 This week on The Anxious Truth, we're talking about EMDR. EMDR is a type of therapy that's gotten very popular over the past couple of years. There's a lot of confusion around it, so let's address that today. Hello everybody, welcome back to The Anxious Truth. This is episode 269 of the podcast. We are recording in August of 2023 for those of you who are listening or watching in the future. I am Drew Lincellotta, creator and host of this podcast. The Anxious Truth is the podcast that covers all things anxiety, anxiety disorders, and anxiety recovery. So if you're struggling with things like panic attacks, agoraphobia, or health anxiety, or OCD, this is the place for you, and I'm happy that you're here. If you have just stumbled upon this YouTube channel or this podcast, and this is the first time you're here, I hope you find what we're doing useful in some way, and I hope you come back. If you are a returning viewer or listener, as always, welcome back, thank you for your continued support and attention, I appreciate it. And let's try to be helpful again this week like we try to be every week. This week we're gonna talk about EMDR. EMDR is a therapy that we hear a lot about, especially in the past few years. It's become more and more popular. It has tremendous application in what it was initially designed for, which was trauma recovery. There's a lot of really good evidence piling up in terms of how excellent it is a tool in that context. But there is a lot of confusion over whether or not it belongs or can be useful in the context of anxiety disorders like panic disorder, or agoraphobia, or OCD and health anxiety. Does it belong here? And if so, how would it be applied? And does it fix you without having to do the hard, scary things that nobody really wants to do? And I don't blame you for not wanting to do those. So I reached out to my therapist friend Anne Thomas and practices in Florida. She is trained by Andrea in the use of EMDR. She's using it in her clinical practice. She is a relatively new therapist. She's about a year and a half or two years ahead of me on this curve. But she does not have an agenda, and I trust her. So there are a ton of people who wanna come on this podcast and talk about EMDR, but every one of them has something to sell. Anne does not. She is a practicing therapist. If you're in Florida, I will give you ways at the end of the show to get in touch with her. Maybe she can be helpful to you, that would be great. But otherwise, Anne does not have an agenda one way or the other. She speaks my language. I trust what she says. She's a great therapist. And I asked her to come on and talk about EMDR and how she might apply it and not apply it in cases of anxiety disorders and how to have realistic expectations of where it might fit. And I think you're gonna find this conversation really interesting and helpful. I know I did. I learned a whole lot about this, and I learned about how EMDR could potentially be one tool in the toolkit as we address things like agoraphobia, for instance, in specific parts of recovery. So I will get Anne on in a minute. Before we do that, I just have a quick reminder. The anxious truth is more than just this video or this podcast episode. There's a ton of other goodies, many of which are free, some of which are not, but nonetheless, hopefully at low cost, like courses, workshops, and the three books I've written on anxiety and anxiety recovery. You can find all of that stuff at theanxistruth.com. That's my website. Go check it out and take advantage of all the things that I have to offer because I think it's all helpful. At least people tell me it is. So let's get Anne on. I will come back at the end of the interview to wrap up as always. I will give you links on where you can find Anne on social media and get in touch with her. So I hope you find it helpful. Let's go. Hey, Anne, what's going on? How are you? I'm good, I'm good. As promised, this is my friend Anne Thomas from sunny Florida who is a practicing, new but practicing EMDR specialist or EMDR therapist. And I trust Anne and knows what she's talking about. And I invited Anne here because she does not have a hidden agenda. There's no courses, there's no workshops, there's no coaching, there's no book about EMDR. It's just the training and the way you've been using it in your practice. Yes. Thank you for coming, I appreciate it. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, so this is, EMDR is a hot topic in our community because there are so many mixed messages. We were talking a little bit before we went on the air and I think it's confusing for a lot of people. I have always seen EMDR represented primarily as a trauma resolution modality where it sort of helps people relive some of those experiences without getting too carried away, stay in the here and now, turn flashbacks and reoccurrences into memories, that sort of stuff. And I hear great things about it, it seems incredibly effective. But I also have people every day who are told that EMDR is also used to treat things like OCD, agoraphobia, health anxiety and panic disorder. And many times they find great success with EMDR going over and dealing with some past issues more on an emotional level than anything else, but they do not get help with their anxiety disorder. And then they get frustrated, sometimes they feel like they did it wrong or they're totally did it wrong. We have wide varieties and patients or clients and expectations and clinicians and approaches. So what the hell, what should we do with all that? Yeah, I