 One second preview was open one minute open with preview. Preview is opened. Okay, you know what I'm going to do. My laptop is connected to an external monitor. I'm just going to hook on hook all of that and this might be the reason. Okay, great. Let me do that. Sign up can we hold on to the. Yeah, so we have some attendees maybe you can start with chatting with some of them and introducing typography society briefly. Yeah, but are we going live now? Yeah, no, we are live now because it's 5pm. So we have some 32 attendees in zoom so far and some on YouTube as well. Okay, then I will share the screen. Yeah, sure. Who's having their hand up. Yeah, yeah. Sign up you can see the screen now. Yes, I can see the screen. Yeah. Okay, good evening, all of you. Thank you very much for joining in. On behalf of the organizing committee of typography society of India. I would like to welcome all of you. This is the eighth session of online lecture series. After we did the format inauguration on the 15th of August. We had a lot of interesting talks and today we have two very important. First, I'm very happy to introduce all of you to Arvind Patel. He will be taking this forward. And a cheeky corner. The renowned Japanese typographer we have two great typography legends with us today. So very proud moment for typography society of India. So they will be talking about foreign design through the ages and look at the pre and post digital era of foreign design processes. And as we start I will introduce you to Mr. Arvind Patel. Arvind Patel straight into the captivating world of typography during the publishing projects during his student days at Harvard Business School. He led him to quit business school to study design. He, in hindsight, he concedes this would not have been possible without the sense of untested confidence that make many a business school student. In 1982, he joined India Today in Delhi and led the process of revising his design while helping a technical team to implement ATEX, the first magazine pagination system in India. The design and visual appeal that made India Today stand apart from its competitors was largely enabled by the technology supporting its production. The success earned him an offer from the economist in London. He served as the papers design director from 87 to 99, straddling his passion for both design and technology. In 1990. He designed Echo type. A family of text faces in the joint project with Bullangur brain. Most notable type faces just customized for a particular news publication. The family of text faces now used by the paper. The two also went on to design Times Millenium, a digital avatar of the economist Times Roman for the Times newspaper in London. Back in India since 2000, Arvind recently redesigned the Hindu newspaper. He has worked on a lot of important projects in India. He was felicitated with the lifetime achievement award and typography day in 2014. So, on behalf of the typography society of India, I extend a warm welcome to Mr. Arvind Patel. Over to you, Mr. Patel. Oh, he is not logged in. Yeah, he is not here. He is in the process of just logging in. Okay. Yeah, I think you could mention about the Q&A protocol for Zoom and YouTube audiences. What is that? You could just mention about the Q&A protocol for Zoom and YouTube. If the talk is over, we will be having a Q&A session. The YouTube viewers can give over whatever questions you have in the comment box in YouTube. Zoom participants can type in the questions in chat. We will compile it and we will moderate it and ask to both the speakers. I'm sorry for the inconvenience. I'd like everybody to wait for another two minutes. My video is on. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So can you hear me? Okay. One second. Yeah. Hello. Yeah. My video. So should I just start my preview? Yeah, you can try it. If you can't, I have already opened your. Okay. If you want, I can also do that. Open. Okay. Open. Yeah. I've opened it, but I can't see anything. Can you? Anyway, why don't you? Okay. Great. Can you hear me? Yeah, I'm going to switch off. Can you see? Can you hear me? Sorry. Yes, I can hear you. Oh, lovely. Okay. Great. So anyway. I can see. Yeah. I can one moment. I can see your screen. Correct. So let me begin. I'm here to introduce a highly accomplished typographer, but he also happens to be a friend. So I'm going to be in many ways, unabashedly biased. And I hope I don't come across as that. Anyway, this is to introduce. Aichi Kono, who's own country has called him a cultural icon. An ambassador. For various reasons, because, you know, he left Japan at a very young age. But next slide, please. Can you hear me? Yeah. Now this is not to blow anyone's minds. But in 1945, when the Hiroshima bomb went off. Our speaker this evening, I took corner was four years old and he survived the first attack, which was about 1200 kilometers from his home in Tokyo. The second attack, which happened on the ninth of August, 1945 was about 800 kilometers. I think over about 355,000 people died. Fortunately, he survived. So here we have. Because of that lovely. Lucky, lucky accident. That he survived. We are now fortunate to have him speak for us this evening. Next, please. So I actually basically was a very studious student. Went on to finish school and then he joined Carl Zeiss in Japan, a German company which was involved in optics. And this involvement in optics probably helped him later in life when he got involved with typography. He was very familiar with technology at some level and also about ways of seeing, you know, seeing at a very microscopic level. And the one thing he noticed working for Carl Zeiss is that all the Japanese literature, he was working for us in the publicity department just didn't look right to him. Anything set in Japanese. So he wondered why that was and everything he saw set in German looked perfectly like a DIN standard. Everything looked just right. And he wanted to be able to do that for his language, but he didn't know how to go about doing it. But he had an instinct that something needed doing. So after years of working at this company, next slide, please. He decided to leave Japan in 1974, not being very fluent in English and moved to England to study printing because he felt that was one way for him to figure out how to improve stuff in print. And while in England, he studied English became very proficient at it. And he spent four years at London School of Printing where he was steeped in the learning of typography. And among the first things he discovered when he was hoping to encounter an Englishman as his teacher, it turned out to be a man called Trilo Kesh Mukherjee, who was seen here on the top right in a circle. Trilo Mukherjee was an outstanding teacher, continues to be, though is retired. And he's the man responsible for putting Aichi and me together. Trilo was a friend of mine. And when I first moved to England to work for the economies, he said, you have to meet one of my students who's now a very accomplished designer called Aichi Kono. And that's how we met. And we met with people who say that the Indians are separated not by two, not by six, but two degrees were absolutely right. And to that I had Japanese friend Aichi as part of our Indian family because we all came together because of an Indian who happened to be his teacher. So having finished London's College of Printing, next slide please. Aichi went on to join the Royal College of Art from where he got a master's degree. He graduated in 1979. And among the various things he did for his thesis was a study of Edward Johnston's sans serif typefaces, which was great because next slide please. On the strength of that, he got employed by a company called Banks and Miles at the time of very prominent English design company that had just landed itself a very, very interesting assignment to redesign the London underground typeface, which was originally designed. Next slide please. By Edward Johnston. And it was designed largely for display and this was, Edward Johnston was a, as many of you may know, a fine calligrapher who was responsible for the revival of writing, illuminating, and the teaching of calligraphy in England, which then went on to influence various type designers early among them, Eric Gill, and so on. So including Rudolph Koch in Germany. So Edward Johnston in many ways is like the father of the revival of typography. And when he worked on the London underground