 Greetings everyone. I'm Nate Angel and I welcome you all to a session that I'm really excited for actually because it has two of my favorite people on Earth in it and we're going to be talking about social annotation in science, technology, engineering and math. Well we may not touch on all those subjects but at least science for sure and many other topics as well. I want to thank you all for coming. I'd like to kind of kick things off by just saying a little bit about these two folks and then I'm going to ask them a very specific question so that you can get to know them a little bit better in my career. So I actually have come to know both of these people best over Twitter, interestingly enough. There's been some face-to-face interaction too but it's actually Twitter where most of our interaction has taken place and I would say that's one of the, it's actually knowing people like this that has been one of the reasons why Twitter has been incredibly important to my professional practice because I get to connect with really fine, finely tuned minds and really humorous folks as well this way. And so I want to formally introduce Clarissa Sorens and Unra who has a kind of wears multiple hats as both an educator and a scholar working at a couple different institutions in New Mexico that you can see there on your screen as well as globally where she works to take over the world like a certain a certain mouse who has plants. That was a reference to Pinky and the Brain. I see that of course they got it. And then Karen Kanjilosi who I have had the pleasure to actually spend some time face-to-face with as well as online who as a scholar and educator working Keen State in New Hampshire as well as globally and I know that one of the things that I kind of remember most about her if I'm not mistaken and to think about often is that she has a pretty intense relationship with spiders and maybe she can say a little bit more of that when we get into it but I'd like to kick things off here if my guests will entertain this by asking you to say a little bit more about what it is that you do day to day as a scholar and educator and then follow that up with how you came to know social annotation and start using it in your practice. So a little bit about you and then a little bit about your relationship to social annotation and I thought I might start with Clarissa who I know as Rissa so I may accidentally call her that sometimes. That's awesome. That's totally fine. You did the big head thing. I'm not sure about that. I can move it back. I'm a little nervous now Nate. Okay. What do I do in the day to day? I teach full time at Central New Mexico Community College. I teach chemistry and statistics and I also am a PhD student in learning sciences hopefully with my dissertation done by summer of next year crossed fingers and I'm also known a fair amount of the time for doing a lot in ungrading which is what my dissertation is actually on. And so it is lovely to be here with you all. My day to day is mostly teaching and reading a lot of journal articles and coming up with ways to think about ungrading that are kind of novel and design based research. And so that's what I spend my time doing. How do I know social annotation? Well, I have no idea how I got to know a social annotation. I was like Twitter. Kind of yeah. Pretty sure it was Twitter. I'm pretty sure it was Remy who with his you know, annotate your syllabus kind of moment. That was awesome. But I use it pretty regularly in classes. I don't use it profoundly in classes but I love every time that I use it or I can take advantage of it. So that's kind of how I and I would love to do more but I don't teach the higher level classes always that would require it. Got it. And that's you know, I think we can let's we'll delve into that more in the conversation today. Let's let's let me pose the same question to Karen then. So what is it that you do day to day as a scholar and educator? And how did you come to know social annotation and start using it in your practice? Okay, well, I mean, it is a big question. And thanks, Nate for inviting me. Currently, I am a program director for the Regional Leaders of Open Education Network, which is a project of the CCC OER, which is the North American Node of OE Global. So that's kind of a lot mouthful. And many of you might if you know me, you know, that I'm also a professor of biology at King State College. And I'm doing this gig as program director for about a year and a half. And maybe longer, we'll see how we'll see how that goes. I'm excited about that. So I certainly came to know social annotation in my teaching practice through being an open education advocate and like doing work in the open, what does it mean to teach in the open? What does it mean for students to be able to learn and create and discover in the open? And so I've used a lot of a hypothesis with my biology students for them being able to engage in conversations with their peers by annotating articles together, and not just their peers in the classroom, but across different classes, and even occasionally bringing experts into the conversation. So it's really kind of a wonderful thing and tool to use. And when I started using annotation with my students and getting them to get hypothesis accounts, they wanted to use it for themselves. So they started creating, well, they would create a bibliography for themselves on their projects. And then they would say, well, let's get into hypothesis and talk about our articles with each other in our own little groups. And if they would invite me into that discussion, as I wanted some feedback, I would hop in and if they didn't need me, I wouldn't. So I love the way that my students sort of came organically to the way that they like to use social annotation in their projects and things like that. So I could talk more specifically about my courses and some of that, but I'll leave it there for now and we'll see what else Nate has in store for us. Okay, great. Yeah, that's so fantastic. I'm curious, Karen, you know, given your the new role that you've taken on, are you able to teach less right now? I mean, are you not teaching as much, I should say? Yeah, I'm definitely teaching less as in probably teaching zero, at least for a little while. Yeah, so this is definitely a full time sort of program director gig, but working. But I would say I'm not actually teaching zero because I'm teaching others that we can think of ourselves as students, right? So faculty development work is also teaching, I often talk about how I take an open pedagogical approach to a group of people, whether it's faculty, staff, administrators, or what we consider traditional students. So I'd like to still think of myself as a teacher and a learner in these contexts. So and maybe we'll even use hypothesis instead of our some of our program development work as we have. And I've done that in all my faculty learning communities, actually one that I ran recently, which is a learning community for STEM through the cubes network. We have this score program, there's a lot of acronyms out there. But I ran an open practices in STEM learning community that went for about six weeks. And we started with annotating a number of articles and continue to do that too. So so yeah, while I'm not teaching traditional aged college students, I still think of myself as a teacher. Yeah, I love that. And I, I, I think it's really, you know, intrinsic to your open pedagogical practices that you don't draw boundaries like that around what is teaching and who is a student who is a learner, we should say, I guess, and so it's great that you're able to take on this new role and yet still probably be everything that's that you had been will you still be bringing spiders into your work? So I am traditionally my my dissertation research was arachnology, behavioral ecology of social spiders. I worked in the Amazon jungle. And so unfortunately, I don't get to do spider research much anymore. But I'm still a member of the American Arachnological Society. I still have colleagues there. And one of the things I'm trying to actually do with the AAS is to help build OER resources for that community. So and just as a hobby, my partner and I love to actually capture flies and throw them into the funnel spider webs that live in the bushes out front. So we just do that for fun. Feeding the spiders, I love that. It's mostly her that wants to do it. I'm like, really, honey? Yeah. We have I live in Portland, Oregon, where I'm calling in from now. And we have quite a few spiders on both inside and outside here. So there's quite a there's quite a lot of activity around around the social the social network of spiders in our house. And we try to treat them with respect. Well, that is that is such exciting news for you. And I love that the dissertations that we have in front of us here include both arachnology, if I'm pronouncing that right. Wow. I'm my my my my Greek is a little little fuzzy and and ungrading, which I think is a really fascinating practice that I believe in my experience really dovetails well with I mean, most of the people I know who are using social annotation and working with social annotation often have an interest in ungrading as well. And so, of course, I wonder if you could