 Aloha and welcome to Holistic Wellness Reveals. I'm Latisha Sharpe and I'm your host today as we discuss the difference between conversation, conscious conversation and talking. My guest today is Marisha Murnowska. She's an herbalist, a medicine woman and the director of the School of the Sacred Wilds. So grateful to have you on today, Marisha. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you and Aloha. Aloha to you. You're in California, right? I am indeed. Beautiful. It must be a beautiful time of year there with everything blossoming and growing and... Yeah, we had a really good rain this winter which has been a blessing. So the mountains are happier and we're getting into that dry time which can be a time of nervousness as fire season approaches but we're feeling super blessed to have had a good rain. So hopefully we'll be safe and the land will continue to feel nourished and green. Right, so you have that baseline, right? Of, oh, the earth has been saturated. So that's really nice. And I guess that really kind of takes us into the topic today is being able to have that conscious conversation with the earth, with each other, with the planet, even with ourselves. What does the difference between talking and conversation mean to you? It's such a rich and a great question. I'm so glad that we'll be diving into this. I feel like talking often is unconscious to a certain degree. There's often kind of either some reactivity that can be at play more. Sometimes when we're talking, we're having our old wounds being triggered and we might be also kind of regurgitating ways of speaking and communicating that our parents used to talk or authority or teachers. Sometimes when we're talking, there can be power dynamics that are also really kind of unhealthy and funky. And it's really incredible to look at communication as a spiritual practice because what we say becomes matter and sound vibration never ceases to exist. I mean, it's completely incredible, but the big bang and also every prayer that has ever been spoken is literally still in the air around us. Sound doesn't dissipate, that vibration lives on forever. And so when we bring a little bit more awareness, when we use tools to calm our nervous system and ground and connect to the consciousness of the earth and to our own higher consciousness, then we can communicate in a way that creates magic and medicine and beautiful relationship. We can communicate in a way that is empowering and that is reflective of our own deepest truth. I love that. I mean, I had a full body, chicken skin happen. As you were speaking towards how sound and prayers, they live forever, right? And I mean, I even can think of times in my life when I was just like, oh, I can't take that back. Like I can't unsay that. And then I've had some, you know, deep remorse for some of the ways that I've spoken in this life so far. And so it is bringing awareness to that and allowing yourself to actually be in conversation with people, which to me also, I mean, talking almost feels one-sided too, right? Whereas conversation is this reciprocal kind of dance that you do with each other, with other things, other living things, which everything is alive, right? Yeah, what you were speaking to about that remorse that maybe we experienced when we say something, it reminds me of a saying that we often say which is words create worlds and words can destroy worlds. So again, just emphasizing the power of speaking, you know, even spell casting, right? It has the word spelling in it. You know, words, even in the Bible it says, and then there was the word, right? So there's a lot of ancient myth, mythos, spirituality, a lot of history that kind of can ground us in an awareness of how powerful our words are. And to your point, communication doesn't have to be verbal. Communication is this exchange. When I think of communication, I think of deep listening as an integral component. And so, you know, when we are in conscious communication or in deep communication with a human, there's this almost like a third presence, which is the spaciousness. And typically these kinds of communications can move slower so that we don't go into kind of automatic or reactive or scripted response. We want to down-regulate our nervous system and stay in the body and connect to our heart and connect to our solar plexus and our truth and our breath and allow there to be this, this kind of exalted seat for deep listening. What am I saying? What are you saying? And what is not being spoken verbally but is present in the space? Right, and one way to be able to continue that reciprocity is questions, right? What I heard was this. Is that what you meant, right? And just having that, that's so friendly. That's so friendly to be able to say something like that and non-judgmental. It's like, wow, this is what I heard. Most times I would say maybe eight to nine out of 10 times what people are hearing is not what people are intending to be heard. Absolutely. I think what you just offered is such a great technique especially for couples and in relationships or especially when we're having those harder conversations or feeling more tender and vulnerable. It's so helpful to reflect back, this is what I heard, is that correct? Is that what you meant? And yeah, it's amazing. And that's a skill, right? I mean, what we're talking about conversation as opposed to scripted talking or trauma dumping, talking or any of those things, it's a skill and it's something that most skills need to be practiced. And so in practicing, we can mess