 Welcome back and we stand for our very first hot topic and we have Kola Oluwadari, Deputy Director of CERAP, who is joining us to take a look at CERAP taking the President to court over some monies, $2.1 billion and $3.1 trillion there are public funds that are missing. Good morning to you Kola, all right so first of all I am one of those who are very proud of CERAP, in fact if you I have probably give you a handshake yeah because CERAP just like the press the fourth state of the realm trying to put governments on their toes very good first of all this administration is just two weeks old even though I'm very excited that you have done this which you've done taking this president to court to bring these issues to four I don't know is it not early in the day or is it because CERAP feels this government needs to act fast so that those who should be apprehended should be apprehended before they disappear give us a clear picture of what's going on here into context this is not about whether the majority is good or bad this is an action predicated on the good government itself the other the general the Federation is at that point of view of the president not matter is this particular president or your answer to the president and that's very clear by virtue of section 5 and it is the 6th of the 19th of my constitution and in fulfilling this national responsibility he has provided reports which state that billions of mayor are missing and not accounted for public funds and the other general have gone ahead in this report to also mention the various MBAs in this regard so what CERAP have done is basically to look at that the general's report and extract details that pertain to force up to the payment from various agencies of government that deals with such but to bring it to the fore telling the president that in making sure that we're really acting on being in the interest of Nigerians why not look into this whole stadium and make sure that they are recovered and put into the public funds perhaps this might go into whatever permittive measure is that nation government wants to do or perhaps even remove the need for removal of sources in the first place but these are these are public funds that simply could not be accounted for two over two billion dollars cannot go to the bank to see there and we're talking about good government we're talking about transformation and accountability but the president is asking Indians to tighten their backs to take steps to accommodate the assurances of these were something we were in the first place when the government is not taking steps in that court is not spending or even recover funds that simply be needed and we have written the president and that was a which clause of law asking him to take the steps give him more like the previous to do that and is yet to do that and that is why we're taking the steps to go to court to have the judicial is the very least instance to compare the government to do what they ought to do that the other public is took by the constitution and the trust of the judge. Okay well you are one of the lawyers of Serap that have represented Serap at the federal high court as we're filing this suit and part of what you're praying for in addition to these monies is they are seeking among others an order of mandamus to compel president to Nubu to direct the anti-corruption agencies to promptly probe fuel subsidy payments by governments since the return of democracy in 1999 main shame and persecute suspected perpetrators and recover any proceeds of crimes. All right one of the things that I'm excited about this is persecution. Some will ask the question you have been taken government to court before now how would you rate the level of justice gotten from all the suits filed against governments before now and what hope do you have that something good is going to come out of this. Thank you very much justice that is understood is called a three-way traffic for the complainers or the victims as it were and for the accused and then for the society at last so in this instance looking at the justice sector and the justice ability as it were of the public interest in the nation we have but for the court the justice of the matter has been defeated largely by the government and in this instance their strategy over the years and found ways to disdain the ruler the judgment of the court by failing to implement them. It is it cannot be said that it is in as air or done anything wrong in going to court because the constitution is very fair as the principle of rule of law which also plays fit into democracy that the judiciary as an arm of government will be the final arbiter deciding matters duties and obligations between individuals and government and even between God knows themselves and so going to court is not wrong the justice of the matter is defeated largely because the executive has refused to obey the lawful order of court and we have gotten to a lot of judgments in our favor and in that way it is the interest of the Indians over the years that this government has simply refused to obey and that does not seek well of this government. Which of mine of the of the topic is made by the president yesterday in that court he also praised the judiciary and he said that he is apparently a part of his own key points agenda of government and the need the government can do in this instance it is not enough to have the judicial economy almost the most important of the judiciary the judgment of court must be obeyed that is an integral part of the rule of law so we are very confident that going to court is the best thing to do is the right to the rule of law is in the stand and we have faith in the judiciary that they will do the needful and siding in the general people in this regard because after all even the members of the judiciary are sitting in this restaurant almost they buy it well like everyone of us they look where the page like everyone of us and know the interior whether in George or not whether in lawyer or justice women will be happy to know that billions of naira are these things and we have been not able to retrieve it and so we believe that the judiciary will do the right in the system and the judiciary has been over the years even with the slope of the judiciary