mean, you're exactly right. It was initially created to help with PTSD symptomology. And then along the way, they started kind of developing it more to treat other psychiatric disorders, other somatic issues as well. It really rests on this adaptive information processing system and how our brain has a natural capacity to be able to heal itself essentially through bilateral stimulation. And of course, like you and I talked, there's some questions about how we can get it working with panic disorder and other anxiety disorders. Sure, sure. So the big concern generally is, and I cannot draw valid conclusions from feedback even with thousands of people, but it is significant feedback nonetheless. And that's why I reached out to Ann to talk about this because there was a discussion I was involved with on Friday with a fair number of people where this came up again. Like, oh, I tried EMDR and it didn't help at all. I feel like I spent money on nothing. And other people who said, oh, it really helped me with some other issues in my life. I loved it, but it didn't help me with my agoraphobia, for instance. And there's such a wide variety, but a lot of people are seeing it as this might be a way for me to go into a therapist's office, move my eyes back and forth and not have to do exposures and I'll be fixed. Is that realistic in your eyes? No pressure. No pressure. So if a client is coming to us with panic, right? We want to figure out what that belief is about this person's panic. This person might have this belief that I can't handle it. I'm not safe. I'm worthless. I'm weak. I'm broken. We want to be able to go into that negative belief using that bilateral stimulation and help them to strengthen the opposite positive belief. And we wanna make sure that those beliefs are accurate. So somebody who comes in with this belief of I'm weak, that's the negative belief. We want the opposite belief to be the opposite. We don't want it to be like, oh, okay, I can be relaxed. So we want to essentially locate this negative belief that this person experiencing panic has. I'll use the one that I talked about before. I'm weak. Or, and I know what let's use, I can't handle. I can't handle it. That's almost universal, right? All right, I can't handle this. Okay, so let's talk about how, so then this kind of, there's a whole preparation phase to even beginning EMDR, right? So first we identify this image. Okay, tell me the worst part of this previous thing that you experienced. Oh, well, it was when I noticed my heart rate shoot up. I noticed this feeling in my throat. I felt shaky. That was the worst part. Okay, so what is, how distressing? Zero to 10. They give you, oh my God, it was a 10. It was so, and I'm feeling it as a 10 right now. I'm totally distressed. I don't even wanna think about it. Okay, what's the negative belief? I can't handle it. I don't know if that was you or me. That was me, sorry. So then, okay, what emotions are coming up for you right now? Oh, I feel fearful. I feel disgusted with myself. I feel, you know, incapable. Dare I say that? I don't know. Okay, and what physical sensations are coming up for you? So you kind of have them go into a little bit of exposure when they're in their room with you. Sure. Or when they're in the room with you. Okay, let's focus on that feeling in your gut that's making you feel like nauseous or whatever. And then you have them identify how strongly the opposite positive belief is. How strong does I can handle it feel to you? It feels like a two. Yeah, probably one for most people right now. Okay, so I want you to hold that negative image of you experiencing this sudden burst of adrenaline. And I want you to hold that negative image in your head of I can't handle it. And I want you to follow this bilateral stimulation. And there's different methods of bilateral stimulation. So what I have seen in my clinical practice is that that belief of I can't handle it slowly transitions and slowly transitions and slowly transitions and transitions. And it gets lighter and lighter for the client and they start to gain a little bit more confidence. And it's not realistic that we will close a target in one session, especially for an adult because adults have so many additional feeder memories. Oh, well, this reminds me of another time when I was panicked and I, you know, smelled too much weed or whatever. Yeah. So it becomes very tricky and very sticky. And so when a client is searching for a practitioner to help with panic disorder, we wanna ensure that the practitioner is going through all of the steps that are necessary for EMDR to even implement it. Cause you can't just do it on the first session. It takes a whole, there's treatment planning, there's resourcing, there's a lot of stuff that needs to be done. Yeah. So then what we see is that the person then is more desensitized to these feelings. And then we install the positive belief, okay, I can handle it. Okay, so now I want you to hold that first image of when you started panicking and I want you to hold the positive words together. I can handle it. And I want your eyes to follow the bar or listen to the sound or the tapping or whatever. And so as clinicians, we are supposed to listen and make sure that the things that the client is saying are valid and that the positive cognitions feel strong enough. And if we look for a number, okay, well, how true does I can handle it feel now? Still feels like a two. Okay, all right, so we keep, we keep going. But then we even have to check in on that distress. How strongly, how strongly