typeface, he basically wanted something that was very robust. Built on classical proportions, but easy enough for draftsmen and sign painters to render because, you know, pre-production technologies weren't as easy as they are now today. So various people had to hand letter it. So it was a letter form that could be constructed easily. And then it went on to extend its application across various things. Having started as a display font, it went on to become a very good text font and so on used for signage, among other things, and also for the London underground maps and so on. Next slide please. So then Aichi having studied Edward Johnston was best suited to take on this task because it needed a grounding in understanding the roots of where the London typeface came from, the underground typeface came from. And also an appreciation of a rigorous methodology which he had having studied at the Royal College and being a very skilled craftsman. What you're seeing before you is a letter, a fictitious letter he wrote to Edward Johnston, which was published in a British publication in 2013, sharing how he came about to work on the revival of his typeface, which had outgrown its utility as a metal typeface and as a display typeface that was first done in large wooden blocks and so on for use in modern technology. And this was the task his employees at the time, banks and miles had picked up, but they had no one to give the task to because it was such a daunting task. So Aichi was given this job and he spent lots of time studying it. And among the things he learned was that this was extremely utilitarian font. It was designed for a specific purpose, which had kind of outlived its utility in terms of reproduction had changed from metal to photo type setting. And so London Underground wasn't able to make the transition and the job for banks and miles in Aichi was to be able to make the transition a smooth one. And so they had to redo the entire typeface, which at the time existed in two ways, regular and bold. So what I actually did was he basically said, let's build the regular as the light. Let's do an intermediate weight, which is a medium and then do another weight, which is a bold. And so he redrew everything. And that became the basis of the revival of the new Johnston. Next slide please. So that was his first kind of foray into a rigorous typographic exercise to take something that is deeply traditional as typeface designers. I mean, we all design typefaces and fonts and so on, but we realized that you can't have a completely unique shape because then it's no longer understandable. So we have to respect tradition, but within that tradition we need to understand the technology that's being used to render that form at any given time and how best to design that form for that technology. And so that was the kind of thing he started focusing on. Having done the London Underground, the next task he had was to look at the telephone directory typefaces. Most of us use, while all of us now use mobile phones, and with mobile phones no one even knows what a telephone directory is. London at its height had four different volumes for its phone directories. There were like 24 million copies in print. There were six million subscribers, telephone subscribers in England. In total 27,000 tons of paper was consumed in the production of these directories. So it was an extremely wasteful exercise. And the task that Aichi took on was to say, okay, how can we use typography to kind of conserve space, improve legibility, and save paper. And so he started work on the design of the London Underground, London telephone directory typeface. Next slide, please. And this was an extremely rigorous, rigorous study. You can see there were all these beautifully hand lettered notes on top, different settings, a lot of it pasted by hand, just to do comparisons between leading and so on, until he arrived at some consensus on what to use. What is interesting is that next slide, please. When he came up with a final solution, it wasn't just the design of the typeface. He looked at everything and the way the type directory was being set. And he says, you know what, if you have a last name like McDonald, we don't have to repeat it on every line. So let's have it on top of the page. And then we'll have a little lead in marker. And then the person's initial. So this way we conserve space. So it was both a very sensible design solution as well as an outstanding typographic solution. So effectively he was able to compress more text by increasing the excite, reducing the ascenders, descenders, so you could get more names per column. Instead of three columns, he set everything in four columns by getting rid of the last name and so on. He was able to conserve space. And this whole exercise in its first printing saved something in the order of about six million pounds in paper costs. Next slide please. Now to give you a background at the time IHC did all this, everything had to be done by hand. So these were the kind of tools he was using. Everything was drawn by hand. He had a scalpel with which to scrape things to get just the right proportions. He had a special viewing magnifying glass. These are the camera you're seeing at the bottom right and corner. It's called a stat camera, which was used to make large prints of each character. So you could touch it up and do things to it that you couldn't by hand and so on. But this was a very time consuming tedious process. And he did all this. Every letter, every weight was done by hand. Next slide please. So now I'm just going to run through two or three slides to show you the process he went when he was doing this. This is out of the London underground typeface. All run by hand and see how much work you had to do. Done on graph paper. Everything is rendered by hand. Next please. Next. Again see tracing of every character, then notes everywhere, what kind of compensations to make, what kind of things to do. Next slide please. Again, deep notes on proportions, weights, stem width. So again, it's the drawing. It's the understanding of each form by doing it by hand. So it's not as simple as just sitting on a computer, having days here, curves and knocking it out, which of course in the hands of skilled people produces great stuff, but the rigor and the discipline you get doing stuff by hand is a whole different feeling. And he's been through that. So in that sense, he's kind of a Zen master when it comes to looking at letter forms and rendering them by hand. Next slide please. Having outlined everything, you then go and fill everything by hand. So you do this for every letter. And it's done very clean. Next slide please. Now here you'll see like little nicks at where the, where the terminals and the stems meet. So you have to make sure in compensation marks, which had to be digitized in order to make sure that when the letter was printed, it didn't get blurred. Next slide please. So the London, the Johnston typeface, which he started as, as an exercise for Johnston for the London Underground became like a lifelong passion for him. And he continued to pursue it in his own time, largely with a view to kind of refining it constantly for himself and using the new tools. By now he was using a photographer. He was familiar with the computer. So having started something by hand years ago, he continued working on it. And here this example shows you the first beyond the left was the original, then the new Johnston, which he started working on. Basically he's just increasing the size, the X heights of the characters. And just the widths, if you see the proportions, the stems and everything, it's just being tweaked. You look at the lower case, I, by just increasing the X side, see how much bigger it is for the same ascender height. Likewise, the G, which is on the extreme right. See how much bigger it appears by reducing the descenders. So this is an exercise he's continued to do. And next slide, please. So having, having done a lot of work in the Latin scripts, the ambassador, as this country referred to him, a cultural ambassador, decided in 2002, between 2002 and 2008 to start working on a Japanese font. But it wasn't just plain simple work because his main gripe with Japanese fonts was one, they, they looked very crowded oftentimes because it's a very complex form. But when combined with the Latin alphabet, which is often done in Japan because quite often on words are put in