 Hello and welcome to season two of the Coach Emanuel podcast hosted by me Danny Mills Today I'm joined by former Blackpool, Leeds United and most recently Sunderland manager Simon Grayson Simon enjoyed a career as a professional footballer playing for some of England's top clubs including Aston Villa, Blackburn Rovers But most recognized for his time spent at Leicester City as a player in the early 90s and then his manager of Leeds United from 2008 to 2012 So Simon, thanks for joining us Just start with you're probably best known for playing your Leicester City days Under Martin O'Neill. Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, Brian Little signed me before that I'd gone from playing regularly in Leeds Reserves ring around the first team till I got to 21 And then got the opportunity to to really start playing and making a living in the game really and it was brought my heart to leave Leeds But from from playing reserve team football ten ten twelve games later I'm playing in a playoff final at Wembley for the Premier League or the Premiership as it was then So it's all about a learning curve and getting your career on track And how different was Martin O'Neill to other managers that you'd play for? It was a lot different because I was used to Howard Wilkinson Who was very much a hands-on coach who who took every session that would Specific in what he was doing right attention to detail From set pieces and I think people don't realize Howard was quite ahead of the game in terms of his ideas New ideas that he was taking I work with Howard with yonder 21s in England. Yeah, and we used to hate it I think that detail, you know filming training sessions going into that being microphoned up on the training pitch Because it was so different to players, wasn't it? But looking back now and I say to people all the stuff that he went through Was so right. Yeah, everything that he did was you're right was way People talk about us and Venger being ahead of the time Well Howard was in front of him because it was obviously won the league title with Leeds in 92 And he was very methodical in everything he did he did and and players found it difficult to deal David batty Was given his own ball on a Friday morning because they're doing set pieces and bats had a tension span of about two seconds So Howard give him this ball and he'd just go around kick it around the the other half of the pitch where the rest of the Lads were doing set pieces, but his attention to detail was really really thorough Brian little was very much similar hands-on coach where Martin was more about his All school in terms of very much like Brian, Brian Clough. He had an aura about him You probably wouldn't see him on a Monday Tuesday Wednesday You would be off and then Thursday Friday would come out and do a little bit work He was very much let Steve Wolford do his coaching John Robertson do his coaching But when he came out the training increased because of this aura as I mentioned about him, but he knew When it was matched there how to get the best out of group of players And that is a massive part in a coach or a manager I work with Martin briefly gave him my debut actually when I was at Norwich and I was similar. I couldn't believe how Everything was purely about winning. Yeah style of play coaching Almost irrelevant at times. It was I just thought it was solely about winning and like he said if you won See you Thursday lads if you lost running on a Sunday. Well, it was it was one of them that sort of In modern-day coaches now talk about phases of play and how are you gonna get the ball from A to B from the back through the lines Under Martin or Neil it was go out get the work hard for the team stick together as a group Express yourselves and make it hard for the opposition and and he just Got the best out of a group of players as you mentioned. We would even before A league cup semi-final we went away to I think it was Bournemouth or might have been granted much with two days We never kicked the ball. Let's say we're going into a semi-final of league cup final and no preparation And that's how it was. Is this one of the biggest things about football and coaching these days that it's trying to reinvent itself Every six months every season. I mean Martin used to say to us Got no interest in what happens in between the two penalty areas Win it in our penalty area win it in their penalty area job done Well, I think the modern-day football now it's very scrutinised with social media people analysing Where people are running to where you're passing to but ultimately no modern-day coach Beelster at Leeds, Potecino and Guardiola They haven't reinvented the wheel of how football's been played for hundreds of years. It's basically Keep clean sheets and score at the other end and close down from the front. Exactly The Gagan presses we want to reinvent it this pressing from the front is even Russian Kenny Daglish We're doing it back in the 80s and all the other top strikers and it's yes He tweaked it and gone with the day and age of changing systems and philosophies But it's all about defending your own box work hard for the shirt and take your chances when they come along And ultimately I keep saying it get the best out of a group of players play to their strengths Obviously, probably you're getting the best out of you was probably that Wembley Performance, you know getting promoted. What was that like? What any memories of that in particular? When you when I looked at my Leicester career It was filled with sort of ups and downs in terms of Disappointment we had two playoff finals on the top which had to Keep coming back for the next preseason ready that this is going to be our year We get promoted again and fortunately I was Wembley first Leicester captain to win at Wembley against Derby Going to the Premier League and then we get relegated Following year we get promoted again via the playoffs and then we win the league cup the