that 10 is still feeling. Okay, why is that 10 still a 10? Why hasn't that 10 gone down? Then we address the blocking belief. Oh, because I feel like I'll never get over this problem. This problem brings me shame. So there's a whole bunch that goes into it. I feel like I just took your question and just went off in the left field. No, this is really good. I think it's really good information to people to have. So they have an expectation of what it's gonna look like, I guess. I think one of the things that we're up, and we talked about this a little bit. There are so many different expectations for somebody who's struggling. We can both understand why you're really hoping that this is a thing where you go into the therapist's office, tap your shoulders, look at a light bar and don't, and boom, your panic stops and you're not afraid anymore. We get that, you have a right to want that. Everybody wants that, that's just human nature. And I think so, sometimes it's the expectation. So I love the way you're describing it and explaining it because it's not that. You're talking about a lot of work here. This is not a show-off, look at a light bar and suddenly you don't panic anymore. It's not that at all. Absolutely, and you and I both have, we've touched on before this, it's not the end-all-be-yall. And you're absolutely right. There is still a level of work that has to be put in. You have to be willing to sit in that clinical session and kind of notice those feelings and have faith in yourself that you're safe and that, yeah, so you're right. So how does that go from that clinical session in that place where hopefully you're with a therapist or a clinician you trust, which is great? Now it goes into the real world. So we were going over some real world things that people had relayed to me. So I went back to that spot where I had my first panic attack that I've been avoiding for three years. I went and I panicked and I ran and square one and it didn't work and I'm broken. And in some cases there's some conflict arises with the clinician because the person is hears. I'm not sure that they're necessarily told, I can only tell you what they interpreted, which was, I'm doing it wrong or clearly there's a deeper hidden trauma or memory or pain or belief that we haven't uncovered yet. But if we can get to that, they start to hang on again to the belief that like, oh, if I just keep going to these sessions and digging and digging and asking more questions that I will go and I won't panic and I won't be afraid. I'll be a regular person again without having to do any work in the actual world. Does that sound, again, no pressure here, but that's the expectation I think. I would agree that that could be a part of the expectation and that is why the, okay, so like full disclosure in our therapy sessions we have to say like, hey, this, you have to get that informed consent. Right, this might not work. Sure, yeah. But I think that this blocking, I use the blocking belief questionnaire a lot because the client will say things like, oh, it still hasn't gone all the way down. Okay, what is keeping it from going all the way down? I don't know, fear because I fear that it's gonna come back or... Well, what if I said, can I interrupt? What if I'm a client and I say, well, the fear itself, the feeling itself, it didn't go down, it was still there. Okay, what does that fear then say about you? What does it mean to be in fear? What does fear mean? I know I'm safe, I know that it can't hurt me, but in the moment I'm so afraid and it feels so real, it just all goes out the window and I just, I have to run or I had to call my significant other, I had to call my safe person, it goes out the window. So that feels like you have no power over your ability to like stay where you are or like, what are you, help me, help me. Yeah, I know what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to stick with it and ride through it and learn that it doesn't hurt me, but it just seems impossible to do that. I get it when I'm sitting here with you, but it's impossible when I actually have to do it. I don't know how to do it. How do I do it? How do I sit through it? See, that's where that future template that I was talking about. Okay, let's picture yourself going over and being successful in this future spot where you feel that is impossible. Let's just imagine and use the bilateral simulation to imagine you accomplishing this and conquering this. Okay. Let's do that and then we do the bilateral simulation and then we get Brenda involved. Ann named her EMDR light bar Brenda and I could not love that anymore. Just saying. So here's where, and by the way, for the record and Ann is a friend of mine and I trust her and this is why I asked her to come on and talk about this. I'm not putting Ann on trial or EMDR on trial. It is good stuff in the right context. I believe that already. And I love how you can use it to maybe address some of those limiting beliefs. I'm weak, I can't handle these things, I can't possibly do that. I love that you can use it to help those obstacles. But what I am kind of hearing, if I put myself into 2008 Drew and I'm sitting and you're my therapist, I hear you telling me that if I spend enough time with a light bar and bilateral stimulation, it will fix me and I won't have to worry about what happens in the real world because I will somehow magically come to believe that I'm okay with this panic. So then I hear. I'll never see it again. Okay, this is good, this is good. You are, that you believe that you are broken. No, I