up, right? And we got to love ourselves through that. Got to love ourselves through yelling at our five-year-olds because we're late and they're late and they're just looking in the mirror and dancing and they don't care about time, right? And so like I've had to forgive myself and love myself through certain moments of things like that. So, practicing that skill, right? Yeah, and to that, in that example, I think it's powerful when our kids witness us taking ownership and taking responsibility and apologizing. And I think again, this conversation of language talking, it's probably one of the more impactful ways that we can change culture, that we can change how we relate to our children, to one another, that we can change our whole society. And so, I know in my appearance generation, apologizing to the kids, especially coming from Poland and Europe, it's just not done. There's some kind of authority thing where it's not done. And so for me, I have this opportunity to create a different kind of culture in my family where we can all mess up and we can all take accountability and we can all forgive. And I'm modeling that to my daughter so that she can really be responsible for when she messes up. Thank you for talking about that because it wasn't until my daughter was 12 that I was really able, that she really taught me how important that was. And then, you know what? It's just not okay. It's not okay for you to dictate. That's not where we're at anymore. That's not the kind of human that I want to steward and support into growing to be one of the adult humans that carry on on this planet after we're gonna be gone and having more children. So it is, it's a cycle breaker. And I feel like there's a lot of things that we can learn from our kids, whether we have kids or not, it could be our nephews, our nieces, or maybe your teacher and you have kids. So yeah, it's a huge component of the growth and the healing of humanity. I agree. Yeah, so what are some of the places where we feel where talking originates in our body and where conversation originates in our body? And how does that feel in your body? Because I like to bring it back to something that people can grab onto, like maybe some kind of an example of where, oh, you realize you're just talking, you're not really communicating and having a conversation. I know where that feels like to me, I'm interested to hear where does that, where do you feel that come up in your body and how does it feel? Yeah, I think there are some things that we can look out for when we're having, especially a difficult conversation, to kind of help us see where we're at. If we start to talk faster or louder, that's usually a sign that we're moving away from deep compassion and in body to truth. If we start to think about what we're gonna say next when the other person is still talking, which is very common, that's another great sign that we really need to slow things down if we wanna be in a conversation. And if we want that conversation to be deeply medicinal and productive and revealing of the greater truth. And I think, when I'm in a conversation that's really vulnerable or difficult and I'm practicing some of the skills of conscious communication, I do certain things before the conversation to prepare myself. I often will burn a little bit of a blessing herb, light a little sage or just something, some kind of an incense, something to help clear the space. And these, there are so many ancient herbs like white sage or copal, palo santo. These are some of the more kind of popular ones right now but even the local herbs around us, dried rosemary, dried mugwort, burning or pine resin, burning a sacred smoke has been used for thousands of years to clear the space, to clear negative energy. But what it does for us and in our body is it grounds us. It helps us take a deep breath and really get into our body and it clears the mind. And so that in itself is such a powerful tool for entering a conversation that might be difficult or vulnerable. It helps create a safer container. Something else can be lighting a candle, drinking a tea that's relaxing to the nervous system, chamomile tea. You can drink a tea with your partner or the person that you're gonna be having this conversation with, holy basil, just having a moment to really get into the body and calm the nervous system and connect to your intention for the conversation. And then to answer your question, for myself, when I am having a vulnerable, difficult conversation, I notice energy rising in my chest and in my breath. And sometimes if I have to say something that's difficult or really vulnerable, I notice my voice shaking or quivering. Sometimes my belly feels a little nervous. And so, again, taking deep breaths and taking pause or even putting our hands on our bodies or on the earth or asking, can I have a moment and sharing? Like I'm feeling this is really vulnerable or this is really hard to say. I'm just gonna take a few breaths here. Being able to communicate that, it allows for more intimacy. Yeah, I think that that brings up such a great point too is what I keep hearing you say is slow down. Slow down. So many times we feel like we have to just get it out or we feel like we just need to get this conversation rolling or get a point across or things. And that's not necessarily how communication or conversation, true conscious conversation works. So that's slowing down. And you also brought a beautiful point of that these techniques and tools were all brought to us from ancient times. They were gifted to us from our