following year And it's learning from your experiences of disappointment that can stand you in good stead for the following season But for the rest of your career and I think as a player to win at Wembley and be fortunate to play there More than once is the highlight and the dream of any young kid growing up when you're Setting out on your road to trying to be a footballer so obviously after a Very very good playing career. Obviously you dropped into to management Let's say that the clubs that you've managed you've had some interesting owners chairman CEOs. Yeah, you've pretty much ticked all the boxes of Crazy sublime to the ridiculous, but obviously you started off at at Blackpool Was it always your intention to go straight into management? I was doing my badges at Blackpool while I was still playing I was taking the reserves and there was a lot of hard work and dedication From playing on at Bournemouth away on a Tuesday night getting back home at probably four o'clock in the morning To then getting ready to take the reserves at a 12 o'clock kickoff on the Wednesday So he and ultimately picking up kit into putting to your car to put in other stuff in your car Taking the washing the next morning after this is what people probably don't realize You know any even now to a certain extent those lower levels everyone looks at the Premier League And it probably the championship and think oh everything is done for everybody There's entirages and you know without shadow when you see Man City finish a game and the staff come on There's like 50 staff come on the pitch to celebrate but the lower league clubs It's not far off a one-man band. It isn't and you and that's it gives you good grounding as well That you you've got to make sure that you're preparing as well as you can and you don't want anything to be Any stone left unturned so my match there preparation for the reserves through Find out making sure that we had 11 shirts 11 pairs of shorts and socks and I'm not joking set of balls Do we get the balls back after a warm-up because can't just kick them away? We'd have no balls for them for the next week's games and this was black pool in the league one at the time So that set me up. Well, as I said, I was doing me be license on the road to my a license And I always thought that I would take a gradual step from reserve team coach to first team coach And that's how it was gonna pan out in terms of sport to Colin Henry about a Proposition that had been given to go as an assistant manager with a friend of mine. He said yes fine Went to Carl Oyston who said no, I'm not letting you go. So to our maze my amazement I said why he said well, I'm sacking Colin and you're taking orders first team manager and it was sort of Welcome to the world of owners. Well, yeah, I was preparing For eventually hopefully being a coach first team manager somewhere down the line But was thrust upon it of Wasn't expecting to be given that opportunity and the team was struggling near the bottom First remake was to make sure we stayed in league one and we did following season managed to get the team promoted and From then on within a few few days I suppose I felt comfortable in what I was doing because the biggest difference that I found from In my early days at blackpool was I was in addressing with players But I'd done the gradual process of taking some of them in the reserves But then becoming their mates to being the first team manager I had to take a little bit of a step back from them and and ultimately keep the Familiar with them, but also not let them think that they can take Things too far when when I needed them to be more disciplined or accept decisions of me dropping them or releasing them They said you did it incredibly well with blackpool got promotion Didn't incredibly well there 10 consecutive wins breaking a club record and then how did the offer of coming to Leeds come about which I suppose it must have been having Growing up there played their dream managerial job. Yeah, maybe maybe apart from the owner At the time. Well, as I said, I'd work with Carl Euston at blackpool, which was not easy at the time So it made you learn and develop very quickly Gary McCallus had been sacked on the Sunday morning and I got a call on the Sunday afternoon From Sean RV would I want to meet Ken Betts because there was like one approached me for the job So I went over and met them took about frying pan into the fire. Yeah, well, it was and ultimately Blackpool are taken into mid mid table in the championship and Leeds were a league one club But when your team that you support comes knocking and the size of the club Then you are going to drop down to to a division It wasn't playing sailing trying to get here because blackpool tried to stop me Trying to get an injunction against me coming but Ken Betts used his willpower and many other means to get me here and ultimately Came to work with a another owner who was charismatic and Opinionated and well-known in the game. Was it because I Ken I was I was around sort of Leeds still at that time I was like slightly after in between those sort of periods Then it's wise try to get me back at one stage and Ken was having none of it Talks, I think they were still paying me Back when Well, that was Ken's response. You can you can imagine what that was But I always said it came in and a very very difficult time He saved Leeds effectively and yes, there was lots of cost-cut and there was all sorts of measures that maybe the fans didn't like but I sort of always respected him as an owner because he He put his money where his mouth is maybe it wasn't his money, but he put his hand in his pocket said right I'm gonna And make unpopular decisions and that's what you had to do at that time Yeah, I think like you say the club had gone through administration. He came in and and Ultimately played a part in in the survival. Yes He made some decisions that weren't very popular with a lot of people within the