you know, in about a month, we'll be able to bring you on. And he knows he has to go up there. He's got to split that sector or whatever he's got to do, right? To add more capacity and then bring on happy customers and keep them as happy customers. Because, you know, again, a lot of wisps, they make that mistake. They're like, well, he gets signal at 10 miles away. You know, it's only a 20 meg, it's only a 20 meg plan. And I have a 4x connection, you know, so it's going to deliver it. But that 4x connection just ruins it for everybody else that's on there. Exactly. And that's why we brought up the new scores. Because now you can see empirically, here's how much they're ruining it. I do want to say, well, the, you know, we don't actually even give you a ranking on the basis of your signal level in precinct. We do it entirely based on modulation. Because, you know, there's a lot to go into that. So yes, it's good to have a minimum, that you know, that's a great first step. I would go one step further and say, not just a minimum signal level, but a minimum modulation. This is what you've got to be getting because you have to preserve that airtime. That's your most precious resource. And we've talked about this before, like your installers have the biggest control, they have this ability to ruin your business if you're not careful. If you're pressuring them to make the install, incentivizing them to keep the value in the network, then sometimes there will be customers that you say, no, I, you know, it's a failure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way to, that was a great way to clarify that point. And you're absolutely right. Because I've had people and we're saying, well, you know, I got a neg 40 connection, you know, and spec sheet says, you know, that I should have, you know, 8x or 10x, whatever it is, and I'm not getting it, you know, but it's less than 60. So they sign it up. And it's a very good clarification point that you made there. Yes, modulation rate is definitely more important than signal strength. Yeah. So we don't even measure it. You know, we don't even, we report it, like we'll show you the graphs before it, but we don't even pay attention to it. It's just not necessary for the types of analysis that we're doing where you just need to say, how does it actually run? Like that's what we need to know. Like, does it chuch? As I say, like, is it happy? And then, and is it stable too? Because you're looking, we're looking at over a fairly long period of time, you know, you don't take action on the basis of one little dip, you know, every day there's this thermal curve that's going on, right? So it does require some number crunching to make that happen. But that's, that's, that's why we are a big cloud product, because there's a lot of number crunching that goes on, and not just to produce those reports, but every day. Yeah, we're building that statistical profile of that real world data that's coming in, because we collect trillions of records a day. And it's, it's a fun, I love the big data side. You know, I started my first, my first, I was thinking back to like my first, like, quote, programming job. Or, you know, the first thing I did that was commercial, and I was 12, and I built an inventory database at 12. And I didn't know that, you know, just I was playing around with databases, I had other data, data jobs in my teens. And then, of course, I did some e-commerce. You know, I think I was 19 or 20, and was doing that, you know, that everybody was getting an e-commerce back then, right? Yeah, let's build a website and sell some stuff. And that all that data, database experience would come in handy later on when like all these threads converged, you know, the, the Wisp experience and the, you know, the, the expertise at Pre-Seam. And it's, it's been a lot of fun to, to build some stuff that's, that's changing people's lives in a real positive way. And, and of course, we've got, the team has grown at Pre-Seam considerably as well to enable us to do that. So yeah, there's a lot, a lot more development time that's gone into the, the recent stuff than, than went into the original product. That's just really fun. Now we're starting to see some other players within the industry also moving to the sort of QoE space, which could be a little spicy. We'll see how that goes. There's, there's some differentiators. Yeah, absolutely. There's, there's people doing TCP acceleration. That's not something we will ever do. We think that actually makes the problem worse of preserving airtime. Like from an ROI perspective, that doesn't seem to make sense to us. And, you know, there's people doing deep packet inspection, for example, where they say, I, I want to know how much Netflix is going on on my network. Or maybe you're trying to make decisions about peering points and you want to know, you know, exactly what's going on from a CDN perspective. And that's not something we'll ever do at Pre-Seam in that way. You know, the founders came from Sandvine, which was the, all about deep packet inspection and shaping. And, you know, we're, you know, selling those services to, you know, Comcast and to the, you know, the biggest providers in the space. And, and they don't want to repeat of that. It's a, it's a losing battle because the, the, the, the, the content manufacturers, if you will, the, the, the services on the internet are continually coming up with more ways to distribute and to encrypt. And eventually it's all encrypted and all distributed. And you really can't differentiate it very, very intelligently without a great deal of effort. So we don't do those things. And if, if there's an operator who needs that for some reason, you know, I've heard maybe one cogently argue that they actually needed to have a deep packet inspection in order to be able to limit, say they wanted to cap all their Netflix rates at four mags. In general, most operators we see don't need that. They don't, they just, they don't, they are not differentiating what their customers are doing. They're staying very net neutral. But let's say that you have a commercial customer and the commercial customer needs you to do a particular