English with the Japanese text, they just looked horrible together. And numerals especially just look terrible. So this was a task he had set for himself. He had some very clear ideas and quite fortunately for him, a very interesting man called Robert Norton was head of the typographic development in, in, at Microsoft. He was an old Englishman, a common friend to all of us. And Robert realizing that one of the things that was holding up the sale of windows in Japan, Microsoft windows in Japan was the fact that it had a very poor Japanese font. And he felt that if they improved that font, it would really benefit the sales of Microsoft windows in Japan. And so he brought in Aichi to work on this humongous exercise. And it was really like a multinational, transnational exercise with many people working all over the place, including China and Taiwan and so on. And Aichi was like the grand architect of the whole thing because he had the vision. And he collaborated with various people to do this. Among them are Matthew Carter. Okay, next slide please. So this on the left is what Microsoft windows had before and just see how terrible it looks. And especially the Latin script see the word legibility, the word character on the right is Mario, which is the type as Aichi did with the Latin done by Matthew Carter who he worked with. And you can see the results speaks for itself. And among other things, this went on to help the sale of windows, Microsoft windows in Japan big time. And Aichi got a lot of kudos all over the place for this. And it was an enormous work, enormous effort and it really delivered. So again, basically it's a combination of being able to see letter forms, what they do and making them do what they do in the best way possible. And if there was ever a person at that point of time in history, you know, it's that right confluence of time and event. And he just happened to be at the right time because he understood Japanese typography immaculately understood Latin typography immaculately. He happened to know the man who headed type development at Microsoft. He happened to be a friend of Matthew Carter who had done a lot of work for Microsoft. So it was a collaboration of great minds, great skills that produced this. And I think we all benefited from it enormously. It won an award in 2007 for good design. Next slide please. On the top you see Aichi's letter forms. You see the large X site and what it's doing for certainly the Latin forms that's Matthew Carter's work. You see what Gothic was doing before and you see when the two combined how much darker the original MS Gothic in Windows 95 was and how much more open the good design award winning Mario was. So all in all a very successful typeface that was able to combine both things. Both letter forms, Latin and Japanese. Next slide please. And here's his collaborator, Matthew Carter. Next slide please. Among the other collaborators that Aichi had was very, very, very distinguished letter car work. This was Mr. Kindersley, David Kindersley, very famous man. David ran a fantastic studio and he was a student of Eric Gill. He learned stone carving from Eric Gill. So now if you look at lineage, Eric Gill studied under Edward Johnston. So you can see this lineage and it continues and Aichi was able to work with both leader who married David Kindersley. And the thing with letter carvers in stone is they have a very, very acute sense of letter spacing because they are working in stone and looking at every letter as it stands next to another letter and spacing ultimately is how you're able to look at what is before and after each character because that is what defines good spacing. And letter carvers have that innate sense of being able to space things very well. They are able to work on a large scale but what they are able to do with spacing most people on computers can't even imagine doing. So David with all that kind of a background had various ideas about optical spacing and he collaborated with some engineers at Cambridge. Next slide, please. And basically his whole thing was that you have to measure the optical density of every character and then see it relative to the optical density of every character before and after and that should kind of allow how you space things. And so Aichi was able to work with them and apply some of these principles in some Japanese fonts he worked with. So effectively again great confluence of time and event. You meet people with this immaculate lineage, great tradition who all collaborate and do amazing things using technology and take typography to the next level. Next slide, please. And this is my final slide to introduce Aichi which is this is from I am imprint of private press. Again, they're doing this beautiful handset typographic poster using Johnston Sands and it's a typographic gem of purity and intellectual honesty as they refer to Johnston Sands. Because it was ultimately a very utilitarian humane functional typeface. Okay, next slide, please. And with over with this I'd like to thank everyone and over to Aichi. Has Aichi been able to log in? I'll have to check. Just check. Yeah, let me get him on the phone. Yeah. Yeah. Kona son, have you been able to log in? Because they're waiting. Oh, sorry about it. HTTP. This one, yeah. Yeah. Just log in with your credentials and so then you'll be able to present and if you have any problems, he has the presentation. He'll show it on his screen and then you can talk about it. Okay. My name is just a, my name is okay. Your name is Aichi, but you have to use the password they gave you. Not the password, your email address. Okay. So just log in. Okay. Okay. If you're having difficulty, are you having difficulty logging in? You can hear me. You can hear you. Okay. If you use PDF file, I've already opened it. Okay. Aichi, are you able to log in? Okay. You can ask him to log in, whichever zoom login he has, then I will use the slides from here. He's look, if you can't present, we have the presentation here. All you need to do is quit out of zoom restart and then once you get in, Professor GV will show the slides on his screen and you need to just talk through it then. GV, you could share the participant zoom link with Professor Aichi and then we can get him in and move him as a panelist. Yeah. He's connecting, he says. Okay. Change him into a panelist. Okay. Ask him to log in to zoom somehow. Have you logged in to zoom? No, no, use the link. In your name, it is fine. Log in to zoom somehow and then I will change this into a panelist. Are you using your email address to log in? Yeah. Sorry about that, GV. You tell him that I have sent him an email with the link again. Aichi, he just sent you an email with a link. Can you use that? So he will come directly to this meeting. Yeah. Just use that link that's just been sent to you. Otherwise tell him somehow, if he must be having a zoom login. He does have a zoom login. Yeah. Just log in and then we will change it from here. We will give him the screen sharing rights from here. Okay. Any luck, Aichi? Yeah, please use that. Use that link. Yes. Yeah, just put Aichi and put your email. Okay. The email that we gave them, which is BT internet. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Okay. Great. Okay, I'm hanging up. No, Aichi, son, no, you can start. If you like, you can share your screen. Otherwise I can share the screen for you. I think why don't you just share? Why don't you do the presentation? He'll talk through it. Aichi needs to unmute himself. Yeah. Hello. Aichi, I'll call him. He's still mute, is he? Yeah. I have already shared the screen. Okay, one second. Sign up, can you see the screen? Yeah, I can see the screen. So ask Aichi to start talking. Yeah. He needs to unmute himself. Son, you need to unmute yourself. What do you prefer? You're on mute. Your sound is suppressed. Yes, yeah. Okay. Is he okay now? All right. Okay. Bye. Also, you can hear me. Yes, I will move the slides from here. You can just tell me when to go to the next slide. If you start talking. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you for guiding me all this and inviting me. Thank you. It is our pleasure and honor. Namaste. