 Today is Wednesday, July the 1st, 2020, and Mike, please tell us a little bit about your early life and your family. My early life, well with my parents, it was just an ordinary childhood, except these things that my father and mother divorced when I was three years old. So I started living with my mother and with his sister, her aunt, with his husband. And it was quite ordinary, I think, and I think as much as I remember, there was something special or something extraordinary, till I get some denature, then I started to feel something about men and men's body, but before this, I think I was just ordinary boy. From what town in Estonia are you from? It is our second biologist in Estonia called Tartu. It's a university town, it's approximate, a little bit less than 100,000 inhabitants. And it's, how to say, it's the biggest centre in south part of Estonia, so it's a local centre. Ah, okay. How far is it from Tallinn, which I guess would be a little bit less than 200 kilometres, so it's, I don't know, how it's in miles? Kilometres, we know, yeah. Okay. Well, you said when you were becoming a teenager, you began to realise an attraction for men. So please, tell us more about that, about your coming out. My coming out was quite lately, and somehow I can say that I am not coming out totally. So my, my orientations know my friends, people who are close to me, but I didn't announce it somewhere publicly. Yes, I visited and I am visiting gay bars and such events, but it just, just as it is, I didn't make it such big event. And also my parents died before I had my coming out, so they didn't know it, and that's a situation. Why are you not completely out? Because our society is, how to say, more or less on this situation, which may be the best way to describe the sentence that, don't ask, don't tell. You know, it's quite, it was quite common in the United States Army, and something like that we have in our community, and of course, it depends on your age, because our young people are, how to say, more open, and the other point is that it a little bit depends on your position too, that if there are well-known people in Estonia who are gay, but they never pronounce it, everybody knows it, but it's this way that nobody talks openly in a society. And if you are more independent, and if you are an example and a prayer, and giving your job yourself, then it's more easily, if you are working for somebody, then it's not, it's, it's, it's depend, how is the reaction, and sometimes it will create too much, too much problems for you, if you show your sexuality openly. For example, what problems? What kind of problems? The most thing is public opinion that you are different, you are not, how to say, you are not normal member of the society. And, and, of course, maybe my opinion is more influenced by my, my, such a life that was during, during Soviet time, and of course, people who lived on this time have such, how to say, more barriers inside your mind than the people who never practice so living in Soviet regime. I think, I think it's, it's, it's a one point that when I see in public places gay people, I, I see that people my age and all that say are, how to say, not so open or more discreet than people who are born and living during independence time in Estonia. Let's visit that topic a little more. You said under the Soviet times, the communist times, how was gay life then? Gays existed even in Soviet time, even so Soviet propaganda told that there is only few gay people and they are weird and, and, and normal and so on. There wasn't officially gay place, gay bars and, and clubs in Soviet time. But even in Estonia, in Tallinn, there was one, one bar, what was known as a place where gay people have meeting. So, so, and, and of course, there was in bigger cities in, in, in Tallinn, and in Tallinn, there was such cruising areas which where you could meet gay, gay guys also. But, but officially, of course, there was nothing and all communication was very discreet and underground. And, and therefore, therefore, there wasn't a very, how to say, intense gay life this time. How was the social feeling about it? How did people feel about it? It's difficult to say, I think it depends on the person. Of course, it put quite big pressure, but, and, and also you need to know that during the Soviet time, homosexuality was in the penal code and you could be put in the prison till one year for this. So, I, I, I actually don't know anybody who, who could get into the prison in, in, in my lifetime. But, but it was such potential danger that you are somehow criminal by penal code. And it had, had influence of the people opinion and, and, and of course it's, it's different because I think as everywhere where was a bigger, bigger places, bigger cities that people were more tolerant. And if, if you don't push your cock in front of other person, then, then it's nobody cares what, what you are doing. And, and of course, people privately talked to such topics that what this guy will have meetings with other guys and men and so on. But it was just, just, just as a small talk as everyone and, and, and even I know in some smaller places in villages where guys live together, people told that, yes, we know they are homosexual, but they are nice person, we know him. And that is nothing strange or, so, how to say, something like that, that we can't communicate with his people and, and so on. So it, it depends a lot of about yourself, who was your neighbors, who was your friends. And if, if, if you were, were such kind person, then these people who knew you, they say don't, didn't care too much about this. And of course, I understood that a lot of parents wasn't too much happy when they knew that their son or daughter is homosexual and therefore they couldn't have grandchildren. It, it's, it's, it's, I think it's normal attitude and it, it took time to, to you, to recognize this situation and accept it. So I think it, it, it, it was, it, it was different in different places, but generally people could, could live and, and, and for a closer ring of say friends, there wasn't too much problems. About this topic. Okay. How did you learn about homosexuality and kink, for example? About homosexuality I read from the books. And we, we had, even in Soviet times, some books were, were explaining what is homosexuality, what it means and, and such how to say, popular, scientific way was description. And of course, that was mentioned that it is abnormal and, and it may create this person, a lot of problems and so on. But this kind of literature, it was accessible and, and so I, I learned it. And the beginning of 90s when, when the regime was changed, then of course we could have material from abroad. And then I could get some magazines from, from