club outside the club but he give it the platform to Stabilize and and try and get back to hopefully this year back to the Premier League And and yeah, he was helpful in everything that he did with myself And I'll never not thank him for giving myself myself the opportunity to to come and manage Leeds and we had some good times Obviously the three now yeah some good young players didn't yeah, you know the likes of Fabian Delph, you know came through Yeah, they work with Fab too much because he was I came in December and I think it was probably Six months later, maybe less than that that Fab went to and he went to Aston Villa But he was obviously a huge talent a member in his first game It's going from near the halfway line against Stockport and it was like wow this kid's got some talent and You inherited a squad of some how the likes of house and who come through the academy and And others and then use part your job is to change a mentality of a group and try and make them better with the Recruitments that in your recruitment process of plays you're trying to bring in Assume the best play you had at that period obviously was Jermaine Beckford No, it was just scoring goals for fun I mean how good was in it any a little bit disappointed didn't really kick on after he left Leeds It's difficult because people ask you who's the best play you've managed at Leeds and different types of players You got like your warriors in terms of Kiznobo and Richard Neal a run through a brick wall for you as a manager you love them You had like Johnny house and seven eight out of ten every week But Jermaine could do something out of nothing either side of him He had Matt's cradle and and snodgrass supply in it But Jermaine would just do something out of nothing that you'd go wow How has he done that and then they do the other side of it most infuriating thing where he misses a simple tapping or But he had confidence in his billy. He wasn't he wasn't Complacent or over the top with it all he was he was focused on what he needed to do and What did I want to keep him cause we wanted to keep it at the end of the season But we had a gentleman's agreement agreement with him new Castle came in for him in the January Before we beat Manchester United all that particular month was was that was that the best as a Leeds manager? Was that one of the best moments of your career going to old Trafford? Yeah, I would I always put down the by the way. I was I was there. I was there as a fan that day I was just amazing. I always put down the Bristol Rovers game as a most important one because We were judged over the 46 games of a promotion Leeds fans might disagree with the very close I'm not dismissing the man United one without a shadow of doubt when you're walking out at the end of the game And there's 9,000 fans in the corner and like I said, you're part of them You're feeling immensely proud that you've turned over not just a Manchester United They were Premly team they were the champions of the Premier League stage and there was a big gap wasn't there? Yeah, we were everything it wasn't it wasn't like when I played for Leeds and we went and we never won when I went there It wasn't that we were half expected to get a result. Yeah, no one gave Leeds a chance You know and I think that played into our hands a little bit that we went there with a carefree attitude And I remember the last things saying to the players that Somebody could walk out of this stadium today being a hero for the rest of their lives in the League United Fourclaw and obviously Jim M was the one and it wasn't as if it was a fluke because we felt that we deserved something To win over the course of the game and they were very strong They didn't have a weakened team out They had Burbot off and Michael Owen and and Gary Neville and Wes Brown and they had a strong team out But we we turned them over in the backyard and it's one of the proudest moments You had promotions playoff disappointments. It was a really sort of it was good times at Leeds But it was so many times where you just missed it. Can you put your finger any particular reason or why it didn't quite Get to where probably Leeds deserve to be at that point I think the first year back in the championship we went second at Christmas We beat QPR max scored twice and I felt we've got a squad here We've got a real strong team going forward We were as good as anybody with the likes of Luciano leading the line Johnny playing as a 10 and then the ad max and snodgrass. I think McCormack must have come in at that particular time people like Bradley Johnson were playing really well We were but you're always looking to improve Every window. I've always looked on it as a manager that each window I want to try and improve the squad and that January was a great opportunity to maybe just improve The defensive areas and I wanted a centre after probably just be that leader because I think Neil and Kiznobo We're injured and we were a little bit sort of as much of my philosophy is to try and win 3 2 4 2 whatever score and goals. I still wanted to try and keep Clean sheets to give us a better opportunity getting promotion And we just weren't backed with a couple of plays that we might have needed even just one centre back And I wasn't talking modern-day now have 3 5 million I could have got a couple of a player in who ended up playing in the Premier League for the four or five years later on For half a million pound and and we just got that close and you look at why it didn't happen. That's one of the reasons But also the expectancy level at Leeds is really hard for Individual collectively as a team to to see things through as well and get over the finish line Brilliant when things are going wrong crowd can get a little bit anxious But that's just comes with the territory of playing for Leeds United That's why so many players and do well, but also why some fail because they can't deal with it Mentally strong enough to deal