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. No, no, no, no. What I see is, um, uh, The first page of my presentation. Yeah, should I go to the next one? Um, yeah. Yeah. Oh, it comes out automatically. Yes. Yeah. He's doing it. So, um, I should say something about it. Yeah. Well, this is three characters from top to bottom, in the middle, and letters are cast if it's a typeface, cast in a square body. That's top is heaven or sky, and then middle is a human or person, and then bottom one is a ground or earth or soil, and then they are all actually, origin is a Chinese, Chinese writing, Chinese actually typeface as well, but probably almost three, four, five thousand years ago, that's developed, it is called ideogram or ideogram, and then it's in a way started from the pictogram, just like a hieroglyphics, and then they stylized and developed in a different way, and then these characters, actually Chinese writing, actually came from China to Japan about 1500 years ago, 1500 years ago, apparently, and that came with Buddhism originally from India and then through China to Japan, so Buddhist philosophy is very much part of a foundation of a Japanese philosophy thinking, and then Japan has a different pagan sort of religion called Shinto, and they mixed up everything, and nowadays even Santa Claus is mixed up, and that's kind of a Japanese background really, and then 1500 years ago was a big change, although Chinese writing introduced, brought into Japan, but the Japanese language is surprisingly very, very different from Chinese language, and linguistic term, Chinese language is called polysyllabic, intonation is very important, but the Japanese, Chinese is a monosyllabic, and intonation is very important, but the Japanese is a polysyllabic, a bit like sort of Latin kind of language, so often Spanish and Italian people, they say very much for them to easier to pronounce the Japanese sound than the vice versa, and so Japan actually developed their own phonetic alphabet, so equivalent of ABC or many of Indian language as well, and then nowadays about, not about, it's 46 phonetic script to write, so, but in the middle of this screen you see top to bottom heaven cube, human ground, they're all Chinese characters, and then even Japanese phonetic script are simplified from some of the characters, not from all these, it's Chinese characters are normally the more than few thousand, so every day's newspaper, in order to read it in the old days, often people say took 20 years or so after being born, and then learning, and it's very much a difficult thing, but Japanese, so phonetic script is after 1500 years ago, so about 1200 to 1000 years ago became very much popular, and then the first one was adopted by really first writing, is women actually liked writing all this Japanese language, the phonetically, and the famous novel which is said to be the first novel written by women in the world, it's a tale of Genji, you must have heard, and then in the old days, often people called Japanese phonetic script kana, it's called, is a women's writing, and because men are always, always too conservative, and they always kind of proud of they knew lots of Chinese characters, and then still stuck on the difficult writing, but nowadays we use mixed, because there are a great advantage of using Chinese characters as well, which is later I probably, if I have a chance, and then I can describe, very much now, when you come across the face, you know, the emoji, it's a, moji is a Japanese word, it's a emoji, it's very much sort of the, sort of like a development, first sort of part of Kanji characters evolve, so, and then the square format is very much, I just realized when Alvin asked me to join in this the, the top, I started feeling my background is very much kind of the, the fixed weather square, and then why that, and then as a typographer, yes, even if I nowadays use a lot of western alphabet, and even design it, but square is a quite interesting thing, I thought, so anyway, so I'd like to take you to my background, how I lived, and then, then probably I could talk about it more, sort of, wider prospect, the subject of it. Okay, next one, yeah, welcome to Japan, and so I want to talk about fair and the square, so I guide you to first, how we live, Japanese house, so there's an entrance, and then that's just, you can see door, and then next, and this is typical of, you come in to open the front door, and then you can see, you, you have to leave, they choose whatever you are wearing, and then whether that's a barefoot or you have, often people use the slippers up inside the house, or barefoot, this is a little bit wider sort of entrance, and you can see how they keep shoes and bicycles, everything, before you go into living side, so next slide is actually showing, you know, people visiting Japan from different parts of the world, they are asked to take off shoes, so getting into your room, I mean your next one, please, very cluttered, but this is a typical of Japanese living room, and then you can see square cushion and table, and very much, this is the environment I lived in, when I was in Japan, television is a bit old, this is an old photograph, and telephone is in the middle, you can see, next one please, then when you, going into the other room, and this is another typical household, but cleaned up, because guests are coming in, and it's a floor, and sliding doors, and then left-hand side, you can see the bit of a garden, and you must be wondered, how we sleep, and we sleep on the floor, and it's called a stone, probably you know, nowadays, even in London, there are places called stone shop to sell mattress, mattress is kept, right-hand side is actually a little storage space, it's also sliding door to open, and then, so next one please, so you can see, it's a bit more classy, but it's not much difference, so mattress, no, tatami mat is one to two ratio, it says, and tatami is actually, it's a Japanese traditional sort of room, floor, flooring, and normally made of woven soft rush straw, and I had, in your days, somebody, my actually predecessor, sort of, came to Europe, and then asked, where do you live, and then they said, you know, Japan, and Japanese houses like this, like this, and then, and we sleep on the floor, and then people thought, my god, you know, they're sleeping in a kind of couch, but it's very different, you know, it's higher than the ground level, and then we put straw, you know, tatami mat, and then, when he was asked, well, we have a proper mat on the floor, and so it's very much comfortable, and what is it made of, and then he said, it's a straw, and then even worse, you know, and the people in the west sort of, that's definitely, it's like a couch head, but anyway, sorry, I'm just kind of digressing, but, and then the sliding door is called a fusuma, it's, again, one to two ratio, and sliding door, and it's made of wood and paper, actually, and then, and further on is, bottom is a glass, it's a square format, top is some translucent paper screen is attached, and then that's also sliding door, but it's called shouji, top one, it's another very much Japanese thing, Japanese paper, and translucent light is very nice soft light, and then outside you can see a garden, a bit of a green, and often easily you can actually take off all this sliding door, and then it's so open, because the Japanese summer is quite hot and humid, so take off all these sliding doors, and then wonderful breeze comes in, and then that's another beautiful thing, next one please, the size of tatami mat or shouji screen door, or sliding door, it's, they are all about three by six foot feet, and one feet, Japanese equivalent is shouji, it's about 30, just slightly bigger than a foot, and so next one please, everything looks like a kind of oblong or square shape, but they here and there, Japanese has interesting solution for or application of the angle, this is the coming from different floor level to slightly up, and then often if it's the right angle, then it's more like the, it's a you might trip and accident happen this way, and then very subtle way, a lot of things, you know, there is a different level, it's a very effective, so this is a kind of design, you know, other way I learned without really sort of realizing it, and then so another next one please, then they, we've been seeing Japanese the room, but this is a corridor, corridor is also which is about three feet, so about 90 centimetres or three feet long, and then on the outside sliding door is a mainly glass, and then when typhoon comes and or heavy rains, heavy weather, strong wind, and then they have another particular sort of sliding door outside of the just outside of the glass