 Hello everyone, and welcome to the 8.30 breakout session of the Open Simulator Community Conference for 2013. As a reminder to our in-world and web audiences, you can view the full conference schedule on our website at conference.opensimulator.org. And you can post your questions in there, in here in local chat, or in the Ustream chat, or tweet your comments using hashtag OSCC13. This hour we're happy to introduce Edmund Edgar, who will be presenting Bitcoin on your grid, using decentralized virtual currencies in the Metaverse. Edmund is an IT consultant and a free software developer based in Tokyo, Japan. Previous clients include the British Council, the Princeton Review and Sirigo, creators of the iNo Language Learning site. He is the lead developer of the SLUDEL project, Connecting Moodle with Second Life in Open Sim. He also runs Address Machine, an open directory for Bitcoin addresses designed to facilitate decentralized peer-to-peer payment systems for online communities, and maintains a money module to facilitate payment in Open Sim. Welcome, Edmund Edgar. Okay, thanks for that introduction and thanks everyone for coming. So, yeah, the way we'll do this is that I'm going to talk about the potential uses that we might have for Bitcoin, or for other similar cryptocurrencies in the Metaverse. What I'll do, I'll talk for a bit and then I'll take some questions. Now, there are a lot of kind of very, very big, interesting sort of political and economic discussions that you can have around Bitcoin. And I intend to not talk about those, not so much because they're not important and interesting topics, because there are just kind of other venues where you can have those discussions. So, I want to focus fairly narrowly on using this stuff with Open Sim, and then if there's some time left over at the end and people want to talk about, you know, what money is, or sort of, you know, inflation and deflation and all these other things that people like to talk about related to Bitcoin, then let's do that at the end if we've got some time left over. So, okay, so first let me say a little bit about how money works in the Metaverse in general. And then I'll go on and talk about the role that I think that Bitcoin could play. And then finally, I'll tell you specifically what you'd have to do to get Bitcoin running on a grid and a little bit about my experimental money module that's designed to help you with that. Okay, so let me go to the first slide. Okay, so when Lyndon Lab created Second Life, they built this very nice little microcurrency, as I guess most of you know, called Lyndon Dollars. So you can pay for things very easily on their marketplace or directly in world using the viewer. And because it's nicely integrated with the client software, if you want to do something like buying an object from another resident, you can do that right there. Their system keeps track of everybody's balance, how much money everybody's got. And when you make a transaction, it'll move the money from one column in their database to another column. And then do anything that it needs to finish that transaction, like transferring inventory from one person to another or letting you into a restricted space. And what was great about that was that it was convertible for real money so you could build content to sell in Second Life and then you could actually use that if you were doing very well to pay your rent. Now, they can do that because everything in Second Life happens within their own kind of internal death star, right? There's this one monolithic system that's controlled by Lyndon Lab. But one of the reasons for building OpenSim was that there were a lot of problems with having this one single vendor who runs everything and has you kind of locked into their systems. So the community built OpenSim where anybody can run the software and you're not locked into this one vendor, but that means that we don't have this one central authority that's going to do everything for us. And that is a problem when it comes to money because a lot of existing online money systems, well nearly all of the existing online money systems are based on having this central authority. Is everybody hearing okay? Yeah, okay. Okay, I'll carry on. So I'm going to kind of whistle through the different features that money in the metaverse may or may not have and then we can kind of look at where cryptocurrencies might fit into that. So the first question if you're looking at kind of money enabling your grid is whether your money is only going to work on your grid or whether it's going to be portable to other grids. And there are some big benefits to having your own internal currency that you can control yourself. One of the benefits is that you can print money, which is a nice thing to be able to do and potentially a profitable activity. If that's what you want to do or if you just want to have kind of, you know, if you've just got a game and you just need this kind of play money, there's a nice module by Fumi Hacks who's here in Tokyo with me at Tokyo University of Information Sciences. I've just pasted the URL in the chat. So he keeps the database. He's got a balance for how much money each user's got and it'll handle buying and selling inventory and all the other stuff that you want to do inside the viewer. And so it's all nice. It's technically, you know, fairly simple. It's just a number in a database. I don't know how stable it is, but, you know, if it's not, if it's got bugs, we can fix them. So that's not bad as an approach if you just want game tokens, if you don't want, you know, a big, portable, convertible currency. But the next question is, do we need the money to be actually convertible into real money rather than just having these game tokens that are only inside the game? So I don't know if you can see my chart here. It might take a while for people to see this on the stream. But we've got the kind of the non-convertible currencies or non-convertible systems on the left and convertible on the right. And then on the up and down access, we've got, you know, whether they're portable between different