 Welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. You know, this is, as Jared Ransom says, frayay, the best day of the week, because we get to do ask and answer. And this is, like, I think my most fun thing that I get to do as a co-host of the nonprofit show, because it's always a mystery. It's always a challenge. Sometimes it's heartbreaking. Sometimes it's kind of like, duh, and sometimes it's funny. And so who better to share this time with than Muhi Kuwaja? Muhi's one of the trainers at Fundraising Academy. And really interestingly enough, he's co-founder of American Muslim Community Foundation. The Community Foundation system is fascinating. And we're gonna be talking with Muhi about this more and exploring this again. I'm Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Nonprofit Academy. Super excited to have you with us. You know, part and parcel of when we started the nonprofit show now almost four years ago, we made calls to a few folks, and all of a sudden we had this tremendous support. And it has remained with us nearly 100 or 1,000 episodes. And it includes Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part-Time Controller, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, Nonprofit Nerd, and Nonprofit Tech Talk. You might see a new logo with Fundraising Academy coming through. So that's super cool. Hey, again, if you wanna find us, we will meet you where you are. You can download our app, which is free. You can find us on streaming and you can even listen to us in podcast format. So however it works for you, wherever you are, we want to join you. Okay, Muhi, let's dive into it because we have a lot of questions and some of them are kind of tough, but this one, easy. I'm gonna throw it to you. How important is it to start a board meeting with a mission moment and what is it actually? Also, is this only for boards or should this be for regular staff meetings? Should they include this? This comes to us from Jamila in Los Angeles. Yeah, I love this question. So let's start out with what it is exactly. I would say mission moment is the reason why or a moment when the board member or staff member got to see and witness the mission in action. Maybe they volunteered and they work at a food bank and they got to put together packets for people who were picking them up later in the day or in the week. Or they got to witness an installation of fire alarms through Red Cross in communities that are more susceptible to home fires. So it could be anything of the sort. And I think they're a great way to start out board meetings. For staff meetings, if they're weekly, it might be dependent on the size of the team, maybe one person share, but I think they're definitely good for boosting morale and hearing people's why. Right, you know, until Jamila wrote this, I have to admit and fess up. I never thought about this for staff meetings. I don't know why I just thought of it as like a board thing. And I know in some cases with boards I've sat on, there are HIPAA issues and privacy issues where you can't find people to witness how service impacted them. But in that case, we brought in staff to say, you know, I witnessed this or I did this. And so that we could kind of then get a day in the life of the people who were working for the organization. But I think it's really important. It doesn't have to be more than five or 10 minutes, but I feel like Muhe, it grounds us and it kind of pulls us back to why we are meeting and what we need to be focusing on. So, you know, Jamila, I hope that helps because I don't know, Muhe, I don't think enough people are doing it. And so I think it's really an important aspect of the whole thing. Let's go to our next question. And this is one, as you know, Muhe, from time to time, I take the person's name off because I'm afraid they're gonna be unmasked and I don't wanna cause problems. So the question is this, I am a CEO and have seen a development officer from another nonprofit do amazing things in our community. Do you have any hints on how I might persuade them to join our organization? Yes, I'm talking about poaching talent. I love that they put it right out there. Yeah, I mean, if we're putting it all out there, offer them more money, offer them more benefits, pay them what they're worth. So there's nothing wrong with that. I think you reaching out to another development person would show them that you appreciate the work and value them as a professional. And I think that people should always keep the door open when it comes to learning about other organizations, how they might be fit. Maybe they're looking for their next managerial experience and they haven't had that yet, but your organization can provide that. So I think it's always nice to keep the door open with these types of things. Yeah, I think it's good. And I also think, name withheld, reaching out to somebody who you think might be a good fit, chances are they're in a cohort. I mean, like if you like them and you like their behavior, chances are they are surrounding themselves and they use the word cohort, but they're attracted to like-minded people. So maybe it's not them, but maybe they will have a lead for you, right? You know, I mean, you have to think about that. I always think about my dear grandmother, Patrick, who I, in college, before I met my husband, I was like complaining about men. And she said, look, sister, you have to tell three people a week that you wanna date and that you're looking because no one's gonna know. And I always thought that was like hilarious, but you know what, it's kind of good