with the expectancy levels. You're listening to the coaching manual podcast hosted by me Danny Mills After four years at Leeds, you went off and played played went off and managed Preston did very very well there Again working under some where he wasn't the owner was he Pete's advisor to the advisor to the owner Colorful, I think you've worked under and then of course Another job comes up the Sunderland job, which you know, I've heard you say before was just too big an opportunity to To turn down probably it was it similar to the Leeds pull, you know back back when you're a black pull In terms of I've been at Preston for four and a half years and we'd finished 11th the two years in the championship After getting promoted on a budget in the bottom three Is there a time during that? And this probably phrase gets a bit of a cliche. I've taken the team as far as they can go without a Whole load of investment in that Preston side Realistically, were you going to take them any further up the table? It was always going to be difficult Finishing 11th on a bottom three budget was overachieving in the in that first place But what I've done there is I've developed a real good squad got younger players from Premier League clubs bought for very little money made them better on the training pitch coaching them and developing And within that period of time had opportunities to go to bigger clubs But I didn't want even to come back to Leeds at one stage under Chilino, which Luckily, I made the right decision another colorful Exactly, I've worked with a few haven't I so my head my heads was Telling me not to my heart was saying to go back, but I decided I was wanting to stay at Preston at that time And it was it was a tough decision to make because I was going from a as much as a secure job that you can have at Preston Where I had big influence with Peter Ridsdale when who we signed everything that we did it was was fine, but When the opportunity for X Premier League club comes knocking it's too good opportunity I don't want to go never wanted to go through life with any regrets of what I've done and the last thing I would have wanted was Sunland to go back up with somebody else in charge when I felt that I was still the right man for the job It was a gamble because but going to Leeds from Blackpool was a gamble Which people told me not to do in the first place But I felt that with my ability confidence and me what I could do that Sunland I would be able to achieve it well to me It's not until you go in there that you find out a lot of underlying problems that you didn't realize Obviously a big part of Sunland and we've seen lately is obviously the Netflix documentary, which was I think prearranged before You'd gone in there and was all sorted out how difficult one how difficult was it to manage that situation and How much of a of a true perspective of what really went on I think Anytime you do a documentary you they're always going to edit it to however the what it suits them You look at the Manchester City one that's been out and that's very Organized and they've got the whatever they want to go out is through the major outlet that they use at Manchester Did you have any can were you given any control of what would or wouldn't go out? No Ultimately, I control of what we give them in terms of no access to the dressing rooms But it was as I said, it was already prearranged and it would happen I would try to be as helpful as I could do without wanting to be unendated with interviews all the time players felt at first very uncomfortable doing it that they got cameras watching training cameras are in the Medical room, but after a while, I think they got used to them, but it was I think in terms of the whole documentary it was one that Gives a true insight of what a football club was like you talk you compare Manchester City where it's a bit more glamourised about it Oh, this one was really what it's like to a middle-class working class. Should I say a club where? supporters Earned the money and spend it on their football club and that what the football club was going through at that particular time and Of course, it's I don't have a watched it and I've agreed with things I've not agreed with things how we how I'm seeing in the light of the manager frustrates me a little bit, but You have to deal with a cat Sadly that's almost the world that we live in in big brother celebrity this celebrity that you know people reality TV Yeah, you know snippets of people's lives famous for 15 minutes and then disappear where you've worked all your life For 14 years to work in a certain style and then actually you're portrayed as almost a reality TV star That must be quite difficult and also within them minutes at the your head It doesn't give the true reflection of what you are as a person in terms of I have a little bit of mourn up at the situations that I'm there with a flit chart people are Arex are thinking that it's a Motivational speech an hour or so before a first-team game. Well, it was done six hours before a pre-season game as a The license of editing and yeah, exactly it makes out that you're doing something an hour before a game where I've done PowerPoint presentations the Welsh pro license and I can do all that but the Documentary makes out that you only use a flip chart and that's something from the 80s and 90s Is that one of the hardest things to manage in modern-day football? You know that the players the world of social media the media and people's opinions and perspective. Yeah, definitely I look back and some of the stuff that we there's no way we'd ever have cameras anywhere near some of our dressing room The stuff that went on but now it is it almost you have to accept that's how much social media isn't it? There's a massive part now in in society and certainly in football as you mentioned there We when we played you get away with certain things plays can't do that Now you've got these tunnel clubs at football