grids or whether they only work on a single grid. And I've put Linden Dollars kind of in the middle of this access because their solution is based on this big fudge, right? So according to their terms of service, they're just using these game tokens that don't have any real value. But everybody knows that, you know, Linden Dollars are actually worth something. And the fact that they are worth something is what makes people want to put a lot of time and effort into creating content for second life, right, that they can then monetize. They wouldn't want to necessarily spend a lot of time and effort if they just wanted to game tokenize something. They want to actually, you know, ideally be able to pay the rent with some of the stuff that you make or at least, you know, get some real money out of it. So Linden kind of hoped that the regulators are going to believe their thing about this just being kind of monopoly money with no existence in the real world and that content creators aren't going to believe them and content creators are going to say, oh, yeah, it's money. Now, Linden have got away with that for a long time and it's not absolutely certain that they always will get away with that. Recently they made a move very suddenly and kind of, you know, very badly explained, you know, apparently not very well thought out move to shut down third party exchanges so that they stop people selling Linden Dollars for regular money because they signed a Lindex exchange and they limited the people's ability to sell Linden Dollars. Now that may be a sign that they're feeling some regulatory pressure and they've got people on their case or they've got legal advice that, you know, they're kind of a little bit closer to a line here because the problem is that if your virtual currency is considered an actual currency then you have to comply with all kinds of amazing regulations especially if you have customers in the United States of America which I think some people may do. So recently there was some guidance that got a lot of press related to Bitcoin but I think would also apply to a metaverse currency that was convertible and treated like real money from FinCEN. That's the financial kind of enforcement network which is one of the bodies that regulates financial businesses at the federal level in the US. And they said that if you're running a convertible virtual currency that can be converted into real money then you're a money transmitter. You have to register with them. You have to do all kinds of anti-money laundering checks and know your customer regulations and all this amazing stuff that you probably wouldn't want to get involved with just running a grid. And that's only one level of government in one country every state in the US has their own regulations about this. A lot of them have filing fees and bonds and things you've got to pay and then every country in the world will then have its own interesting regulatory hurdles that you may possibly fall foul of. Now if you're just doing something on a fairly small scale I guess you can probably get away with it but behind the fact that running a convertible currency is heavily regulated there are some real questions about trust and responsibility in the holding somebody's money for them is a responsibility that is quite a serious responsibility to take on. You may not want that and your users may not particularly trust you to do it. And where it becomes a really big practical problem is if we did what people were talking about in the panel discussion this morning if we're going from just the Linden model where everyone is on a single grid to everybody flying around the metaverse going from grid to grid and taking their identities with them and potentially taking their inventory with them if they're doing that then you don't want everyone to have to maintain a separate balance in every single grid. And from time to time grids are going to go out of business and they're going to disappear and people are going to be pived. So if you want your money to be convertible to real money you probably want to kind of punt the problem to somebody else, right? You don't want to be in the business of administering a virtual currency or buying or selling a virtual currency or really anything to do with it. You just want your users to be able to use a currency both to pay you and to pay each other. So one nice option potentially here that we've got kind of in the portable and convertible quadrant of the slide is OMC managed by a company called VeerWox. I don't know how to pronounce that but an Austrian company, let me just paste in the URL for OMC into chat. So they issue the currency. You can use it on different grids that accept OMC. I'm not sure what their regulatory status is but they seem to think they're okay. But obviously the problem with this is that having gone through all this trouble to build OpenSim and avoid being dependent on LindenLab we've now made ourselves dependent on the money company instead. If they go bust or if they get bought out or if they hire some idiot or if they make something more interesting and they want to focus on that instead or all these different things that often happen to technology startups then all your open metaverse currency may suddenly go poof. And it just really feels like the wrong model to be running a currency. They also have kind of a license to print money for themselves and the value of the bills is money which I guess they're probably nice people there but if they've been having a bad quarter and they're a bit short on cash you could imagine that would be an easy way to get money. So if you've done like that then the next option that we've had up till now is to let people pay each other using regular money. So you go through something like PayPal but that also has some issues a lot of which come down to the need to trust that third party that's administering the money. So one of the problems is that it's quite expensive in a lot of cases PayPal are going to charge you at least tens of US cents to move money from one column in a database to another which is too much for a lot of regular