maybe help us connect those two kind of worlds of ungrading and social annotation or maybe how you think of them as being connected. Okay, you're starting with the simple and easy questions. Yes, I know. I can just lay out your dissertation for us. Yeah. Okay, let me just make this happen for you. So I think that what happens is what we're starting to see with with ungrading is that folks who are more willing to ungrade and take on that as a as a set of, you know, I mean, ungrading is really a spectrum of, in my mind, liberatory oriented, pedagogical approaches to evaluation, to student evaluation. So that that is like its own kind of thing doesn't really include necessarily annotation, but in in my experience, folks who do formative assessment, who do reflective writing, who do things like social annotation and want folks to think through or kind of critical pedagogue type people tend to also embrace ungrading. And so this makes sense on several levels in terms of thinking about if you think about not just ungrading as a pedagogical practice that falls under like critical pedagogy, but also because it's a seeding of power in terms of intersectionality, you could maybe start thinking about it as also a pedagogy of care. And that's really, I think, the undergirding idea of all of these people who we have as kind of a community of learners, practitioners, whatever, that ungrading folks tend to also be very interested in implementing pedagogies of care and that annotation piece of trying to teach people how to read articles better and more clearly in terms of getting the information that you actually need out of them. It's not that they can't read effectively to begin with, but that you're trying to help them see like this is kind of a skill. Sometimes you need to read this part, but that's only if you need to do this and start to have conversations about what's important and what's not. That all falls under the pedagogies of care. Interesting that you brought up that extra term pedagogy of care, which folks in the audience, please feel free to use the chat if you're unfamiliar with the ungrading and pedagogy of care kind of discourses, for lack of a better term. Feel free to shout out there and there's all sorts of people here who probably will be chiming in and we'll talk about them more on stage. Yeah, I feel like there's a whole sort of critical mass. I see it happening on Twitter at least. Twitter is going to keep coming back into this conversation, we can't help it, but a kind of critical mass coalescing around pedagogies of care that seems to include a lot of these usual suspects, if you will, of different practices. So ungrading, maybe social annotation, OER and open pedagogical kind of practices. We might also add to that list things like renewable assignments, as opposed to disposable assignments, and sort of, you know, people who are focused on learning agency, as opposed to teacher agency, and things like this. And I know you reminded me, Ressa, that this actually isn't your guys's you and Karen's first gig working together to talk about this kind of stuff, because you kind of co-led an experience in another venue if I'm not mistaken. And I'm wondering if you guys want to, do you want to refer back to that conversation a little bit, because it could well be that there's a rich set of resources that people could also explore there. I'm going to have to find it. No, what happened is that I was doing the digital pedagogy lab track on STEM and it was the first time I was ever doing it. And, you know, I'm a PhD student. So I was like, let's have 20 articles for you to read. And people were like, no, you can't do that. So then I was like, okay, let me go ask the experts I know who really understand these ideas to have like a conversation on Zoom about what this is actually encompassing. And Karen was so gracious and actually saying, yes, I will come and talk to you about, what do we even talk about? We are in STEM. I think it was open science, but I think we did critical pedagogy and stuff. That's what we did together. So so I had done critical pedagogy one day, and then we integrated it into STEM. That's, I think that's what it's about. I'll put the video in the chat. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that like for me, like, I like to remind people that open education is part of a whole open ecosystem. And as scientists, like thinking about what is open science and what is open education and how are they integrated? And I talk a lot about how those of us that are science teachers, as we're teaching students like how to do science, why aren't we teaching them how to do science openly? So not just like the open pedagogy of science, but the pedagogy of open science, if that makes sense. And so, you know, there's a lot of things about how science is done and how there can be ways in which it's difficult for people to think about putting all of their data and results and everything out there completely openly. But I think the open science community has definitely made use of annotation in terms of thinking about not just open access publishing, but open review, and how can you use open annotation for giving feedback to each other on every step of the scientific process, not just in the formulation of your manuscripts, but in the development of your methodology for your science. And so, modeling that with my students in my upper level science courses, I feel like it's a good way of saying, hey, you can put your projects out here openly. And people like, yeah, well, they're just students who care about their projects anyway. But in fact, they're kind of getting in the practice of thinking about what does it mean to share data? You know, what does it mean to use open data sets, which is part of this open ecosystem? And how can annotation actually help us think about how we have discussions about all of these things? I love the integration within the open ecosystem and tools that allow us to do that integrative work. And an annotation is one of them for sure. Yeah, that's, I'm so glad that you went in that direction, Karen, because I think we've now, I think I hope that folks here have a little bit of context around some of the things that you guys have done, some of your practices, the way you approach things with a general, a general talk. But if we if we turn back into social annotation a little more specifically now, Jeremy Dean, my colleague at Hypothesis, who I'm sure you know, from Twitter as well, if not in real life, has posed this question, I'm going to throw it up on stage and see if we can, we can even delve a little bit more deeply along that thread that you were that you were beginning Karen. So yeah, it's a straw question. It's a little bit of a softball. But I think Karen, you were already exploring a little bit about why working in the open at any level of kind of moment in your science, in your science scholarship, right, whether you're just a beginning student or, you know, an advanced scholar, working in the open has a kind of purpose and meaning. And so if we even just think about reading, like, how is it that reading is an important practice in the sciences, and then maybe extend that to to where social annotation could maybe help with reading in the sciences. I love this question. I think it's such a great question. And like, we think of reading as a very personal kind of act. But in fact, what is social reading? Because reading is something that we don't always think about something that we teach in in college, right? Like, that's something that you teach younger children to do. But in fact, how do you know, what does it mean to read and actually interpret what you're reading? And like, reflecting what your thoughts are on what you just read is how we sort of think about what good and extensive reading is. And so having that opportunity to read closely means that you're talking about what you read. And if you can do that publicly in like, annotation space, then it becomes a social things because then others are engaging in that reading, we're reading together, we're critiquing together, we're coming to an understanding together, which I think is pretty exciting. I love when I see my students annotating pieces and they'll say, well, I think what you mean is, and somebody else coming in and say, well, actually, the way I took it was, you know, so if you if you read something, and it's only in your head, you're not getting that that benefit there. So that that sort of social socially engaged reading, which is done openly, I think is has really a lot of value. And I'll let I'll let Rissa talk for a while to Oh, okay. Well, all right, then. I think that I think you're exactly right, Karen, I think that kind of reading, but I also find students who like, I mean, reading a science articles, like reading a second language is not always not always in words that are easily understandable, because it has a language into itself. And so sometimes there's some definitions that need to happen. There's sometimes some things that need to be clarified. And certainly, you know, I mean, one of the things that that almost everyone skips in science articles, forgive me if you don't do this, but is the methodology section, because unless you're trying to reproduce that