 It might spark something for me. Is it okay if I take my notes out? Cause like I wrote down all of the stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Cause I was like, I tried to write on anything he might like say and just in case cause I have like notes or different things. Today we're going to talk about the Tisha Stouck and Greg why don't you tell us about the videos we're going to watch. So let me first start by saying you probably know more about this case than we do. We're going to watch this video specifically and these are clips from the police interrogation, you know, Paso County, Colorado, two days after her stepson came up missing, who later was found dead in Florida and had been murdered. We'll leave it at that, but she creates some elaborate story. I need to give you just a little backstory. She creates an elaborate story that includes fire and damage to the house and the child saying he had stomach issues and she gave him this candle to take away some smell and that caused burn carpet. That has to be what you know for backstory. The truth of that story is much more horrific and then just dive into that yourself. Okay, yeah. So what I want you to do is take me through Sunday into Monday and be as detailed as possible as to what you were doing, who was there, where you were at, how long you spent, et cetera, et cetera. Because the more detail I have, it might spark something funny. Is it okay if I take my notes out? Cause like I wrote down all of this stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Cause I was like, I tried to write on anything he might like say and just in case cause I had like notes from different things or whatever. So we already talked about the beginning things, definitely reading that man. So my paper is that we got the same story that we started with, then you want me to start with Sunday, which was the day that we went hiking, right? Yes. Okay. So we went hiking at Garden of the Gods. We actually, did you see the picture from Garden of the Gods? I did. Okay. So we have pictures where we went to Garden of the Gods. We were going to take the dogs for a walk but then my daughter got caught in to work cause she works at the side duty. Okay. So we were like, okay, we're going to go hiking. We, crazy thing is like it's always like one kid likes to hike a lot, the other one don't. So you get the whole time like, come on, let's go. We got to burn calories, excuse me. All this type of things. Again, then he started having a stomach problem and he pooped in the sand. So it kind of caught our hike a little bit short, but I was like, it's okay. It was kind of cold. I say cold for me, but I'm used to like 80 degree weather. So it kind of get cold. All right, Greg, what do you got? So we start off with this cop having built rapport. You didn't see that part of the video but in the video, she actually talks to her. She says, hey, I got to do some obligatory things. She reads your Miranda and that kind of thing. So she can start her talking and gets her to where she feels comfortable. This woman feels comfortable for a reason, you can tell. She's created a story. In this story, when we talk about it in the true crime workshop, we say, there's a trigger, there's fabrication, there's de-conflict thing in your head. There's pitch, there's defend, and that puts you back into having to create, to fabricate and to de-conflict and and and, and you get in a circle. If you do a good job, you put them into a spiral and death spiral and that life falls apart. She's ready. She's either one of two things. She pre-meditated this murder for a long time where she is crazy and really good at doing it in the past 48 hours, which means a whole lot of past experience lying. Either way, what she's doing up front here, she's created some kind of story to justify her later lies when she's talking about this whole carpet thing and this fire. So watch when the cop starts to sound like a cop. Suddenly, watch the barriers come up, her touch your face to an intake breath. She does romance her, locks eyes with her and makes sure that she's getting what she wants. Interesting for me, if you ask a person who has lived through a horrific story, if I asked Chase about an incident involving some violence in the military, that entire thing is horrific and violent and everything about it. He's gonna talk about, I got up Tuesday morning. He's not gonna go, I got up Tuesday morning. It's not the way people remember stories. When a person comes in and the only horror is when the event happens, you need to be suspicious. So let's pay attention to that. There's so much here, I'm gonna just do a couple more. She's got notes, she's got notes. Oh, and photos. If you're talking about building a backstory, what a hell of a backstory to build. This is her chaff baseline. She's not using redirect, she's coming in prancing with enough information to protect her. If you guys remember Rebecca Fenton, I wanted for nothing. Had the toilet in her bedroom, you remember that one? She did this. She came in with da-da-da-da-da-da, like nothing horrible that ever happened. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. And I think that just the phrase of, and we took photos and we have photo evidence of that, essentially is what she's saying, is the biggest red flag in the world. If something happened, you already know what happened and you were a witness to what happened, you don't need to provide photos there. That is it. I heard that one line and I knew something's extremely wrong with this. And I don't know much about the case. Let's look at the behavior of somebody missing a child. Would a reasonable person think they needed permission to take some notes out of their pocket to help locate the child? Would a reasonable person think that using notes to help locate a child might look guilty? So just using this standard here, we can see the behavior of guilt or shame. Guilty people are more likely to need rapport with interviewers and investigators. You're gonna see permissive behaviors here that otherwise would be completely absent in a reasonable person. So why would this person feel the need to be kind and ensure they were making eye contact, both interviewers the entire time? There's not a whole lot of clusters of behavior here because I think she spent a whole lifetime lying. But the verbal stuff gives it all away and that's why that's so important. So much of this is probably all true and it gives us an opportunity to maybe develop a little weird baseline, this chest touching here, which is how we indicate sincerity, this hunched forward position where we, this is the soft spot on our bodies and I'll pass it to Mark to kind of talk about how we bend over and kind of protect that. Just overly animated and just rapid assessment. So this back and forth between both of the interviewers is not making eye contact socially. This is an assessment to make sure that her story is being believed, Mark. Yeah, so under stress, under pressure, you will often find that people will protect the belly area, the underneath the arms here, neck around here, crunching and turtling, as we call it, often bring the legs in so the arteries in the thigh area, in a thigh area, groin area are protected, wrist areas, joints get protected and so often we're looking out for that and of course, as I said before, that stomach area. So we have got that crunch in of the stomach. Though interesting, isn't it? Because they behave your panel. Have you ever Googled someone and then been shocked to see the personal information exposed on one of those public listing sites? I just Googled one of our upcoming subjects and I'm amazed by the private information that is on the net about them, even their home address. 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You can either let people continue to exploit and profit off your private information or you can go to aura.com forward slash T-B-P to start your two week free trial. Also linked below in the description. We behave your appennal. Though there's a massive difference between the interviewer and the subject in terms of relaxation, the interviewer, very, very relaxed. The subject on the edge of the seat, a little more tense, still very relaxed in the storytelling around a crime going on. Now, as is often the case, I have no idea what's going on here in terms of the crime. I came to this having no understanding who this is, what the crime is. So my initial situation here is number one, like welcome to Grandma's house. This is an interesting decor here for an interview room. Soft, comforting, a little fusty, maybe, a little dowdy in many ways. I don't know what's trying to be achieved from that. Maybe that's budget, maybe that's purposeful. Not quite sure on that. But there we have somebody very relaxed in Grandma's house and another little more edge of their seat in Grandma's house. But look, somebody's been read their rights, as Greg says. So there's a crime gone on. There's two interviewers there. You've been brought in. There's a crime gone on. I'm not even sure why she's not a little more tense, a little more eager in this situation. Storytelling, very, very relaxed there. Yeah, I think the notes is very, very interesting. What's the upside of the notes for her? Well, upside is she can keep referring back to the story. She can use the notes not only as a physical barrier, but a mental barrier as well. It'd be very easy like we might do with politicians or lawyers in fact to go, look, you know, as I said in my notes, so somebody can question you and you can keep going back and blaming the notes rather than your memory getting the story wrong. So, you know, as we go forward, hey, maybe those notes will be a great barrier for her in some way downside to it is somebody else can refer back to those notes. They're written down. They're evidence in themselves of an idea that somebody's had. So again, let's see what happens with those notes in the next video, but interesting start for me simply in the difference between the interviewer and the subject here. Scott, what do you got on this one? All right, I agree with you, Chase. This thing right out of the, you know, shoot, 30 seconds in and you go, oh, you gotta be kidding me. She takes notes out and you're right, Greg, that she's totally prepared for this. She's, she's so prepared. I've never seen this before. Has anybody ever seen anybody take notes out? No, I mean, not just even in person, but I mean, on videos or anything. I would cough some. Yeah, but that's incredible. And she's telling about the detail she has, the smile she's showing, the mood she's in totally goes against somebody who should be in horror right now, should be sad, should be out of their mind, depressed over this, trying to rethink what could I have done to make sure this didn't happen or make, you know, to keep it on and whatever it is. Unbelievable, a whole lot of adapting going on there. Whole lot of adapting, everything from the neck rub. She runs her hand all the way down her neck. We can say that goes to the Superstar Lodge where women or men will also touch their Superstar Lodge, but she just doesn't do that. She rubs her whole neck. She's trying so hard to get rid of this built up stress and tension. She just looks like a little toy or something that's been wound up and just been around that couch. So her legs are going back and forth. She's readjusting all the time. She looks like Tom Arnold. Remember Roseanne Arnold's husband? He never could sit still. He was all whacked on dope. He would just get so wired. He just couldn't sit still. That's what she reminded me of was that. And you're right, Greg. The romance is over the top, man. Just trying to lock in, smile, put them in a good mood. I don't know why they're not going. Listen, we're moms too. We can't wait. What, you know, how can you not stop and say, you've got to be kidding me. You have to be kidding me here. Why are you not feeling any of this? But being professionals, I can't do that. What else? I've got so much on this. And I agree with you. She's a professional liar. This isn't her first time she's done this. She's one of those that's been doing her whole life just for sport. So those kind of people, it's nothing for them to say. She's got her protocol I'm sure she uses when she backs up her fake stories and her lies. Whole thing. She's ready to go on this. She's prepared to lie. And boy, she's given it the best shot she possibly can. All right. We good? Yeah. Greg, I'll give you that one. One of those tape replays. Okay. Yeah. So what I want you to do is take me through Sunday into Monday and be as detailed as possible as to what you were doing, who was there, where you were at, how long you spent, et cetera, et cetera. Because the more detail I have, it might spark something funny. Is it okay if I take my notes out? Because I wrote down all of the stuff on the slide. Yeah, absolutely. Because I was like, I tried to write on anything you might say and just in case because I have notes from different things or whatever. So we already talked about the beginning things. I figured you were reading that, man. So my paper is that we got the same story that we started with, but then you want me to start with Sunday, which was the day that we went hiking, right? Yes. Okay. So we went hiking at Garden of the Gods. We actually, did you see the picture from Garden of Gods? I did. Okay. So we have pictures where we went in Garden of Gods. We were gonna take the dogs for a walk, but then my daughter got caught in to work because she works at Massage. Great. So we were like, okay, we're gonna go hiking. We, crazy thing is like, it's always like one kid likes to hike a lot. The other one don't. So we spent the whole time like, come on, let's go. We gotta burn calories. Excuse me. All those type of things. Gannon, he started having a stomach problem and he pooped in the sand. So it kind of cut our hike a little bit short, but I was like, it's okay. It was getting kind of cold. I say cold for me, but I'm used to like 80 degree weather. So it's kind of getting cold. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's you. So I did. I pulled up on the back part. There was some new houses being built and there was some like Hispanic and I'm not saying that to be like too much where they were Hispanic people that were out there. And I was like, hey, do you know where you can get the carpet that is in the Lourdes and Ranch model home? So I told him the model home, which was the same home that we had. I mean, I don't know if it's the model home, but I gave him the name. Cause I asked, like I looked online for the company for the name. And I said the same thing. And I see that everybody has that same carpet. Yes. So we got a role of the car, like a role of the carpet. Where'd you get that from? This is, we got it from the guy on the scene. Like I saved out a scene, but the construction area. So we got the carpet from the guy on the construction area. Well, I didn't get it then. He said he was going to bring it to me. So I gave him the address and this is where I messed up. I gave him, and this is why I couldn't tell you this in front of Albert. I gave him our code to get in. He was going to go fix it. And I just assumed working in the house, he was going to be okay, you know, whatever. And me and Dan and Lyft, I just said, hey, this is- Do you give him the garage door codes? Yeah. And what about the alarm? Well, if you go in through, say, like you're walking in through our house, there's no sensor. So we always keep it on our alarm and you can walk in through the garage in the alarm. We never set off all, never. And the reason for that is like, there's no door. Like there's nothing that tells that door that it's open. You can send. So you don't have a sensor there. Right, right, right. So we always, and the kids come in every day in the garage and never have to like, set, you know, reset, anything like that. All right, Chase, what do you got? This interview is about trying to locate a missing child. So it's good we can analyze videos where known information is there to both continue collecting data for ourselves and known circumstances. We can also show you how the behaviors we see when we think someone are guilty are also still here in large measure. And I want you to watch her even as a decent liar when she says messed up, those two words. She describes giving this guy the house code in the same way someone would tell a friend that they accidentally scratched their car. Innocent people don't try to build a strong rapport and trust with interviewers like you're seeing here. There's a few powerful reasons that guilty people do this like you're seeing in this clip. They typically want to manipulate or distract the interrogators. They think they might be able to control the narrative if somebody likes them. They want to minimize the stress that they're feeling in this situation and helps them to calm down. If that could just reduce the stress and make it feel friendly, helps me to calm down. And I think they're also trying to develop an empathetic response. So way down in their brain, they're thinking if I can get them to like me, they might let me go. Then I can probably get away with this. And finally, they're overcompensating. They might be overcompensating for guilt. So the feelings of guilt make them pretend to be a nicer person so that they feel less guilty about what they did. So those are the possible reasons that we might be seeing that here. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, and I'll take that same argument in a little couple of steps further. If you ever watch a matador when they're fighting a bull, they know the potential for death is right behind that cloak. She knows the potential for what's happening here is right behind her cloak, what she's holding up. And if you don't think she's doing that watcher, she flourishes and does all kinds of stuff. She's even gonna get up later and do all kinds of ridiculous things. You need to hang on on this one. This is one of the craziest things we've ever watched. But she has a plan. And that plan is that cape that a matador uses to distract the bull. And she's really bad at it. She just thinks she's good at it because she's never run into anyone who knows what they're looking for. She's lived in a place where she gets to dance around behind the cloak and nobody ever puts her on notice board. Or maybe they have, and she's moved around because she's moved around a fair amount too. What I would say is a prancer from True Crime Workshop is a person who is a show horse. They're putting on so much show that they must be telling the truth. They must be. She does a lot of chaff and redirects. Scott's wearing, lean up a little bit. Scott's wearing the shirt for it today. She does a lot of chaff and redirect. But she uses props. She's got notes. She's got pictures. She gets up and does stuff. She's an iterative storyteller. She's trying to give you this story a piece at a time so that you will later fill in the blanks for her. And she says, hey, there's this Hispanic guy. Well, she puts her hand on her chest like a Southern girl. She's from South Carolina, I believe, like Southern girl to say, oh, honestly. And then she describes this guy. And she says, this Hispanic guy. She talks about a Hispanic guy that she's gonna later tell us is the culprit. Whoever said, hey, I was at the store and there was a Hispanic guy. Then later the Hispanic guy came in and it did something in my house. And I didn't say, hey, there's this bad guy. There's no stress, nothing. As if she's saying, I saw this little puppy walking down the road, crazy, crazy. She's got a ton of leads everywhere she goes when she says that no offense. She's driving so that she gets you later to set up something for her and she can fill in a blank without having to have a conversation. You should pay attention when somebody does that and has. Why did they bring this up? There's a reason they brought up a guy about the carpet. Watch this lead detective now. She's buried, she's gripping that cloth, she's bracing her head. And then after the woman says she gives out her code, she goes to full barrier. She crosses her whole body. She's suspicious and the other one's gonna get there too. Chase, I think, was it you or Mark? Mark, I think, no, it's Mark and your peach stamping your feet. You see the foot stamp? As she explains why she stopped at job site, it was peach you were talking about. That's where that one came from. Look, there's so much stuff right here to just get me to jump all over her and pay attention. This is not the way any grieving person acts. And what she started off with is a great beginning of a normal talking person that might be saying, hey, here's what happened and my kid came up missing. Now has just turned into a whole lot of words and a whole lot of stuff to start to build a defense. Scott, you talk about other than walls. This is a wall made out of what this is and she's working it up. What you got, Scott? All right, I agree with you. There are no grief expressions here whatsoever. Nothing. If you just saw this, you'd think somebody might be in trouble for something, but it wouldn't be for what she's possibly gonna be in trouble for. Unbelievable, nothing which tells us she has no empathy for that child. There's nothing in there. I'm not gonna go ahead and say she's a psychopath. Sometimes it takes years to diagnose a psychopath properly and say, yeah, that's what's going on here. But boy, it sure is looking like it from what we're seeing so far. Their illustrators are getting smaller and smaller as she goes. Sometimes they burst out and get really big because of her confidence. But I think as she thinks through, as she's telling her story that she's prepped, she's still checking it as she goes. She's still checking the structure of it, make sure she's saying everything she should be saying correctly. We're starting to see her turtle a little bit more as well. She's starting to get down and hear a little bit more. And they start talking about the codes. That's when that starts. And you see her adapting with her hand and squeeze her hand and stuff. And the detectives are doing such a great job here. I've not just going, you gotta be kidding me. And look at the other one going, are you watching this? Because it's, and they're just sitting still. The one that's over on the bottom right, she kind of scratches here a little bit. That's about it. So it may be the confidence that they know they've got her and they're just watching this to educate themselves on this personality type. I don't know. What else we got? Lots of adapting. And she's hand-squeezing a little bit more than she has been at this point. I think it's because as her illustrators get smaller and she begins to turtle a little bit more, which is gonna come out of that in a minute. She's going to her hands. