 Good afternoon, and welcome to our webinar on women negotiating salary, timely during women's history month. My name is Catherine, Dr. Catherine Schwab, and I am Director of the School of Communication Arts and Media, or SOCAM, in the College of Arts and Sciences, and Professor of Art History and Visual Culture in the Department of Visual and Performing Arts. Some acknowledgements are in order. I would like to thank Richard Greenwald, Dean of the College of Arts and Sciences, and the SOCAM departments of Communication, English, Modern Languages and Literatures, and Visual and Performing Arts. Also, Janet Canapa, Assistant Vice President of Alumni Relations, as well as Dion Gray Wilson, SOCAM program coordinator, Jean Danielle, Director of Operations and Budget Manager of the College of Arts and Sciences, and Jamie Di Stefano, media specialist. Additionally, a great thanks to Maurice Rose, Chair of Visual and Performing Arts, and Kimberly Nicolenko, Director of Career Engagement in the College of Arts and Sciences, Office of Career and Professional Development. Maurice and Kim will join us for the Q&A portion of the webinar. SOCAM annually hosts an alumni panel with each department represented. This year we changed course to take advantage of a Zoom webinar format while focusing on a specific topic, women negotiating salary. The urgency of this topic is underscored by publications within the last two months. Princeton University Press published the book, Women Don't Ask, Negotiation and the Gender Divide. The Wall Street Journal published an article within the last two weeks entitled Women Negotiating Salary and Letters to the Editor as a Follow-up. These publications reflect the need to know more, as well as learning when to ask and when not to ask. This brings us to our guest speaker, Lindsay Autofie, class of 2006. Lindsay was an art history major and upon graduation began working for Fortune 100 companies, including Gartner, FACSET and UBS, driving employer branding, recruiting and marketing strategies. She is currently the head of employer branding and campus recruiting at Danone. Lindsay is a regular participant in our Art History and Visual Culture Alumni Forum, which takes place every three years. Moreover, she joined three other alumni several years ago on campus to discuss the topic of women negotiating salary. We hope today's presentation will give all of us a better understanding of the need for women to negotiate salary in the larger sense and tips to determine when to ask. After Lindsay's presentation, we will have Q&A. You can post your questions in the Q&A feature at any time. My colleagues, Marisa and Kim will serve as moderators and relay questions to Lindsay. Please welcome Lindsay Autofie. Thank you so much Kathy. Really excited to be here today. I appreciate you inviting me on for this important topic. Hi everyone, I'm Lindsay. Thank you so much for joining us this evening. Really excited to be here to chat about this topic. I was really touched to be asked and I'm going to be sharing a comment about my personal experiences as well as some tips and research that I did in preparation for today as well. So we're covering three sections. The first section is going to be on my career journey so you get a little bit of an idea of me and how I got to where I am today. The second piece is going to be on why I really think you should consider negotiating your salary. And then the next section is going to be on some tips on how you can negotiate your salary. So this is my career journey. As Kathy touched on, I was an art major here at Ferris wheel and I had a really great experience. The art history program is fantastic in my opinion. I had a really great time studying art history. I had a great time for me to venture out on my first job. I had decided ultimately that while I loved studying art history, it wasn't something I wanted to do a long time for. So it kind of left me in a little bit of a jam. I was like, great, this is my senior year and I've decided I want to do something to be successful. And I'm not really sure what I want to do. And finally, I had a fellow art history major at the time had landed me helped me land an internship and a recruitment me a full time job upon, which was super wet. And one of the really great things about this job was the recruiting. He had a lot of clients and different. A variety of different industries from the pharmaceutical industry, marketing industry, as well as the finance industry. And I really got about the different potential career paths one could take in the local area, which was really exciting for me. So I decided at this time that I was going to investment bankers and hedge fund people I'd read about I was going to go make my millions at UBS. So I made a move to operation, which was in Stanford, Connecticut, time, and I had a slight miscalculation there, though, in 2008, which was at the peak of the financial meltdown. So I got there and instead of making millions it was more at the time like, this is how we reorgan lay off and, you know, do more with less of a vibe so what exactly what I expected but I made a lot of great connections there and one of them said, I've got an opportunity to make up company and position was in New York City, which I just thought was the coolest thing that could happen to me would be a job in New York City. And this is I'll share a little bit about negotiation, but this was the first time I would hit kind of like I would say a miscalculation around negotiations. So, what I didn't factor in about city was the cost of commuting the New York City taxes, and those expensive New York City lunches. When all was said and done, I actually ended up making less money that I had previously at UBS, although I was getting free lipstick and makeup. So there was that per, however, not exactly. So in fact set called, which if you aren't familiar with them, they're a financial software company in Norwalk and are really great. I jumped on the opportunity to actually able to share my career started right out of college. And to now called, which is basically you can think of that as we're recruiting and marketing meat. It was really exciting. I was like, this is my passion. I love this. And I felt my major playing well here. It was very visual was a lot about how things look design being creative. So it was a good mix. So, well, a friend of mine from Gartner called me up and said I have a great opportunity for what you're doing for more money and more scope and a leadership type position. So I jumped at people to join them. I had a really great run at Gartner and learned a lot. Plug here if you're local in the area. Great company didn't