experiment, it is very thick, and it's very like, here's all the things that we did. And this is all the analysis we did. And so, and that's really more results. But you know, you you get a sense of like, I can get bogged down for hours, just trying to understand this methodology stuff. And so I think that trying to help them kind of understand, these are the things that you want to be getting from the articles, not just can you guys talk about them in a general sense, and reflect on them and kind of get a sense of it. There's also a piece of scaffolding of, yeah, like Heather was saying, you want to you want to ask some questions and get some responses, because just because you know how to read doesn't mean you know how to read science articles well or easily, or that it won't take you for freaking ever to make make it happen. And so I think them helping each other is really important there. But in terms of like, I mean, I think this goes for your professional development stuff. I think it also goes for like PhD work, one of the things that you've constantly to do in PhD work is like, you should be annotating and you should be right writing micro notes about what you're doing so that you can come back later and figure that out. And that's something that could be really helpful. I think along those lines, like, as you're taking notes for yourself, and that you know, that's what we traditionally call keeping a lab notebook, you know, when you're an investigator. But but why not make that public and social, you know, and I like having students even interest students, even my first year students in intro biology, like, instead of like keeping your closed lab notebook that nobody else is supposed to look at or copy, right? Like, this is the philosophy behind open. It's like, it's not plagiarism. It's not copying. It's a sharing of ideas. So everybody keep their lab book open and online and out there for others to see. And an easy way to make comments on somebody else's lab notebook, which is basically just a web based thing, is to is to is to do some annotation. So just I think that the tool is really what we're talking about is that it makes it easier to have that kind of conversation and prop provide feedback in these sort of open lab notebook spaces. Well, and I can visualize it being used in like, I mean, it would be awesome if I had my dissertation in iterations, right? Like I had thought about doing this. And then I was like, I don't know, do I do this? I mean, sometimes you just have to do it. But it's also the the, you know, it's my school tied to plagiarism still and whether they're using some kind of, you know, turn it in or whatever. And don't get me started on that. But that kind of piece of if I publish publish it on the web, is it suddenly a published moment? But it would be very cool if we could get past that whole idea of plagiarism and particularly self plagiarism, that if I had the iterations and we could just, you know, talk about it as it's a developmental process, I think that's the piece that I really want to see, like what you were saying with reviewing and all of these pieces, it would have been really helpful to see the other reviewers comments when I was learning how to review. Because I was talking about editing stuff and they were talking about the science. Oh, oh, that's what I'm supposed to be talking about. And they don't share that stuff, right? So that would have been really helpful to know in the process. Yeah, and that's like, I think this whole culture of sort of secrecy, right? And keeping things to yourself. And if you copy somebody helps your plagiarizing is is replicated at higher levels where, you know, I'm not going to put my ideas out there because somebody else is going to scoop them. And what is it that we do and value in the sciences? Is it about creating the individual rock star scientist that goes off and keeps his team up to himself? I'm using no pronouns quite intentionally there. So keep that to themselves. And so that way they just get a lot of recognition or is it about adding knowledge to the world? And I've been reading this up lately, too, like what if there weren't patents on COVID vaccines? You know, right? The development of the vaccine was really, really quick. But in fact, if people shared data and they share their formulas for a lot more vaccine, a lot more quickly, like what does it mean to think about public health and public advancement of science? And so all of that goes back into how do we train our students as scientists to think about what it means to do science as part of a community? And if we if we say you're not copying and plagiarizing, you know, your data set isn't being stolen or scooped, we're actually sharing it and we're looking at it together and we're trying to find its meaning together so that we can actually look at what are those results telling us? And what are the questions that we want to investigate next? And what are the things that we can learn so that we benefit the greatest number of people instead of just trying to do individual or corporate profit? So I'm going to lapse into a speech now. Reach into the choir. It's all good. Hey, that's good. If unless Rissa wanted to follow up with that, I know that Karen might actually have to leave a little bit early and there is a special thing I wanted to get to to that I think actually dovetails really well into the conversation so far and might also take us a little bit more into kind of the pedagogy of using social annotation in these contexts on whether that be with, you know, you know, early students or or doctoral students or people who are already working scientists, right? I mean, learners across the board, right? So if you'll bear with me, I'm actually going to share my screen and bring something up here. If you guys are you guys ready for that? I know it's going to be exciting. So ready. This is going to be great. We have the technology. I know now that I've built it up. Where is it? He's like, I believe in my ability to manipulate the technology. It's fine. Although we just jinxed it, right? So going back to Twitter. Go Heather. Go for a second here and I'm just going to point out that Heather MacCelly, Maccelli, I'm afraid I don't know how to pronounce that either. I'm really bad with the Italian last names, apparently. Maccelli. Rockstar, by the way, she can be in this session. Well, no joke. Talk about last minute invitations. You should see when I invited her. All right, that's it. Heather, if you want to raise your hands, we can bring you up on stage. Two hours ago, that's hilarious. Do you want to? Oh, we got it here. We're going to bring Heather up on stage. There we go. Hello, Heather. Hi. That was two hours ago. So you have even less time. And why? Because I had 24 months. Why? Where is it in the middle of getting a manicure? And I got the fabulous. And I'll pretend like that was really poor planning on my part, but it was actually it came out of this serendipitous moment because this morning when I was perusing Twitter as is my want, there's the English English prof in me. I came across this tweet of Heather's where she was saw this tweet or something. I saw myself from writing into it. I'm like, just leave it alone and care. I I did not follow that wise word and said I ended up responding. But it led me to it led me to a new understanding of something that that I thought you guys might want to riff on a little bit as as kind of deeper pedagogues than I am. So, you know, Heather was commenting on something that Dan, who I don't know, actually was. I don't actually know Heather until today either, really. But I mean sort of but on Twitter, right? So we're new friends, right? But anyway, we were talking about this idea about confidence in class and whether that should be a learning outcome of class. And then Katie got involved to pushing back on the idea a little bit around whether building confidence, you know, is is necessarily an outcome. And then Chris joined in and started talking about this zone of proximal developments, which I believe comes from the Zagotsky. Zagotsky, yeah, Zagotsky. Right. And which Russian learning scientist. Right, a Russian learning scientist who I actually didn't know. I mean, I knew I knew about his work, but I didn't know about the zone of proximal development work specifically within it. So this was the new learning moment for me. And it kind of goes back to what I think that we were starting to explore in the terms of how is it that we scaffold, for lack of a better term, you know, people's introduction into new knowledge, right? If that new knowledge we're talking about science here, you know, and it's not just about them doing certain exercises, but it's also about having them envision themselves as scientists the way that Karen was kind of talking about it. Right. And, you know, learning learning from Chris and the other people on this thread, he introduced me to this. Wikipedia page, which I'll put in the chat for everybody else's benefit here. Oh, when I come through the Twitter link, hopefully that'll work. About about this zone of proximal care stuff. And I, of course, took a good look at it using my my goofy goggles. And I one of the things that I thought was really interesting about it that was a new