clubs where You know the fans were having a meal as you walk down the tunnel and it's a glass window And they can see everything that's going on the tunnel. I'm like that was sacred to me the tunnel Well, I did in the tunnel was like should never ever be seen some of the stuff that gone off in tunnels when I played And you probably played was with that you could be arrested for yeah, and that is no word of a lie that it's kicked off in tunnels and This day and age everybody can see it So of course it's part and parcel of society has said but there's certain aspects of it all and that you People have got more of a reality check about sort of not taking everything for as black and white Just talk about the documentary glint snodding who's my assistant manager for the last 10 years or so He's the one of the nicest funniest blokes you can make well I'm one of my other friends was doing is the Q&A is doing a Q&A for Exeter Who's assistant manager and somebody asked him a question saying? How would you do your recruitment? Would you follow what Sunlan do? So he said what's that he says? Would you read would you not sign a player for wearing gloves? And he says what what do you mean? He says well the what's glint snodding when I watch a player Skunthorpe in August and snods jokely said I can't sign image wearing gloves in August And this is how sort of your people can take something out of a situation and turn and actually think that This is like the normal mentality of thinking when you're not must make Managerial situations managing players even harder in this day and age I'm assuming now that the hardest, you know, you're a good coach You've proved that time and time again But managing players and the way that the world is changing must be the hardest part of football Well, I think I said it earlier on that you can have the greatest tactics in the world But if you don't get the best out your group of players of man management skills, then you're unhiding to nothing You know, I mean I've always tried to in create and create an environment at the training ground where Players enjoy coming into work. They'll get on with myself I've a laugh and a joke but they know that when we're working we're working and when I'm not happy They'll understand that but I want to be approachable. I want them to be my friend to a certain degree but also With respectful of every decision I make and one of the biggest things sort of I take pride in is that a lot of players who I work with Still speak to me for advice on a regular basis from blackpool from all my clubs even recently players are out of a team and Ringing me saying, what should I do? Do you think I should ask for a transfer? Should I do this? And that's sort of gives me a lot of pride not just with the promotions that I've done as a manager But the respect that I've got within the players that I've worked with that they can still pick up the form to me and ask for advice Even though I'm not the manager anymore Money is obviously changed football Even since I finished where it was good now It's obviously off the scale and that brings a whole new load of problems a couple of things on that Obviously when you went into Sunderland, I think you know, we've seen how difficult transfer deadline day can be Obviously, it's just past now for January How much did that affect you not get any signings in in that first window at Sunderland? You know, it must have been a huge party or plans thing document that you wanted a centre forward Didn't get one. You'd almost banked on that. Yeah Do you then feel like well actually now I've got to try and coach with one anti behind me back it was I think when you look at sort of That transfer dead like first month in at Sunderland the August month that you had players still there that didn't want to be there But work good enough to get moves on to other clubs. So you had to work with them You had players that you that you'd sold. I think we brought in 45 million pounds worth of sales and then replaced them We 12 new players at the cost of 1.2 million and that is the owner that's good business from an owner, but it's not from a Perspective of trying to bring in the quality to get a club like Sunderland back to the Premier League I knew there's going to be restraints of where I was going to be working with but I didn't expect to be bringing in 12 new players at a cost of Just over a million pound and free transfers to Lawns But you just try and get the best out of that group of players and is that one of the hardest Aspects of management these days where maybe you don't have as much control Over signings and budgets as maybe you used to do when you first started. I think that's just how football is Changing around a lot of clubs now. I've direct as a football Who do recruitment as well you have I'd like to think that If I would when I'm go back into work I'm happy to work with a director football But I would still want an influence on the people that I'm going to be signing Some clubs don't a manager coach doesn't have any influence on the signings that they're going to make I will a little bit more old-school, but you've got to adapt to to new skills and and how football is developing But it's a lot of it just goes down to Getting on with the people that you're working with but utilising the money that's available to you But it is so frustrating like we're talking on that deadline date Sunland knows trying to get McCormack in I was close to bringing snodgrass in and these are players That was close to getting but finances won't allow it to happen But the players wanted to come and play for me then Part of that may be financial restriction. You had players like Jack Rodwell that really just huge contracts huge money Has never really kicked on and and had any of the potential that we expected You know when he was a young kid, you know breaking through How difficult is it to manage players in that situation that basically You don't