advice. We do need to speak up. We need, not just about dating movie, because now that you're an engaged man, we're talking about that. But you know what I'm saying? Like just to put it out there, to say, hey, everybody, in your case, I just moved to Tampa and I'm looking to build a new network. And so I'm an expert in the field of nonprofit, fund development and nonprofit management. If you know anybody who might be a good contact, let me know. I think that's kind of how we build these things. And so name with health, coaching talent, good luck, but you know, there's ways to keep going about it. And don't stop just because it's one person. I would say keep going and see what you can come up with. I mean, we know that this is a challenging time for talent and finding the right talent. And so I think it's all hands on deck when we come to this. Okay, well, let's go to our next question because this is an interesting question, Muhi. We've had this from time to time. It comes to us from Sam in Chicago, Illinois. And the question is, do you think that someone who comes from the programming side of a nonprofit can ever move to fundraising and be successful? Our leadership team is having a major discussion about this and we are about split on the answer. It's really interesting because you're good at one thing. Are you gonna be good at something else? I think having the knowledge and the details and the understanding of the efficiency and the strengths of the programs is oftentimes what makes a fundraiser successful. So already having somebody with that skill set and understanding of how things work on the programmatic side, if they can feel comfortable building relationships, maybe somebody who's on the programming side is an extroverted personality. And not even that you need to be extroverted to be a successful fundraiser, but more in the sense that feeling comfortable with building relationships, being more of a spokesperson for the organization. I think it's more about personality than it is about experience. They often say a salesperson can easily move into a fundraising role, but I've seen salespeople be terrible fundraisers and vice versa. So I think that someone can be successful as a fundraiser coming from the programmatic side. And I've seen it in some of my colleagues where they've made a shift internally and they were fantastic as fundraisers and relationship builders. And I think that there are things that take time for people to get used to and understand, but I think that they can be very strong fundraisers for sure. Okay, put up your Tampa Devil Rays catcher's mitt because here comes a curveball. Would you, okay, there you go. You know, I'm in my sixties and one of my big sorrows is I never learned how to do a pop-up slide. It's too late now, but I'm just saying. In my next life, I'm gonna start early so I know how to do a pop-up slide. Okay, but going back, my question is, would you as a fundraiser ever think about bringing somebody from programming to a meeting? So not that it's sealed one, two punch, but that it's like you have that expert to talk. I mean, I ask this question- All the time. You really? Okay, I've asked this question before and people have said, no, it screws up my mojo. I believe as a fundraiser, it's not about me. It's about managing the relationship and what's gonna speak best to the donor, right? Maybe they wanna hear from a CEO. Maybe they wanna hear from the CDO. Maybe they wanna hear from a volunteer, a staff member, a board member, I keep it all open. And definitely from the programmatic side, if a donor has interest in funding a specific program, you better bet that they're gonna hear from a program officer. So it's not the fundraiser show, it's really the donor show and what they want. So forget about my mojo, it's about getting the donor what they want. Okay, so then in, I'm thinking to the cause selling cycle. And for those of you who've been with us, I mean, Mu, he's worked with us on this before. The cause selling cycle is a very structured but logical and natural way to navigate the relationship that you want to create or steward with your donor. And you're thinking about that. At what point would you bring in that talent? Yeah, I think it could be in presentation, it could be in handling objections. And I think that might be a way to introduce other people on your team to the donor. So I think those would probably be the two best fits within the cause selling cycle to introduce a colleague. And now that we're getting back out in the post COVID world, do you think that you're gonna start to see more tours where on-site tours where you would actually have that physical engagement or is that old-school thinking? No, I think it's still very relevant whether it's virtual or in-person, engaging the staff member with the donor. Sometimes it's even a phone call or a follow-up on email exchange and looping them in. And so many different touch points that can be effective based on the donor's preference. But again, if it's a multi-year pledge and it's going to support programs and it's at a higher level, a major gift, you wanna insert those touch points and give the donor confidence. And I know that as a fundraiser, I'm really a relationship manager. And yes, I can provide as much information but I think it strengthens the relationship with the donor to pull in other advocates who have a strong sense of the programs and other features within the organization who can share their mission moments and why. So I think it goes to further deepening the relationship with the donor and that's what