 Hola community, welcome to a special episode today of not Blender today, but GIMP today or something like that We are well this week was a special week in the the Blender studio and the headquarters because it was just it wasn't just Blender people but actually people from another very popular open source project open source graphics Project the GIMP so welcome and what's your name and what do you do at GIMP? So my name is Jean I'm one of the two maintenance of GIMP and I've been contributing to GIMP since 2012 And that's most mostly it I know actually I work with Film director, so we do 2d animation. It's a realm. We do the summer mod project So that's how I that's how I got involved with development of GIMP because they were bugs so we need to then fixed then we needed features and That's how I make more and more patches and yeah How about you? My name is Simon. I'm involved a little bit longer with GIMP I'm involved with the GIMP project since about 1998 or something like that and Yeah, I was basically interested in graphics and at that time I was basically discovering Linux and graphics on Linux basically meant GIMP. So Yeah, at some point I got involved into the development and I'm still sticking around Nice. All right So I have to move this microphone all over the place because I'm usually by myself here This is where I do the blender today live streams so in Blender today, I usually talk about what Blender is and the community around it whenever I notice there is a new GIMP release Especially I mentioned or other open source software too. I personally use Mainly GIMP and in scale on my on my workflow every day like the all the the images and social media that you use And it's all made that with GIMP. So I'm pretty happy to have the team over here So this week was Wilbur week, right? You it's like a like a conference like a hackathon like a what what is it? Is it for users only for developers or? Mainly I think it compares to hackathon. That's a pretty good description. I think we've been those doing these for quite a while now Mostly connected to other events So as first we had a GIMP conference the t-shirt I'm actually wearing is the first GIMP hacking conference. We did in Berlin 2000 yeah This is where basically we tried to connect all the GIMP developers because mostly they are distributed across the world and Yeah, that was actually the first time I met all those faces to the isenix basically How many people contribute to GIMP nowadays? How many would you say developers are? It changes a lot You have to make the distinction between How many people have contributed the GIMP which is a huge list Across the last 25 years and how many people are currently contributing to GIMP which is a way smaller list So GIMP is probably a smaller project than you would Assume from its reach basically so it's like I don't know 10 to 20 people. Yeah, it really depends how you can't they're like I will say I will say like Yeah, 10 at a single point in time 10 People contributing regularly but regularly could mean like one patch every two or three weeks and like usually People will like contribute daily Well, it's simple Since since I came here the most we had was like three people basically Okay, like doing like really like all the time patches. Yeah All right, so let's see a bit. What do you work on this week? There is a small presentation that the team here did so I think I don't ask you to to give some sort of Like a recap right now of the of what you did we hear the studio every Friday we we do this basically what with the studio and It's nice to see that you also manage to do a similar concept. So Wilbur week I know you having this enough. It's where we're in Amsterdam So I see that you've been here in the north or somewhere having having fun, but also Cooking right there was a special kind of With this you can actually go and kind of put it in front of people to protect their privacy. That's good privacy Exactly don't don't use game for this just make a pizza and then you can protect privacy who needs stickers, right? Also that you were saying at a boat. So it's a proper Pirate hackathon right in a way and you this is this this is amazing This like so what came out of out of this basically like a 2 a.m. Hacking. Yeah Yeah, actually a lot. We had a lot of a lot of patches This week and it's how also you see how we put on this kind of commit even so because there are some contributors who would don't have a lot of time anymore and we've been here for a long time and But when they come here and for one week they just focus on game and then suddenly you have like a huge flow of commits and everything on the bug fixing or Yeah, I'll call the new code new when you saw new implementations and Yeah, so a lot of lot of it come came from it. Yeah, a lot of it in the presentation you gave you also mentioned that Game used to have a lot more action like commits in its in the shape of commits in the past As compared as right now, especially after after cobit, but it's picking up speed as yeah, you are Showing this week alone 117 commits, which they are Mainly bug fixes I heard. Yeah, it's a lot of bug fixes way. Yeah, there were a lot of Issues that were discovered after like a glib change. Yeah, it's also the bug when gimp but the bug were hidden by The implementation of the library we were using and we suddenly discover them and so we had to to fix Yeah, many many issues In the studio here, you also had meetings with people from other places, right? You mentioned is a developer working on the Wayland support Yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah in well and color management is still like very much walk-in progress Yeah, so actually this this session specific session came up with a lot with There was one in scape developer on on master don't who who sent a message and say, oh We'll be nice to speak about color management with game and say, oh, we are organizing the will by week like in one month And maybe if you want you can come and we can discuss in real So this specific developer didn't come because he is in the u.s. He prefer