 The challenge right now is everybody in Congress knows the process is broken and the debt limit, the government shutdowns, that often motivates members to say this is no way to run a country. We keep having debt limit crises. We keep having government shutdown crises. The problem with budget reform that we've run into is there have been a lot of commissions in Congress and a lot of working groups and a lot of special blue ribbon lawmaker commissions. Nearly every reform they come up with dies because somebody's ox gets gored. Some committee is going to lose power, whether it's the appropriations committee or the is going to lose to the budget committee or the budget committee is going to have to give power to the appropriations or ways and means is going to lose some authority over some of their entitlement programs. Budget process starts out idealistic and good government and it ends up devolving into a turf war between members over who can control what and the whole system falls apart. One way of doing it potentially is enact reforms perhaps that don't go in effect for five, seven, eight years so that members who are voting on it don't have to worry that you won't be the committee chairman anymore. You don't have to take this possible. But that also gives the more space you give. Then it's kind of like, well, I'm going to weigh 100 pounds in 2030. I'm going to, and then in 2029, I'm like, I don't need that. They might repeal it then. That's why nothing is foolproof. What's the role then of public opinion or in your theory of social change? Does it come from people protesting bad budget processing and things like that? I have a sign up in my office. I'm drawing a little bit of a blank on it that says, I believe it's a quote that says, do not think public opinion doesn't matter and the long run is the only thing that does matter. Ultimately, I have worked 20 years trying to adjust public opinion because when I worked on the Hill, I worked for six years in the Senate as chief economist to Senator Rob Portman. When you're working in Congress and you talk to lawmakers, they will tell you the same thing. We know all these problems. We know it's unsustainable, but if I try to do anything about it, the voters will kill me. One of the reasons I left the Senate was I'm like, okay, if everything comes down to public opinion because lawmakers are just weather veins, we have to fix public opinion. The challenge addressing public opinion on deficits is nobody believes it and nobody feels it. They've been hearing concerns of deficits for a long time, but they don't they don't feel it as much. I mean, there's been a little bit with interest rates. My fear is that we're not going to get real budget reform until the pain starts to hit us hard enough that people feel it. And that will be inflation and inflation rising interest rates, the bond market cutting us off stock markets falling. And the danger, of course, is by the time you've gotten to that point, it's too late to fix it in any way that's not totally brutal. But I have spent 25 years trying to motivate people even like looking for a Ross Perot type. I'm dating myself on this. You ran for president in 1992, kids looking for a Ross Perot type or something to motivate people. And it's one of the reasons it's harder to get people motivated on the deficit now than say the 1990s is in the 1990s, the deficit was smaller. And you could fix it by reforming less popular programs that didn't matter as much. Today, the deficit is $2 trillion and driven almost entirely by Social Security and Medicare. It's really hard to motivate people to address the deficit when they realize that's the ox that's going to be gored. It's going to be Social Security, Medicare and middle class taxes. You're not going to be able to tweak your way to this like you did in the 1990s.