earth, right? And perhaps even from, I'm gonna go there, galactic beings who may have brought them to earth for us as tools when we were ready to wake up and use them. So, yeah, that's here. And it seems what we've done is we veered so far away from what the actual communication is. I mean, I believe that we can also have nonverbal communication, right? So in that kind of communication, there are no words. And I feel like we're moving back to some of that, a lot of that in our culture, in our modern culture. So I know you have things to talk about with that because I am in your school. So I'd love to hear. I love that you're bringing this in, nonverbal communication and communication with the nonhuman, right? So as far as nonverbal communication goes, we're all doing it all the time. And we're all very capable of doing it. I think everyone can relate to a moment of like walking into a room and no one's talking, but you get this feeling of like, ooh, something just went down, right? So we can sense energy. So often someone is saying something and you might be feeling something really different. They might be saying something with a smile and you're feeling hostility or resentment. So we're all actually very aware and I think very tuned in. And it's good for us to trust ourselves. And then I think it's good for us to check in if it's a safe enough relationship and just say, I'm really feeling just some tension here. Is there something that you wish to communicate? So again, just bringing things to light, bringing things to light is always good medicine even when it's hard. But I think the really rich thing that we can dive into is communicating with the non-human. And yes, you are one of my beautiful apprentices to the sacred wild. And what we do is we learn how to communicate with the earth and we develop an ability to learn and understand the language of plants and specifically healing herbs and plant medicines. And so when we embark on that journey of wanting to create relationship, intimate relationship with the earth, with the land that we live on, maybe with a tree that we're always noticing and just feeling some kind of affection towards or stones, you know, some people are really drawn to the minerals and the crystals, animals, you know, there's just a whole world of beautiful deep relationship that's possible there. And in the case of the plants, the plants have a way that they communicate what their medicinal properties are. And they communicate that through the way that they taste. They communicate that with, by showing us whether they're grounding, like if you ever drink like birdock root or nettles, or whether they're very, you know, expanding like, you know, a hot ginger tea or a peppermint tea. And so even if you have never thought about communicating with the plants, you can start to kind of notice like, oh yeah, actually because I am made of the earth and air and water and fire and the plants are made of the same elements. I can actually learn directly from them and I can notice how they feel in my body and I can heal myself and follow my own intuition around which plants are asking me to deepen relationship with. Yeah. And okay, so one of the reasons why I chose to study with you is because all of the plants, like every, they have like a guide, okay, this plant is good for this and that herb is great for that. And this will help your blood pressure. This will help your eczema or whatever, right? What you're talking about though, in the conversation with the plant is that it can be reciprocal, right? So not only are you smelling it, you're feeling it on the outside, you can see it. So you see different behaviors, you see the way that it is, you see how it grows, you see where it grows and that's a part of listening. And then you feel where it goes in your body and then you have this personal relationship, right? And so even though Burdock may be really good for grounding, say Burdock to you, not only is it good for grounding, but it makes you feel so secure and wanting to just express yourself love and all these things that maybe it's a real great heart opener for you because that's your personal relationship. And once you develop and have that conversation with a plant ally, with an essence of this earth that is made of the same essence as I love how you put that as we are, then you can't lose it, it doesn't go away, right? That is now a relationship, it's just like my mailman, it's just like my teacher from third grade, it doesn't matter that that's been eons ago, I have a relationship with that person and I have a feeling and a knowing of who they are and how we share in this life together and it's the same with plants. Absolutely, I love how you spoke to that. And I love how you're really emphasizing an opportunity for all of us to develop deeper trust of our own capacity to trust what we are feeling drawn to, to trust how something feels in our body. And if there's ever one of the symptoms of kind of patriarchal capitalism and the modern world is it's constantly taking us out of our body and telling us to trust the ads, to trust whatever, the news or our feed and we should be buying this, you need this. Oh, you have formal issues, then take this. Our sense of trust and empowerment is constantly being taken away from us and displaced. And so I just love how you really spoke to the plants and their ability to have us learn and listen and hear these subtle and yet profoundly transformative effects and messages that they have just for us because each of us are completely unique and different