Stanford, Connecticut. So definitely now if that's something on your mind, but I also here had my kid and had my kid I also had my. It was a great interesting time for me in terms of growth and change at Gartner, which ultimately, another point I'll get to in a little bit negotiating was it changed my financial a little bit. When I got divorced, I definitely love my opportunity and when I was ready to take my next step, one thing that was high on my list was compensation. The situation had changed. He came along, and they were able to give me an opportunity that allowed me to make a bit more money and lead a global team which was really an exciting opportunity for me, which was all going really well, and then changes going on at EPAM and America would just happen to give me a call and said, hey, we have another opportunity for, you know, another leadership. I jumped on the chance to take that. So I also at that time to in my career when thinking about things around what kind of company do I want to work for why does it matter what's important to know. To know North America also has a huge commitment to giving social good, and I'm going to move on just a little bit more about me. I'm an avid avid runner. I'm a skier. I'm in self improvement enthusiast. So I'm always trying to tweak my smoothie or listen to some new podcasts on how I can get better at presenting. And then I'm a mom, and I'm also a Connecticut. I was born and raised in Richfield Connecticut went to school here so I am a local to Connecticut. So the next section I'm going to talk about is why I really think that you should negotiate. So this is a combination of information that I've researched as well as anecdotes from my own experience. So the first reason that I think it's really important is that it will actually cost you to not negotiate and it's not a small sum of number. There's something called the compounding effect which over time means that if you don't negotiate you're essentially leaving something towards like hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table and this is based off of a small difference of whether you're going to come in. In your initial job for say making $50,000 or $55,000. So it may seem small when you're at the beginning but over the course of your 40 year on average career, it's going to make an impact. So you can also think about this to in. If you come in at 50 this will also determine the percentage of your for money that goes into your 401k so that 4% will be based off of this number. The percentage of your bonus will come out of this number. And I think one to think about to is your next job typically will tide around currently what you're making so over time the price of not negotiating is expensive. The upside is research has showed that men who have negotiated salaries. They typically increase them by an average of 7.4%, which if you flip that equation means over time, making substantially more money. Research has shown that when women who consistently negotiate their salaries will typically earn about 1 million more over their lifetimes on average than those who don't. Recruiters also expect you to negotiate. I know as a woman for myself I'm often worried about how I will be perceived, you know, especially with all the research around, you know, women coming off too aggressive and that being potentially a negative, but the research which lean in. If you haven't read the book by Cheryl Sandberg is a really fabulous book, and it all they now have a website, or they've done even more research and give a lot of tips on how you can negotiate. And they found that 80% of recruiters report that candidates that negotiate make a better impression than those who just accept. So while there's often, you know, that feeling that maybe it won't be well received, you know, recruiters are expecting you to have this conversation. And some other important stats around women specifically why I think this matters is that women typically make less money than men, depending on which report you read it's about 80% 80 cents to the dollar. One of the other interesting stats here is the second piece is they have less years to work so often women are the ones that step out of the workforce to have children, or they go on maternity leave and things like that and over time, they might take a part time role, which ultimately means in that net that they have fewer years to work to earn money in terms of their lifetime. And then to compound that they live longer. So typically we're out living men, you know, we're living to 81 on average and men are living to 76 so we're actually even living longer. So all the more reason why it's really important that we're thinking about our long term financial growth and why this matters over time. And finally, divorce. I hope that this is something that not everybody has to go through but the reality is this day and age 50% of marriages do end in divorce, and you can see here from some stats, you know, typically women, you know, 85% of them are lacking financial confidence which then causes them to advocate their role in long term financial planning. And unfortunately in terms of the stats for women who do get divorced, 77% of divorced women and widows said they've been hit with financial surprises like secret accounts after their marriages that ended. And their standard of living drops significantly, as opposed to where men's where they increased. So, while this won't be everybody 50% isn't as a decent amount of number where I think it's really important to consider your financial earnings and with that negotiating to make sure over time you are building yourself a nice financial net. I put in this fun little quote here this may be dating myself to some of the students but there's this great song from the this from sunscreen called sunscreen and it's don't expect anyone else to support you, maybe you'll have a trust fund maybe you'll have a wealthy spouse but you never know when either one might run out. So, anyway, not that that's necessarily always the case but I think it's just something to be thoughtful about when we're thinking about our financial future. So, great. Thanks Lindsay for sharing some some ideas and stats I'm kind of halfway down the path to you on that this is something that I should be thinking about. Great, how do I do it. So I pulled together here for you some tips on how to negotiate your salary. So the first one that I think is really important is you have to know what you want, and you have to know what your non negotiables are. And this is going to change over time. So, I think when you're thinking about negotiations you want to think about stack ranking things like