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so Greg, yeah, she has a plan. Well, everybody has a plan until they're punched in the face. And her plan, abandoned plan. Basically the notes are now down by her side. And she's never gonna touch them again. So anything that I said in the first video about like, well, let's see how she works that barrier. Let's see the body language that goes with this, with these notes. You know, I had high, high hopes that we'd be getting sound out of these notes. And you know, we'd be able to see that, you know, they would amplify what's happening with the body language. Well, no, completely abandoned that at this point. So even for somebody, as everybody's rightly saying, is most likely a practiced liar. In this situation, her plans seems to have gotten abandoned somewhat. So I think that's interesting because there is some incongruous relaxation to her storytelling, but at the same time, she's absolutely on the edge of her seat. Remember what Chase was saying? Remember what I then built on around this idea of the stomach being protected there. Other joints getting protected. Notice how the foot keeps going back to protect most likely the ankle. We'll see that ankle disappear very, very soon. Go back as we look at the replay and count up all those elements that you're seeing where she's protecting vulnerable parts on the body. At the same time, there's this barrage of information and it seems very confident. At the same time, the body language is telling us something completely different. And although, you know, I don't know the crime that, I mean, it's being explained to me as we go along, but I don't know the crime that's gone on here. Even if it were a small crime that she's in for there, you know, why this relaxed kind of way of delivering lots and lots of information at the same time, so much inconsistent barrier behavior and protective behavior doesn't make sense to me. Look, she's very, very erratic here. Is she fluid or staccato? Well, very, very staccato. Can she hold on to a pattern of movement for any length of time? No, the patterns of movement keep changing. Could be neurotype, could be stress, could be both at this point. But the interviewers, I absolutely agree, mirroring each other very much so, both put their notes down or to one side. Why is that? Why are they so relaxed? Why are they mirroring each other, keeping themselves locked up as she erratically gestures and changes? Well, I think what they're rightly doing here is just letting her talk it out. Just letting her, because she's gonna talk and talk and talk and talk and they're not having to do too much, only give her praise and a little nudge along to just talk more, talk more, talk more. So, plan's gone for her. Very interesting what's happening here. Yeah, I wouldn't dispute. So, I did. I put up on the back part, there was some new houses being built and there was some Hispanic, and I'm not saying that to be like discriminatory, there were Hispanic people that were out there and I was like, hey, do you know where you can get the carpet that is in the Lourdes and Ranch model homes? So, I told him the model home, which was the same home that we had. I mean, I don't know if it's the model home, but I gave him the name, because I looked online for the company for the name, and I said, it's in there, it says that everybody has that same carpet. Yes. So, we got a roll of the carpet. Where'd you get that from? This is, we got it from the guy on the scene. Like I said, we got a scene, but the construction area. So, we got the carpet from the guy on the construction area. Well, I didn't get it then. He said he was gonna bring it to me. So, I gave him the address. This is where I messed up. I gave him, and this is why I couldn't tell you this in front of Albert. I gave him our code to get in, but he was gonna go fix it. And I just assumed working in the house, he was gonna be okay, you know, whatever. And me and Dan and Lyft, I just said, hey, this is- Do you give him the garage door code? Yeah. And what about the alarm? Well, if you go in through, say like you're walking in through our house, there's no sensor, so we always keep it on our alarm, and you can walk in through the garage in the alarm. We never set off on, never. And the reason for that is like, there's no door. Like there's nothing that tells that door that it's open. You can send. So you don't have a sensor there? Right, right, right. So, we always, and the kids come in every day in the garage and never have to like set, you know, reset, anything like that. I think we might have different versions than I did on Android, so. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. So when you and Gannon are out running around to these places and, you know, getting your gas and your coffee and like Petco a couple of times, and does he go into the cars with you? No, but I parked, and I know you're gonna see this, so I'm gonna say that I parked on the front and like, I don't know if you could, you'll probably, if you see the Petco cameras. I'm in this, can I show you? Sure. I'm in the store a lot of times walking back to the front door doing this. And my point of doing that is because I was making sure that I didn't see him like, you know, if he needed something or like getting out or whatever. And we, he stays in the car like, I'll really just stay in the car all the time with like, if like, Lane is in the car and he'll be like, it's okay, stay here, stay here buddy, we'll be right back. Don't take anything of it because he had a switch with him and he was playing the switch. Did he know what store you were in? Yeah, Petco. So like, if he needed you or whatever else. Right, right, right. And I did keep walking to the door. Sure. But several times and I'm pretty sure I didn't know I'm the second visit to walking back to the door just to make sure, you know, I could be, I was like, oh, you know, sure if I need you or whatever. Sure. So yeah, you can see that on there. So when I, do you need to know like what I did in there? Or you just, or you're just in there shopping and then- It wasn't even a long shop. Like, like it wasn't. And then you come, they come back out and then where do you go? So I thought, I know we were right in that area like different places, but I don't think I stopped anywhere else specific to get anything other than Starbucks, I made a wrong turn. And then two times at Petco. And I was at the four Marshalls, but- After the second time at Petco, did you go anywhere? I think after that Petco is when we started to head home. Okay, so you go home. And I wanted to, I want to give you like an accurate of that if I pulled this up, because I don't, I feel like right after Petco is we were home. I don't wanna- Sure, if you want to try and bring it up. Yeah, I don't want you to think that I missed a stop or something. And I will tell you on the way, on the way there, we did stop and get gas somewhere. I can't remember if it was on the way there or way home. Do you remember what station? But we did stop and get gas. A shell getting 11. Here, I'm going to go on it. If you, do you gotta go? I hate to do this. Yeah, I need to, I need to run out. I'm gonna, I'm gonna come back. Okay. Okay. It shouldn't take me very long, hopefully. But please continue talking with Detective Houston and then whenever I get done with that I'm gonna come back in and we'll get back on again, right? Yeah, I'm trying to pull this up. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, here's what I see that seems, you know, so abnormal for any kind of situation like this. The dynamic range and the amount of the regulators and illustrators. Regulators, sometimes what I call moderators are the things that, you know, tell other people, look, I'm in charge of this. I'm gonna keep talking or might go, no, it's your turn. You give me. They're ways that we control to an extent conversation. So there's lots of those in there. She's trying to control it. Lots of illustrators, lots of ways that she's very dynamically, again, more extremely trying to show us the story to the extent of, you know, jumping up and miming it out for us. So they're huge dynamic range because they're going from sitting to standing to sitting again. And it doesn't elongate for a very long time. She doesn't keep it for a very long time. So what does that tell me? That tells me that underneath what might seem very controlled and to an extent, you know, I guess, calm to an extent, bubbling underneath that is something quite extreme going on. There's some extremes in gesture from going from what I would call grotesque playing, which is down below the belt line or protected in here up into ecstatic very, very quickly and back down again. Now, that's a range that you only usually see in things like stand up comedy or rock and roll or something like that, you know, big stage performances where you need to get that audience's attention and you need to hold that attention for a long, long time. You'll use this dynamic range to control the situation. So again, why does she need to control this situation rather than, you know, as I think Chase was saying, like there's, as I'm understanding it now, there's a child missing right now. So why is the focus not there or certainly controlling the conversation to drive towards let's find, you know, a child, a missing child, you know, if that's the story that's being asked about here. So, oh, and one last thing on this, she's giving us a shopping list of events, event, event, event, event, another event, another event, another event. Again, seems incongruous with driving towards what the real crux of this story is. Why this shopping list of events? Eventually, as I recall it, we actually will get to her kind of advocating for her shopping list. But until we get there, Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree. And in this video, we're seeing somebody who thinks these details are relevant. We already, she's already seen what happened, knows what happened, and somehow believes she needs to act out her behaviors to detectives hours and hours before this thing happened. So just think to yourself, what kind of person would think that these details are relevant and extremely relevant? And they would bring maybe papers in there, but they'd be photographs of the child, what he was wearing, some medication allergies, medicine studies on birthmarks, those kinds of things. So this is all what we're seeing is permissive behavior. It's about giving the interrogator some kind of control, making them feel like they're in charge. It's kind of like saying, hey, I'm not a threat, I'm cooperating. It's a way of reducing some tension and conflict. It's also a way of avoiding confrontation. So they're hoping she is, by being compliant, they're gonna get off easier. It's also a way of humanizing themselves or herself, just making it harder for the interrogator to see her as a suspect or a criminal. Like, I'm just, I'm not a monster. And when she describes going back to check on him, it's funny she can't think of a reason to explain her actions. And when you watch this again, you're gonna see it. She has trouble explaining why she returned to check the vehicle so many times when an innocent person would understand their motive clearly behind doing this. And she cannot say the word check on him. She's not saying that. She makes up random stuff there. The layout of this interrogation room is pretty damn good. It's how I would advise some departments to do it in some situations with one gigantic exception. And that's having a glass top table in the room. And I think it's a horrible idea for obvious reasons. Scott, what do you got? All right, before we go any further, Mark, I don't know why I thought this because I've seen you stand up in there before. It always looks like you're standing up, even though you're sitting down. Why is that? I know you're sitting down. Why does it always look like you're standing up? I always think I don't think out loud he's standing up, but it always looks like you're standing up. Is that on purpose? No, you know what? What I think it is, I mean, yes. What I think it is, is the energy that I have. It makes you feel like I must be standing up. And I think it's that. Stay to it. Yeah. Really? And stay. OK, sorry, man, I didn't get that clear. But it never bugged me. But when you scooted back that time, I said he's sitting down. But I know that because I've seen you get up and walk out of the room that time we made fun of you. That one time you made fun of me? Well, the one time you know about. Right, right. So OK, let me get back to this. We see a classic move here in the adapters category. She does a Rodney Dangerfield. She actually does this on her shirt. She says, oh, it does that to get some heat out of there because she's heating up and she's going along. Rarely do you see classic pictures of people going, yeah, I don't know, man. So with the actor or the fake person acting like they're lying and they'll do that. But that was, man, that was fairly fast, fairly quickly. So look at that this next time around because it's, man, it's good. Still so much head touching, so much face touching, so many adapters happen here. They're flying around everywhere. And then that leg turn, that left leg turns into a barrier to the detective on the right. I think she hits on some points that she sees as a danger subconsciously because I don't think she consciously is doing that when she wants to get away from her. So that leg goes out, completely sticks straight out from what she's doing. Greg brought this up yesterday when we were talking about the reflection we're seeing in there from the mirror. That's above what might be the door. I don't see anybody moving around in there. But yeah, I didn't see anybody moving around. But I think that's fairly interesting that it's not that they don't, they're not thinking this is going to be used for YouTube. They're not thinking they're ever going to use this video for anything else just to get that information. That's why the sounds are so horrible. And usually the video is just horrendous. But most of the time the sound is worse, is in this case. But