not to to do the travel but towards a windscape contributor came and then we thought okay, let's discuss about color management and then Since we had blender, so let's include a blender developer. So there is one who came and discussed with us And since we have some contributors, which also work with red art and well on and GTK and everything they They got in touch with one of the main Well on developer, yeah So and that's how we we we just it's kind of happen like kind of Organically, it was not So this is what everything you've been doing this week backfixes google summit of code meetings backfixes feature Feature features decision discussions. So the roadmap also backfixes work on in on the theme It's always important backfixes preparing for the next year's will bear week. Do you know already? Where in which country is it going to be? Where this? Yeah, probably. Yeah, I guess the thing we are currently looking at is a place near Barcelona Oh nice And we have been there already, but this time The last time it was quite cold there and heating was a little bit problematic So this year we plan to do it in august. So heating will be problematic the other way around Cooling will be paramount. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but uh, but yeah, well, Barcelona is it's extremely nice. Do you um Do you still go to liver and graphics? Meeting is this do you plan as acid to the friend events like liver graphics and wilver week? Do you think Originally, um, if you look at the history, basically the the livery graphics meeting is something that evolved from the gimp developer conferences At some point we had our conference and thought it would be nice to to Contact other projects basically to to make sure at that time there was quite some discussions about how cut and paste could work with inkscape and how this would How how we could agree on common standards basically so that stuff basically works and so, um, Dave neary at that time was was a gimp contributor and he Got involved very much into the organizing the first livery graphics meeting in lyon. That was like 2005 and um so, um This is basically the the origin story of of the livery graphics meeting of course it's and it I personally believe that it's quite an important conference and um Yeah, that was an a blander developer fucking Um, because um, you you have this conference where you where The different projects meet talk a little bit about about problems basically a little bit on the on the developer focused side like how how do you do stuff? What were the inter inter interesting problems for you and also a specific focus on Um contacting or Creating Meeting meeting artists were actually using our programs because there are not that many opportunities where these two groups Really have an opportunity to meet. Uh, so, um, there were also presentations or there are also presentations about art projects And uh, yeah, so so basically making a meeting place for Yeah developers differ between different projects basically exchanging ideas exchanging Approaches to certain problems maybe but also, um, how do artists actually use our stuff and uh, yeah So basically eye-opening for everybody So and yeah, the the problem currently is that in the last three years or four years Last last library graphics meeting was 2019 then due to kovat mostly everything basically Stopped so and we now need to to kickstart it again basically Yeah Yeah, I really like the concept of a of a library graphics meeting You know to get all the open source projects, uh together blender should be there more often too as well They Come on Mitch is coming. All right. We have more people This also meant no game the other yeah, that's the camera. I need to be here. All right. This is very, uh Unexpected. So who are you and what do you do? I'm Mitch. I'm the other maintainer of gimp and I'm just coming back to the project after two years of hibernation under a stone Basically, and what do you mean by a maintainer? What do you do back fixing or you focus on a specific? Currently, I'm just fixing bucks. Yeah, okay. I'm back for two days and fix them back. So It's going well. You're literally two days. Yes, since since the beginning of the beginning of the of the of the meeting friday Oh, wow That's good to hear Nice, so I guess that and I you're here to stay you're gonna continue on the project Yeah, sure for the okay. Yes. So part of the the gimp 3.0 project Exactly. Nice because you also talked about that in the well besides back fixes in the In the in the in the map for this for this week So well also logo updates, which are always like a big number change always good to To do I we personally at blender. I think the community are trying to Make us change the logo, but we're all pretty happy with it Which also happens But yeah, wilber foundation that is something that was that I think it's it's it can potentially change Like for the better the how people see the The project we we've seen it well blender foundation This is how it's how blender started but crita foundation also exists godot foundation recently So it only makes sense to have one for For gimp and projects related to gimp, right? Exactly. Yeah, so Can you talk about the river foundation? So right now it's still a plan And we have been discussing With a host foundation To help us because basically on all the administrative part and everything and Well, we we are basically geeks. So we don't read so And that's something. Yeah, we want to try to get our own entity basically to be able to do our own choices and And Founding development too. So like some some yeah Some of the contributors are like doing this other side or as they own the business And some like like me or peeping with a giggle maintenance giggle is our graphics engine Actually trying to make a living with free software and it's hard actually Uh, so that's why we thought like maybe what if like if we had like a single entity people donate and then Then can helps And and and something we are really trying to do also is like to keep the spirit of Like the community like this something For me, which