compensation risk risk stability work life balance, the company room for growth and things like that, and this may change coming out of school. You might be more willing to take a risk on a startup that might be a little bit riskier for your career. After maybe coming back from having a baby you may just want work life balance and stability to keep you grounded. So when you're walking into the table in regards to the negotiation room you want to understand where you're willing to give and where you're not willing to give and be really clear on that and be upfront about it too. And then I would also say when you're going in negotiations, make sure you're not putting all of your like rock bottom this is like what I will take salary in you're going to end up meeting in the middle between somewhere where your new hiring manager is looking to be and where you want to be. And this goes back to really important to know what's most important to you. Are you willing to bend on compensation. Are you willing to have a shorter commute. Make sure you understand going into the conversation where you where you are on that. Do your homework. So this one may seem a little bit obvious, but now when you research online you can find salary information everywhere, you can go on Glassdoor, you can go on salary.com, you can put it right into Google. I also recommend if you have friends and family and network that you trust and felt comfortable with that you tap into your network. I have a lot of recruiter friends in my network and so often asked them and kind of gut check whether or not something sounds like it's reasonable. But the information is out there and it's actually leading more and more to being public. For example, Colorado is the first state that's passed the law that you must put salary on the job description itself. So do your research and do your homework so that way when you're coming to the table. You have facts behind why you're picking this range and you can also feel confident that what you're asking for is reasonable. And I would say the pitfall to avoid here is that you don't want to use emotion. You want to use data and don't be afraid to sometimes ask people in your network. I know it's a sensitive topic so don't just go running around asking anybody. But if there are people you think might be open and comfortable. It's another great way to tap in and see what if what you're asking for is reasonable. So consider hidden costs and your current perks. I'm going to tap back to my example here while I went to Avon where I did not calculate the commuting costs and I did not calculate the difference in the state taxes. I ultimately ended up making less money. And I think here it's really important to understand companies are often offering a lot of wellness benefits. I used to get a free lunch at my job at fact set. Things like that. You also have to think about these benefits in terms of if you stop having them. How much will it cost you after in a post tax dollar to cover that same cost. So free lunch that you get that comes out to maybe a $2000 a year benefit and the company is paying for it. It's going to cost you 30% more on average, at least to cover that 2000 grants you're going to need to make more than the 2000 itself. So anyway, something to calculate some of those hidden costs they may seem small but as I found out the hard way and maybe you don't have to. They can add up and it's important to make sure you're reviewing all the different pieces of your offer. The fourth tip I have is write a script with all these proof points. So you've done your research, you understand what you're looking for and what your non negotiables are, write it out in a succinct script in terms of why you think that you know you're someone who deserves this type of salary based on your successes. Your projects, if you're just starting out from school it could be projects from class. If you're further along in your career it could be successful projects you implemented at work. And then share some of those industry stats. You know I saw in Glassdoor and Salary that people are paying X from these types of companies and this is about the range for this role. And then write a response for the hiring manager if they initially push back. So I say usually expect that you're going to hear well we're at the top of our range, and we don't think that you know we're going to be able to go any higher. So you have a nice succinct response for when that comes. And then the pitfall to avoid here. Do not mention personal reasons for why you need the raise. Whatever is going on, it's definitely important but when you're in the negotiation space you want to be coming from a position of strength, and you want to be sharing why you have value and tied into where you can make an impact and what's fair and reasonable in the marketplace, so much in terms of your own personal needs, even if they may be there. Practice. So I think this is another important piece, especially I know for me in my journey I was extremely uncomfortable these conversations can be a little bit awkward. You're asking for something and it's probably something that you haven't necessarily had these conversations before with and it's high stakes. This is your salary this is your future this is your ability to earn and you're probably really excited about the position. Because you've gotten this far in the process. So practice what you're going to say practice with a friend, record yourself with all the zoom functionalities these days you can see exactly how you're coming off. And then one great tip that I think that I found that's been helpful is to negotiate on the small things in your life for the stakes aren't as high. So I practice with my toddler, you know, like you can have this cookie for that or not and it's a little bit lower stakes. And that way I start to get used to feeling and how you kind of work through difficult conversations. So again, reiterating the pitfall here is similar a little bit to the one before but anticipate that you know you might get some pushback and be really practiced in your response. I pulled together a little sample script here. I won't read it word for word, but basically, the person says I'm really valuable I'm a great fit and this is why I'd be amazing for the role. Hiring manager says this is the most we can pay you say I totally understand and I'm willing to be flexible, but I really think that you know it'd be great to see if we get closer to the number that I'm looking for based on my skill set. The manager says, Okay, we'll go back and take a look. And then you say cool and calm and say thank you. And I think one of the important things I