which is also one of the main things of our underdevelopment the judiciary has made up its task in trying to department with matters not on the marriage the executive has always been the the challenge the executive yeah well one of the things that the present administration promised is there obeying the rule of law and all that so far has the body language told you that this is going to be seen through I've always wondered what the body language is and even with the leaps is that as it were how much more we did body language about women and that the concept of body language itself is one of the biggest of the challenges you have as a democracy institutions of government must be strong to take steps on their own accord naturally we need not go to court to compare the president and to direct the anti-corruption agencies the police the only aspects to their job because the law that sets up these ingenuos of government are very clear as to the duties of obligation and the extent and scope of their power and that again speaks to the weakness of the issues we are and the powers of the presidency which appears to be very huge but which is little used in favor of them and that speaks to the political will of the president the government here is safe in the highest of the land and so with the amount of the local power that they are the least it could do is to fight corruption and fighting corruption is not by address it is by the assault that the government takes to the public interest it didn't find it very hard to remove softening to speak so that all his address he didn't find it very hard to promise to obey the rule of law why should he find it very hard to make decisions to take steps and in this particular instance to make sure that this allegation is by investigation it might be too early to indict this administration for not obeying the rule of law it will be more or less two weeks in office and they are yet to be appointed even key officers of state it might be too early for us to raise them in this instance but ultimately if this is that the cost of the government whether the president ought to take this step or not is the interest of many of them but we expect the president to still act and so I'm sure we'll have this being caught but they were very interested to see the defences that the government would bring up in this instance all right you found the suit on Friday today's Tuesday bring us to speed as to what next and how the process is supposed to play out for the court to hear these through our lawyers this is the party application for me the one the court grants me that is the first step in the process then the process is we serve them the president and then we take it from there but the least we expect is this kind of case should really be really dispensable so that the second reading is seen by an agent speaking to that the report of your general body that we did not pay that interest and that is one of the issues that we have in this country and the public officer for that matter is a public institution and not just issue reports but a disorganized government. What other concerns do you have apart from the probing of the people involved in the fuel subsidy fraud that you have already taken the federal government to court for because it may not be the only matter that you're concerned with that the present administration needed to have addressed but have not addressed maybe you're taking it gradually so what next like Maureen said are we expecting are you comfortable with everything else for now our death profiles continue to grow government is taking no step to up the high cost of governance we've not seen that someone that itself and the same government finally is ready in these further years to try to sacrifice for the greater good but we've seen we've not seen government do that on the spot so that again brings up to the issue of wastage and corruption we have so much that is falling for the it doesn't justify the use of that profile and thank you people the things you see are specific and it does not justify the need to know the profile that may be a hard for instance I'll give a very good example in the Osgoe Generals support in 2018 where the Osgoe General and this is the public office by the way it can be seen it can be downloaded from the website of the Osgoe General Foundation he said in the 2018 report that more than 103 mini-series departments and agencies he gets their personnel cost that is their record as a leader by 641 billion there do you know what that means it means more than three mgs simply spent more than they are budgeted and approved to spend for that particular year as you call it as a leader and this is not capital as a leader this is just allowances and payouts and that is just for 2018 so you can imagine what happened in 2018 what about in 2020 and these are just one of the ideas and then we're talking about the president we're not talking about the government we're not talking about other public office so these drain is to stop these are some of the issues we're looking at to ensure that government does the right thing the aim of this public research innovation is not to allow it not to allow it is to ensure that government does the right thing and what government does the right thing we all see we all we all see the impact in our life and we don't just go to spend money and then the people raise the waste funds and expect a change to just work it and that is not how democracy is run and that is definitely not in accordance with the rule of law all right so no date has been fixed yet for hearing of this suit but cola let's talk to you a little bit about the workings of seraph i remember speaking with one of your officials some time ago and he alluded to the fact that you guys do have um you get threatened sometimes in the course of fighting for the masses talk to us about this yes it's one of the other of the job and it's rather unfortunate that of course we are even the right of government or any party you call for that matter to have the legal representation in court but it's unfortunate to see that the bulk of the public education that was fired also bordered on access to information and that is basically freedom of information request yes there are but citizens of