know I'm not broken. I get it, I understand the theory. I've read all the books. I've listened to all the podcasts. But when I'm in the real world, I'm afraid and I don't know how to not be afraid. I don't know how to sit through that. And are you telling me that if I just keep looking at Brenda the light bar, I won't be afraid anymore and I won't have to do that? But it doesn't take away the fear, right? It desensitizes it a little bit, it dampens it. So the fear is still there. However, we want that positive cognition and that belief to feel stronger than the negative belief, yeah? Yeah, you see how realistic this is. This is why I love these conversations sometimes. And I hope that it's easy for you guys to follow if you're listening or watching. This can be confusing and these are, there's no black or white, black and white answer to this. But what you just described seems so accessible now as somebody who might have a gorophobia panic disorder. I don't know if we would use it with OCD, health anxiety, whatever. That positive cognition, at least we're gonna give it a better chance. We're gonna give it a leg up. We're gonna give that positive belief a little bit of a leg up and we're gonna try and bring the negative belief down a little bit to give you a more of a fighting chance to work through that in the real world. I like that you just put that to a point. Does that sound like, and again, you're the trained one, I am not. I'm gonna keep telling you that. But in the end, that seems like a more realistic expectation. If you're struggling with panic disorder and people keep telling you to try MDR, that seems a little bit more realistic. Oh yeah, it's a tool we can bring into the process. Doesn't fix you looking at a life bar isn't gonna fix you, but it might help you do these hard things. Yes. Am I being accurate here? You can tell me I'm not. I'm all right with that. And also, I don't know, remember I brought up the Disney, the metaphor, what the heck was it, was the elephants? I have to go back and look through our text messages. Yeah. Something like that, but it's essentially a person, but I read this analogy and it made perfect sense to me. But it was like Dumbo, you know, Dumbo doesn't think he can fly and then he has this like magic feather and then all of a sudden the magic feather goes away and he realizes, oh, I can fly. Like I can do this on my own. Yep. The life bar's the magic feather. Yeah, there you go. So it can help with the belief, because I am 100% on board with the idea that those beliefs can be big obstacles. Nope, I'm not, and I hear it all the time. Well, you're strong Drew, you did it. You're strong, I'm not strong. You're brave, I'm not brave. Like no, no, I was scared too, like we're all scared. Yeah, so I love that, I love that. That seems like a really good use of this tool. And again, I'm not here to, you don't need my validation, I'm not here to give my stamp of approval on EMDR. Just trying to help people work through how it would fit into this problem. Well, you have such an art where you are able to put things into such plain words where I'm like fumbling for the clinical ways to put things, and you can just articulate yourself so much better than I can. Oh, no, you're doing fine, I think you're doing great. But yes, exactly how you put it, it is this tool, it's a tool, right? Yeah, okay, unfortunately, and again, I know I always sound like a broken record, like there's real world hard work to do, maybe this would make it a little less hard, and if it did, that would be great. But so maybe the big controversy, at least in my community, I won't say ours, it's a large community, maybe it's indicative or representative, the confusion or the debate over EMDR, because whenever EMDR comes up in my world, I get one or two things. Either I don't even know what that is, which is fair. And will it fix me? Okay, that's fair too, second part. Or I get, well, I did it and it really helped me with some things, I loved it, I had a great therapist, it was really excellent, but it didn't really help me with my panic attacks or my OCD or my or agoraphobia, for instance. Or I did it and it did nothing and I feel like I was taken advantage of and made to believe that I was doing it wrong. And you know, listen, there are bad clinicians, there's bad people in every profession. So those are the three things that I hear that I don't know what it is, it was helpful but not for this, or it didn't help me at all. So I guess if nothing were to try to clarify maybe expectations or what it might be. Well, I was kind of gonna go into ensuring that the clinician is... Oh yeah, the training, let's talk about that. Following protocols, yeah. So EMDR has steps to it, right? There's, we, I don't, I never get into EMDR in a first session, sometimes not even by a third session because there's so much treatment planning that goes into it. There's informed consent, you have to explain what the EMDR is, you have to explain the model, you have to explain the mechanics, you have to go through the phases, you know, client history preparation, preparation phase includes like that calm safe place that you and I, I don't know if we talked about that. Yeah, I was off camera, but yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So there's a lot that goes into it. People want to ensure that their clinician is Emdria trained. They are the leader of EMDR, right? That provides the training. There's consultation hours that have to be met, it has to be practiced, you have to document it and bring it back to