sliding door, it's a more sturdy wooden door, so that way it's very much Japanese protected for bad weather, and but important is openness, next one please, so you're in Tokyo and then you visited Japanese normal household, average household, now one of the more bigger buildings to visit, and this is a national museum of western art in Tokyo, that was established about 60 or 70 years ago, and I think 60 years ago, around the 1960s, and then designed by famous architect the Corbusier, next one please, so this is a famous Corbusier's module, it's a square format, and then also the three, one to two ratios human size, and right hand side four squares, actually the museum's floor plan, grand floor and first floor, second and third floors, and Corbusier I had, he was quite impressed by Japanese unit system for the architecture, it's been traditional for many many years, so maybe later on that we go back to the another picture for Japanese household, one to two ratio of tatami mat and shouji screen, suma or glass door, so these are all two squares, or sometimes even tatami mat is just one square to make more interesting arrangement, and so these suppliers are actually it's specialized, so people who make tatami mat, they have a specialized craftspeople producers and shouji screen as a different ones, and so in the mid in ancient time already in Japan they are very much adopted to mass producing more efficient way, anyway the next one please, so this is the inside as you come in, and then it's just any museum, but in the middle is a square seating, the stool, and then over there is a square entrance and square painting in the middle, and next one please, this is a Monet's, it is, this is the one actually exhibited in that museum, so definitely we must have a square in Japan, next one please, the very openness is important, it's a grand level of museum's reading room, and famous Corbusier's Pirate is a, you know, the building is supported with a big pillars, and so this sort of thing is very much, you know, it's a modern house or buildings, Corbusier's in France is very big, next one please, this is a, maybe Corbusier must have given me lunch like this, next one please, so the making very efficient way, square lunch, next one please, presentation is quite important for inviting guests and then giving the lunch, next one please, suddenly which is different, it's, I'd like to talk about a bit more my own side of profession, designer, as a designer, as a Lego, it's a square, and interesting thing is Lego, you know, horizontally, vertically, or the, from top to bottom, left to right horizontally, you can make many different shapes, so square logo, let's see other square logo, okay next one please, it's a very well known international brand, isn't it, next one, this is a London School of Economics, a very important institution, then next one, Financial Times, next one, General Motors, Microsoft, Uniqlo, Uniqlo is, it is a Japanese company, but now international, and left hand side is Japanese phonetic script, derived from Chinese characters, but the dropping, is simplifying everything, but just retaining the part of the Chinese characters, and then the sound is just fixed, only one sound to pronounce, so left hand side up is a U, and then next right hand side a Ni, and then come down, and bottom left is a Ku, and then bottom right is a Lu, in this case it's a horizontally reading, starting from left hand side, Uniqlo, okay next please, this is a 1-2-2 ratio, and before this, actually the economist, the name is placed slightly different of long shape, but this is quite neat to me, next one please, this one is also, that's independent television network or newspaper or whatever, its design is also two squares together, okay next one, three squares, everyone knows, so next one, it is square has a very interesting sort of nature, and this is always I liked from my school days when I was little, three by three, nine square, and then four by four, sixteen square, when you put like way, and then it's an equal number of squares, and the five by five, twenty-five, it's Archimedes, no Pythagoras, yes the next one please, so as a typographer, I try to talk about not just the square, but what's in it, all the logos, when you design logo, and then this is before after, square is absolutely identical, but the story about the color is slightly different, but I just didn't have a time to make it exactly same color, but it is just, you know, when you just look at the arrangement of letters before, it's just normal typeface to be set, and then placed into the square, and typeface is called Scala, yes, it's middle of 1900, so about 25 years ago or so, it was newly designed by Dutch designer, typographer, type type designer, and Scala was quite popular around that time, because lots of people are gradually sort of fed up with always helipetica, and it is very nice, it's kind of quirky, but nice sort of human touch in it, not clinical, and very nice, so Royal Academy really wanted every publication is set in Scala, and then so they wanted to use their logo as well, but something sort of not satisfactory, and so after they changed it this way, when you look at it, and more carefully, not only just capital letters R is much larger than, but the lower case more or less the same, however, a little bit closer to each other, so set tighter, which is more emphasis on the kind of together, and also when you see Royal's L, Academy's D, and the Arts T is more or less aligned, and that gives, it's not kind of too rigid or anything, but it gives some kind of order and cleanliness, I would say, so everything is more together, so that is the difference, so space is important, but also when you place things, and how you place it, and then certain making certain kind of arrangement for tidiness, I would say, so that's a different sort of, often typographers or type designers, and then graphic designers for designing a logo, this would be the often people do this kind of thing, but now when you visit Royal Academy, and then they changed to a new logo, which is just R&A, which when I was given this task 20 years ago, and then they used it until about a few years back, and then so it lasted about, you know, nearly 15 years or so, logo changes, but at that time I suggested rather than full name, they just R&A to do it would be much stronger, and then now they are doing it that, that's another sort of, so next one please, moving away from square, it's another before and after, and top one is Gil Sands to put the fairly long name inside, it's a logo, but it's not really kind of orderly, I mean it's fine if you are given, I mean you're shown, but the bottom one is a lot more orderly, isn't it? And the bottom one is a different typeface, it's very much similar to Gil Sands, and again like Royal Academy's logo, new one has some kind of tidiness, and what's the difference when you start looking at it's a C-I-T-U-I, and then Ampersand is a smaller, because sitting on the Gil is very long, so and then and you don't need to be so big, so arrangement for consideration, for arrangement is certain sort of, not only just a typographic, but the linguistic side of consideration would be useful, and then COA, extreme left, also nicely sort of arranged, often this sort of arrangement is required for page setting, the rounded letter or A-like sort of, it's different from squareish letter, so often typographers or typesetters, compositors, they do the adjustment for the every line of type setting, but when you do this kind of thing, also looks much neater. Next one please, it is away from square, but actually origin is square, and then by now you must have noticed it is, it's a Fibonacci number, and then one plus one is two, and then three, five, eight, thirteen, twenty-one, and so on, and then always the ratio is one to one point six, one eight, and just infinite sort of number, but more or less you can say one to one point six, and it draws beautiful traces, beautiful spiral, and many natural sort of flowers and plants and growing and in this sort of forms, so square is kind of origin, and square is not just always just fixed, it's a beautiful organic, it will create. Okay next one please, and this is just an application of design, actually the typefaces are redesigned, so I mean they looks like a Gilsons, but Gilsons is also, it's based on Edward Johnston's underground alphabet, London underground alphabet, and then, so they're