is very important that like gimp is not just a free software. It's a community free software And uh, and that's something which I really like about this project and this team Is that we like like it's it's uh Yeah, it's it's not it's not like a business It's we do stuff that we care about and everything and that's uh So that's what we are trying. We don't know yet if we I hope we will succeed but to make this foundation But uh, yeah, that's that's planned Nice, it's always good to hear to make things, uh more. Yeah more clear where where where Where things go and what is the transparency behind a project because you wanted to see it success, right? the next uh topic you mentioned also was Gimp 3.0 Which is kind of a big deal, right? You've been and for how long in in the the 2.x Years Well, I mean we started the the branch for the the goat invasion that was like Pippin was hanging at my place and we just did it that was like 2014 or 12 2012 just after after 28. Yeah. Yeah, but uh, but then they were not that many For like many years not that many commits on it's really the big work started on on 210, which is 2018 after 210 Yeah, so So it's kind of a big deal in Is this like you are you familiar with the blender 2.8 project where in 2018 we flew everyone here for many months just to Uh to to get over with it because it we also been stuck with the with the 2.x series forever And the 2.8 was like a step towards 3.0 and since then Yeah, you basically have to remove a bunch of things clean up clean up clean up and then you can make a clean slate for What's in the yeah in the coming future? Is this 3.0 also a similar project? If do you think with all the all the work that it's being done would it um, like uh, Make more people want to contribute like in development or in like be involved with the roadmap I think because just if at all because gtk will be a newer version So maybe a lot of people will be willing to contribute and Yeah, um And also it will of course every big release get gives visibility to the project So we always have new people But uh, yeah, I can't but you want it maybe to say something Yeah, I don't yeah, basically what you said basically a big release is is a big big thing basically, which also in some some To a certain degree indicates that well this pro a project is still alive at kicking basically So which is not always that visible So And the the port of gtk 3 is important The the main reason is that unfortunately the version of gtk is part of our Internal api. So if you want to develop a third party plugin for the game You would have to depend on the same version of gtk where gimp is depending on because the Lipgimp provides certain widgets which are make product development way easier and stuff like this So this is basically also what kind of kept us back with uh, we we could just not port gimp 2 To gtk 3 because this would break the api compatibility So that is a major issue and so this is what we will Kind of resolve with a port gtk 3 because when we change the major version we are free to uh, break api compatibility basically Have you properly broke it just like Everything is different now like much better. Everything is better now. So So I guess the next question is like, okay, so what about gtk 4 at some point? We try not to think about that just We have other problems now. Yeah Yeah, but also I guess A cleaning up from gtk 2 to 3 would probably make it like whatever next update Maybe it's here in a way Like the same way we we I oh, sorry They always try to connect it with with blender because of our blender audience But we had we had that too like we are stuck with open gl 1 one at the beginning 1.5 and then when we made the jump to the next open gl 2 and then like 3.3 It may things easier and vulcan hopefully is gonna be one other level So I guess it's a similar concept, right? The step from gtk 3 to 4 is certainly much smaller than the step from gtk 2 to 3 But the migration guide is still very Yes, I read it and it's still a lot of work But we have much less shit in the code than we did with gtk 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah that that for sure. I don't know how all this gtk 2 But just you just by looking at it you can tell that That it's uh, yeah, that it's a bit behind So just if I can add something because I know that's On the internet you read all kind of stuff and like some people seem to think of them. We are like against Moving to gtk 4 something It's just that I think like current developers we don't We it will We won't spend a lot of time now because we already spend too much on gtk 3 and we are tired But if like if tomorrow some developer comes with a patch and it's all all working and it's uh, Gim3 becomes Get on gtk 4 with you say, oh, yeah, well, why not, you know, that's that's it And I are certainly wise to prepare the code for gtk 4 migration without actually moving to gtk 4. Yeah, that's um And rest assured if anybody comes with a ready-made patch for gtk 4 you are inverted to the next few wilbur weeks as well Nice So okay, so drinks on you for whoever comes with a new patch. Yeah um, so uh besides that you also have some plans for it With wayland multi-layer selection this I'm so happy to see this already in the 2.99 that version some of it, right? 2.99 that is extensively gtk 3 Oh, really that is that that is what is becoming gtk a gim3. I mean, okay. Yeah, so that's a developed That is the current version. Yeah, so okay Interesting. Yeah, I always thought of uh, 2.99. That's okay. There is no more At nothing else after 99. So it must be the development version. Yes If 2.99 is finished then it will be renamed gtk gim3 Game 3. Yeah, it's just a rename. Exactly. Yeah, it's just a rename And then which one would be the development version of 3.1? 