type of shaping. And you, even if it's residential, you could do that. Then there's, there's a space for that, but we don't see the majority of people needing anything like that. Gotcha. Gotcha. Well, I mean, we could probably sit here and talk all day, you know, any, any sort of number of topics and tangents and stuff like that. But are there any sort of other hot points you want to make, any topics you want to kind of go over or anything specific about proceeding or you or anything like that you'd like to expand upon as you have this venue here? Awesome. Just, you know, it's, it's been great to see the Wisp community, you know, develop an online presence. Basically, I only have a Facebook account, so I can be on Wisp Talk, the Facebook group. I don't really use it for much else. I don't post a ton, but I'll, I'll, I'll chime in on occasion there. And it's really great to connect with our friends. Definitely if you do get to the Wisp shows like Wisp of Beluza or Wisp of America, you know, come and say hi, introduce yourself. I can be found. I'm Jeremy at preseem.com. If you want to send me an email, and of course, please check out our website. You know, we've got full information there about, you know, pricing and what the features and benefits are, and you can definitely reach out to us if any of this strikes your, strikes your fancy and takes your interest. Amazing. Amazing stuff. Man, my, I'm still, mine is still blown when you said that you're collecting like a trillion records a day or something like that. It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing what you guys are doing and just the amount of data that you have to crunch and do. And like I said, I hear nothing but good things, you know, what you guys are doing for the industry and it, and it's, and I'm happy that you guys are around to do this stuff because you're really, you know, helping with figure out what, what they're doing wrong, what they could do better and, and help them become more efficient again because, yeah, you know, efficiency is a big, big part of this, especially in the wireless world. I mean, you know, things are somewhat almost, you know, limitless when it comes to, you know, wired or optical, you know, type connections because airtime is not as, not a thing, you know. So, so you guys are doing a good thing and I'm happy for that. And I'm glad that you're part of this industry, part of WISPA and all those things that are helping grow this industry for sure. Oh yeah. Thank you for mentioning that as well. I do want to give one more plug, which is that I chair the education committee at WISPA, which is as much about educating our internal members about, you know, new, new technology that's coming down the pike. A lot of the regulatory stuff goes through, through, you know, through WISPA where they produce webinars with their members, but also to get the word out. We talked about how this is a customer education problem for the world at large to understand, hey, WISPs really are a viable option. It's a volunteer committee if anybody wants to kind of help us with our mission, which is, you know, help people understand the good that WISPA is doing. I would. I do. I do. Okay. I'll get you hooked up. But yeah, just drop me an email and we meet for once a month for an, for usually half an hour or maybe an hour. It's usually pretty short. And we help advise WISPA. We help produce webinars. We do whatever we, we care about. One of the, one of the things that we're going to help support, I should say, is women of WISPA initiative, which is to help educate women to understand, hey, there are women operators. There are women technologists. There are women engineers who maybe were less visible at WISPA before. That's a real exciting. We had our first meeting in WISPA America of that group. So that's kind of one of the little, the offshoots of the education committee that we're going to help support them in any way that we can. So I'll be just anybody who's, who's interested in letting the world know what a great job WISPs are doing, as well as letting WISPs know, here's the, we don't have to, we're not dealing with like the commercial side of like what WISPA is doing for you so much. We've got a great staff at WISPA who are good at that. This is more like about what's happening in the community and what's happening in the technology space as well. Much stuff like this, your podcast, for example, very educational tasks. I look back at some of those episodes. Hopefully people got some value out of this one, too. I'm sure they will. I'm sure they will. For sure, for sure. So all right, well, I think it's time to wrap this one up. Toss says, where can people find us? They're looking for us. Yeah, you could find us anywhere on social media, Facebook, Instagram is two great places to find us on WISP talk, WISP pics, all the WISP related Facebook groups online. Of course, you can find a lot of information about us at our website, rfelements.com, great resource out there. We put a lot of time and energy into putting all the information to the most commonly asked questions. You could pretty much find that stuff on our website. And of course, the educational side of things are a YouTube channel. Also, if you go to youtube.com slash rfelements, you'll find all of our podcasts that we're recording here, our Inside Wireless video series, which is a great informational series, not just to help you gain a little bit more knowledge about the complex things, about how RF works and all those things, but also maybe help educate your newer guys, your installers and stuff. We break it down, all the individual topics about wireless into kind of layman's terms and easy ways to understand how this stuff works. So it helps you do your job better. And then of course, you can find us at our forum, rfelab.com, or just email us, tasos at rfelements.com, Caleb at rfelements.com. All right. Well, Jeremy, again, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. This has been great. I think a lot of people will find a lot of value from this. So Caleb and Tasos, we're out. So until next time, everyone, y'all be good and a blast. Bye. Y'all be good. Bye.