all just improvement of it, or particular use of it, and different variations, and this city on the Gilson is another sort of derivative of it, so origin is Edward Johnston's alphabet, and then Edward Johnston's underground alphabet is proportionate, it really comes from Thracian collamans, which is the first century of the Roman alphabet, and it is proportionate, it's very beautiful. Next one please, so it's Thracian collamans adaptation of the modern architecture, next one please, about eight foot high, large steel door, okay next one please, and coming back to a Japanese phonetic script, this is called Hiragana, and 46, and starting from this time is top right hand corner, because we right from top to bottom, and also left to right, but anyway, so first vertical column, vertical row, or it's A, and the next one is called E, is I, U is U, and then E is E, O is O, then consonant is attached from top to bottom is K, so Ka, Ki, Ku, Ke, Ko, next one, Sa, Shi, Su, Se, So, A, Chi, Su, Te, To, Na, Ni, Nu, Ne, No, Ha, I, Fu, He, Ho, Ma, Mi, Mu, Me, Mo, Ya, I, U, He, Yo, so it's very much like the vowel sound of Japanese, the right hand side, extreme right hand side, the second one down is, so so it used to be different E was placed there, and in your days people pronounced it slightly differently, so Ya, E, U, and A as well, and so nowadays it's completely dropped, so it's left open, then next is a valley rou, rou, rou, and then again Wa is Wa, Ui, Ue, U, so we don't have three of them, and then U is the just convenience, and just placed there, but N is U, so altogether is 46 kana letters, and then as you, as long as you learn these 46, just like a 26 if you learn, and then you can write English, and you can write Japanese, but the the entire written Japanese type set with 46 is very hard to read, because we are so used to mixing with Chinese characters, a bit like as I said, phonetic script with an emoji in it, then, but emoji is so crude still, because it's like a few thousand years pictogram, but kanji character, so-called Chinese characters, the ideogram is an ideo, is ideas in it, and then few, the different elements to make one character, and then which means, say, so the heaven and human, and us, but then it's lots of different characters in a subtle difference of the heaven, or because it's a sky, or, you know, atmosphere, or, and then the human, or person, or, you know, male or female, man or woman, or difference, and then the earth is, whether that soil or you mean you know, a road or a surface, or then Chinese characters are combining together and they're expressing lots of the subtle things, so Japanese, a normal reading text, books, or new papers, magazines, about 70, 80, or depending on the subject, or depending on who is going to read, about, I would say, around 80 percent of phonetic script like this, and then 15, 20 percent or so Chinese characters mixed it, but when I have a chance, and then I can describe that, it's enormous advantage, it's, so next one please, when you run 46 characters, and it's a bit boring, but it has this Pokemon stuff as well, so you know, Japanese kids, they can run, when you see right hand side of top, letter R, and then right hand side of letter R is, you can see the alphabet A, and left hand side is a little character, it's Katakana, which is also same R, it's in a way, you have, I mean, the Roman alphabet, the capital letters and lowercase letters, that sort of way, and then middle one, main one, for the Hirakana, and then left hand side, the small one, it's Katakana, Katakana is often used for describing phonetically, foreign language, so 46 by 46, so yes, 92, next one please, 46 characters, actually it's a written in ancient, it's a poem, 48 has been used, plus one more, plus 48, as I described bottom here, it's called Iroha poem, because instead of I-U-L, it's in your days, Japanese children started learning Iroha, because it's all necessarily 46 or in your days, 48 characters is learned in this way, and this is a beautifully written by, must be a good calligrapher, or person who can write beautifully with a brush script, and it's all Hiragana, and it's very much like, you know, the beautiful, the italic script, or Arabic beautiful writing, sort of, and not like the Kanji character, which is very much dense and very squarish, but it's flowing, and what's written is, it's a, the quick brown fox jumps over Lazy Dog, it's all 26 letters are, you can see included it, but top one Iroha, this Japanese poem, it's no, the same letters is used, very cleverly done, rule out this, and you know what it means, it's a beautiful letter, so next one please, this is a translation of Iroha, although it's sent still lingers on, the form of a flower has scattered away, for whom will the glory of this world remain unchanged, arriving today at the younger side of the deep mountain of evanescent existence, we shall never allow ourselves to drift away intoxicated in the world of shallow dreams, and the poem is written by the monk called Kukai, or we also call it Kobo Daishi, and he he was a young Buddhist or scholar, at that time everyone had to learn Buddhism and their writing, reading, so only just a couple of centuries after the really writing system and then Buddhism brought from China, or from India through China to Japan with the Chinese characters, because in Japanese they didn't have a writing, didn't have any letters, so he was one of the scholars, and then young, and then he was sent to China to study more, and then he was going to India even, but the journey that is staying in China was quite limited and short for many reasons, and then he came back, but he learned a lot, and he's the one who actually, it is said, he was inventor of Japanese kana script, so Aiyuwe or Iroha, and then that poem was written by him, amazing, and he was not only just the philosophy to learn, or the religious practice to bring to Japan, but he is not only just a accomplished calligrapher so-called, but engineer and invent the engineer and the architects, and it's many other technologies he also brought in, they often, the people regard him like the ancient Japanese of bit like kind of Da Vinci sort of figure, although he didn't really, it Mona Lisa sort of paintings, but, and so around his time, of course he must have involved a huge temple was also built, could you next one please? When you go to Japan, now you can visit Japanese style house, which is, it's Daibutsu Den, it's called, Daibutsu means big Buddha, and then it's, it's a den, sanctum, and then it's a, other name is Todaiji, it's a Eastern Great Temple, it is huge building, and not far from Kyoto, so about half an hour by train, and then it's a beautiful countryside and little nice city, and it's the influence is amazing, isn't it? And inside as you come in, next please, big Buddha is meditating, and you can see how small we are humans, he has, once a year, is a shampoo, so this is a sort of size of it you can see, and the right hand side you can see there is a profile, next one please, so this is a sample of how we write, from top to bottom, or left to right, and then how Hiragana, Katakana, or you know, and then Chinese origins, Kanji characters are combined together, meaning is heaven does not create people above people, does not create people below people, and as you can see an important part of there was placed, they used Chinese characters, because top one is then we don't have to spread out heaven, but only just one, two, three, four, five, four strokes to make heaven, and human, or only two strokes in the middle one, bottom and only three strokes for earth or ground, so only a little bit more complicated Kanji character is the horizontal writing is a bottom force line in the middle character is actually to make or create or depending on the you know, use of it, it's meaning changes, so that's a big difference from any other writing form I think, so you can see the great advantage of mixing with a Chinese origin ideogram with a phonetic script, so this is what we write, and then all characters whether that's a simple or not, everything is placed in a square, so because in the old days every character is cast on the metal body, so easier to sit, and the square is quite useful, and then I didn't realize I actually grew up in a square form, but just that's what I wanted to say. I think just what I wanted to present at the moment is just about this, thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you. I