want to emphasize here is just staying to your script being succinct, calm and confident. They may say no, but then at least you have your answer. So which goes into the next point, you want to ask with confidence and with clarity, you want to come off confident, stay positive and firm you don't want to be pushy stick to your points and let there be pauses and silence. So I know for me, this is one of the things that I've had to work on is I want to build that awkward silence this is an awkward conversation. I want to just put in a lot of words. This is not the time this is something that's a business transaction and you just stay focused on what you're trying to accomplish you could lose your message and lose what you're trying to do if you're not staying on point. So let it be quiet if the hiring manager, you know, takes a minute. So okay, let that be there. And then one thing that I learned in my research coming up to this is, there's a lot of value in candidates asking first. So the research they did they said that the final offer amount was 30% higher when the candidate made the first offer. This is from the union organization and I will say anecdotally I have found this to be the case for myself. In my later half of my career negotiating I typically knew what my value was in the marketplace. I knew what I wanted. When they asked me, you know, like what are you making I said this is what I'm looking for and I put out a number that I knew would be exciting enough for me to make the move. So I'd already kind of set the tone on what I wanted right up front. And most of the times that's what I received. So I would just say I think it's an interesting thing to think about. And then seven. I think one really important thing to keep in mind is you want to continually always show your excitement for the role for the company throughout the whole process like yes you're negotiating but you're going to ultimately go work there with these people and you don't want it to get adversarial. So keeping it in a positive space framing it in how can we have a win win here I really want to come to a place where we both feel good. And that even just having that more positive energy typically gets people to think more creatively. And instead of getting on the defense, your hiring manager might say okay great so we can't do anything about salary but maybe we could do something about vacation time. So keep that in mind the positive energy and having excitement you know reiterate that make sure you're making your employer also feel or whoever's you know you're negotiating with really good still through the process. So just to say here I like to use the example of a marriage proposal when you think about a company giving you a job offer, they've essentially gotten down on one knee and they said you're it, we want you to come work for us, right. And you're saying thank you so much, I would like a bigger ring. You don't deserve a bigger ring, but you need to be thoughtful about how you approach that the same way you would with dating. So, just remember that they have a lot in the stake to they've probably gone to back for you with their with their managers and said this is the person. So just keep that in mind while you're negotiating. I'm going to leave you with these three final thoughts on this topic. Negotiation is a skill that you can learn. This is not something that I knew how to do it's something that I've practiced I had to write it down I had to do it with the script I had to talk it through and practice it in the mirror many times and even now I still get a little bit the more you do it the more you can hone that skill and the better you get the first time I negotiated it was more like a couple thousand dollars now I've had a much bigger impact on my salary because I have a better attunement of that skill. If you never ask, the answer is always no. So, and I think that's one thing too is that you have to be open to the facts that you may hear the answer no and that's okay but if you never ask the answer is just always no. And finally, you are worth it. So I know for me and I know from a lot of women that I've spoken with having that kind of imposter feeling that like, could I really be demanding this type of a salary like it can this really be happening to me. That goes through my head a lot and I have a really great support network that helps me with that. I think that's one thing that we really need to work on is that we do have value and things like women coming back from the workforce you have things to offer you don't even necessarily realize you are worth it. So, give it a shot. And that's it. Thank you so much Lindsay. We have two questions that are similar so I'm going to ask them at the same time. I'm just from people who are currently in a job and are asking about asking for raises. And when should you expect to raise and should you ask in COVID world is it fair to expect one what do you recommend with raises once you're in a position. I think a great question and I think I think there's always an opportunity to negotiate whether you're in a role or whether you're coming into a role I do think you have more leverage when you're coming in new to a role. That being said, when you're in a role there's also still that opportunity. For me, I found it works best if you make sure you kind of start to walk your manager down the road before it's cop season, because they usually have to start to socialize things like hey we want to potentially give this person a raise. I think you come out of the same way you write down your accomplishments and why you think like which projects how they made an impact. Don't assume your manager remembers all those things. They're doing 1500 other things they're forgotten all about you. You need to keep putting it in their face in a nice way. It's pulling that together and then asking for what you want based on I would do the same thing. Hey, market rate is paying, you know, X amount more for my current role. These are the projects that I have done and really nailed. I would really like to make X amount of more money and think about what you think might be reasonable within the constraints of what maybe you know a little bit, you know, like, asking for a million dollars. I would say, you know, it is, I have found sometimes it's tricky internally, because it has to be built up. So just be prepared if they say no say great. What do I need to do to be able to get to the next level because this is where I want to go. And that's, that's how I would handle it internally. Thank you. And do we have what's sort of related. This person is asking that they've completed an MBA while working part time and