takeaway for me was how, you know, and you guys can speak to this better than I can. So I'll shut up in just a second. But let me just get that my my aha moment out. And that was that in the process I need to stop the movie in the process of helping other people sort of advance the boundaries of their knowledge with certain uncertainaries, whether it's science or something else. It's not only sort of meeting them where they're at and helping them negotiate the boundaries of what they know already and don't know yet. And so there's like a really fine line there to help them sort of navigate that boundary, which is that what this zone of proximal development seems to be about. But it's also that the social part of negotiating that zone is what Zygotsky was saying was so important as one of the components they were saying is so important. And that's where I started to connect it back to the idea of social annotation and how if we're reading together, we can be exploring that zone of proximal development together in a way that wouldn't be possible if we didn't have that social capability. So now I'm going to be quiet and see if you all have something more intelligent to say about that than when I was talking about. So the really interesting part about that is the zone of proximal development also talks about how people can be too far along the zone of proximal development. So a professor is like too far away from the students. And so that's where the social part, especially in the classroom becomes really important because students are much closer to each other's zones. And so there's not a mismatch of expectations versus where the students actually are when the students are learning together. And so that's why social annotation, especially having students read and respond to each other is sometimes a little bit more powerful than even just responding to the professor in some way. Yeah, I was going to say good old love with his zones of proximal development. The idea, right, the idea of that is that I can't possibly explain it to you after twenty years of having it, you know, explaining it over and over and over again as an expert. And this also has to do with power, right? It's not just a conversation about can I do it. It's also do I have can I, you know, is there are you going to allow me because I'm the more powerful member of this to have the same kind of place of peer would, which is not easy to negotiate and actually just doesn't happen. And so that's why sometimes when you add yourself into a social annotation group like Karen was talking about at the beginning, suddenly everyone scatters like it's like everyone goes to the four wins because they don't want to look stupid in front of the professor and that is really deeply problematic. But in terms of the zones of proximal development, I think social annotation has a wonderful place for being able to make that happen, especially if you just let it be. And I kept on talking about scaffolding because I was like, well, there is a piece of letting it be for a while right and let it develop and develop and develop and then call in a question of like, so what do you think about this? Like what explain this more to me or that kind of piece because it's all about timing and framing. And so with that, I will seed my good lady from you. Well, yeah, I feel like we're talking about a lot of different things here, which is awesome. And and I know that when Heather sort of wrote her first tweet, she was talking about student confidence, you know, and that the idea was that, you know, why would anybody want their students to feel less confident and they would more confident in whatever it is they're doing, whether they're learning to write or learning biology or chemistry. And so the pushback was, well, maybe it's OK for students to not feel so confident. They don't know everything. That's kind of how I read it. And it is true, like it is true that that certainly the students are maybe learning about even the whole world of what they don't even know yet, which I think we're all doing. Like, oh, my God, I had no idea biology was such a big field. Like, oh, my God, but I don't think that there I don't think that that students can come to that understanding that there's so much more to know here. I don't think that's antithetical to them having confidence, like they can say, gosh, there's so much to know that I don't know, but I feel confident that I can learn it one day. You know, and I think the idea of building confidence with students or helping them to build their confidence at the same time is giving them a sense of what the vast field of knowledge is. I don't think our students necessarily come in. You know, maybe there's a few that I think there was kind of a little bit of a tone of what they just think they know everything and we need to take them down a page. And maybe maybe they didn't mean that. I mean, I think it is true that they will not realize just how much there is to know. But that is not necessarily the need to sort of make them feel less confident. I think that we can still help our students feel confident and that when they work socially, I think I think Riso was really trying to explain this like and maybe Heather, too, that when they work in a group, you know, they can give each other confidence. And maybe it is like all the students can gang up against the professor and their safety numbers or something like that. But I do think that we definitely want to work towards allowing our students to feel confident, which is really different than saying, oh, yeah, you're such an expert, you know everything already. I think I think there's a real difference there. So yeah, I work with Katie like Katie works with me at Roger Williams. And I don't think she was saying that we shouldn't keep going like keep up confidence. Obviously, she wasn't saying that we need to bring them down. We just need them realized that they might come in with extra confidence. But is it really confidence or maybe as arrogance and like kind of deal with kind of those kinds of things? But, you know, one thing I want to I wanted to share with the zone of proximal development. It kind of has to do with social annotation kind of doesn't. I work with my students. I work with non-minger students. So all of my students come in with varying degrees of confidence, lots with like zero confidence in science. And so I have my students, you know, create the textbooks for the next set of classes. And that's one of the biggest places where the zone of proximal development is actually really important is in the text that we choose and kind of tying that into social annotation that, you know, bringing in that social reading can then help kind of bring that, you know, you've got this much to learn. Well, if you bring in somebody, you know, the students that do have the confidence, they can bump it up a little bit and close that zone of proximal development. But there's always a lot of mismatch between professors and students. And sometimes that's that gets in the way of student learning because of the zone of proximal development. Yeah, I was going to weigh in on the confidence thing. I think confidence is absolutely critical to build. But that's also different than belonging, right? Being able to see yourself as belonging to the science profession. And that is definitely, I think that any time that we start to tread on the idea of we need to not, you know, we need is it arrogance? Do we need them to be is still problematic? I agree with Karen in terms of this becomes a moment because even if you're just talking to some set of students who have read Wikipedia and think they know everything, you're still modeling that behavior for the entire class. And it is, I think that I think that we have to delve into the the belonging moments there too, in terms of, like, have I just killed the ability for my native student to be able to see themselves as a scientist because I knocked down someone who was trying to bring up something. It just it strikes me as the wrong kind of moment. But that's also something you have to a little bit look at when they're social annotating because attitude does come out. I think you're really really hitting things there, Rissa, like that were that were, you know, talking a lot about, like, again, I'm going back to the idea that open pedagogy is about students, students constructing knowledge, not just consuming it, right? And so in a lot of times people say, well, you know, especially in STEM, our students aren't capable of doing that. And and so that means, like, well, our students are not capable of replicating your white supremacist structural way of looking at science, right? So but maybe your indigenous way of looking at something that you've never looked at it before. And by having the ability for them to create their own thing and bring their own epistemic stance to this the perspective of what you're talking about is such an opportunity for us to to learn as well. And so I think that there's a lot of a lot of pieces that you were delving into there. I loved that. I just want to record that. Can I have that as your ring turn? And we are recording this. That phrase comes from probably Sheryl Hodgkin Williams and Patricia Arendtow. And oh, OK, I'm going to