in-world transactions. Another problem is that they have a lot of trouble providing the same service properly in every jurisdiction. You often find a lot of crazy cases where people in this country aren't able to pay you or people in this other country need to go through a lot of kind of verification hurdles before they can use PayPal. And a third problem is that you really want these internal currency systems to act like cash, right? Which is how we normally do things in meat space for small transactions. That's to say so you want to be able to make a transaction and then have it over and done with without the possibility that it's going to get reversed in a month or two. But it turns out that a lot of our traditional online payment infrastructure is really a system of IOUs and there are a lot of situations where payments can get reversed. So this is true of PayPal and also true of credit cards. You can make a payment and then a lot of circumstances you could file a claim with them and they will make some kind of minimal attempt potentially to resolve that claim and find out who really should have the money. And then they'll often reverse that payment and the rules that they use to resolve disputes tend to be a little bit arbitrary. If they've got to do this especially for a small transaction you really can't spend a lot of money getting to the bottom of a problem. So you end up with these very kind of arbitrary rules that can be gained by scammers. So there are a lot of situations where the person who should receive the money is going to get screwed. So that's something we'd rather avoid. So the way we can work around all this stuff is with a, just finally getting to the point but with a decentralized virtual currency. So Bitcoin as far as I know is the first currency that's really kind of solved some of the technical problems or the sort of the conceptual problems in how to do this. But Bitcoin creates this non-centralized system where nobody is individually in charge and nobody individually has responsibility. Now I'm just going to read a little bit from... This slide I've put up a link to the PDF that was originally written by Satoshi Nakamoto who is the non-existent person who wrote the original Bitcoin software. And I'm just going to read a little bit for how he, she or they introduced Bitcoin which I think is worth hearing because you may hear people out there kind of advocating Bitcoin use because they don't trust the Federal Reserve or I think all the banks of the world are going bust and stuff like that. But it was really designed for something a lot like our problem where having these intermediaries just kind of creates too much friction and then creates too many costs and too much sort of unpredictability. So here's what Satoshi Nakamoto said. He said, commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions having as trusted third parties to process electronic payments. So while the system works well enough for most transactions it still suffers from the inherent weakness of the trust-based model. Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible because financial institutions can't avoid mediating disputes and the cost of mediation increases transaction costs which limits the practical transaction size the minimum practical transaction size and cuts off the possibility for small casual transactions. Okay, so that's the basic problem that you can solve. Let me talk just a little bit about how Bitcoin solves it. There's a lot more about this on Bitcoin.org. It's kind of a big and interesting subject but conceptually what's happening is that you've got this pseudonymous system. You can create as many identities as you like. An identity consists of a key pair where you have a public bit of data that can be used to send money to you and a private bit of data that you can use to spend money. So anybody can make a payment to anybody else. All the transactions that you make are immediately broadcast across the whole network of all of the connected nodes in this peer-to-peer network. That usually just takes a few seconds for that to happen. And at that point they're already pretty much for most purposes irreversible but there are some weird situations where you may be able to still reverse a transaction. Then within about an hour they get kind of permanently recorded in a shared public ledger which is called the blockchain. So within about an hour it's basically impossible for anyone to reverse that transaction except in extremely odd circumstances. So the thought is that if we use that in the Metaverse we're going to have portable money, reasonably cheap transactions. Right now we're talking zero or about one US cent typically to make a payment. No dependence on a single vendor and this very cheap digital cash system with no single point of failure. So that's the thought but let me tell you a little bit about some of the drawbacks. One is that the exchange rate of Bitcoin varies. So I'm just going to put up a graph of the Bitcoin exchange rate. Most currencies have somebody managing them and because somebody is managing them somebody who has the power to intervene if the currency starts to get very strong or if it starts to get very weak. But Bitcoin doesn't have that because the whole idea is that you cut out this person who's supposed to be managing the system who then has to deal with all kinds of tedious regulations and may get lent on to do bad things. So what Bitcoin does instead is to have a mathematical algorithm which determines how quickly money is printed. And then just lets it float freely against regular currencies. So what's happened in practice is that as more people find out about them the value tends to gradually rise and occasionally the media will pick up on some angle of bitcoins and you'll have some crazy price spike and then obviously when you have a crazy price rise that always goes too far and then it crashes right back so there was one point in April where for about an hour a Bitcoin would cost you $200 and then it crashed back down to $80 or something a few hours later. Right now we're fairly stable above $100 