while their work hasn't totally changed. How can they ask for more money or a raise at the same job but they've now gotten more skills or another degree. I think I would approach it the same in the same way pull out what about that MBA now makes you more valuable to the company and how you can do a greater impact based on some of the skills you've learned. And I would frame it that way and add that into your points of why it's really great and ultimately depends you know if you can't 100% get it where you are you know think about you know are there other companies that are really looking for people with MBAs. I know to known hires people with MBAs specifically for certain roles. So that's another angle to go if you can't ultimately get what you need internally. If an employer asks for salary expectations and a cover letter, how would you suggest handling that. So, in many states now they're technically, you know, not necessarily supposed to ask you about your salary. I have found on some application forms or you know potentially a cover letter. I typically put zero. Because I think it's something that you know for me I prefer to have a conversation about and understand more like is there a range what are we looking for or I want to you know do my research first. So I typically that's how I handle it. Another question is do you have any ideas or resources for how they can research the cost of living for a new area not just the salary and how the cost of living might affect that salary in that area if they're moving to a different area. That's a really great point and I would say there's a lot of websites that cover that. I can't think of anything on the top of my head but if you put it into Google and search around like cost of living in certain states they'll run like all the stats for you. And it's definitely something that gets that recruiters think about I mean I've been a recruiter myself and sometimes we're actually selling locations that are you know have no state taxes or something like that. Because it's a lower cost of living so to do the research I mean if you're moving from one state to another, there should be general cost of living from like housing from like average salary P and that all online as well. Can you speak to students who are graduating or recent alums. What kind of skills and achievements from a classroom setting should they focus on if they haven't had much work experience. Student had back on I feel like it was just yesterday but it's been a few years now. I think think about like I would read the job descriptions of some of the roles you're looking at but I know when I was an art history major for example at writing I did a lot of writing so knowing that I could edit right really well presenting teamwork. I used a couple examples of how I had to work with a team to be able to you know do a present group presentation together as an example of like how can you well collaborate with people so I think look at your background in terms of you have a lot of great skills, you know that you're you're using on a regular basis probably like presenting writing collaboration and things like that and and see how you can twist it. We have another. It's like a two part question and it says do the same rules of negotiation apply for internal promotions. And the second part is when you start start talking salary is it in the beginning of the process or do you wait for them to make the offer to you. So, internally, I think, I think the same the same rules apply, I do think that internally. What I found is that you know it might be a little bit trickier to have like a, you know, depending on where you are on the salary ban, a massive massive bump, but I do think that I would go for the same type of, here's what the market is bearing for this role and here's what I think that I'm worth. And how can we get me at least closer to that. And I'm sorry, Kim, would you mind repeating the last part of the question. Sure, one minute. Let me just scroll down card where it was hold on. They wanted to know when to start talking salary is can you start talking at the beginning of the process or should you wait till they make an offer to you. I think based on the research in the experience I've had that you should come prepared in terms of what you're looking for and that the research shows that typically you're going to get a higher offer if you go to them first and say this is what you're looking for as opposed to waiting for them to come back to you you can wait for them to come back to you but the research has shown that you're likely going to be making you'll make you'll be closer to the number you're looking for if you go in first and ask. I would also preface that slightly by it is also, you know, it's like kind of like playing a game of poker or something you know it's a it's a bit of a dance, you know negotiation so it's not always necessarily black and whites you got to kind of feel it through. But I do think the research is pretty compelling around, you know, you kind of coming forward with like this is what I really want and then everyone's really cleared towards what you're also you're looking, looking for. Another related question. How do I know when to stop negotiating after how many rounds when do you know that it's enough. That's a really great question. I think two things here. One you have to read the room. So if someone is looking really uncomfortable and they're you know they've already gone to bat for you several times and you can sense the dynamic is shifting. I think you need to just keep a pulse a pulse on that. I would say you don't really want to do a lot of rounds, you want to kind of be really upfront with what you're looking for, maybe go back and forth once if it's not close to where you want to be. And then that's kind of where they're at and the employer will typically let you know to like this is where we've gone to and when they say that that's that's the time to like pull back and understand you know negotiation you're not going to necessarily get everything you want and it's about finding that middle ground and I think that's really important to remember. You don't want to just endlessly push it because you may end up with maybe a little bit more but you have to remember you're going to work with these people. So I think that's where it's being really important knowing what you want up front, saying, you know, getting as close to as you can, but doing a lot of back and forth is not a great place to get to. Okay, another question. And it says this may sound ridiculous but can I, but I never thought I could know she, I'm sorry, negotiate by salary as a nurse and also so this goes to