and to be able to open to that deep conversation with the natural world and realize that every plant has a message that's just for us, it's completely life changing. It really is and even in like planting things. I mean, I've realized that and it's, you know I'll plant something and maybe it didn't work there and I'm like, okay, well, I guess I have some more work to do in listening, right? Because maybe if I was not rushing or just saying, oh, it'll look pretty there but I really did actually ask the plant and sit with the plant or the seeds of the plant or the earth where the plant's going to go then perhaps it would have had more longevity, you know or maybe it would have thrived or nourished. They had more nourishment there. So, and it is a practice and that's what I really want to bring to light is that people can, but you've got to start it, right? You have to start the practice in order to be able to gain the skill and you have to stick with it. And it is so natural and it is so accessible, you know? Yes. And it feels like a coming home. It feels like a coming home. It brings back also a sense of wonder and magic that brings us joy and energy the way that, you know, when we were kids the world all just felt a little bit more sparkly and that sparkle actually never really went away. It's just that, you know we began getting conditioned and told that we should be productive that we wish that this is what's important, you know that, you know, whatever it might have been and so to actually come back into relationship and reciprocity and love with the earth and with the natural world it brings back a deep sense of wonder and joy and then health and vitality because we are more whole. We are meant to be nourishing all parts of ourselves and we are meant to be in these relationships with the earth that is part of us and that we are a part of. Yep. Yes. Great. So I just want to for a second bring to light your school because the apprenticeship to the School of the Sacred Wilds has it's really helped me to find my way home to my inner knowing and I just love the practice every month. This last year was the first year in my entire life that I can remember where I actually embraced the slowness of winter and the hibernation of winter and the darkness and I was so surprised that I actually got a lot done. Everything got done only there was less like worry and strife and stress around it all and what a beautiful way to be able to honor the rhythm of the earth and so that's one of the many things that I learned from this school and your enrollment for it's a 10 month class of course that's ongoing for the rest of your life. The 10 month log apprenticeship we began September 9th and so registrations open and yes each month students receive a package of herbs or they can get them themselves and we drink these herbs together and the herbs connect you to the energy of what is happening in the earth. So like you said in the winter there's more of an energy of hibernation and the plants have released their leaves and they're nourishing their roots. The winter is a good time for us to build deep immunity and deep chi so that in the spring we actually have this effortless vitality and so we go through the wheel of the year connecting to the seasons connecting to all of the kind of ever renewing cycles of nature and throughout the 10 months students are drinking healing herbs that target each of the chakras each of the systems of the body and we have these beautiful online tea ceremonies where you are learning how to understand and hear the message directly for you from this plant. So it's a very magical and beautiful experience and just such a sweet community the people that gather are just incredible and I warmly invite anybody to join us. Not only second that invitation I also I just can't say enough about how nourishing it is to be able to have that community to be able to come back to and even mentorship, right? So there's mentors, it's not just you and it's you can reach out to people around you in your area it's all over the world say you travel to France there's somebody in France who is a part of this apprenticeship I just know it. That's cool, yeah, it's wonderful. It's really great and you don't have to go to in-person things although that's magical you're able to be able to do it from your home in your community and be able to still find that connection to the collective and be able to regroup and ground with the parts of us that have always been available and maybe we just forgot, so. Yeah. Thank you so much. And so just to recap I wanna say some of the tools that we could use for communicating with conversation is to really listen to our bodies if you have a difficult conversation that you're gonna have prepare beforehand allow yourself to be vulnerable and transparent ask questions and give yourself a break and know that we're all in this together we're all learning we're all finding a way to be able to reconnect to our inner essence so that we can be made human by each other in this heaven on earth. Thank you so much Marisha for coming on today and I look forward to seeing you on the 9th and even before I think. So, thank you Mahalo. Thank you, blessings to all of you and the lands you live on. Oh, I love that. And thank you to Think Tech, Hawaii and all of our sponsors and donors that continue to make this platform available so that we can have these amazing conversations. Aloha. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech, Hawaii. 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