find the reference. You guys talk amongst yourselves. I'm going to find it. There we go. OK. We're creating some new knowledge right here. You're going to do for it, Heather. Go for it. It really is about like also having confidence in your students, right? That they are capable of. Of creating knowledge of of sharing knowledge of making of making meaning of things that isn't necessarily the way that I would or any of you would or anybody else would. And so obviously I have a way that I perceive science based on my identities and that's going to be different from the students that come into my classroom and not giving them the space to do that, whether through social annotation or through open pedagogy. And then not punishing them through traditional grading practices when they do step out of the box. And that's where this whole thing ties into ungrading is ungrading gives them the risks or gives them the opportunity to take those intellectual risks that if they want to think of a different way of looking at the sciences in which we know it, maybe bring in an indigenous way of knowing or their personal experiences. The ungrading gives us that freedom to let them do that. Yeah. And to embrace that. So the and I also think that ungrading and this this idea of the zones of proximal development were really kind of go hand in hand. And that we have this idea of what I was referring to as confident failing, right, this idea that you can't you can't fail in the sciences and we have a whole body of research that shows all of the successes and none of the failures when science is by definition in some way, shape or form a failure of an iterative failure until it succeeds. Right. So this whole idea of what science means and what it what it looks like as a practitioner is something that is we don't convey very well and because we don't convey that very well the ontological and episthe you know all of these different words I hate those big words but I use them anyway but this idea of knowing let's just go with the knowing different ways of knowing even if they're an oral tradition or something along those lines really gives a sense of I can be part of this because I have the ability to share who I am in the midst and that's part of what I think social annotation allows as long as it doesn't go I mean when I was saying the attitudes come out as long as it doesn't go to bullying which I have seen and that is a very interesting something that you have to deal with as a professor if you do social bullying in the annotation world you mean bullying in the annotation I'm like this is public by the way but yeah yeah we're going to have to go back by the way to the leveraging your networks of experts for the benefit of your students that I think is something that we haven't talked about a lot that we I know you're driving this Nate but we need to go okay well I just I'll just point out that I leveraged my network of experts in order to put this panel together there you have it take it away the last 10 seconds just looking okay yeah more links coming through Karen found her adoption and impact of OER in the global south and it was yeah by Cheryl Hodgkin Williams and Patricia Arendtow and they do talk about you know this is in the context of open education but I think you know I think of social annotating as open education as one tool in pedagogy and so they when they talk about OER use as access and then participating in maybe remixing as OER adaptation but the empowerment and the ability to create and look at something new they use the phrase of being able to assert a new epistemic stance and so I'm giving them credit to where it's due in the in the other shit so if you find table one somewhere in that book you'll see it actually when you when you bring up giving credit to Karen that makes me think too of something I've been struggling with lately and it ties back to practice that you brought up at the very beginning which is where your students create bibliographies and together socially annotate works in them which I thought was a really cool practice and we should talk about that more but it it makes me think about and I know this is so true in the humanities and probably in the sciences too there's such a that the education system is so prime to make citation and reference seem like like the most important and risky riskiest thing that you can do and to get right you know like at least in the humanities all the effort that's spent about formatting citations correctly it's just like you could walk away from an educational experience feeling like formatting your citations correctly is the only really important thing in intellectual work I'm wondering how this question of citation and reference plays into this conversation about belonging and also scaffolding kind of reading and kind of seeing yourself as a scientist. Yeah and maybe there's a librarian in the crowd because I think you know librarians can really speak to the need for you know proper format for citation so people could find stuff right they always say like what's the best way to hide something you know like if you want to hide a book put it on the wrong shelf in the library and you know so now in our cyber world you know if you can't find it it's almost literally it doesn't exist and so I don't want to say that yeah formats don't matter at all but when that's all that we're teaching and we're not teaching the context of why like you want to be able to find something you want to categorize it for a reason you want to say that it belongs here and not there for why I'm involved in this whole sort of tagging ontology group with my community where we're talking about what bins do we put things in and why and so again I'm getting a little bit off topic with that but I do think that a lot of what I've done with my science writing that my students do is to use the hyperlink more than citation format like instead of you copying and getting it right you know when you're citing something just hyperlink to that source even if it hyperlinks to a paywall to abstract like that you can you can find that later and we know that hyperlinks can die and become outdated so there's that problem as well but I think as information is kind of always evolving it's dynamic is ephemeral and so hyperlinks maybe don't last forever but you know literally nothing lasts forever so as we keep keep them updated and keep your next group of students making sure they work and refreshing them that that kind of teaching how do I find something what's relevant what's connected to something else is more important than make sure you have a colon and that you have a semicolon and then you format for CBP and it's like they all understand why like that seems out of out of touch for them I like that you you moved into a different voice during the semicolon that's the citation that was the punctuation that started with the information that's important too well and I think the information literacy of like I mean integrating some of that information literacy of this is why it's important and that we're trying to give credit for the words to whoever was writing them not that that's the first person who said them but you know in all of those pieces of trying to really make sure that folks understand the why's behind citations I was going to say that if hyperlinks don't work forever DOIs don't either so you know just in terms of talking about things but it is still I think that it's important to recognize the scholarly practice of when when we use kind of because this is a big thing in annotation too like what's the difference between a blog and a peer reviewed article and let's start examining that like why is that important at all and to some degree I'm like and as teaching at a community college we don't have access to the journals so what does the difference between a preprint site mean in terms of the journal that it goes into versus the blog that was used to share information and what are all of these things common and what do all of these things like actually give us in the end I think those are all important considerations when you're social annotating or the blog that gives us misinformation well yeah I was actually going to kind of address that because so like my students create these websites with lots of really current information like my students wrote about the winter storm in Texas this past spring there's no journal articles about that right now so there's only like maybe a couple of blog posts news articles that kind of thing and so if they're getting information from different news sources and maybe they don't know maybe if they're local news sources they might know that the political slant perhaps local news is a little bit less likely than national news but still being able to link to that so that the reader kind of gets the idea like oh that doesn't seem quite that doesn't seem quite great where are they going and then the next set of students could maybe fix it by checking out the source and kind of going from there and I can as well but it does lend itself to being able to check that misinformation when it happens well and I think what we're talking about is the triangulation of information right like learning how to triangulate different data sources is actually incredibly