are there certain professions or industries that you can negotiate in versus that you can't negotiate it. That's a great question. From my experience, and I'll speak from my lens, you know from like my recruiter hat and the different industries I've worked in. It hasn't it hasn't mattered I, I do think there's probably exceptions to that like maybe like, just thinking off the top of my head the military might have some set bands but I think there's always a little bit of opportunity to be able to negotiate and again I think to if it's not something that's possible, you know I think it'll be pretty clear up front, you know in terms of like this is what we have. You know and even then I think it still doesn't hurt to ask, you know what I mean I think that's the whole thing right it doesn't. Is there a wiggle room on this or is there any more we could go up based on XYZ, you know what I mean and if they come back and say no then you know. But from my experience it's been something where like there's usually a little bit of wiggle room granted I've worked mostly in corporate, but I, you know, worked with a lot of recruiters. There's usually a little bit of wiggle room. Sandy says at my current position I saw HR records and I know they were able to offer more than what they offered me. I did negotiate and received a raise recently but still under that number. Is there anything I can do this has led to me feeling not respected at work. That's a that's a great question and definitely a little bit tricky because you definitely it's a, you know, having insider information from HR is always a little bit touchy. You know, I think if you could find the information, you know, out there and research it and say that this is really the going rate around it. That might be something to look at but I think that's also probably an instance if they've just given you a raise thinking through there is a finite amount of budget at a firm. If you're out of place, like, you know, that's some industries like for example in COVID right now we're doing awesome. Some are doing really can financially constraint so I think think about the lens of which the bigger picture is you know in terms of like are they just tighter on budget all around. That might not be the case. And then if you really feel passionately that you know there's is this is off I think doing the research and going back to it. You know to see if there's any more wiggle room could could be good but it is definitely something I mean, citing HR information might be a little bit tricky and maybe not so well received in your negotiation rounds. But I think that's kind of how I would look at it it's in terms of addressing. So next question is advice on a workplace that will give you a title change but no raise. So, again, I think this goes back to you know what you're looking for. If the title is really important to you and you, you know that's something that really matters to you. Great if compensation at this point in time is something that's more important to me. You all work to get paid. So that's that's a reality but there's I think multiple factors that go into a job offer. You know, I think if you are looking to take your next step and there it's a title change and it's not necessarily moving you into a new direction I think it's something to think about so I think you'd want to look at where you are where you want to go and what matters most. And there's some companies and industries that pay at the top of the market and there's some that pay a little less but sometimes the exchange on that might be maybe you're better set up with leadership, maybe you're well positioned here or maybe there's good work life balance. So I think you have to look at the whole equation of what you're really looking for. I'm going to go back to that example when I was getting divorced, higher compensation became more of a must for me. I may not have been making quite an aggressive move my financial situation hadn't changed I had a great positioning at the firm I was at. But I think that you have to look at it in terms of like what you're ultimately looking to do with the firm. How likely is it to negotiate fringe benefits like vacation dates are those normally standard or are those negotiable. Another great question. And I think in negotiations you want to be creative. I've seen people negotiate vacation days. I think it's a great way to be like if a company has maxed out on their, you know, this is as far as we can go on this, you know, in on the compensation adding that as another thing in the ring to negotiate definitely something you can do and explore and you can ask it in the right I think in the right tone you know as this you know hey alternatively could we look at vacation or could I work from home a few days a week instead and we can help me feel more whole about the offer that we're trying to do. I think that's something to think about. I know for me when I came back from eternity leave I renegotiated how many days I was in the office because my situation had changed and it was just like a regular negotiation because it affected a lot of other things. And, you know, but essentially it was something that I was able to change the dynamic on and I brought research so. We don't have any more questions right now so if anyone has more please put them in the Q amp a but I think Dr Schwab has a question or two. Well I have a couple of thoughts. One Lindsay is that in a normal work situation. You get reviewed. Let's say there's the annual review and let's say you're one or two years into working after graduating from college. When you get your review and your supervisor says you are doing a fabulous job, you're just terrific. At what point should the person being reviewed speak up and ask for a potential raise an increase in salary. Because that seems to be, it's like you get this big pat on the back. But there's no change in the financial. So when exactly be obviously a delicate time frame but when would you recommend that the employee speak up. So I think always a great time to speak up is after you have a big win to kind of like set the stage, or around a period of time where you know they're considering reviews and consideration. So for me there's typically been a time of year where people are reviewed in a room, and people look at your accomplishments. So I think making sure you express your interest maybe have a couple great wins under your bell and you're saying hey I'm really looking for XYZ. And then you present that to your manager and then making sure you feed them regularly again I think managers have a lot on their plate, making sure that like especially when you know I used to