it's all about. I'm fascinated that you put it in that way because I think a lot of times in fundraising, we're like, okay, we got the check. We got the, you know, tick that off. Okay, on to the next. But I really loved what you had to say about navigating that through and it's not just about bringing that talent or that mission moment witness and then letting it going on to the next thing because that's not such a smart thing. You know, really interesting. So Sam, I hope that that happens for you and that you are able to bring that talent into the discussion and not being so siloed in allowing that talent to change because maybe it goes the other way too. Maybe you find somebody from fundraising who wants to navigate into programming. You never know, but it seems to me like I hear more about folks that are in programming navigating forward. I want to, before we move on to our next question because this kind of is something that happened to me personally and I want to get your take on it. So I have a sister who is a special education professional. She is highly educated, is on the end of her career, has been an award-winning teacher predominantly working with students with autism. And she asked me to attend a fundraising event for a child-centric program who she feels is a really strong program and she knows their work and has seen this organization grow. And it was a gala event this past Saturday. So I said, great, no problem. I've been on the River Chicken Circuit my whole life. Let's see, let's support them, yada, yada, yada. So she's like, great. She said they're using a new app and our tickets and everything are in it and we can go log on early and check in early and even make a donation and take care of that for the event or we can wait for a paddle race. I'm like, great, so we go in and she does the app and it's all great. We go in, it's lovely, it's an amazing event. And then towards the end of the event where there's a paddle race, her name came up on this big screen. Now this was at a professional performance auditorium. So it wasn't just like a little screen. It was a stage, right? And my sister's name is Jamie and it was like, thank you, Jamie Patrick for being a sponsor and it was huge. And I was like, wow, Jamie, that's amazing. They know your work and they're honoring you and she's like, oh yeah, okay, that's weird. And then they started the paddle race, they brought her name up, they didn't bring her up but they kept on this screen saying, Jamie Patrick, thank you so much for being a big sponsor. And then another, so we're into this for like 10 minutes and then a screen comes up and it says, thank you, Jamie Patrick for your $250,000 donation. Whoa. Well, she had made a donation of $250 on this new app. And obviously it was a mistake. I got to laughing hysterically because I thought it was one of the funniest things I'd ever seen and she was like, will you stop laughing? And I was like, sister, this is hilarious. But, so we had to wait because we were kind of, you know, we didn't want to get up in the middle of the whole thing and say, no, it was only $250 but moohy. So I'll finish the story. We went to the check-in desk and I said, my sister made a $250 donation by pressing a button on her phone and it registered as $250,000. And they're like, oh gosh, that's terrible. Okay, no problem, corrected it $250. Two things happened. Well, you know, my sister was just butt-side herself. I'm like, don't worry about, we'll fix this, right? You know, because this is the world I live in. I mean, I'm like, you know, you're good to go. But two things happened. This app had a thermometer on the screen the whole time. And I said, do not do this until your event is over because it'll strip out $250,000 immediately. And a thousand people sitting in this auditorium will wonder what the heck happened, right? And so we don't want to impinge upon the goodwill and the excitement that's going forward. And then, and they're like, okay, that's generous. We'll do that. But Moohi, this is the thing. All that staff, all those people, they had their iPads, they had their phones. They knew what was coming in before the event. And nobody was standing out there waiting for Jamie Patrick. Nobody was like, Jamie, who is this woman? We don't know who she is, right? How did we get a quarter of a million dollar donation? Nobody looked at the stewardship of that. Or to say that it was an error. Interesting. So I wanted to share that crazy story with you because I wanted to know what you thought and if you could kind of shed any light. Yeah, I think your insight is spot on. Like somebody who was managing the event and working with the technology should have caught that before the event, seeing, oh my God, we've already raised quarter of a million dollars. This is awesome. At least for one person. Yeah, yeah. So I think exactly that. Whoever the event manager was or development person in charge of the technology, working with them should have communicated that with the organization and had some plan of action for welcoming your sister in and all of that. So these errors often happen and that's why it's good to check before, during and after what the status is of these certain technologies and capabilities and really learning the ins and outs. And maybe this organization had a consultant managing the back end of things and didn't communicate that with the team to prep them. So there could have been some sort of miscommunication and opportunity there, but definitely really interesting to see what their overall goal was, where this landed them, how they