but you never know when suddenly you're going to get a change in the price. So that's one problem. I'll talk in a minute about the kind of things that we can do to mitigate that problem. Another issue is that right now buying bitcoins can be a little bit of a pain in the bum. It depends a little bit where you live but it can get a little bit tedious. It's got harder since April. Actually let me just on the next slide I've got a link to a site that will tell you where you can buy bitcoins for your jurisdiction but it got a little bit worse from April because first of all it was possible to buy them with Linden Dollars on VeerWox but then Linden Lab have shut all that stuff down so now you can't sell Linden Dollars anymore except on the Lindex. So that's the big problems for us but also a lot of the exchanges that got started up in the early days by a couple of random hackers then started to get a little bit of regulatory pressure so they've had to make this transition from some smart hacker guy to a properly regulated business so they are getting there but that's taking a little bit of time but on the plus side there were a lot of smart people actually working on this problem so if we just use the money in the metaverse then we don't have to solve the problem of buying and selling currency and the solutions I think will really depend on where you live as well because there are a lot of different laws about selling money so people dedicated to solving that problem to solve that problem and we just use bitcoins but what we may need to do in parallel even if your grid starts using bitcoins is to keep some other parallel options so for example if you're just getting paid in bitcoins you may already have some PayPal system or credit card system so you could run in parallel with that likewise if we're doing user to user payments the way I think we might be able to that my module would help with we may be able to do that and give people an option of different ways of paying the third drawback I should mention is that it's not absolutely certain that bitcoins are going to scale and still be cheap right now I think I mentioned earlier there's a transaction fee that you have to pay to get the network to process a transaction and right now it's typically either nothing or about one US send it is it's basically an anti-spam measure right now just to stop people you know just slowing down the network on purpose or filling up the junk it's possible that if Bitcoin becomes very popular we'll get some kind of a natural scaling limitation we ran into that means that the network can't handle as many transactions as people want to make and if that happens then the fees like to go up now I don't think this is really very likely but it is possible it would happen if it did happen I think that you know the community would come up with a solution to it for example it might be that we end up running another cryptocurrency parallel to Bitcoin that's optimized for small transactions of the kind that we probably mostly do in the Metaverse and then that you and that Bitcoin would be used for bigger transactions but that really wouldn't be particularly catastrophic because it should be very easy to trade between different cryptocurrencies you know a billion different kind of Bitcoin clones out there and it should be very very simple to trade from one to the other I guess the broader point you know beyond all this is that Bitcoin is an experimental currency nothing like this has ever really been done before so we don't really know what could go wrong so anyway let's talk a bit about just doing this stuff in practice so the first thing I want to talk about is yeah either one of those or something new like coin or feather coin or something new so the first thing I want to talk about about actually getting paid is the situation where if you're running a grid you want to just receive money but we're not doing actually the full user to user kind of peer to peer thing in that situation it's probably fairly straightforward to get started with this and there does seem to be quite a lot of overlap between Bitcoin use and virtual world interest I mean looking at the kind of sums that OMC were sorry that Veer works were doing in trading between Bitcoins and Second Life Linden Dollars there does seem to be quite a lot of overlap so it seems quite feasible that it would be you know people out there who would you know who would want to pay your grid in Bitcoins if we're not doing the full user to user thing if you just got a grid that wants to accept money then there are some payment processing companies that will make things really easy the market leader is BitPay I'll just post this into chat another company that's doing the same kind of thing is Coinbase so what these guys will do is they have APIs that you can either code against yourself or you can hook up to an existing system there's a good chance I guess if you're already running a grid and you're taking money you probably got some kind of content management system or you know shopping cart system or something running and there's a good chance they'd have a module for that that will do the integration for you they charge a fee but it's not very much BitPay charge I think just less than 1% Coinbase say that I think they're now charging 0% for your first million dollars that you accept so you probably got a few weeks until you hit that so it's very cheap to use and what they can do for you if you want is that they can take the customers money in Bitcoins and then pay you in dollars or whatever your local currency is so that means that you don't have to worry about exchange rate fluctuations all that stuff you can just set your price in your own currency get that money credited to your bank account and then you don't even have to ever actually see a Bitcoin like me and you've got a very kind of traditional accountant it hasn't really you know managed to get his head around PayPal yet then you may you know prefer to do things that way so you know from the from the merchants point of view it really works a lot like getting paid by PayPal or credit