will initiate Q&A now, yes, there is one question from Sunil Kullar, Japanese 46th scanner, there is no ja and no pa, this is one question from the audience. Yes, okay, okay, I can now, what should I do now? You can answer the question, I'll read out the questions from the chat box. Can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, I can hear you now, sorry, just yes, okay. So there is one question, how come there is no ja or pa in Japanese 46th scanner? Like accent rays you are asking, the French accent or German umraut and that kind of thing, yes, we have of course, so I didn't explain that, but then in typography you have to actually use the square format and then put like a little accent within it, and then so more than 46 of course in that sort of sense, yeah, so like a hahipu heho, you know, five characters become pappipu pepo, and then we place circle accent on top of it, just right hand side top is normally, and then um the different um ways that two dots instead of a circle then that's become ga, gi, gu, geiko, instead of kakiku, geiko, yeah, so um yes probably you need um instead of 46, but um nearly 100 for each hiragana and katakana, so it's um very much um you know the English they don't have an accent, but um some European languages they have quite a lot of even characters are different, yeah. Okay, there is one request from the audience, if you can switch on your video they want to see you, um what should I do, if I just open it, click it, on the left side there is one yeah video icon, okay, there you can start video, start video, okay, then everybody can see you, of course many of us have, yeah, thank you very good, you're talking typography day in IDC, yes it's uh oh nice to see you, a bit embarrassing I mean, but um it's um it's the size of all of the head is very big and then the mine is small, that's because I have a swollen head, no, no I'm sitting close to it so I can step back, there you go, exactly, right okay yeah I'm a desktop so that's why perhaps yeah yeah um you must be a smaller computer screen, but shake up your mic sir as a question for you, yes, Japanese design is so simple but at same time why graphic and packaging is so busy, um they um yes they what it meant is the graphics on on the packaging it looks very complicated or crowded and very busy like a crowded street, um do you think um it's um um can you help me um some example of a hacker Kamath is attending this so he will definitely write something now there are many people in the audience have written a very insightful presentation thank you very much we appreciate your presentation, then there was a logo you had done where the Scala typeface was used so in the redesigned version have you done any modification in the letter forms apart from the spacing, X height it's everything is so different and did you say it would have been an X height yeah I mean you kind of tweaked a bit they um everything is in you know cast in the square body whether that's a single stroke character or you know 36 characters and it was talking specifically about the Scala solution the Royal Academy ah Royal Academy's one yes how um Scala is um they yes um they um they for redesigning um they um the Scala I mean not Scala I mean it's it's really the um I what should I say we do well you can actually you know with a computer you can distort it easily and which is if you say it's a redo and then you I could do it but um they I don't really remember um how much of uh you know the things that I changed it or but um the um slight difference actually makes the enormous difference in Latin alphabet to design it and arrange it um like um the old Johnstone which is the original Johnstone Johnstone designed it and um it's an increase of X height um it's only probably um just around five percent of X height um so um in order to make um the kind of um the more presence or robustness or and it's it's um it's it's a very subtle arrangement actually affects and which I didn't know when I started until I started redesigning it and I didn't have um typeface design experience before although a little bit of you know changing letters and things for just a general design um am I actually talking about right thing yeah I think so and um you know I I was um just um so-called schooly but really I mean five years in a design school in London um education and before that I never studied graphic design or typography in Japan I just learned by watching um professional designers and printers how they work because I was um it's a kind of coordinating and I'm a client side to make the publication and things for that and um so a little bit of um just a gist of it it's um kind of getting it but um then I became interested in the typography in Latin alphabet because Japanese I couldn't think of you know few thousand characters or more to deal with it it's um just uh no way I I wasn't really kind of you know they they're thinking to tackle anything that kind of way because there's so many other interesting things or you know attractive things so but ABC was um uh very much um um kind of in Japan is um um they they are popular because it's uh you know foreign and Japanese culture it's um they many adopted um logos and things are they common and and and um so that's the reason I wanted to study um typography and in Latin alphabet and then I found school and I came over here and then um certain things learned and then it was very much a good experience I enjoyed it and lucky enough I was given a job um then I started working for a design company and without knowing anything first day can you just make um the fatter version of Johnstone's underground alphabet and that's that's a brief and then how could could I do anything just you know fattening up and then so I started you know making it uh heavier character and um then heavy character is already there only just uh Johnstone bold is um the capital letters so um all I wanted is okay another 26 of lowercase letters so um how to make it and then so you know as I said I had no idea so I just started to fattening up from the Johnstone's regular uh weight uh standard one writer one and then obviously easily you can actually see it's um very difficult to make just a simply heavy character because it's um uh it's a counter is filling up and become too heavy or rather clumsy so um I just made slightly bigger uh excite in a way and um then um to to see how it works um then reducing the size uh by photographic means at that time no computers or no scanners so um but another lucky sort of occasion it's um I had a few um just single lenses some of them are uh convex and okay concave and concave lens is very useful for you actually observe things in a very small size immediately and in that way at least you can't measure it but you can actually feel you know the size um uh it's uh whether that's uh the visibility or readability or recognizability is um um it's works or not so um then just a normal photographic process to um the reducing it or enlarging it and observing it but I had to do very quickly because it's it's not you know the endless time is given because it's a commercial entity so and um so and then I I thought well in that case so why not um you know making regular wage side is slightly different as well and then regular wage um when it's smaller uh they reduce the size and rather kind of losing the robustness or strong kind of readability or recognizability so um that is actually only just a few percent different of actual the type height and that was um liberation and then and that's um actually first week I found I learned and they just um learned by myself and the reason is it's odd but the company actually I started working for is a graphic design company it's not like a monotype drawing office or you know limotype companies and so whether that's a lucky or not and then and the quickly I made um the regular and all together uh regular phase redrawing it just a lower case slightly bigger uh x height and then and um bold one is a completely new uh lower case it's much larger slightly even larger uh x height so uh and then um what I discovered was regular phase when it's smaller and slightly sort of um weak um it's the need to be more weight for um more general purpose so um I suggested rather than just the regular weight and the bold weight something in the middle medium weight would be a very useful so that's what I proposed to my boss first and