the EMDR consult person. There's so much that goes into it. So they want to make sure that the person is EMDR trained. I have also heard about EMDR stories. And we want to make sure that there's, that the clinician is resourcing, that the clinician is accurately aiding the client and identifying the belief. I think I talked about that. So there's so much that goes into it. I encourage your followers to ensure that their person is Emdria trained. Emdria is. Because a little bit of people. EMDRIA, right? Yes, yes. I'll put a link in the show notes for this. Yes, and people will also think that just because they are trained in EMDR is that they are certified. I am not certified in EMDR. That's a whole other additional certificate. That's a whole other thing. I am trained in it. So I can say that, I can practice it. Yeah. And this is not, this was not like a three-day weekend where you went to the Marriott and learned. It was months, months and months. Month, it was four months. It was intensive. There was consultation hours. There was so much practice. And we had to practice using our arms in session. You can't see my arm, but we had to sit there and go for it. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see Ann's arm. Or this. She's miming a light bar. It's very good. Yeah. Awesome, okay. So this makes a lot of sense. And I think like anything else, this is the thing we were talking about before we hit the record button, always beware of this fixes everything. Right? So that's something I say all the time. Like I'm a big fan of things like act, but act is inappropriate in every circumstance. It's just not. We would never push any kind of modality or treatment for every possible thing. So just beware of like, this is a panacea, it fixes everything. We're gonna apply it to everything. That's all. You know. Yeah. And you know, being an educated consumer and knowing as much as you can know about what you're getting into is always a good thing. And having realistic expectations. Absolutely. Yeah. We haven't come up with a thing yet. I love how you talk about informed consent as a really important part of being in a condition because especially with EMDR, you are going to elicit some distress in that room. And people have a right to know. Like you're gonna feel bad here when we do this. And we like to use the analogy of like a car going up a hill, right? So like, if you're feeling the distress and the car is going up the hill, we don't wanna stop, right? And we wanna keep going. We wanna keep going. We wanna keep going. We wanna go through it. That's kind of how I like to explain EMDR in my sessions as well. Like you're gonna feel some stuff, but we gotta push, we gotta go. Very good. What else you got? Anything else you wanna add about EMDR while we're on it? We're only about 20 minutes in, but that's great. Cause I think we did a good job so far. Listen to me pump up my podcast. I didn't touch on the blocking beliefs. I pulled it up. We were in the middle of kind of getting ready to catch it, but some of them, I'm trying to see what is on here that could potentially be a blocking belief that somebody who has panic disorder might have. One, I am embarrassed that I have this problem. Ooh, good. That's a good one. Yeah. I'm not sure, well, I will never get over this problem. Oh, that one every day. Every single day. What if I never get better? Oh yes, absolutely. Let me see. I say I want to solve this problem, but I never do. Yeah, that's another one. Someone in my life hates this problem. Okay. Problem is bigger than I am. I don't deserve to get over this problem. That's another one that people don't talk about enough. I've had this problem for so long I could never completely solve it. It's too late. Yep. Yeah, yeah. So there are some ones there that definitely pertain to... Those are so accurate. I mean, again, I've had the privilege of hearing from thousands of people. So that tells me that these are blocking beliefs that would be targeted directly toward panic disorder, for instance. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, like if the client were to come in, I would be experiencing panic. I would be like, okay, there's a block here. Let's figure it out. And it's always a collaborative effort, right? You never want to shame the client. Be like, what is it that you're doing wrong here? Sure, sure. Do any of you seem accurate to you? Yeah, they all, every one of those. Listen, what I love about that, and I've never heard of this before, right? So I don't know enough about EMDR. You're teaching me here, which is great. Those blocking beliefs, so now I'm a client with panic disorder. I'm struggling to make some progress. And now you're going to look for blocking beliefs that have been manualized in a way as part of EMDR. Look for these blocking beliefs if you're dealing with a client with panic disorder. Whoever wrote that clearly knows people with panic disorder. Those were dead on accurate. I don't deserve to get better. It's been too long, so therefore I can't get better now. I have nobody, nobody believes in me and they hate this and I'm ruining everybody's life with this. Or I'm just too weak, I can't do it and what if I never get better? Those every single day, every day, hear them every day. And you can now, I'm sure you're already like aware that those are ones that you hear all the time, but you can, being, you're going to be a clinician here soon, you can even use that. Without having EMDR, just to even assess the belief itself without wanting to use EMDR. But that was written