cards except there's cheaper and there are no charge backs so you know there's very little downside but that covers just kind of the conventional kind of paying a vendor case where if you just want to get money into a grid or you know get money for services that you're providing or even if you want to have your own currency still but you want people to be able to buy that currency that might help you but the really interesting thing what that doesn't do is to take the role to play the role that Second Life money does that Linden Dollars do so that users can transact with other users so I've built an experimental module to handle this it's based on the PayPal module built by or currently maintained by Snoopy Pfeffer I think it is and a few people I think have worked on this so it's designed for doing payments on the grid what it does is I don't know if you can follow my slightly obscure diagram here but what it does is to broker transactions between avatars or an avatar on the grid but it doesn't actually handle the money so where you normally pay somebody in world instead of actually moving the money actually I'm nearly through talking so I'll just get to the end of this explanation and I'll open to questions so the core functionality is to broker transactions what it'll do is where you normally pay somebody in world instead of immediately moving the money when you do something with the client to say buy an object or whatever we pop up some kind of a dialogue telling the user to pay this address so we can do that either with an instant message or with an open URL dialogue so if it's a user-to-user transaction and then we give them the address of the other resident if it's a user-to-grid transaction a bitcoin address belongs to the grid and then the module then watches the bitcoin network so it's the bitcoin network that's actually handling the money waits till it sees the payment getting made and then finishes the transaction by giving the person an object or doing whatever it needs to do so you can set prices in bitcoin if you want to on your grid or you can set them in another currency put that into bitcoins for you at the point when it's bought there's something to be said for setting prices in dollars and then converting because as we said before the value of bitcoins can change kind of fast so if that happens you don't have to change all your prices and also if there are situations where you provide refunds then that may get kind of fiddly so there's that that's the basic functionality of the module I'll give you a URL for my module here if anyone's interested in running this this hasn't actually been tested in production on a light grid so it's a little bit experimental but if anyone wants to start running this on their grid then I can work with you to make sure it behaves so that's what we can do as it is with the existing client if we wanted to make this really smooth what we'd really want to do is to integrate it with the client so the Second Life experience is very seamless because you can actually spend money from within the client that doesn't work with the security model where the server isn't trusted by the client we know which is what we got in the OpenSim scenario but there are a lot of cases where right now we have to... I'll just get through this and then take some questions at the end so the situation is that in the Second Life client if you want to make a purchase let's say you want to buy an object you click the object it would say this costs you 10 lindon dollars do you want to pay this 10 lindon dollars you click buy and then you're done as it is with the module integration that I've done and this is also true of OMC and of Snoopy's PayPal module you need to pop up a URL or at least have some kind of chat or instant message going through and then the user has to go through an additional step to make the payment and that's something that in theory we could actually kind of integrate with the client so that we take out all those extra steps so if anybody who does... it's a little bit on my expertise but if there's anyone who hacks clients then let's talk and we can either fix the client to handle it better or we can either build a Bitcoin client into the viewer or we can run a little parallel Bitcoin client that talks to the viewer and make that whole thing a whole lot smoother so that's what I wanted to say but you've probably got some questions so whatever questions or comments you can't please jump in like I say if you've got very general kind of spectacularly raw questions about Bitcoin then let's take those later but if there's anything... specific stuff about what we talked about we should probably cover that first OK I don't know if you've got any questions coming through to Cam if not then we can go home No, there's no questions coming through here OK OK, so we'll... OK, I'll just pop my... OK, thank you very much Edmund for your presentation Cheers As a reminder to our audiences you can see what's coming up in the conference schedule at conference.opensimulator.org Oh, Maria's got some questions OK Go ahead Go for it, Maria So Maria's question was as regulators start looking at Bitcoin will transaction costs rise? And I think the answer to that is no So the reason... a bit of background for anyone who's just tuned in the issue was that if you're someone like PayPal or if you're a bank if you have to get... that's right if you've got to do anti-money laundering and all these other... and also if you've got to do dispute resolution then you have a lot more overhead Now the point about the Bitcoin model and the reason why at least the transaction cost of spending Bitcoin shouldn't rise is that there is nobody there to regulate So all this regulation is stuff that applies to intermediaries who handle the money but Bitcoin takes away the intermediary so likewise the anti-money laundering stuff no, your customer stuff this shouldn't apply to people who are just users of Bitcoin So I think we can put ourselves in a position where both the grid operator and the users are just users of Bitcoin they're not people who are operating a virtual