morya is asking government for information basically which is a constant on the freedom of expression for which they're from the constitution and you would have got made it defend in this case in the court of natural and the other constitutional right to do so but defend it why you should give access to information to a citizen doesn't speak well of the rule of law and sometimes also the other of the job includes some of the first government take without court what is it called and what are the reasons for the court before city for filing public relations innovation which doesn't even affect the right of service as well as for the fact that we're the general citizens and we also live in this country but these are these are cases that speaks to the right of money for instance the recent judgment that we caught in court uh where the court uh ordered the government to prove the the the law is gotten from china uh to to place the prosecutor for the cctv and that got that order is yet to be obeyed that order it was obeyed of course to benefit all the residents not only residents of abuta and we have lots of cases like that uh that paid in the court so the fact that those cases get delayed as it were it it affects the right of the divisions of the agency would otherwise have benefited from this kind of judgment yeah we do get some kind of public backlash from those who who are either politically oriented or who is based along religious and ethnic lines and those things that our advocacy is motivated along with of course it's not good government is something that everyone's will benefit from and that is what we do and that's all we've been doing over the years and really that's all we continue to do without the without the tops of tribe politics or religion so your cases do get heard and just this is delivered can you tell us some of the cases that syrup has gotten victory over and especially since yeah 1999 yes we've had uh there is this case we call the uh the pension judgment we got that from one of the judges who told you about the federal court that was in 2080 that was a 2019 where the court gave judgment and compared the art of the general of federation to challenge the legality of state pension laws and to seek a recovery of those funds that have been unlawfully paid out and to put this in context more than 20 states in a year have laws that pay uh pensions to former governments and deputy governments and these run into millions of mayor for each day and it's okay to see some states billions of there so put together these amounts of killings of where leaving the comfort of the state of private pockets every two to three years as it were depending on the portion of those laws these laws are not allowed to stand it doesn't work and to reason particularly with the growing inflation with the state of economy and with the age that over we will not continue to borrow to sustain the lifetime of human beings where the government is appealing to like that again and to tighten the account for instance more than one to 30 million years that state of the poor according to the international bureau of statistics and what is government doing in that regard that judgment is to 2019 is yet to be obeyed we also have a judgment from the federal court that has compared the government so to to release details of a month as the internal electricity and water uh for maintenance in 1970 when we got that judgment that judgment also is yet to be obeyed and I'm also mentioning the judgment for the Chinese knows and assisting me that government is yet to obey. We also have judgments from the Ekoas Court uh which is later excited you know they are granting uh orders against the government to do specific acts for instance uh we're going to the Ekoas Court to challenge the use of section 24 of the several times asked by security agencies in the Ekoas Court where there were two are simply expressing the freedom of expression but the court has been involved in line with the with the uh with the uh applicants that are on the multiple sides which may be as ratified by the one domesticated that the provisions of section 24 of the several times asked is offensive to the provisions of the applicants that are which the trans freedom of expression and you know and that is also uh what is in our constitution in the freedom of expression that judgment also is yet to be obeyed. We are not going to court uh the public interrogation to defend the agency with who are that cause to have their right to print the case in point being Mr. Alba Jalingo would come to court in 2019 when uh the same section 24 of the Dada County that's what he used to unlawfully detainee man harassing and the Ekoas Court that's another case entirely I deal with that and I want the text to be on there against the Nigerian state in this level that judgment is yet to be obeyed and that speaks to the punitive which which government looks at government at court orders and this is not the case with political cases as you would know in the year political cases get stuck in orders that are got in at a speed of light for public interrogation that would benefit those of Nigerians do not get that treatment and even when that judgment if you don't get enforced and it's it's really the most equal of the practice of democracy by those in authorities and it doesn't make sense to do more in this regard. Okay well we'll have to thank God for small mercies we'll have to thank God for the victories that you have had and a lot of Nigerians rely on the good work of Syrup like Maureen said people are proud of Syrup do more don't be afraid of the threats and all that it's a service that you're doing to Nigeria and we're glad that you're at the fore doing this we hope that you will do even more than you're doing right now. We'd like to thank you Mr. Kola Oluwadare for coming on the program this morning. Thank you. Okay we've been talking with Mr. Kola Oluwadare the deputy director in Syrup and we were looking into issues of fuel subsidy removal and the people who benefited from it and the need to probe them the case is in court now Syrup against the federal government let's see how that plays out for now we'll just take a short break and when we return we'll be talking about something else stay with us.