utilize the information before the event, during the event, after the event. Yeah. Well, and it's fascinating to me because if I were a person and there were some heavy hitters there, so it was possible. When they did the paddle call, there were two $100,000 paddle races just on the 100,000. And so they went over a million dollars, well over a million dollars in that short 30 minute period on which we know, you and I know, that those probably were not a shock, that they knew that those were gonna come in. So it was a little theater, a little orchestration, a little public rah-rah, which is fine. But what's fascinating to me is that if they thought that it was an error, okay, they would have addressed it. But more importantly, if they didn't think it was an error, that's a missed opportunity for stewardship, right? Of course, yeah. I mean, absolutely a fascinating story. Of course, it has provided me with a tremendous amount of love and humor and I've really enjoyed it pestering my sister over this. So I just had to like bring that up because it was quite a fun thing. But I did know you, I knew you were coming on today and I really wanted to kind of launch into that a little bit and see what your thoughts were. We, my friend, have time for one more question. And knowing that now you have a fiance in fine arts, this question is a hoot because I can't wait to- It was meant to be. It was meant to be. And it comes from name withheld, city withheld. And again, because our arts organizations are very small and it's easy to figure out who these people are across the country. The question goes like this. We want to hire a new CEO for our arts and culture organization. There's some on the search committee who feels strongly that only someone from the arts and culture sector should be considered. What do you advise? Yeah, I think keeping it an ultimatum as only is limiting. I think as long as there are candidates within the arts and culture sector and there are candidates from outside, maybe they have a really strong translatable skill set and acknowledgement. Maybe they worked in the health or education sector but are really strong suited to be a CEO. And maybe they've been a CEO of a past organization and they're looking for that sector transition in their own career to be more versatile down the road. So I think limiting it to only arts and culture is a hindrance. You're not doing your service to your organization but at the end of the day, you always want the strongest candidate. So if you do interview candidates from within and outside of the arts and culture sector, I think you'll have a stronger pool of candidates. So I've been passed up for development roles because I didn't have arts and culture experience but I think that I still would have had a lot to offer the organization as somebody who is a strong development leader. So I can see it going both ways. Well, I think in the arts and culture space, oftentimes we have two roles. We have that artistic director who does programming and does the artistic work. And then we have the CEO and they do the nuts and bolts of operational management. And so I think that's a really big thing. Now that's two big egos, that's two big salaries and that's two big office spaces and it's not always an easy thing. To find a GM, general manager who can run an organization artistically and creatively doesn't always work on the business side. So you kind of kind of figure out where you are within that structure of that organization because it's a lot of, it's different skill sets big time but I feel like you need that CEO piece to your point movie to kind of structure the organization, keep it on track, know the business aspect and then let that creative work on the programming. And maybe the organization should choose between like somebody who has been a CEO before but not in an arts and culture organization or somebody who's never been a CEO but really strong program manager, really strong operations but never been a CEO, right? What would they do in that scenario then? That's a good, yeah, I love that because that is totally different. And so yeah, very interesting questions this week. Thank you so much for being a part of this. Muji Kuwaja, MPA CFRM trainer at Fundraising Academy and the co-founder of the American Muslim Community Foundation. Really you have a varied career and a storied career and it's really a cool thing to get your opinion and your insight as to all things nonprofit and how they work. My pleasure, thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, we always love having you here, Muji and it's great, it's like a family. We don't always have to agree but we have to be respectful. So that's what I think I love about Fridays is that we always get different opinions and they're not always expected. So again, we have amazing partners with us, Bloom Rang, American nonprofit academy, your part-time controller, nonprofit thought leader, fundraising academy at National University, staffing boutique, nonprofit nerd and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out so we can have these amazing conversations like we've had today with Muji Kwaja, coming to us from Tampa, Florida and newly affianced. How cool is that? Thank you, I'm excited. Yeah, you should be, that's a good thing. That's proof that there's goodness in the world and things keep moving forward. So I appreciate that. Hey everybody, as we end every episode of the nonprofit show, we end with this reminder and that is to stay well, so you can do well. We'll see you back here on Monday. Muji, thank you so much.