have to name it I'm just starting in in general players that almost down tools and just don't want to play and go You know what I don't need to play I've got enough money and probably money is their motivation Well, other than actually wanting to play that was one of the hardest things to try and Correct at Sunland was players at Preston were earning single figures Weekly wage and we'd be bursting a gut to go and run through a brick wall for you to get better to go and get another Thousand two thousand three pout thousand pound a week on the wages where going into Sunland players are on 20s to 30s 40s 50,000 pounds the setup for life. So they didn't have that real desire and hunger to to really When things were tough to really dig deep and and think well, I'm going to correct this the comfortable Where the lads at Preston were always driving to get I struggled it I struggled that in this day and age now. No, I had a good career and I made a good living out of it But for me, it was all about being the best I could be winning, you know Every single day training work as hard as possible to be good But now it seems and obviously I've got kids in the system It seems like a lot of these younger players their motivation is money. Yeah, and as As much as I really don't like that. In fact, I did test that fact You've almost got a role with it and I'm still sort of struggling with that notion of like well Actually, they're they're more concerned about earning money than they are about winning and improving there's so much money involved now to the point of The top four six clubs in the Premier League. They're young kids are earning Double figures a weekly wage and they've not even kicked of bought first team Do you motivate these players? It's very difficult It's got to a lot of most of it has got to come within the person themselves Before they know it they might be on set ten thousand pound a week for three years But if they haven't got the motivation the education determination, that's them out the game They can drop suddenly from Chelsea's under 23s out the game very quickly where the real good ones Will will work hard will go mecca living in the game and earn whatever money they can make But it's money plays a huge part. Everything is done for a mama big big fan of the academy system, but I'm also this Think that is a hindrance as well in terms of I think kids day and age now are given the best Opportunity the best coach in the best number of hours to be able to do things But also they have everything done for them as well that they don't learn responsibility They don't if something happens on a pitch that looks straight across to the coach We've growing up. We try we've pulled problem solve ourselves or with our teammates on on that particular pitch now they get the cutting probably get to training ground without like somebody dropping them off or Using the phone for an app or something like that. There's no responsibility within the young young modern-day footballer Well, you've had you've obviously experienced that at first hand as a manager as a coach But obviously your son came through the Blackburn system and obviously has now moved on and alone at Grimsby Have you had to try and influence him in any particular way? And have you been strong-handed? Have you taken a step back just let him get on with it? How have you? Must be because I'm in a similar situation. It's difficult not to want to almost overcoach them and over Yeah, preach to them at times, especially when you're a dad as well. Yeah, I've always tried to be There to give him advice if he wants it I'm certainly not over the top with him in certain full of praise if anything come a little bit more critical But I don't go too far where I'm gonna be I Think it's confidence levels. Is it hard to be Coach and parent at times because I find that difficult I do switch off quite easily to be fair Saying that when he made his debut for Blackburn early in the season I was a bag of nerves because I'm kicking every ball and We just want to do well though. Yeah, it costs you do. It doesn't matter what level it is You just want them to do it better than it could be. And if he was playing cricket or swimming or whatever you'd want him to do well Because it's part of the livelihood and growing up, but I think Because he's been in around me and I like to think I'm quite level-headed and he's seen he's been into blackpool and he's seen all sort of the Different types of training grounds for a better phrase that he hasn't he doesn't take anything for granted So when he's gone to Grimsbury the other week Blackburn he's got three training kits. He goes there. He's got one training kit There's no tracks at bottoms. There's no weight top and but it hasn't affected him too much because We've I've tried to keep him level-headed and he's been around enough to see that it isn't always like being at Man City Everton Blackburn in the championship where the facilities are a top top notch It's about what you do on them training pitches to make a living in the game and Kim being at Grimsbury now will be great for his development and hopefully for his long-term future How difficult was it for you sometimes on the sidelines? I get it. I get frustrated my lad all the time Bite me bite me tongue an awful lot pull me air out And it's not easy, but also you've always got parents looking over or coaches looking at you thinking am I doing the right thing? But I mean what used to I find bizarre the amount of parents that just assume that they're landing an Academy That's it. They're off. They're gonna play for man United Man City England You know and they're gonna be the next Ronaldo. How difficult is it managing? Their expectations at times it is it's very difficult and and if you look at the percentages of how many players actually make it from a Particular age group if you're in an under 15 age group How many of that group of 18 players come through and make a living in the