critical to science and to STEM like to writing articles and to understanding whether this data actually reflects what's happening in whatever research you're doing and so that kind of idea is like I'm like why don't we teach information literacy like that and many people do but the social annotation also talks I mean especially if you're starting to say can you give me some like some evidence as to why this works the way you think it works again that's inserting myself into the social annotation which totally kills the ZPD but you know the idea there is that starting to be like why do we make the points we do how can we make sure that those points are evidence based in a way that reflects what's known and what's unknown and what does and mean even going as far as to saying what is knowledge anyway yeah and kind of I put something in the chat going back to something you said a little bit earlier about publication like what is it that's really important like what are important outputs of the work that we do because sometimes publication becomes for publications its own sake right like oh I've got 12 I've got 24 I've got 32 publications but what does it need to have a meaningful output to the work that we do and what I put in the chat is a link to Dora which is what does that stand for the declaration of research assessments or something but they're talking about how we use journal impact factors to say how important something is and so if we actually looked at pure data sets instead of publications as outputs you know then we take away the idea that you have to publish in a really well-known star kind of journal and then again getting back to that idea of like what are we teaching our students you know are we teaching them how to produce something that can be valuable for other people or are we teaching them to put something in a format and get it in a certain track for a certain journal has a certain reputation so that you can build your own scientific reputation and I think this starts at the at the beginning level you know working with undergraduates maybe high school students like what are the pathways that we take to be training the next generation of scientists and so I think about these things when we get lost in the weeds of whether to cite something or not how to think about publication we're already making assumptions that the structures that we have that exist right now are just good and fine and we should keep replicating them but I love these people that are taking on everything like funding agencies and institutions and all this right because I was just arguing this point at some point with with a couple of funding agent national funding agencies and trying to say look at the community college level publishing it in a paywall journal does it's absolutely no good like this is going to get me exposure to exactly no one that I want to have exposure to because those people don't have the paywall access and so in terms of thinking about it I have to think about it differently and then you start to say well then we can really talk about the annotation moments as an open annotation piece unlike the pre-print servers like why can't we do review differently that's right and I was just and those publishers are making buckets of money right like it's really like oh yes you've got your reputation but they're they're it costs money to publish there and it costs money to subscribe to those journals and hey I'm also getting the word that Heather needs to head out I know she does and I actually thank you so much for dropping in Heather it was it was a great moment of serendipity yeah thanks lovely to see you and on that note I know that Karen may also need to go a little bit early which would just leave that leaves us hanging out leaves us hanging out which I can't imagine that we'll have anything talk about us while we're gone yeah well watch the video later is that what we're talking about so I do want to give you the opportunity thank you I am super busy and I'm going to jump off to actually have a meeting with a student so that's lovely it's been a pleasure it's been a pleasure as always it's really honored to have been asked to be part of this today and nice to see you again Rissa and you Nate for sure and hope our past will cross in real life again soon yes that would be I know right take care all right thank you so much Karen bye and then there were two I'm waiting for the Agatha Christie moment yeah well I think now we're just in full pinky in the brain okay let's plot to take over the world fantastic exactly and I mean I want to invite our audience to get involved as much as they want if we're not taking this in the right direction because we're sort of free farming in here feel free to feel free to weigh in and one thing that I thought might be kind of fun is if we maybe try to spend a couple minutes delving even more specifically into social annotation and and in your work one thing that I wanted to bring folks attention to because we sort of been talking about a little bit is the science in the classroom program that triple AS I'm going to put a link in here to the chat we could even bring this up on screen I guess but only if it only if it dovetails with with your the way you do things Clarissa because oh yeah a little bit of a different practice yeah no I've totally done science in the classroom I really I actually started using them for statistics when I started teaching statistics they had data tables and this is where it comes back to Karen's idea about open science that there were freely available data tables that my students could run statistics on and and start talking about it but the context was not as important as the statistics was if they had if I don't know if annotation is allowed on here but if annotation is now allowed on here would have been amazing to have an annotation moment I guess I could have done annotation with this I didn't really think about it at the time so statistics here to see what oh no yet you have to like get like a biochemistry or chemistry like a biology and then you just take the the table but one in that article I had up already let's see right so so I think the idea there is that it is extremely powerful to be able to to talk about these things and the first time I actually did a social annotation of something in a group from my classes was on and the and the data what was that it was Anne Marie's the use of the use of data oh you know what I'm talking about I'm sort of do it's like the ethical use of data that's through I don't even know how to say the Athabasca yeah I will look for that yeah I know that because I felt like that was the first time that my students I had the principles for ethical use of personalized student data there you go that's what it is okay I think I'll put it in the chat okay and I think I can pop it onto the screen as well it was I used it because so many students don't realize how their data is being used and I just thought this would be a very interesting from a statistics point of view where we're trying to gather data and people are trying to sign consent that yes you can use my data well what does that actually mean and how is it being used and what kinds of considerations you have to put into that and so that was actually the first time that I ever did an online annotation and it was super cool that was actually really fun but then I had to stop teaching statistics because they used to respond us but anyway this would have been very cool I didn't do it publicly sorry I wouldn't have done it and often with students you have to make that consideration of like am I going to are we going to do this publicly or are we not Karen always comes down on the do it publicly why not and I often am like well you know there might be some growing moments that I don't want you to have to do this publicly because I don't want it held against you if someone somehow found it and you're trying to run for something right like I just you need to have growth space sometimes and you can still invite experts to that growth space which is why I like the private group idea in hypothesis as well yeah and anytime this topic comes up I always reach toward an English scholar sorry Amanda LeCastro who was the first person to introduce to me this idea of again scaffolding people's social annotation experience so that when you begin the process you might be annotating privately even just with yourself right just making private notes then maybe expand it out a layer to your classmates in a particular group or in a particular learning community or something like that and then maybe go public fully public later on when you when you feel ready for that right and I love the layering that you can do with annotation which is why I don't understand why even the publishers who require like three or four reviews don't have each individual reviewer do the annotations and then at least overlap them to see what was consensus right what was the what were the things that everyone agreed on that might be helpful and and for someone like me at the beginning my reviewing career maybe inviting me into that space so that I can understand how my review comments fit into the larger picture and that just doesn't happen and I kind of don't understand why not using