know when that meeting was coming up so I'd make sure that I, you know in my one on one with my boss reminder of like kind of all him or her at the time depending of the wins that I've had and you know and make it tailored towards the wins not just I did this but we were able to move the needle for the company and had X results. How can we do more of this I'm really excited about how we were able to drive it forward, and really tie it into like the greater good and give them talking points that's how I like to look at it too. So they can go back to their peers because you have to remember a lot of times it's not just a one to one conversation that they have to have they have to tap into a larger budget. They have to compare it against Joe and Sue and all the other people that have also performed well so there's that component to keep in mind. So make sure that you have plenty of your kind of like continuing to share your great wins, and think about the timing of your company around you can back it out from bonus season. And then back out review season look at your mid year review make sure your team your stuff up all year round. So, I think if you feel like you've been there two years you've really made an impact and you feel like you've nailed your role. I think then that's, you know, if you feel like you've come to that position that's a great time to ask for for is. Okay, and just as a follow up in case they're there are there some more questions in the Q amp a. The follow up is the role of your supervisor who just as you've described has to go to the next level and go to bat for you at usually at HR. And keeping that person informed. So, based on that I'm thinking of this book. We've talked about it already but not this evening. And that is a book by Lydia Fennett on you're the most important woman in the room. And it's, she's done a remarkable job as a charity auctioneer raised billions. And she was alone in the New York City area but is hired by nonprofits all over the nation. And she had, she wrote about her experiences and I think she was just in shock when she discovered somebody she had just hired was earning enough to buy her own apartment whereas Lydia was still trying to find roommates to pay rent and she realized what have I done. And to really work with one of the supervisors who oversaw her area. And I think that person ended up really going to bat for her so that awareness that chain, right, is very important. And I think that's one thing that I know for me has taken a bit to build the muscle which I would consider that kind of managing up is that I feel like a lot of times women are always. I've read some articles about either they're doing work that's maybe not the sexier work to be seen, or they're not so great as when they do a win they'll like tell five people and give six other people credit and being your own advocate on that and making sure you want to stay and I think saying I I I isn't necessarily the way but saying like everyone else did everything is, you know, also detrimental to your success, you know what I mean I think owning what you've done and what you're proud of and making sure you're advocating, regularly repeat the messaging I mean you. Again going back to like your boss also needs to go to bat against their colleagues and say this is why and if they have really great talking points because you've made sure that the both of you know all the amazing work you're doing. So even on like my experience working remotely, you know, sometimes I can work on a project. My boss is doing six other things as she may not know the full scope of what I'm doing how much went into it, the networking that had to do to get some things done and I think that's where it's really important to help equip them to be able to go and manage up to you. And also, I think there's a part of advocating for yourself over not advocating for yourself. If you're someone who's coming to them they're going to remember you when they're like okay I've got five people on my team Lindsay's been you know, sharing a lot I'm really confident about what she's doing. Jill is not really shared much he does a great job we know she does good stuff like you're putting yourself in a better position if your boss, especially. I've seen some of her senior peers like wherever you can do to kind of make sure that you know your face is associated with that win in some capacity I had a boss that used to be really great at that you know she's like. We would have worked on something but there was like a certain area should be like you send the email, because this is your program and we want to keep positioning you as the person that has been doing these successes so thinking through things like that I mean, I've been helped coached on that but what you could do for yourself to is think of ways to make sure that you're getting the credit for the work that you're doing I do see this a lot with the women I work with where they're doing a lot of heavy grunt work and then like someone else presents in a meeting. And they're like, I did all the heavy lifting for that so I think it's a really important thing to think about because just doing the work isn't enough necessarily to get you to where you want to go it'll get you to a certain point. And to really command, you know, further going further in your career making more money you have to make sure that it's a delicate dance again you know you don't want to be. You like I but like hey these are the things that I am bringing to the table and making sure people know that. So, thank you. We have a couple more questions in the chat. If you become aware that there's salary differences and different divisions of your organization, and you know otherwise they should be sort of on the same page one would think. How do you ignore the drastic differences between the salaries and feeling undervalued as a result and this. It was not published so it wasn't inside Intel from HR. How do you say it was hard to see the salary differences and seeing where I fit in, in all of that. Yeah, first off and I definitely I could, I could, you know, that would definitely not feel good if I saw you know people doing comparable work I think it is important to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. If you're in a back office function versus our front office function we have marketers brand marketers that go out and sell yogurt to all these people. I have a unique role in HR which is a back office firm so if you were to publish the salaries I don't know off the top of my head but they wouldn't necessarily potentially be be equal. As I said I think that if this information is public, and you're not feeling