by Jim Nipe. Dr. Jim Nipe, PhD, he wrote the EMDR toolbox, I think is what it's called. And it's a lot of interventions. They suggest to have one intervention and then implement it and get really good at implementing it and implementing it. And then implement it. Which makes sense. It seems like such a sensible. That's so sensible, that's crazy talk. But, and again, I think keep in mind if this is a thing you want to, you listening to the podcast or watching on YouTube today and you wanted to look into this or maybe you're working with a clinician that's offered EMDR as an option. Just understand again, like that would be a great way to maybe address some of those underlying beliefs. And I've talked about it in podcast episodes. Josh and I have talked about it on Disordered. Maybe that's a way to help you start to tear down those underlying beliefs. That's great. I love that. Because identifying them is the first thing, noticing that they're there. Oh, I'm noticing what I'm having. But just be careful about hoping that someone like Ann will shine Brenda the light bar at you for 30 minutes and suddenly you think you're a superman and you're all good to go and everything is fixed. It doesn't work that way. Unfortunately. The client is the expert. The client is the captain. I'm the co-captain. I'm here to help just a little bit. And Herschel is also here to help just a little bit. Oh, it's Herschel the therapy dog. Herschel's awesome. He comes to work with you. He is an actual therapy dog, right? He is. He is. He is a registered therapy dog. He's an online therapy dog. Herschel even has his own page on Ann's practice. It's not Ann's practice, but the practice she works in. They even have Herschel has her own page his own page in the bios, staff bios. Anyway, thank you so much, my friend. This was really good. We were struggling to see how we were going to talk about this. And I appreciate you did a great job. Likewise. And yeah, I'm here for it. Very good. So I will come back as always in the end. And by the way, Ann Thomas, how you are sit with Ann on Instagram. But if you want to find Ann or whatever, I will put her in the show notes. If you're watching on YouTube, I'll put Ann's links on the description. If you're listening to the podcast, just go to theanxestreet.com slash 269 and I'll put all the links. We talked about Andrea. I'll send you over to Ann. So you can check her out on Instagram. If you have questions, put them in the YouTube comments. We'll all drag Ann back in. We'll try to answer them if we can. We'll push it out some more. I'll come back as I usually you to wrap it up. But thank you so much. You're welcome back here anytime. Thank you, Drew. All right, see you later. Alrighty, we are back in the studio. I'm never gonna get tired of making that joke because the studio was just me at the same desk, just without Ann next to me. And anyway, just here to wrap it up as I usually do. I really enjoy doing that interview. I am very thankful for Ann for taking the time. That was short notice too. We figured that we decided to do this this morning. So I'm grateful for her time and being so flexible and helping us out with this. I learned a lot about EMDR today. And I actually am surprised to find that I can see where it may have as we talked about in the interview, some applications in some parts of recovery in the problems that we are always addressing together. As always, I appreciate that Ann brought a common sense approach to this without over-promising or declaring that EMDR is a fix or treats everything. And I think that's the most important part here. I do like how she talked about making sure that your clinician is properly trained and that they are using the tool correctly. That was really great. Again, not over-promising. And again, she didn't have an agenda, which is why I asked her on here. So I got stuff out of this. And maybe if you're hoping that EMDR might work for you in some way in your recovery, hopefully you got something out of this too. That's why we do this. Anyway, that's about it. That is episode 269 of the Anxious Truth in the books. Of course, if you wanna get to Ann, you can find her on Instagram. She is sitwithann, a-n-e, that's all one word. I will put her links in the description of this video. If you're on YouTube, I will put them in the show notes for this podcast episode. You go to the anxioustruth.com slash 269. So if you wanna reach out to Ann and follow her on social, you welcome to do that. She's really good. And that is it. I'm going to ask you the same favors that I ask you every week. You're probably tired of them at this point. That would be if you are listening to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or some platform that lets you rate or review the podcast, why not leave a five-star rating if you really like it? And if you really like it, maybe take a second and write a review because that helps even more people find this podcast and then more people get help. Of course, if you're watching on YouTube, like the video, hit the notification bell, subscribe to the channel, leave a comment or a question. I will drag Ann back in here to answer questions if we can down the road. And yeah, that's it. We'll be back next week with another podcast episode. Not sure what I'm gonna talk about next week, but I will be here and just remember that no matter how small the step is that you take toward your recovery today, no matter how insignificant you may think it is, it counts. They all count and they add up. See you next week. Thanks for coming by.