all the connections here between you know everything from the kind of practice that one might have even with primary school students all the way up to the highest level of scientific practice when it comes to peer reviewing in journals it's sort of the same set of concerns and issues all the way through that whole whole network right and if we're citing if we're getting orchid I mean kind of citations on whether we review things or not anyway then why not just tie our name I mean I know a lot of people have problems with tying our name to reviews and that needs to be an optional thing because if you're a relatively new scholar then if you're reviewing someone who's like high profile it becomes scary and the opportunity for failure is kind of scary as well but I do believe in tying your name if you want to and having someone to talk you know recognizing that a review is a conversation is absolutely more than it is now right because now it's not now it's like this reviewer too who's anonymous right like just says something and you have no idea who they are or what the context of them saying it was well and sometimes I've been reviewer too and I was like you know that came off way more you know I really try to be nice and and some of those you know very congratulatory on like actually you got something out so way to go but also like here's all of the things and I you know you see the wealth of comments that you've just put down and you're like I think I just became reviewer too it's extraordinarily difficult to give positive focused feedback and this is true in ungrading as well it's incredibly difficult to give positive focused feedback that is interpreted correctly by the person who's getting that feedback or interpreted in the way that you intended maybe not correctly is the way that you want and so sometimes even if you really have practice with this you write down a comment you read it three times it seems good you send it off and then it was entirely misinterpreted by the person on the other end and you're like I thought I had that and so the conversation would have been really helpful to be like no no no I didn't mean that I meant this and this is why it's important and that sorry oh no that's just missing in the peer review process yeah it's missing in the peer review process and it's missing when you don't do things like ungrading as well you just evaluate people for their annotations like that needs to be a conversation because anything can be misinterpreted it just requires talking like okay let's talk about what you meant here and one reason I'm leaving this science in the classroom up on the screen is there's kind of talk about annotation all the way down there's a couple layers of things going on here so the AAAS that produces this science in the classroom which is really designed to help early science learners kind of get acquainted with actual scientific publication and the complexity of reading that right and they have they expose this learning lens sort of framework on the right and so you can highlight different layers of what's going on and then this will actually you know just kind of bring up the words definitions of the words and I had this results and conclusions highlighted here and here's the really cool thing so behind the scenes science in the classroom is actually using grad students and early career scientists to make annotations on scholarly articles that are then exposed to these layers nice so it's actually a practice that more advanced science students can get involved in as a way to help early science students kind of get their understanding built up well and even the authors right if you could get the authors to comment on what was the point that you meant here like what was this really about that's another moment of leveraging your personal networks for the benefits of your students like every time you bring an expert in or have someone talk you know they're going to be able to to talk about that particular piece of work without someone else's interpretation and if it's a particularly important thing to whatever you're you know trying to cover then sometimes you want that perspective and it also connects your students with people on the workforce like or the you want to talk about it so that they can actually start to be like okay these are actual people and it's journal articles there's always the joy of as soon as you hit send you find the five typos it's always something that you may not have stated and my point is always the conversation why aren't we having conversations about this even with the earliest learners and I mean just to draw the finest point that's what social annotation really can enable in any of those arenas of privacy or those levels of privacy whether it's just with yourself that conversation with yourself the conversation with the reader that you were the first time you read it versus the reader that you are the second time you read it or the third time and you come back and find your notes because you've changed I won't say evolve the biologist has done hopefully the thing is is that you do change you look at things differently way later than you did to begin with someone was asking me about the ungrading chapter that I wrote and I was like yeah I'm kind of not there anymore that's not what I'm thinking about at all in fact I didn't even do the reading to come and talk to you about it but you know but that kind of piece of like being able to reflect back on what you were doing my only problem with that is that we spend so much time doing PDFs in like especially higher level work and not having an ability to do those PDFs in like a private group or through a Dropbox or something would be super helpful if it like not requiring that it's embedded in the LMS yeah well there is there's actually like a little secret magic that can help there that we could talk about and we could do that I like that but actually I was the next thing I was going to say is even really taking a really tangible direction like so you're a teacher you're primarily teaching in community college if I'm not mistaken right so you've got not only early learners but you know learners who are just kind of at the very beginnings or sort of continuations of their college work right a very specific kind of student right that you're encountering well many different kinds I'm sure yeah they're all in the same classes which makes it super fun which is always fun because all learners are exactly the same right but I'm kind of curious so when it comes to your social annotation practice what like what is what are some of the first ways that you that you've introduced it with students to get them used to maybe I don't know maybe they come in and they're already like Oh annotation I know all about that but I'm guessing it is taught a lot in elementary school now so there are there are a fair number of people who do come in with some kind of understanding what annotation is and then there's a whole bunch of folks who are like I have no idea what you're talking about and and that doesn't can have high schoolers because we have a high school on campus that and that does you know the high school thing and does first two years of college at the same time stuff so yeah right so so not even AP they're just taking college classes they're trying to get a high school degree and an associates at the same time when they when they graduate and so when we have you know I can have those folks 16 year olds who absolutely know how to annotate everything and I can have people who already have two masters and not really understand what the requirements of annotation are for science or for STEM because they've had this in statistics as well and so it's it's partially about teaching what annotation is but it's also I tend to approach most things experimentally so I tend to be like let's just do it and see where we go right and you can start seeing other people's comments right and start to see oh well mine is really different from theirs how is that different and why is that important but my point in annotation at the beginning is reflection right you you're trying to learn how to reflect on what you've read and be thoughtful about what you're saying in the columns but you're also trying to be reflective about what other people said about this and you know comment and have a conversation and as for clarification if that doesn't make any sense and if I mean everything has to be a learning opportunity but starting with what your ideas are is almost always easier than trying to be like well from this sentence I you know understood these 12 things so I and as you do this more and more and more I mean the genius of the AAAS thing is that they're getting graduate students and early scientists who have been reading endless articles the more you do it the better you get at it so it is it's one of those things that you just have to start practicing as soon as possible and that actually Chris has added a question here from the audience I'm going to bring it up on stage and so yeah I was kind of had this way too so do you how do you go about introducing it like just tangibly with the students do you do you model it for them do you how do you get them like do you have the high school students run out in front