abroad and read and look the pictures and so I learned about homosexuality and also about kink. How old were you when you came out? I think quite old. I, I was over 25. Okay. You mentioned you learned about kink a little bit. What kink did you learn? No, it's, it's, it's, it's depends what, what kind of magazines I got it and then, then, then I looked and of course it all was very interesting and such fascinating. So, I, I looked and I dream something like that, nothing special, but just generally so. So, so it, it, it, it, it continued till 1997 when I saw in, in the internet, in one American website called Leathernavigator. One email address, which was Estonian. And then I pick it up and I sent an email to this guy. And we started to chat and we chatted and changed emails quite long time. I think it was half year even more. And, and after that he told me that there is a small group of guys in Estonia who are into Leather and all such kind of stuff. And if I am interested, then I could participate in some of their event and to look how I like and how it suits for me. So, so, so, so it, so it, it began that there was in one summer day I met with these guys and there was such kind of weekend summit camp in the countryside. So, I participated there was, I think, around 10 guys or something like that. And I like it and then after that I united with this group and till today, I am with with them. What kinks or fetishes were a new and interesting fetish or kink for you, something you did not know before? Oh, I didn't know anything. So, all was new for me. Example, water sport, feasting, SM, bondage, what else, some nipple play, wax play, all this kind of stuff. It was all new for me. What did you like best? No, this time, when I started, then I tried everything what I could, but because there wasn't and even nowadays I can say that there is not too much persons who has good practice and experience in such special kink side, but nowadays I mostly busy with feasting. Okay, top or bottom? Both. Okay. Yes, I started as a bottom and I was lucky because some guys from London visited Estonia in the millennium and because I know one of them, I asked that, is there anybody who are into feasting? And since my friend told me, yes, there is one guy and I will give you an email and you can arrange meeting and look if something would happen. And we had correspondence and if these guys arrived to Tallinn, we met and I got my first session and I was surprised but satisfied and therefore it started to go on. And as I don't, firstly I was bottom, but soon I thought that it could be interesting to be active part two and so I am still today's versatile in this field. Okay. How is the current gay and kinky scene in Estonia? It is not developed too much even since last 25 years because I think one reason is the Soviet time and the other point is that we have only 1.3 million inhabitants in Estonia and therefore it's too few to organise something very big and such permanent. And example, if I look at this gay portals in internet, example Planet Roma or Recon, in Recon there is only around 80 persons who registered all over Estonia and it's not too much. And I talked with some of them about fetish life and kink and so on and a lot of them telling to me that they are not interested to participate on local events because there is so few persons, some of them they know already and so they prefer to visit time to time big centres like Berlin, Stockholm, Copenhagen where are much larger choice, more people, more different guys and therefore our local scene is not very developed. And our own club which organises time to time these events also, we try to organise such events once or let's say four times per year that over three months there is one event and on this event okay there is maybe 15-20 persons who are coming, so it is not so developed. So the different things is such, how to say, vanilla events, some kind of dancing and disco nights, there are quite a lot of people, let's say so some hundreds and it's more common and people come to dance and to socialise such kind of places and maybe after the end of this party they will go together to some place and doing something more. But yes in such fetish and leather scene it's more oriented to the events of the bigger cities and especially because as a flight ticket to Berlin it's not very expensive for weekends so people prefer to have such kind of scenes to visit and not too much to look around in local places. Of course there are advertising for local guys too but how to say, my experience is that if you will talk with 10 persons then maybe one contact of this 10 will work or something can happen or go to something, mostly guys are just, how to say, chatting, they are talking, yes we are interested and so on and so on but if you are going to more details then sometimes they disappear and telling that oh I have no time, I am busy and so on. So we can say that the fetish scene is very little and therefore I think it will take a generation or even two before people maybe are more oriented to the local community too and of course one problem is that nowadays lifestyle is so that people like to consume, to have something but they don't like to have too much duties and therefore such voluntary work especially in gay life is not very common and of course the situation went better with these years but there is a long way to develop about this. How about the other Baltic countries, how do the other countries see this topic? It's different, there is not such organisations like our club in Estonia, in Lithuania and in Latvia, of course Riga the capital of Latvia is a big centre, it's a city with almost a million inhabitants they have some gay clubs there and if I look with websites there are guys who are registered in there too but of course in Lithuania especially this Catholic church as being influenced to society and therefore this gay life is not developed so much. Even Zervos organised a so called Baltic Pride which is a Pride which they organised so that one year is a Pride in Estonia, the other one in Latvia and the third one in Lithuania and it was in Latvia in Lithuania also and even in 2015 there was so called Euro Pride in Riga and I participated on it and it was a nice event and there was a lot of people and of course a lot of guys was from abroad, I think maybe two-thirds was from abroad and one-third was a local guy but anyway, it was a nice event, but a lot of local people who was on streets say, look these gay people like in zoo, it's something strange, something different, something funny but and this attitude I think also can change very slowly and therefore for fetish guys, I talked on the internet, they are telling that they are also mostly visiting