great about it I think there's also having an open honest dialogue with your supervisor boss about how that makes you feel and is there anything we can do about kind of closing these gaps or could you help me better understand why this person is making this and I'm making this what's the difference. Not knowing what the backgrounds are I don't want to comment on it could be you guys are doing apples to apples roles and that's one scenario, or it could be that you're doing roles that have different financial impact. I always say track the money back. What is hitting revenue what is making the company money and what is costing the company money that that will differentiate, you know different areas. But that being said I think you know there's times in my career where I found like speaking up and voicing my concerns and hearing the why behind something is a certain way has helped me like let go of kind of like a resentment I may have created that like, I'm not getting this because it acts and then my boss is like well no we had to do budget cuts from here and here and this is just the way it is this year don't worry you're on the list for next year kind of thing so clearing the air on that so that you're understanding why this is the way it is and if you really want to get to where they are, you know, asking your boss like how is this possible. You know I've sat down with my boss several jobs ago and said hey I'm ready for a move what do you recommend I do I know there's no position on our team right now. What do what do you recommend I do and he gave a variety of the set he gave me really great advice he was like, try to grow your current role. I'm going to grow and see what else is in the firm and look externally in terms of what us so three pronged approach, because he's like it. There's a lot of factors involved and you can use kind of each one of those. So, anyway, I would definitely look to clarify so that you understand the why behind the way things are again another uncomfortable situation but kind of relates to the negotiation idea it's also part of negotiating your worth is being able to say hey I see a discrepancy. Can you help me better understand this. I'm getting to the end but maybe this question will kind of help others is you mentioned leaning in and the most powerful woman in the room are there any other books or any other recommendations you can make on this topic to help further the learning for our people who are attending. I would say if you haven't read Cheryl sand books book. I think that's another great one I know that's one that you know, it's gotten a lot of press and I think check out their website. This one, women don't ask which is actually the updated version Professor Schwab plugged is coming out from the Princeton review so that would be another one to check out. So what I'm happy to share to afterwards. There's some really great articles out there now if you even just kind of search around with like scripts to really help you kind of get used to what you're doing. And then. Yeah, I would say those are kind of some of the main ones that I've looked that I would recommend. One more I think it's important because of the topic of women negotiating salary. What's the role you see for advocating for women in junior positions. Would you recommend that when you see a colleague is not self advocating as well as they could. I love this question. Hey because I'm hugely passionate about this topic. I have a lot of friends that have amazing skills that come to me and they don't think they're worth what they're worth. And that drives me crazy. So I see this in the workplace to and I think we need to help advocate and bring each other up in the workplace so I've coached more junior people saying to them like hey like you know so and so ran off and you know said that was this was their work and it was really your work, you know make sure that if you're spending time on something that it's something that you know you're also getting credit for and then coaching them like, Hey, have you thought about what you really want in your career are you asking for it are you advocating it I find with more junior people and I relate to this is how I felt I was just grateful to have a job. I didn't want to ask for what I really wanted so I would just tell you I'll do anything you want which is which is fine and when you're getting started you should be open to taking on what's really needed but I think there's also a line where we need to help younger women especially when you're more established in your career you can kind of bend backwards and help out others I think it's really important that we're coaching each other and we see it happening that we call it out in a nice way and be like hey have you thought about. I see you're really passionate about X have you let so and so know that you'd be interested in something like that, sometimes being as simple as just even asking or putting it on the table. You know I know an example recently someone was doing a recruiter job and they were really interested in doing a campus role. They said you know I can do whatever you want and then I said but what do you want to do, and then you know she went and asked for she wanted you won't necessarily get it but I think when you spot that in the workplace helping to coach, and, and share with women you know like think about where you want to go think about the impact you can make on your career like. This isn't you know this isn't like growing up we're like we're helping all each other it's this is your career so you have to think about it from a business lens, and not necessarily about like will so and so like you more necessarily. That's part of the game but I think it's really important that, especially as we go along in our career that we are helping you know the younger generation, teach them the skills show them where they can you know better advocate for skills. I've had a lot of younger women, you know, even surpass me in my career after I've done some coaching so I think it can definitely, you know be helpful. Well, I want to thank Lindsay so much you have been blended, and you've been very generous with your expertise and your insights, given us a lot to think about. That was the, the start of a lot of conversations, they're ongoing, so it takes work and everybody needs to mean and on this one right. And I also want to thank very much Maurice and Kim for your wonderful help throughout this whole process and getting this organized and also for handling so beautifully the questions that were posed by our audience. Thank you everyone. Thank you for joining us and we wish you a good evening. Good night. Thanks everyone.