I think I would have somebody, I would have, maybe that detective steps out because she's got to go say, you guys got to come up here and watch this. But nobody came up to the room to watch. So she's checking on something. She's gone out of the room to go take a look at something, check on something. She just said to make sure everything is good with that. That's my understanding because why in the world would you leave that room? No reason to, but you do that all the time. But quite often you do that and nobody's in and you let them sit there and think about what just happened. You leave them with a question that isn't answered. Then you say, listen, I'll be back in just a couple of minutes and you leave for like 10 minutes. You know, let them think about it. You can go back and watch while on the monitor. You can watch them squirm and think about what you said. It's that thing we talked about like that mind virus. You put a little thing in there and it just grows and squirms around in there. And I think you're right, Marcus. I think we're seeing a form of panic in there. She's getting all kinds of worked up and she's trying to control it. And those personality types like she has, those will go up and down. The more excited she gets, the more she's going to move around. And the more she's thinking, man, she might be thinking, I've got this. This is great. I'm going to get away with it, but you know, I'm protecting myself as I go along. I think she gets so excited. She can hardly stand it. Taking from somebody who gets all worked up sometimes and she gets worked up, I think fairly easily. So I think that's a form of panic. And every second is accounted for with her. Every second is a cow. We did this. I took this many steps to this. It's almost like that. Everything is accounted for. She should have literally just a minute amount of memory for those things because her whole being and brain should be focused on where is this my child or my step child or whatever it is. Where is this kid at? Where is this child? We don't see that at all. Still no grief, still no sadness, still no, oh my God, you know, what do you need from me? None of that, just telling what happened. Second by second, made it by minute. That is, I've never seen it to this degree before. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, a couple of things. I got a whole lot of pieces here. I'll try to keep this as short as I can. But number one, there's something she's trying to get out. Is the reason she's being so friendly and is the reason she's doing it. She's already put out one piece of information. There was a Hispanic guy that I went to and I gave him this code. Boom, there's one. Now she's got to tell you why she was doing something in front of a camera. Because she brings up the fact that there are cameras and you're gonna see me going back and forth to check my car. She knows where this parts of her story that are gonna come apart are and she's trying to give you reasons why it's okay. That's why she's ramped up. She's trying to make sure that you buy into whatever it is she's doing. Look at that romance or that locked eye contact. She's doing her best, her best to ensure that they're falling for whatever she's saying. The other thing is, as she walks through this, she has put, let me talk again about Liar's Loop. In Liar's Loop we say, you've got a trigger. In this case, the child's death would be a trigger or a disappearance. Then you've got to fabricate. So she is probably smart enough that she's fabricate, fabricate, fabricate, fabricate. Unless this is premeditated and she's playing this out for a long time, which is even worse, either way is a bad thing. And she's gonna fill in any plot gaps that she can. She's gonna think through the process. And so she's gonna come up with why would I walk back and forth and check my car? Cause that's gonna make me look suspicious. The fact that you bring it up makes you look damn suspicious instead of just suspicious. Because now you've got an embedded confession going on. Once you get to that fabricate, you have to de-conflict that with the rest of your story. So why would I have been at the Petco running back and forth? Don't know, but she's got a reason to cover it. And if you don't believe she's fabricated and de-conflicted her story, preparing to pitch it and then have to defend it against you, she says these words, do you even need to know what I did in there? That's a source lead all day every day. Of course I need to know. Even if you don't need to know, I would ask. She's prepped. When she says that her legs thrust and she starts to adapt, that makes me go, hmm, something's up, something's different. Mark, I think that legs thrust is a regulator. And I think it's her pushing people away as she does that. And then she goes into what I call the multimedia show. Look, I brought props and then she gets up and starts to body, illustrate and mime to your point. What the hell? You don't see that. And guess what? No horror, not a mention of the kid's name other than to tell you when I was checking on him. And Chase, you started off right in the beginning with something I've said many times on the show and in my training is the lie doesn't need, lie, sorry, the truth doesn't need support but lie loves a crutch. And those crutches are things like pictures and timelines and details about things that don't matter. Those things give me some kind of strength. If my kid were missing, I would have said, look, we went to Petco, took about an hour, we came back home and happened when we got home. This is what you need to talk to me about. We don't hear any of that. We don't hear any of that. And if I were in her shoes, I would have called a lawyer but I think she's too smart for a lawyer. The last thing I'll cover, and I said I'd go along on this one is she says, I will tell you. When you're emphatic, you usually have something to tell. Not another place to hide time. That's all she's doing inside in time. Don't trust her. Sorry, dude. Yeah, I wouldn't, this is you. I think we might have different versions of my Android, so anyway, this neither here nor there. So when you and Gannon are out running around to these places and getting your gas and your coffee and like Petco a couple of times does he go into the doors with you? No, but I parked and I know you're gonna see this so I'm gonna say that I parked on the front and like I don't know if you could, you'll probably, if you see the Petco cameras. I'm in this, can I show you? Sure. I'm in the store a lot of times walking back to the front door doing this. And my point of doing that is because I was making sure that I didn't see him like, you know, if he needed something or like getting out or whatever. And we, he stays in the car like, I really don't stay in the car all the time with like, if like Lena's in the car and he'll be like, it's okay, stay here, stay here buddy, we'll be right back. Don't think anything of it because he had a switch with him and he was playing the switch. Did he know what store you were in? Yeah, Petco. So like if he needed you or whatever else. Right, right, right. And I did keep walking to the door. Sure. But several times and I'm pretty sure I didn't know him the second visit to walking back to the door just to make sure. You know, like if he was like, oh, you know. Sure, if I need you or whatever. Sure. So yeah, you can see that on there. So when I, do you need to know like what I did in there? Or are you just, or is it? So you're just in there shopping and then. It wasn't even a long shop. Like, like it wasn't. And then you come, they come back out and then where do you go? So I started, I know we were right in that area like different places, but I don't think I stopped anywhere else specific to get anything other than Starbucks, I made a wrong turn. And then two times at Petco's and I went to the four Marshalls, but. After the second time at Petco, did you go anywhere? I think after that Petco is when we started to head home. Okay, so you go home. And I wanted to, I want to give you like an accurate of that if I pulled this up because I don't, I feel like right after Petco, we went home. I don't want to. Sure, if you want to try and bring it up. Yeah, I don't want you to think that I missed a stop or something. And I will tell you on the way, on the way there, we did stop and get gas somewhere. I can't remember if it was on the way there or way home. Do you remember what station? Oh wait, but we did stop and get gas. A shell, getting 11. Here, come and go. If you, do you got to go? I hate to do this. Yeah, I need to, I need to run out. I'm going to, I'm going to come back. Okay. Okay. It shouldn't take me very long, hopefully. But please continue talking with Detective Houston and then whenever I get done with that, I'm going to come back in and we'll get back on again. Right. Yeah, I'm trying to pull this up. After you guys left Petco. So did you buy something in there that time or the second time? Yeah. Okay, okay. And I know she kept asking me about what was going to do and what would see whatever, blah, blah, blah. So I'm going to say this about getting back. Okay. So everyone has been, yeah, like about this whole thing about camera footage and this happened because we didn't see this or didn't see this. So I'm very smart. What do you mean everyone? So like my whole family is being harassed. My mom is being threatened to be killed. My daughter is being stalked. I saw it took me a lot of get hair because I had to put some safety measures in for her own well-being. Okay. And my family from back home is being threatened. People are staying there sending people after them. Okay. So, you know, there's always a world of people making situations and saying, let's be a good person, but then threaten someone else. Okay. So being aware of that, that's what was going on. So in between all that and all these people were sending me like messages that people were saying, blah, blah, blah. I didn't respond to any of them. During all that, there was something along the lines of someone checked neighbors two doors down or something camera footage and never saw anyone do this or that. Like, I don't know, like specific. But my point behind telling you that is if this is what you guys, and I'm not saying this is what your base and stuff on, this is what your base and stuff on is like in the day and age, timelines, security, things like that. You will see on somebody's security, in and I run to the car at 10 o'clock in the morning and we returning at two something. Okay. So he, well, I remember specifically in truck, I pulled it right in front of the main. And- Our ring? We don't have a subscription according to these neighbors who can see y'all all the way to the truck every day. They should be able to show you during those time frames that we run in, we run out, he runs back in, whatever. Okay. And then- So you leave around 10 something and then you get back around two something? I feel like it was like 235, 225, two something. Okay. Cause I knew I had to be back in time to do a couple things. And then I knew Lane would be coming there. I knew Harley would be getting off work. All right, Chase, what do you got? She just uses those words, like what was Gannon doing, whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she thinks there's some intellectual thing about saying that, like, oh, I could give you all these details, but I'm just going to say this cause it's, you know, I'm a little busy right now. And I don't have time to go into all the details for you. But then she has this like finished hand gesture when she's saying, getting back. And I'm sure y'all will dig into that. And what we're seeing here, according to me, is the triangle of guilt. So the first part of the triangle of guilt is guilt. Acting in ways to alleviate some internal feelings of guilt, like confessing indirectly to other things so that they feel some sense of relief or they're building rapport so the interrogators feel less threatening. The second element of this triangle is fear. This is the fear of being caught. It's obviously pretty huge here. And this causes a lot of nervousness, a lot of stress behaviors. And guilty people will typically move faster in the interrogations, like their gestures and movements will be more rapid. This also comes in the form of permissive behavior that reasonable innocent people don't feel the need to display at all. Finally, is a desire to control the narrative, shifting stories, changing subjects, details in the wrong place. All the details are around the wrong places here. Then there's ambiguous blame shifting. That's the final part of this controlling the narrative. Ambiguity is just introduced in every possible element here. So she's placing a tremendous amount of focus on every detail to help the police, but the crime occurred in the home, just like what Greg was saying a second ago. And she was in the home, I think, in the story. I think anyone over the age of 10 with an IQ over room temperature would know the details about the trip to the pet supply store would be irrelevant, anybody, but at the age of 10. So if you just think about this, it's another example of a detail valley and a detail mountain. The detail valley starts precisely when the crime starts being talked about. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, let's talk about where the details are. When we talk about a criminal case, we talk about something that has gone on. When a person spikes their details around evidence, you should go, hmm, something is up. And when I say evidence, I mean, evidence that wrongdoing has occurred. All the places that something could create evidence against her, like walking back and forth to the door of the store to look and see what's going on in her car. That's a piece of evidence. Like hiring a guy and giving him a code to a door. That's a piece of evidence. We'll see some others here. You see that she's got a couple of others. So every place we look, let's look for, is it evidence? Is it something that a police officer could possibly use to break your story? And she's gonna be preemptive. She's gonna go after the evidence issue she knows will be a problem. That tells you something, because she is jacked way up, energy-wise. Unless she just came in there on five-hour energy or some other chemical substance, she jacked up. And you know what jacks you up? Adrenaline. You know what causes adrenaline? Your amygdala. Now I don't know if hers worked right, but hers worked clearly because she's jacked through the roof. And what we're seeing is what kept her up at night. The things she wants to talk about. Not where is my kid. Not where is this kid? Where is the Mexican guy or Hispanic guy who came in the door? It's none of that. It's, hey, I wanna talk about seeing me on a ring camera. I wanna talk about this. I wanna talk about that. That's a problem. That's a source lead too, because when a person tells you what they want to talk about, let's take that to the map and tear it to pieces. This is when questioning, who, what, when, where, why, how, what else, huh? All that would take this story to pieces. They do a good job of letting her talk, and that's important. Now she starts some new hand movement we haven't seen like she's spellcasting or something, trying to persuade people, but she's loaded her leg under the other leg, which I found interesting. But her elbows are still welded to her side as she's doing her hands like this. It looks unnatural and it looks foolish. Wait till later when she gets down to her, she's a T-Rex and can't even touch her own face. She gets worse and worse and worse. Then she's overly specific until she gets down to the things that matter back at the house, this and that. I don't know specifics. And then she says there's a point. Of course there's a point because you have a story. You're now trying to de-conflict. Somebody's asked you a question. You have to defend that information, go back and de-conflict the new words you put into there. And she has a master's in curriculum design, which means she's probably thinking about how blocks go together, how people think and how stuff goes together. That helps sort of put these things together. And another big regulator, Mark, is she thrusts her hands forward and says, if what you guys are basing it on, after she does that, she goes to bat her on deck, on deck and starts rubbing her thighs with her hands to release nervous energy. Scott, what do you got? All right. This detective down here is the one she fears because when the other detective leaves, everything changes. We're seeing a whole lot of things we haven't seen at this point. For example, the eye blocking, where she completely puts her hand in front of her face, right over her eyes. We eye block when we get information we don't want, or we see something we don't want to see, or there's a situation that we want to get away from, or we don't want to see. So that's what I, even blind people do that. I've told this story on here. I grew up, there was a, my dad's BFF, his best friend was Doc Watson, this blind guitar player. Every time we tell something that was just horrible and he would think there would be a, if he thought there was somebody in the room that shouldn't be hearing that horrible joke, he would cover his eyes and he was blind. So it's got to be some inherent thing with the face or something, or part of the brain right behind there because he would always do that. He'd always block his eyes when that started. We're seeing small illustrators here because she's building up to, in other words, romance this other detective. Because you know, she hasn't talked to her, she's talked to Adder a whole lot, but she hasn't asked a whole lot of questions. And every time she does, that's when she starts locking down and she locks down here. But she's trying to open up slowly but surely while she tries to befriend or romance this other detective. We're hearing fading facts for the first time. When she makes a big deal, then everything she starts talking and gets the details and starts getting quiet and quiet. That's what we do quite often when we're saying something we're not sure of or we know is incorrect or deceptive as we talk, it gets quieter and fades. That the quote unquote fact fades as you go along. Well, there's so much here. She's thought all of this out. She's thought everybody this out. You're right, Greg, she keeps going back and hitting on things she's missed before. She goes through a list of things she's missed before in there. Starts giving details about things she wasn't asked about. She's bringing up all kinds of stuff. She's hedging everything, making sure that there are no weaknesses in that wall she's built so the water can't get through or the deception can't get through so they can't get through and find her or find out she's lying to him. She eye locks constantly with this other detective. Just that hard stare at her, making sure that she's being believed. Like we always talk about on here, one of the biggest myths about body language and human behavior and deception is people think when you lie to someone, someone's lying to you, they'll break eye contact. Well, we know for a fact from studies that most people keep looking at you when they're telling you the truth. It's okay if you ask somebody a question and they look around for a second and go, well, you know, I'm gonna do something like that. It's okay when they look around and think about something. But when you ask someone a question and they just dead eye and keep looking at you, that's their brain saying, we gotta make sure this person believes us because if you get the impression they don't believe you, then you start adding what we call qualifiers to qualify that answer, to build it up, stack it up, to make it stronger, to make you look more believable and non-deceptive as you're going along. I mean, just there are so many things. This is so good. This stuff, these are so good, Greg. What a great catch. Yeah, when she's asked questions, she starts scratching her leg big time. And you're right, Greg, she does that whole on deck, batter on deck, you know, batter up, rubbing her legs. This is, these are all classic cues and tales we're seeing here for reception. It's wonderful. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, look, there's that moment where that ankle now has disappeared right underneath, they're well protected now. Interesting, Scott, that the interviewer there is mirroring that as well. I don't think that's by accident at all, in any way, some really nice mirroring going on. I think we're seeing what's lovely about seeing these interviewers on the subject is not only will the interviewers mirror each other in order to lock into a position and sustain a position together, but they'll also choose to lock in with the subject as well at the right time, that ability to be adaptable purposely in those moments of stress, because this is stressful for the interviewers, maybe not as much as it is for the interviewee, but it's stressful for them as well. There's potentially a massive crime committed here, is my expectation or small understanding of this, and so there's stress all around. So look, all the behaviors that we talk about here, many of you will be going, yeah, but I do that, but I sit on my ankle now and again, but I'm kind of erratic with my gestures now and again, and it's, yeah, you are. You are now and again, and some of you could know, I'm kind of like that all the time. Well, yeah, all the time when you're not being questioned for a crime, okay? So put yourself in this situation here knowing that you have done nothing. You have done, you know zero about this. You know zero about this, and maybe your child is lost to you, or somebody you love is lost to you. Well, are you doing those behaviors all the time? Are you erratic for the next three hours, or do you lock into a very clear, consistent behavior which has a very clear, consistent objective to it of getting this thing sorted out? Well, she's not in that right now. Look, here's one of the behaviors that you might be able to say, yeah, but I do that, okay? She's keeping her resources super close to her. There's the plate, there's the notes, there's the canna coke, there's the bottle of water, there's everything, the phone goes right next to her. Everything is super close in what I would say is a very cluttered way. Now you might go on, but I live in a bit of clutter and I keep my stuff close to me. Yeah, yeah, that's okay, but would you be doing it there? Well, you don't know what you'd be doing there, but here's what we do know is she is doing that. She's accepted, looks like some kind of food, two types of drink, she's got notes with her, she's put those notes close to her, she's taken out her phone, she's put that close to her. All of this seems very incongruent. Jason Gregg will undoubtedly, Scott will undoubtedly know, look, if you're in an interrogation system, you take what you can get immediately. If somebody says, hey, have water, great, I'm drinking the whole bottle, I'm taking it all because they may not offer it again, but she's not in that kind of situation. So why is she going, yeah, I'll take the coke, I'll take the drink, I'll take the sandwich, I'll get out my notes, I'll get out my phone, I'll sit on my leg, all in this bunched up, cluttered way, it begs belief, and so therefore at this point, I'm just not believing anything that's going on here, and I don't even know what's going on here, and I don't believe it because of these clusters of behavior, which each and every one of you will be able to pick on some of those behaviors ago, I do that now and again, or I do that all the time, but do you do all of those things when in that kind of situation there, I would say, if you're guilty, yeah, you probably do. If you're guilty, you probably do all those behaviors. There, that's all I got on that one. Yeah, this is you. After you guys left Petco, so did you buy something there that time or the second time? Yeah. Okay, okay. And I know she kept asking me about what was gonna do and what would see whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm gonna say this about getting back. Okay, so everyone has been, yeah, like about this whole thing, about camera footage, and this happened because we didn't see this or didn't see this, so I'm very smart. What do you mean everyone? So like, my whole family is being harassed, my mom is being threatened to be killed, my daughter is being stalked. I saw it took me a while to get here because I had to put some safety measures in for her own well-being. Okay. And my family from back home is being threatened. People are staying there sending people after them. Okay. All those things. So there's always a world of people making situations and saying, let's be a good person, but then threaten someone else. Okay. So being aware of that, that's what was going on. So in between all that and all these people were sending me like messages that people were saying, blah, blah, blah, blah, I didn't respond to any of them. During all that, there was something along the lines of someone checked neighbors two doors down or something, camera footage and never saw anyone do this or that, like, I don't know, like specific, but my point behind telling you that is if this is what you guys, and I'm not saying this is what your base and stuff on, this is what your base and stuff on is like in the day and age, timeline, security, things like that. You will see on somebody's security, Gannon and I run to the car at 10 o'clock that morning and we're returning at two something. Okay. So he, well, I remember specifically a truck, I pulled it right in front of the main. And- Or ring? Yes, but we don't have a subscription. Okay. According to these neighbors who can see all the way to the truck every day, they should be able to show you during these time frames that we run in, we run out, he runs back in, whatever. Okay. And then- So you leave around 10 something and then you get back around two something? I feel like it was like 235, 225, two something. Okay. Because I knew I had to be back in time to do a couple things and then I knew Lane would be coming in here, I knew Harley would be getting off work. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So going on from there, Gannon goes inside, I think first, I don't want to misquote myself, I'm pretty sure he ran in first and I had the bag for Petco and all that stuff in my hand. Now I don't- Which door did you guys use? We always go in through the garage if we, typically, if we like part, like on the front part of the yard, I think of that. Sure. So we go in through the garage. Okay. He goes in through the garage, I go in, I'm getting ready to put up the things, stuff like that. And this is where it got, I look, I made a mistake, this is it. Okay. So as we got inside, I heard something, but I didn't think anything about it because I thought, you know, maybe, maybe Gannon was like doing something, maybe we were like, doing whatever. And the guy was in there. And I gave him the coat, the guy from the, yeah, it's all my fault because I gave him our coat of fixture carpet. Okay. And I shouldn't have, okay. And he was inside. I noticed when I had like walked in and saw, I saw our, we had like a little bookshelf thingy. I keep my shades in there too, but we also have like our guns and stuff. I saw it was open, but in my mind, I thought maybe I left my shades or whatever. Do you like sunglasses? Yeah. Okay. So I didn't think anything of it when I heard the noise and I just started walking downstairs. I didn't walk downstairs with like a gun or anything like that. So I started walking downstairs. And then when I walked downstairs, I hear something again. Well, at that point in time, Gannon was on the subway and I saw him and I heard something again and I walked on around to where the, so Gannon's room is here. And then there's a storage closet here. Okay. And I heard something. And so I walked through the storage closet to open the storage closet. And when I do it, he was standing in there. He had on gloves. In the storage closet? Yes. Okay. I think he had one of the gloves. And I was terrified, so terrified. And then he just knocked me down and like towards Gannon's room. And he was like, he was hitting on me. And it was like, all right, like on the ground. And he was trying to like break me. And I told her, I said, I have to tell you about this. And like I'm from there on, it was like in a blur. Cause I was trying so hard because Gannon had a table in his room and I like, I went back and hit my head on it. Like with him, Gannon runs inside the room and like tries to like, you know, be helpful, do something, whatever. And from there, I was kind of like a blur, everything else that was going on. Cause I was just like crying and I was freaking out. And I swear God, I don't know what happened from there. I really don't know what had happened from there. I don't, okay. I don't. And I'm just like, in the moment thinking, I had like these memories of like, wow. You know, like the thing was open. He has a gun. I didn't remember what happened from there. And so I kind of like blacked out just a little bit. And so all these things are going through my mind is I'm blacked out. I don't know if like, I know he was like, when Gannon was like trying to get on him, I know he was like moving Gannon and you know, like, and it was just all like, it's so like a cycle to me. Okay, Greg, what do you got? So a couple of things. Let me just bat right out there. She's suddenly very emotional about giving the guy the code. And she wasn't earlier. I mean, my now is she's suddenly emotional that she gave her the code. I don't get that part. Number one, number two, she's not, there's no horror as she gets home. No horror at all. No, none, none. There's not horror at this happened. She walked open the door. She tells a story like nothing else happened. And she talks about what we always do. Chase, I know you'll talk about that instead of what happened. Did he go in first? We, he always goes in first. Okay, boom. She's still got the room answers. She's got heart eye contact. Those spot welded elbows now have turned into T-rex. So now we're seeing her hands do all this kind of stuff until at one point she gets up and does that dance from the sixties to swim. You know, the only thing she does is grab her nose and kind of duck at her knees. But she does that whole thing as she's going through. There's still no horror. This is, it would be funny if it were not for a fact this is a child has been murdered and this person's tied into it. Now we get to the big illustrators when she gets to facts. She's over the top with these. I wonder if she has read or heard that Vray says when people move their hands a lot and illustrate a lot of the telling truth. When she does that, however, if we pay real close attention, it's when she can talk about a table or something, an object. Now, when she's talking about what actually happened, where are they when she says this guy was inside? Where's the shock? Where's the big movement? There should be a lot of movement there. Her tears dry after she's talking about the guy being in the closet and all their tears dry as she goes back and talking about the bookshelf. It's just weird. I think these are tears are getting busted. There's also another red flag. If I've got a drawer where I keep guns and stuff and I come in the house and that drawer is open, I'm probably going right back out the front door if I don't have one on me myself because I'm not getting shot in my own gun. That's not on my list of things to do today. But not her. She just walks on and didn't think anything about it. As she says, there's just so much here. Lots of details, no horror. And of course, here's a piece she had to tell you, he had on gloves because there's another de-conflict why there's no fingerprints from anybody but her in the house. It's just, there's so much here. She goes back, I'll just leave it at that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, there's a perennial favorite here. I swear to God, I don't know what happened. I swear to God, I don't know what happened. Do we bring up that swearing to some kind of deity a lot? And again, you might well say, but hang on, I say that and I'm not lying when I'm saying that. And yeah, you may well do that. But here's why in these kinds of situations, why I swear to God is an interesting thing to say. So first of all, Chase, you'll love this. It's a connection to status, okay? It's a connection to status that really in our universe and ideas of the universe and ideas of, you know, who might be most in charge when you get to God's, they're like top of the top of the top ranking, okay? You don't rank a lot higher than that in my ideas of how deity structures work. God is at the very top, okay? So there you go, I'm going, look, I'm gonna swear to the highest possible power that this, that I don't remember this. The other element here is, it's impossible to corroborate that with that God. I mean, most people would say they may have some kind of relationship, but you're not really allowed to go, okay, well, bring that God in and then let's just check that out. It's just not like, number one, it's not really allowed. You're not really allowed to question the God's. That's throughout, you know, most ideas of deities. It's just not done. And also it's tough to do. You might have your own conversations with all kinds of God's, that's all right. But I don't get to go, okay, well, bring that God in and let's sort it out. I mean, it's ultimately within your psyche, within your head, within your, you know, relationship. So you can't call somebody out on that. So you've got two factors there that kind of socially pressure us into going, oh, all right then, well, if you swear to God, let's just leave that one alone. And also the factor is, look, if you don't remember, you know, if Greg was saying, hey, tell me about this event. And it's a dramatic event. And Greg says, well, you know, what happened here? And I don't know. I'm going to go, look, Greg, I just don't know. I just don't remember. I just don't remember. But here's the important thing. And I get Greg back on track for like, here's the important thing. Here's what I do remember. And we've got to get going on this information. We've got to get going on this. And at no point am I going to go, look, Greg, I swear to God, because it doesn't make any difference. Me swear, it makes zero difference. The reality is, even if, you know, I had some kind of relationship with that God, it's not worth bringing that entity into the situation. So if you ever hear us say, hey, you know, there's a swearing to God at this point, that's a red flag. I would suggest that's why we tend to think it's a red flag. It's not red flag universally across the whole of life. But in these kinds of situations here, where you would know what you know and would have forgotten what you've forgotten and blacked out where you blacked out, you don't have to bring in a deity to substantiate that. Greg, what have you got on this one? You went, you got on this one. All right. She is now at the lead of the story. This is what you open up with. This is it. It's been funny and fun and all that at this point. Now she gets here and she starts crying Can you imagine her clearing the house, clearing her room and trusting her to go down with her gun and clear it and make sure everything's okay? She doesn't know anything about that. She would have taken a gun, whether if that drawer was open, if she were to go forward with that and keep going in, you check and make sure none were missing number two. And you would know what was in there. You'd know each one of those guns. And then you'd say, wonder what's going on downstairs? I hear something downstairs. And you would go prepared for that. You wouldn't just go down there and check it out, man. That's crazy talk. You go outside and you call the cops. They say, hey man, I think somebody's in my house. That's what happens then. She opens, and when she opens up, she's saying this is like saying, or her opening was like saying, a woman's husband loses toe at beach. And in reality, it should have said, man eaten by shark at Myrtle Beach. But no, she waits till now. This is when she gets upset. Three fourths of the way through, she gets all upset. She starts off by trying to build rapport with this detective. She's still trying to get that thing happening. And she has more adapters and more illustrators than she's had up to this point so far. They're not the huge ones. They're fairly small, but they're there more than any of them. A lot of fading facts, especially when she says, I made a mistake. Listen for that this time through. Because she says, I made a mistake. It almost goes to nothing there. This is then, let's see what else is there. You're right, Greg, there's so much in here. I'm trying to go over what Mark went over already. She can't recall the details now. Up to this point, man, she's gone second by second by minute by minute. Now she doesn't remember. She doesn't remember anything. She's got nothing. She shouldn't have remembered anything the whole time. And I can understand why she would remember this part because you remember things in sections. She would be able to remember things in flashes. That's why your brain works. That's why the hippocampus collects that information because there's a lot going on right then. So it doesn't remember that. There's no flow. It's just bang, bang, bang, bang. And you remember parts of it. And she's remembering nothing but little teeny parts of it. And you're right, Greg, about the gloves. Come on. This is, it's wonderful. But then she has that hard eye lock at the same time. I'm not seeing any tears. She looks like she wells up a little bit, but there's no really deep breath, none of that guttural stuff and going, she should feel guilt about this, whether it's her fault or not. And she'd just be full of guilt. It should be that low voice coming out of those low groans of sadness and grief coming out. But she does that real high thing. Then this is unbiable. This wouldn't be worth anything if you had to buy that. And plus her feet are pointed right at the door. She wants to get out of there so bad. She wants us to be able to see how we stand it. I'll leave it there. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, and Mark, to add onto that, just saying swear to God, if that was on the behavioral table of elements, it would be a four. You need other things with that in order to get it up to an 11 where we would say deception might be likely. So we're looking for clusters, but as a species, human beings, we've been using nonverbal communication 10 times longer than we have language. Language is relatively new to us. Now, a lot of our understanding about nonverbal behavior occurs in this lower part of the brain called the limbic system. And specifically in those little thing called the amygdala and the hippocampus. And this is referred to sometimes as the mammalian brain because it's responsible for these primal instincts and emotions. So what's fascinating about this is the brain doesn't process language, this part of the brain, at all. It does not understand or comprehend language. It's all about feelings and instinct. So when it picks up on little cues that something is off, like a little shift in body language or something, it gives us a weird feeling and we call that an intuition or a gut feeling that somebody's just full of crap. So why aren't we consciously aware of it? It can't send us a text message. It can't tell us or explain what it saw. So when you get a gut feeling, somebody's lying or being deceptive, that's your limbic system at work. It's picked up on some subtle cues, but those cues have been passed down by our ancestors, these tiny little cues. So instead of breaking this down like normal, I'm gonna translate for you. I'm gonna translate your limbic system for you of what it's thinking and why you saw this video and felt, wow, that is just disgusting. It's a horrible lie. So the first thing your brain's seeing, she's folding herself over, using the rib cage to protect the soft belly, which is built into mammals. Hesitancy, I know your mammalian brain doesn't speak languages, but it detects hesitancy very well in both words and actions. Then there's throat touching. So we're seeing a protective display of the arteries here. Then there's a non-answer in there. Typically we always do X. Like if I ask somebody, well, what time did you leave the office? Wednesday, and they say, well, I usually go straight home at 5.15. That's not an answer. Then there's a strange drop in tone and volume and an increase in asymmetry. Mark could do a 10-hour lecture on this asymmetry idea. Then you're witnessing a human faking emotion and your brain knows it. Your brain knew it in that part of your brain. And finally, your brain's picking up on what I call predatory behavior, which it is also hardwired to do. And here's where that picked it up. While she's pretending to cry, and our brains can see that, she's locked onto a target. She's ensuring that the information's being conveyed and that essentially the interiator's buying it. So your limbic system processed all of that. To tell you that information, I just was the translator for that. That's all I got. Excellent. And I'm gonna add something to that, Chase, about the fusiform gyros, the thing that catches all those little things that you see. So I know you probably won't get in the minutiae of it, but people watching might be interested. So as you look at something like this or a person like this, your fusiform gyros catches all the little movements, the little things they do, all these little facial expressions and things that move around in their body. Then the mid-temporal gyros catches all the bigger moves that you make. It sees cars and things and catches and remembers all that. And it sends all that information back to this whole thing in the base of your brain called a locus ceruleus, about as big as a BB. And that starts sorting through all this information. Where have I seen this before? Do I know that person? Have I seen somebody act like this before? What's up with all the things in this picture here? What's been going on? And you don't get it right away. That's the gut feeling Chase is talking about. However, there's a difference in a gut feeling which guys get. And then you have that most powerful almost like ESP stuff in the world. And that's what women get, which is women's intuition or women's intuition. That's where those come from. Because women take in a lot more information and they decipher it a lot differently than men's brains do. That's a fact. It's not me saying that. It's not some political opinion. That's the truth. That's a fact. We know that from studies. So women get a lot more information. That's why they're dead on most of the time. They say, I don't like that person. And you go, why don't you like that person? They say, I don't know why yet. I don't know. I just don't like him or I just don't like her. And then eventually you find out that person has done something. They're not a good person or they're not the type of person you would hang around with. So I don't know, I get worked up about that. But man, it's so potent. What are we gonna say, Greg? Well, yeah, last thing is all tied together. Chase, to your point, the limbic systems designed to keep you alive. And those people have good ones, good ones have survived and reproduced. Those who thought, what? Look at that bear. He looked tug-able. Guess what? They're not here. And part of the whole thing is the way our brain finds baselines for what is normal and what is not normal. When we talk about baseline, we're using it as a term of art, the way we operate. But you, every one of you can indicate, can detect baseline in a person because you can tell something has changed. More importantly, you can tell what is baseline in a cluster or a group of people and say, that guy's an outlier. You were instinctively, and Chase, you explained it perfectly why you can do it. You just need to know that you can do it and that it works and that you should be paying attention. Let me add one last thing to that as we're all having to go on this. Yeah, that's a good thing. I would want people to get the wrong idea about this. Your instinct defaults to the negative. Okay, it isn't interested in being correct. It's interested in you being safe today, accurate tomorrow. Those times when you find out later on, oh, they were actually a bad person, you remember those. You don't remember the times when you found out they were a good person because that's not useful for you. It's useful to remember the times when your instinct defaulted to the negative and you were accurate because it's designed to keep you safe. It has no desire for accuracy. Your instinct is not a knowledge machine, it's a best guess machine and it will best guess towards the negative every time you'll remember the times when you were right and you will forget the times when you were wrong and that's a fact as well. So you gotta watch, obviously pay attention to your gut instinct, male or female, when you have no agency, when you have no resources, when you are cut off from the exits, pay attention. But if you have a lot of resource, if you know where the exits are, if you've got friends around you, you are quite at liberty to question your instinct because it's very, very often inaccurate and just trying to keep you safe. There it is, it's you. So going on from there, getting those inside, I think first, I don't wanna miss, so I'm pretty sure he ran in first and I had the bag for Petco and all that stuff in my hand. Now I don't- Which door did you guys use? We always go in through the garage if we typically, if we like part, like in the front part of the yard, I think of that. So we go in through the garage. Okay. He goes in through the garage, I go in, I'm getting ready to put up things, stuff like that. This is where it got, I made a mistake, this is it, okay? So as we got inside, I heard something but I didn't think anything about it because I thought, you know, maybe, maybe Ganna was like doing something, maybe we were like doing whatever and the guy was in there. And I gave him the code. The guy from the, yeah, it's all my fault because I gave him our code to fix the carpet. Okay. And he was inside. I noticed when I had like walked in and saw, I saw our, we had like a little bookshelf thingy. I keep my shades in there too but we also have like our guns and stuff. I saw it was open but in my mind I thought maybe I left my shades or whatever. Do you like sunglasses? Yeah, okay. So I didn't think anything of it when I heard the noise and I just started walking downstairs. I didn't walk downstairs with like a gun or anything like that. So I started walking downstairs and then when I walked downstairs, I hear something again. Well, at that point in time, Ganna was on the sofa and I saw him and I heard something again and I walked on around to where the, so Ganna's room is here and then there's a storage closet here. Okay. And I heard something and so I walked through the storage closet to open the storage closet and when I do it's him and he was standing in there. He had on gloves in the storage closet. Yes. Okay. And I wanted to go and I was terrified. So terrified. And then he just knocked me down and like towards Ganna's room and he was like, he was hitting on me and it was like, all right, like on the ground. And he was trying to like rape me and I told her, I said, I have to tell you about this. And like I'm from there on, it was like in a blur because I was trying so hard because Ganna had a table in his room and I like I went back and hit my head on it. Like with him, Ganna runs inside the room and like tries to like be helpful, do something, whatever. And from there I was kind of like a blur everything else that was going on because I was just like crying and I was freaking out and I swear God I don't know what happened from there. I really don't know what had happened from there. I don't. Okay. I don't. And I'm just like in the moment thinking I had like these memories of like, wow, you know, like the thing was open. He had the gun. I didn't remember what happened from there. And so I kind of like blacked out just a little bit. And so all these things are going in through my mind is I'm blacked out. I don't know if like, I know he was like, when Ganna was like trying to get on him, I know he was like moving Ganna and you know, like, and it was just all like, it's so like a cycle that was like, I could, I was like, I could, I couldn't find Ganna and I was like, the guy was doing the house. Laina was on the way. I didn't know where Ganna was at cause I was calling for Ganna. I thought he was hiding. Like I legit thought he was hiding. And like maybe the other closet that was on the other side, the other, you know, whatever. I thought he was hiding. I was so scared. So I run up the stairs because I hear that, you know, I know it's like all my time for Laina. And I hear that the Ring app had like an alert for someone at the front door, but it could have been just like, like Amazon or something driving by cause there was nobody at the front door. And then I run