and show folks what to do so this is what we learned so the idea of annotation the way I approach it is that it's going to be iterative you're going to do it multiple times so the first time you look through the the article you're going to find things that kind of call out and maybe you haven't you've read it the first time and you read it really carefully but I would recommend kind of not spending all your time reading for really in depth just kind of go through it and see what jumps out at you and make note of that get the lay of the land sort of yeah get the lay of the land and then let's look at it again and think more in depth about like okay what were the authors trying to convey in the midst of this what did they think was important so there's some there of course some some questions that you can ask that are that are based off of the basic premise of a science paper but you can also say you know is the introduction as important or the literature review as important for maybe people who have been reading a lot of these things right like one of the things that's lost on people is that the more you read in the certain field especially not people students is that the more you read on a certain field the more you pay attention to the literature review because you've already read all of that and so some of these things that come over time I think that there's a lack of understanding that maybe you know maybe some of these pieces are more important as you begin and they become less important over time maybe some of these people pieces are actually not important at all and what you're really looking for is this piece and it's all about reading for the purpose that you're looking at that you're trying to trying to figure out why am I reading this and what am I trying to get out of it. Like you were saying I think that's where that AAA science in the classroom thing really as you click through the different lenses that they have it really accentuates how you're just highlighting just one set of the pieces in the article to focus on at a time right right well you can highlight them all at the same time too be like whoa but then also recognize what's been taken away right like if you if you look at it would be really interesting and I haven't done this because I didn't know about the AAAS thing but what I would be really interesting for me in beginning science classes is to have them highlight it all and figure out where all the white spaces like what was all the stuff that wasn't important at all let's try it right now what's the what's the piece of you know was everything important or were there things that really weren't and I think the more I was reading Aaron's comment over here I think you absolutely want to try to normalize as much as possible in terms of and I hate I hate norming don't get me wrong I'm a I'm a statistician and I don't like the practice of norming because it always brings upgrades for me and that's like not a good practice at all but the idea here of the people who are writing these things are not perfect and they're never going to be perfect and sometimes they look back at their own stuff and are horrified by it right like this kind of idea of like no this isn't something that everyone has to have a good sense about and we all learn as we go is like actually important yeah look at that look at all that stuff that's not highlighted and of course I'm not going to quickly say that it doesn't matter but it's interesting you know only maybe I'll say 25 to 30% of this article is maybe highlighted right right and that's the thing that I think a lot of folks that I see with with a lot of students they're reading every single sentence as if it's the most important thing when in fact a lot of this you know as you get to the results it becomes more important right there's more highlighting with the results and the discussion and the conclusions and there is almost anywhere else yeah you're right it's the densest the densest part here is in this results section right and I would love to use that as a moment of just saying look we say skip to the results and discussion we need skip to the results and discussion because that's the most important part yeah literally yeah maybe you go back then and even internally in the document you think okay this results in section it's maybe referring to things up above and that's your clue to maybe go back deeper into the article and find out what they're talking about right and that piece of also skipping to the end skipping to the conclusions and then referring back is something that my students absolutely do not understand they don't understand that you can do that they're like you can do that I'm like yeah that's a lot that actually sounds like a great a great introductory exercise right it's like we're all going to go to the end of the article we're going to find one thing in the results and conclusions section and then we're going to try to figure out where it came from right going backwards in the article right it's like you know I like what you're saying here Chris in terms of you know you could look at what's really cool about this is you could look for the dentist highlighting and start to be like are there conclusions that we can make based on where this is right and that's another whole set of analysis skills that you get out of things like annotation that you're not going to get easily in any other way yeah that kind of goes to something that a lot of educators in all disciplines have been saying in their findings anecdotically anecdotally wow talk about this work you know and using it with students is that when students pre-read with annotation what that can really help them do is understand where the students are focusing their attention in the reading and then that can shape what happens in the class right as you come into the class as the teacher sort of empowered by the record of the students passage through the text and you can use that to shape what you're going to do in class right and that it really all of this goes to the point of helping students feel like scholars right how is knowledge created how is knowledge co-created how is knowledge reflected you know helping students feel like scholars early on is really an important thing in terms of helping them feel belonging and what have you and so that idea of like all of us are fallible even if you want a noble prize you're still fallible which was I wish I had saved the tweet that I can't remember her name like I don't can't remember names at the moment but you're on the spot here aren't I awesome here yeah it's just amazing we don't have to be perfect I think you were just saying wasn't I just saying that perfection is overrated I was I think I was okay so let me get down to the end here because it's all it's all in chronological order of course it's Francis Arnold Francis Arnold within like like three weeks of winning the Nobel Prize had to retract some papers because they just weren't up to the level and I was like I wish that every Nobel Prize winner had something like this where like absolutely like I won a Nobel Prize and I still make mistakes people that's just how it goes and that would be just amazing to see even at the highest levels I was like that is such an awesome modeling of the behavior right there that I wish I had saved it yeah well finding tweets it seems like it's gotten harder and harder although I did notice a new thing in the interface to the mobile twitter app now I don't know if you use twitter lists at all yeah but if you do you can pin them and sort of oh nice if you pin a list it then becomes like a swipe away in the navigation of your mobile device so you can pop right over to viewing the the pin list that's a little side segue into twitter yeah yeah I think anytime nobles in chemistry nobles in chemistry tend to be real honest apparently so noble laureates I should say but yeah I know I think that that is absolutely critical for folks to understand that this is this is a process you get better at it as you do it so I mean that's science in a nutshell right right or at least the way it's supposed to be the iterative process yes well I see that we have reached the end of our scheduled time we've also said so many different things that I can't even talk of at all what in the world have we said what have we said fortunately there's a recording and we'll be able to come back to it we do have at least one person chris chris from nova who said that it was valuable so we know at least one person was benefited from that conversation one person I've thrilled thrilled thank you chris I appreciate that I would like to say that I had a just a fantastic time here today I hope you did too I really really appreciate you coming and our other guests as well Karen of course and that Heather was able to pop in was awesome I love that serendipity and so is there anything that you'd like as a parting shot to leave us with before we go on with our busy days you don't think about you know I would say anytime that we can revisit our practice and be reflective about it it's important and so using social annotation software might be something you want to use but I think reflecting on it first and trying to find meaningful ways for you to use it is absolutely critical