then and made presentation um the panels showing it and um then but nowadays you know that sort of information I mean when you want to learn how to make a typeface and then almost every typeface is a medium and then light and then bold extra bold or semi bold or semi light or extra light and all the samples are there but um come to think of it it's um uh some 40 odd years ago and um it's completely different sort of but um only after 10 years from that time and they I came to know all been I mean all been a few years before that but all been under uh bling and you started the designing typeface on the screen and it's it's um then another 10 years and you know it's a kind of embryonic sort of you know the time of talking to each other on the screen but um that is really now uh you know become almost normal but somebody like me normally you know now particularly lockdown and then not talking to each other you know it's uh uh then I'm not used to but now it's amazing wonderful and they come to think of it actually um 1968 was the first time screen video screen to talk to it's on on the movie cinema I saw it's a 2001 space or they say and um that that is the beginning of my actually I would say career of typography because um I don't know how many people actually on the screen here saw that movie I really recommend how many typefaces are used for the titles and that was actually question I was asked because I was pretending I became interested in typography and I want to know and then somebody who is my mentor later and I actually somehow because he was a printer and so I wanted him to print the things for my company and he did beautiful printing and things so I invited him to see the the opening sort of you know premium uh you know the 2001 to see in Tokyo and Stanley Kubrick and great sort of and after we enjoyed the movie and the first question he asked me and did you notice the um the title what typeface is used because he knew all sort of things and you know uh the western typeface is everything and it's a another time I talk about him anyway and he was great and um but by that time I knew one typeface the gilsons here so uh not a gilsons sorry uh a futura I said the futura and then he said no no it's a gilsons what is gilsons and and and and uh he said last one uh the um all the uh you know the people who did the film made film and uh then it's all set in futura so starting from gilsons and then they finished with the futura and that was um very interesting thing you know when you compare and then uh novice you know they wouldn't really notice much of it but also what he asked me is in the middle of it and they like um they gorilla like sort of uh you know they pretty human sort of figures came out and uh they are running around and pick up a bone and then striking it and the bone actually jumps up into the air and then that's became uh the spaceship and then the story moving into the futura yeah so I have three more questions from the audience can I read it out yeah yeah so one is uh shaker comment sir has asked that um in japan lot of soft pale colors are used compared to india any reason for that like pastel shades very pale and pastel shades are used colors did I use such colors you know in japan in japan generally very soft and pale colors are used um when you compare it with bright colors in india well um they um I I think I have come across that sort of question and then one uh answer to it I heard of is um because Japan is um kind of from the um the warm temperature rather than the very hot and the strong sun or very extreme cold so um and then also surrounded by ocean and so moisture and um the kind of a they like a mist or fog uh foggy uh grand escape often um appreciated and and and then Japanese um national flower so-called um the um in india it's I see a beautiful orange color uh you know the illegal yes and then here in britain is a beautiful red roses and white roses and things but the japan is a pink um the sakura cherry blossom that kind of way and they yes comes think of it and it's they they have um yeah um I have another question for you how many what is the word count that a whole page of a broad sheet no newspaper will have in japanese type of looking how many characters huh how many words will fit into one full page was um here in japan they don't have a word of space okay so they only count characters and because it's a you know the punctuate uh punctuated by rather kind of um um squareish and fussy um the darkish uh kanji character um then between them is a uh the simple form of kana characters and the kanji characters are more like a root of the word and then uh kana characters are like conjunctions or prepositions or um you know the joining part of it and then um important um part is chinese origin kanji characters and so that is um percentage wise as I said maybe 20 percent oh so uh yeah and some of them uh well if um you know the um the contents is um buddhism to explain or then probably 50 percent of kanji characters in a much darker sort of and newspaper companies normally have um need seven to eight thousand characters to set normal news I don't know another question for you new fonts are designed every day almost like mass manufacturing new designs with different softwares I would like to know your views on type design for the future um they I would guess variable fonts because you know you're able to build in so much intelligence in the shape of each character that you should be able to flex it depending on context which will become very useful on screens and different orientation and if it's done at a very very subtle level it can do remarkable things see right now you you have super families that run into hundreds of different characters and I would guess most people would find it hard to use that whereas if you have something that's intelligence based that uses variable widths or height or x height so any number of parameters you could do unbelievable things on the fly depending on context well um the other one font um is actually it's um the algorithm is based on still very much um the um the you know which way to vector to write and things it's a normally um you know um I think every um typeface designers when they want to change the weight and um you know the the um the angles you know more sloped uh form of letters and things and they we use but that's a bit more automatically you can do it and then um so still um basic um the training uh of typeface designers or and then future designers it's a it's a still um form basic form is the um unchanged really I mean you have to still judge the um proportion is right or wrong I don't argue that at all but I think the possibilities of doing things are enormous but but the ultimate test is the judgment yeah and then and then and um also it's not just the only typeface um actually it's um um because you know the how we see it is um uh if medium is small or bigger and then you have to change the um and then that's also probably everything is built in together so um it's still um it's um it's it's um it's a judgment isn't it yeah so individual judgment um whether that can be done in a similar way of um driverless car yeah and uh then in that case it's uh no judgment is necessary judgment is where you want to go and then get on and what do you read uh what you want to read and then easy to read but so more like a driverless car actually give you um you know most comfortable position of um traveling speed or you know um softness of you know relaxation or whatever so yes um definitely um very very highly developed artificial intelligence is necessary for um judging even the other person's feelings yeah it is but um you know i i it's it's a possibility in a in a utopian future yeah yeah so judgment will happen outside our heads yes so i'd like to conclude here i want to thank both of you for uh all the help and your wonderful presence and your support for this initiative called typography society of india on behalf of the entire team i would like to express my gratitude to both of you is don't do that okay see coming and joining us thank you very much um it's it's a i'm sorry and i um i you know sort of i had a problem first on the computer itself and then swerving and then also you know still um the the uh the chaotic to uh explain this is a bit digressing we should to have both of you with us well that's kind of you most people don't say that in a pleasure thank you thank you bye