currency the virtual currency is operated by a bunch of anonymous nodes and if you look at the, for example the FinCEN guidance that I posted earlier that does seem to be the way they see it as well That said, the people who are having to deal with all this stuff are the people who sell you Bitcoins and right now they're getting absolutely clobbered I mean like I said earlier you had these little companies of a couple of guys and now they're having to deal with this absolute torrent of really amazing regulatory stuff and they've really been struggling with it and there's kind of an evolution process going on where the companies that aren't able to adjust to that are going out of business the exchanges like that are going out of business and the exchanges I think will only really exist on two levels you'll either have to be very big that you can afford all the legal costs of doing all that so I think Mount Gox for example will probably survive that Coinbase will probably survive that these are really quite well funded companies so you'll be quite big and fully licensed or you buy it, they're very small right you buy Bitcoins from your friends or locally or under the radar so I think we'll see those two kind of extremes for buying Bitcoins but you only have to do that once and the companies that do deal with that level of regulation will only have to deal with it once effectively it's not like everybody in the ecosystem has to deal with that so that was kind of a long answer but no I think the answer is that that Bitcoin transaction costs won't rise as a result of more regulation buying Bitcoins, the cost of doing that will rise but the end user probably won't notice to the extent that the end user notices it's actually more likely to be you have to give an actual identity to the person you buy your Bitcoins from but that doesn't have to be the grid so I'm saying make that problem go away let somebody else deal with it that's right accepting Bitcoin on the web is simple and rates can be factored in that's right and rates can so Maria's question was what about using Bitcoin in the world are the exchange rate fluctuations going to cause a lot of pricing issues we can do the same thing here and my module does this you can set a price in dollars or whatever currency you like to work in and then at the point where you pay we convert that into into Bitcoins and we pay that number of Bitcoins if you're not going through one of these processors like BitPay and Coinbase who will do the conversion for you then you've got I guess a little bit more of a currency risk if you're also using the same mechanism as a grid to accept money but I don't think it would be too bad I guess the big issue is more the user who's actually got the Bitcoins they're seeing the value of the Bitcoins that they bought go up and down which may be a little bit hairy for them but it goes up as well as down so I think it's not disastrous and I don't want to sound like I'm just trying to duck responsibility for everything but it's kind of someone else's problem actually I'm suggesting both for different use cases so the BitPay suggestion was if you're a grid and you want to get paid you may be getting paid to sell another currency or you may be getting paid to let people in for the but yeah I'm also suggesting this is where the module comes in that you could use it as an actual in-world currency and if you're selling now we can still set prices in dollars and convert when they're bought there is a possibility that having received some Bitcoins for something that you worked on the value of those Bitcoins is going to drop that amount of volatility is there you can kind of get out of it if you sell them quick but that certainly is going to be there but I think it would be tolerable if you're working on a fairly small scale if it's not, if you don't have a lot of costs on the other side of the income that you're earning does that make sense? so if you're going to price in dollars then you would show so at least with my module I can't show your balance in the viewer at all this is something that we need we need client integration for you can do that with you can't do that with PayPal but you can do it with OMC right now with Linden Dollars that's right because the server keeps your money for you so you won't be able to show your balance in the viewer you will be able to set prices of things in world but if you want to do what I suggested and convert into dollars to get rid of the exchange rate volatility then you're not going to be able to see the bitcoin price hovering above your object right so if I put an object out for sale there are two ways we could have done it we could have either done the whole thing in bitcoins in which case you put a bitcoin price above the object but then you've got a problem if the exchange rate changes the bitcoin price here or we do the whole thing in dollars and we have the money module convert and in that situation you'd show the dollar price over the object and you don't know the bitcoin price until you click to buy it did that answer the question if we did the client integration by the way then it would be lovely we'd see the balance on the viewer or on the little kind of mini wallet that we interact with the viewer and it would just be your balance you create control of your money it would work really well nobody's using it yet so I need the first brave person to step forward at least to use the the module that I was working on if you don't want to use the module then you just want to use bitpay or coinbase or something I don't know if anyone's doing nobody that I know of is taking bitcoin yet but like I said it's a very trivial thing to do okay anything else I guess we're just about done okay okay if there's no more questions doesn't seem to be okay so we'll wrap that session up thank you again Edmund thank you okay and just to remind everyone in this room the next session is going to be New World Studio OpenSim setup tool for dummies with Maria Karlov and Olivia Bettini thank you again to our speaker and the audience and we'll be back shortly with the next session