3.1 So it was 3.1 actually it's like 3.1 because I'm even miners releases odd miners are development versions. So We start on after right after we Release gtk 3 we will branch off gtk 3 the branch gtk 3.0 And a development continues on on gimp. Sorry gimp 3.0 and development continues on gimp 3.1 That's always the development branch. Nice. So kind of changing also to a more semantic ish We already have standard for 20 years or so. That's always been the case. Okay. Nice We followed the gtk naming version naming gim in that and that works pretty neat Yeah, okay. Cool. Yeah, okay. So it's only blender that was laid to the party and From 2.93 to 3.0 Other than that everything looks looks looks pretty sweet. Where can people get this down? By the way, do you have like a like a build bot? Or like a like a place where people can the No for like if people want to want to test these things and now there is the Blender like the blender. So you go to download. Yeah And then this just scroll down a bit and then here development download page. Nice 2.99 for team Already and that's that's what's On the walk to become gimp 3.0 It's also really easy to build from it like I built him for the first time last week And it was really only matter of check out configure build and done But for people who don't want to build you just click and you download and you click install Yes, yeah, I can tell for experience that even though blender is very easy to to build as well We even have scripts for it that will get everything and compile it for you people still Like we get as almost as many downloads from the from the development builds that we get from the actual It's crazy. It's crazy. People are really Thirsty thirsty for for development. That's that's awesome. I didn't know so current development release. So you actually do Release a development version. It's not like an ongoing release Yeah, we release it and basically we Then people just have to be aware that it's a development version. So things things will be broken And like dailies. Yeah, it's it's yeah, but More like Six months ago so But then people can can report bugs and so so Yeah, you can use it in production, but just Uh, yeah, just know know that it's it's a development. Yeah, but it's probably less broken than 2.10 On some ways, but on other ways it's more broken, but on some ways. Yeah. Yeah, but you can use it It does not it will not explode in your face. Sure most of the time We do use it already. Okay us. Yeah, all right I think I might switch to the development version because I basically for for what for what I do I think I could benefit from the from the from the What are you sure here in the now in the annual report in the actually on the home page of of uh game play so that you have also a roadmap somewhere here Plans for 23 game 3 and you talk about here about a bit about Yes, about the roma for three So Yeah, yeah, but basically I was explaining how uh How we are trying to get uh fast. Yeah, like faster development cycles With which actually started with 2.10 already basically having Having new features even in in in micro versions because a lot of people used to think that Gimp was game development was dead because they they will not get new features because In between 2.8 basically and 2.10 they were six years Yeah, six years. Yeah, we were actually releasing every few months, but like People kind of don't see when it's just a bug fix somehow. Yeah, and uh, you know, we changed it with 2.10 So that's why we say in 2.10. We have new features in 2.10. We allow new features Except of course big ports ports and stuff, but a new plug-in or a new gaggle operation. Yeah, reverse them. How really? Yeah So So let's look forward to uh, when do you like well now is that question? I think I don't know. I think we Oh, yeah, yes Yes, last night. There was a a movie night here. We were watching star wars vision and uh game sponsor the pizza Which you thank you very much for that. It's a pizza night at the at the studio and to we continue it on the next next Wilbur week So you gave up this presentation to date and also invited you to have as To to even prepare another wilbur week if you want And uh, you also where are you most of you based in germany or Germany, Germany, no way But we have people from canada from everywhere But mostly europe Well, not necessarily Yes, ish. Yeah, uh one person from brazil was supposed to come but unfortunately couldn't make it Again, we have one person from canada here. So this one from us Right a recent contributor, but we would we did a lot of things recently And it was supposed also to come and didn't at the end other things Came up. Yeah, so yeah a lot from everywhere actually. Yeah, all right. So well Then I will see you then in the in the next wilbur week when uh, so speaking of 3.0 just to close up When can people expect in the in the coming year in this year in this century in this We'll try to manage this century basically so But uh, well, we don't like making promises, but uh game three is kind of done. Yeah, I mean it's uh, I think we can If if mich stays this time, I think we can we can uh, we can finish it this year. I mean it's it's uh, it's us Actually in the Report you just showed before I was saying already. I think we can have a Uh release candidate this year But at the time I was like kind of alone doing most of My coding and reviewing other people's coding and everything so Now if uh, if we are two Uh, it should be possible. Uh, we should be able to release not just release candidates even release, you know So All right Well, I mean you can actually release as soon as the external api is finished and the remaining bugs will be fixed in micro versions I mean there are always remaining bugs. Yeah, and crashes. That's you can't avoid that It's and the the sooner you put it out there, but also maybe it should update the development version to be like like More recent, right? Yeah Yeah We need to make a splash from the photo from the Okay, I'm gonna be looking forward to that because if you manage to release this year and blender manages to release this year, which is Wait, we're still in the plans will be blender four game three Uh, we we saw godot four also. So all this open source software reaching major releases. It's always a good So it's a good thing. All right. So thanks again for coming and thank you. Thank you. Thank you See you in the next, uh, Willer week Bye