game? Not necessarily the club that they're at now, but what they're gonna do in the future is so so low We're very fortunate. We've been able to make a living in the game for 20 years playing and now managing for 14 years myself So it's it's and that's where parents have to have a real a check But also it's tough for them because they do see all the trappings the parents see What the first team players are driving and what houses they live in and we're down to 21 And and I've always it's always it is difficult when you're watching your own some playing you're involved in the game I just try and let people talk. I don't voice an opinion too much on things. I let people Big up their own kids or this that you know They're I'm very quiet and just stay out the way as much as I can to the point of Put a hat on and scarf and glasses on the way, but it still doesn't work No, you always get recognized no matter what So finally now leads are doing Okay at the moment. I think we both love to see them back in the Premier League How surprised have you been by Bielsa because I was a little bit I didn't know which way it was going to go I thought it would be the big brilliant or disaster and at the moment it's hedging towards Brilliant, although there's been a few bumps in the road. Yeah, look it I think when it got announced in the summer who's coming it give a big lift to the whole city. There was a big sort of buzz around the place and The weather started the season with not spending a great deal of money fair credit to him He's his world renowned of being this coach as I mentioned earlier. He hasn't reinvented the wheel How hard would it be the fact that he doesn't speak the language? So I mean imagine tomorrow you get a job in South America and you don't speak the language at all How difficult is that it is it? I would think it's extremely difficult, but he must he must have some form of communication with the players in English because I just don't know how you can Relate certain information That you need to get across there and then rather than waiting for an interpreter and then it loses its impact on it It's about tone tonality delivery. Yeah timing and if you have a set to you then you've got a set to somebody else All that must be lost, but he comes across as this incredibly passionate manager driven Must be difficult to get that across in a different language. I think he probably speaks more English than he lets on But I think what he's done is he's quite clever in the early part of the summer preseason He didn't have loads and loads of games he spent a lot of time on the training pitch implementing the ideas of how we wanted to play for the season and Getting that close bonder plays together that if X came in to replace Y into the team He knew exactly what they wanted to do in certain situations and hence that's why I think he's carried such a small squad which Could be a hindrance come the end of the season picking up injuries the intensity of the player, but is It must be so difficult. I can't imagine somebody in South America listening to my Dulce at Yorkshire Tones You never know And any job offers out there, you know feel free So fine obviously this is all about sort of coaching really I mean and especially grass roots coaching You've gone through all the whole system gone through all your badges. I think you're still Educating yourself now obviously they're vitally important But for those of the sort of the just starting out the beginning of their coaching careers even just at an amateur level What's the few little bits of advice that you can offer them? Well, ultimately keep learning keep learning from every session that you put on whether it's Fitness session or tactical session try and analyze what you've done. Can you improve it? Don't be happy just to settle that it's You think it's gone. Well revalidate yourself and have a look to see right. Can I do this better next time? Why didn't this work and an understanding? from practice to make better well to make Learning from other people as well as you mentioned there. I'm still learning now I still put new castle recently with Rafa watching them train and I'm Yeah, it's been most of the time complain about my castle to be fair But it was but you are you're always learning and developing and but I think the biggest Message and I keep touching on it is get the players to enjoy it with its first team football Under 8s under 12s. They're going to football because The what they enjoy what they're doing don't take that now and let the natural ability come through yes Advise them guide them Be an arm around them know what players need to kick up the backside who needs an arm around him who needs cajoling And everybody feels better themselves when they're not being criticized. So somebody makes a mistake I've always tried whether it's reserves first in football is yes Say look you've done that wrong, but can you do this better? Can you always be positive if we players because you ultimately gonna get a better response from and make them better all the time? So re-educating yourself or educating yourself should I say and also being positive with players Whatever age group it is because we can all stand there on a touch line Whatever age group and have a right go at kids on players and it doesn't do the many good whatsoever Brilliant right. Thanks Simon. Good luck with whatever next venture is technical director manager Yeah, whatever it might be no, thanks very much for coming on the podcast Norris Thanks very much to Simon for joining us in the latest episode in season two of the coach of manual podcast Thanks everyone for listening. You can keep up to date with the coaching manual on social media Follow us on Twitter at coaching manual or on Instagram and Facebook at the coach in manual Register from account now for session planning tools high quality coaching content and more essential resources for football coaches at thecoachingmanual.com