bigger cities and abroad for Berlin and also these Scandinavian cities, Copenhagen, Stockholm, who they can take part of these fetish events and to live out their kink interests. Do you also do that? I do but not very often, mostly I visit abroad if this European Confederation of Motorcycling Clubs organising say annual meeting and Mr. Leza Europe Contest then I try to take part of these events and therefore I am not very often in abroad, let's say maybe couple of times per year but I know there are guys who are visiting once a month and so on, of course this year was different because this Corona was closed and so on but now it's starting open again also and inside Europe now there is no problem to travel so I think in July in August guys who are interested can visit and as much as I know this bars and clubs in Europe, in Berlin and in other places they open again and if there is not happening something extraordinary, people talking a lot about the second wave of Corona in Europe in autumn so if there is no some special extraordinary circumstances then I think this will be again the same as it was before So you are able to find enough activity there at home for your kink? Yes, I have a partner so I have no problem with this and therefore we are visiting time to time some events but we can manage without it nicely too How long have you been together? We have been together for 7 years Lovely, lovely So are you able as a couple to go out to, I don't know, a meeting to a bar in your leather? Excuse me Yes, it's not big problem and I think leather is quite common in everyday on streets So even 20 years ago when our club organized such Nordic clubs meeting in Tallinn some guys from Sweden asked that if they will come to Tallinn can say walk on streets in Leather and we told that you can, nobody will not attack you and so on It's quite normal that people are in Leather and sometimes of course some people ask that where is your motorcycle and such kind of stuff but principally there is no problem with this You mentioned the Leather clubs there, tell us about the Leatherman club of Estonia, how did this begin? It began in 1992, just after Estonia got independence again and there was one guy who was still a member of our club who was an organiser and he started to organize such small group of guys, they mostly met in private apartments and sometimes in countryside in some way in nature and so it developed till at the end of 90s this European confederation of motorcycle club ECMC asked that if this club is interested to unite with this network and then our club was taken member of ECMC and also we had and have contact with other fetish club in Scandinavia, Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark and we changed information and also time to time our members visiting these other club events and if the members of these clubs visiting Estonia and we have some kind of events and they are taking part of our events too, so therefore slowly develop our club is not very large, we still have today 19 members and members are all over Estonia, so therefore we need to plan our events because we are not very close together and therefore we can't organize events so easily we need a little bit to know forward and people could have planned their time and so on Tell us about being the president Actually our club had two presidents, the first one was a guy who I talked his name is Igor and he was a founder and he managed this club till 2004 so it was 12 years and but then he told that he had teach this so long time and he need some rest and and so then he suggested to club members to elect me to this post and I fulfilled this post till today but yes I understood that if I will find a guy who could develop our club in future then I would very happy to give this position to somebody else because every post if to fulfill it quite long time you will be tired and there will be some kind of situation and so on therefore I hope that one day I can find and grow up new president who will take care of our club Do you do a contest? Leather contest? No we didn't because we didn't have so many guys who would like to participate and even we never did this kind of contest and the closest club for us is our friends from Finland MSC Finland Tom's Club and even they have more members I think they have over 100 members they couldn't organize every year this contest because they have only one or two guys and then they think that it's not enough interesting to have such contest with two guys at all so it is problem and therefore we don't have and in 2012 when I was in Chicago at EML then I saw of course how large can be such kind of contest it was Danielle Dumont who this time support me that I could participate in the jury of the EML and it is of course totally other level and it is totally in such on the commercial basis even in Europe where we have Mr Leather Europe contest there are some years when there are let's say some 8-12 contestants but I remember some years where there was only 4-6 participants so even in Europe where we have quite large fetish scene it's not so easy to find these guys who are interested to participate and to take part of this even there are countries where they organizing this fetish contest quite well like in France in UK in some German gloves and nowadays in Spain too but anyway it's depend of this guys about say personality about say desires about say fantasies so there was elected quite how to say good guys who did very much about fetish community and say participate on prides and gave interviews in magazines but at the same time there was some other guys who was elected and we didn't hear too much about them later so it's such it's depend of this persons and he what desires what ideas what principles he had what he like to achieve so in Estonia yes we are keeping quite low profile but who knows one day maybe we can do it and then of course we like to send our representative to Europe and who knows maybe to IML too that would be wonderful I hope so what is the biggest misconception about you biggest misconceptions I think it is that how to say that the king interest and high moral values can be inside the one and the same person I think this is some people think that if you have such king interest then you couldn't have such some moral values and so on and I think they make big mistakes that actually it is not this way it can be in the same person next to each other fantastic well Mike asked I would like very much to thank you for a wonderful fireside chat here on zoom and I look forward to meeting you in person hopefully someday soon it would be pleasure and thank you for this interview and I hope that as we could meet here in the zoom virtual world we can meet in real world one day