right down stairs cause in my mind, I was like thinking where is Ganna. And I didn't want to leave and like run outside and scream and you know, go crazy cause I did not know where he was at at the time. And everybody says to me, you know, like, cause I told Albert and him about it. And they're like, why didn't you like run, go get help? And I, I didn't want to leave to go get help. And I didn't, I was terrified cause he, I know Albert would kill me because Ganna was with there. So then when I get downstairs, he has, he has the gun and he has Ganna. And I'm sitting there like freaking out, like, okay, what do you want me to do? Oh, a box. And Laina does make it to the door at this time. And then so I go upstairs because I, I know that he was like, don't say anything. Cause I didn't know if someone thought like he was a cop or you know, if someone heard something or I didn't know anything. So my thought process was, if I say anything, Ganna's down here, you know, I need to just be as cool as possible at like, cause we ordered things at Amazon like all the time, you know, books and things like that. So it was Laina. So the reason I sent Laina away was because I wanted her to be safe too. So I sent Laina on a mission to go get like the mail. Laina, it never gets the mail, nothing like that. I sent her on a mission to go get the mail. And so I just started making up random things for Laina to go do. And I looked at Laina and I said, she was saying and I was like, just stay going for a little while because I didn't want her coming back. And then that's, you know, like, her in a situation as we were too. So like in my mind, I think if I say anything, if I do anything, I just didn't know what to do. I was in complete panic. Mark, where do you go? Yeah. Okay. Here's why we order stuff from Amazon all the time. Is the same for me as saying, I swear to God, I don't remember. Why might they be the same? Well, what she's doing with, so we order stuff from Amazon all the time, books and the like, is there is nothing bigger than Amazon in the retail scope. I mean, if we don't worship the gods that we used to worship, certainly we worship the gods of retail now. And in fact, they're owned by tech titans. And so those titans, you know, live in the stratosphere. In fact, some of them even build vehicles to take them up to that stratosphere where we create names for them, like a titan, who, you know, the titans were the children of the gods. So those tech titans go back to their parents and the vehicles that they create. So she is naming something of super high status there and saying, look, we have a relationship with that. But it's hard to check the relationship because she's kind of going, you know, check my cart. You know, take a look at my cart right now. We do this all the time. Well, I can't check your cart right now. And then she lays down another social pressure as well to say like books, well, there can't be anything better, surely in the world than buying, you know, lots of books. There's this idea that, you know, if you read books, if you have a relationship with books, that's a good thing if you get a lot of books. Well, that's either true or false or something in between. I mean, that's, you know, your thing, that's my thing. We can each decide on that. But I'm just very interested that this literal shopping list comes out of nowhere in the peak of the situation of saying, look, here's, you know, I'm trying to describe the violence, the perpetrator, all of these things. By the way, we get books at Amazon like all the time. It's outrageous. And therefore, red flags sound off in my head. Greg, what do you got on this one? Well, the reason that red flag comes out is because this woman is doing what she always does and that is chaff and redirect. And I mentioned chaff and redirect earlier, Scott's wearing the shirt. If you don't know what we mean by that, when an aircraft drops all this garbage behind them and a missile follows it or rocket or any kind of munition follows it, then what you are seeing is chaff and redirect. And if a person spews enough useless information, you go, really, I love books. Now they've taken you off topic and you can waste time, you can burn time. And a lot of evading interrogators is about avoiding time, hiding time, hiding information. So what we see here is something that I would say another thing. The organism does what made the organism successful. I think she's a successful liar. And in her life, the way she's done it is by spewing out a lot of garbage, people picking it up and running. And when you're under a duress, you're more liable to go back and repeat those old subroutines that you have been successful with than any other thing. And you lay those down with 20,000 repetitions of anything puts a neuropath. And those most pronounced are gonna be the ones that come to the surface when you're under duress. Because we're back now to what Chase was talking about. The thinking brain is turning off and the limbic brain is responding to protect the being. And that's the part that takes care of the body and the being so you can reproduce. She's doing the prancer. She's doing this way, just throw information out and let the person try to get to you through all that information. But her flurry of details and normal speak coming up in the middle of this around stuff marked to your point, that's why it seems odd. We buy this, we buy that, we buy spick and span, we buy whatever. It's out of place when there's terror going on in your house. But she uses it because it's what she's always done. And she's got her eyes locked on this person to make sure she's following. And then when she gets to a point where she's emotional and she starts to explain why she did something, emotion dries up. That's a rookie mistake. Every interrogator will go, okay, I know you're lying now. I thought you were lying before, I know you're lying now. She needs to explain why she sent her daughter out because she sent her daughter out to buy a cleaning supplies to clean up the mess that she had made killing someone. I'll leave it at that and I'll leave it one thing. Barry Menko, most famous fraudster, 18-year-old kid who took a carpet cleaning business to IPO, actually made a movie about him, said to me one time, a fraud is the skin of the truth stuffed with lies. And exactly what you do when you say, yeah, I sent her out to do some weird errand just because they didn't want her to be home because of what was going on. This is a well thought out story, but she can't think out the fact that she's dynamic in her illustrators. They leave her body when she's talking about concrete things like how many drawers are on a chest or inside of a room, but when she gets to talking about the actual situation or hands you're doing the T-Rex thing again, can't miss it. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I don't have a whole lot of extra, but when she says, like I legit thought he was hiding, actually says those words, like I legit thought he was hiding, says this multiple times. If you think your son is hiding, why are you terrified? Why are you scared? She says I was terrified. I'm horrified and scared. You don't feel that way if you think your kid's hiding. And this is one of the most ridiculous liars I think we've ever had on so far. And there's so much in this clip here. I sat here for a while this morning going through it and just trying to even comprehend how monumentally stupid this all is. I had no idea what to write down. Like I have a notepad here to write my notes down. I didn't know like I struggled to write something down because I didn't know where to start. And she says this guy was still in the house here. This is made up storytelling. And here's the only tool that you need to see the deception here in this clip. Where is the detail? Where is the emotion? And where is the motive being explained? Truthful people don't need to repetitively state the motive for every action here. And she's saying he has the gun and he has Gannon. This would be described in detail. Absolutely. The look on Gannon's face would be burned into her mind for the rest of her life. And she would never be able to delete it. And then she says more storytelling. Layla, I think it's Layla. Does make it to the door at this time. This is just classic BS. And this is kind of just meaningless garbage. The guy's upstairs, I assume, and her kid, which should be how every step-parent sees it, step-kid, step-child or not, she should see that as her child. And she's casually hanging around in the kitchen, sending her daughter on these errands. But wait, there's more coming up and it gets better. Scott? All right. Here's the difference in what Chase experienced and what I'm experiencing with these videos. The way it goes is Greg finds the story we're gonna do, then he goes through it and finds out the numbers. We call that cutting those up. And then he says, okay, from 107 to 423 or whatever it is, I get that list and I actually go in and cut up the videos out and get those ready. So what I've done was I go to the top and make sure I get where it starts right. I don't watch the videos all the way through. Then I wait till the end and I cut wherever the number is or close to it where it looks like it's gonna end. Then I put them in our little folder and they go to Dropbox and we all get them. Now, I thought we were recording today at 530. So I was just sitting down to start watching these and I got a text in our signal app and said, so where's the link? Because I send the link to everybody because I'm running a Zoom call. And I was like, whoa, what are you doing? I'm sure I don't know what you're talking about. And because we were going today at 1230 or 12, well, it's a 12 or 1230. It was 12 and then I was up against a wall four time and then it turned to 1215 and then 1230. Yeah, 1230. Okay, so I haven't watched these all the way through, but I'm experiencing what Chase experienced. I don't know where to start because as we're watching these things, sometimes we just skip them and just come right back and we're having to watch all of them. And I don't know where to start either. And these are just wonderful. So if I look a little more giddy than the rest of the guys that we do this because I can't believe what we're seeing. I haven't had time to process it yet. Having said that, when we start this video, she's just puking up information, just throwing it up. I just puking it all over this detective. And she's just said she didn't remember anything. She didn't remember anything about that. She can remember what she was thinking. She can remember the thought process she went through as to why when she went outside she couldn't go yell for help. If you think somebody's in your house with a gun, excuse me, you're gonna run out. If you get outside, you're gonna start hollering. Go cut for the police. And then if you're gonna go back in, you go back in. She doesn't do that because there has been a killer or whatever he said, somebody would be mad at her. It just didn't work right, right? That is crazy talk. She's not, she's, she's thought all this stuff out without going into the details because look at all the information she's given us about this thing. We have so much information about everything. And then all of a sudden she can't remember what happened and she goes through and she actually is remembering what happened. She's telling us, like I said before, her thought process. I remember I thought, then I did this because, man. So anyway, after her crying and stuff goes away, there's no tears, there's no remnants of tears, there's nothing, no remnants of horror or grief or anything. We're not even seeing the expressions of fear on her face as she should be reliving this. She should be going through and as she relives those flashes of stuff, you'll see that on her face, seeing a million times you have to. We're not seeing any of that. This is, this is going so bad for her she doesn't even realize it. Then she goes back and starts adding on these, these qualifiers, the things she said earlier. I don't do this because usually Amazon comes and who's thinking of Amazon in deliveries when you're talking about the most horrific thing that's ever happened in your entire life. The most horrible, nothing like this has ever happened to you before. It's new, not only is it new, it's horrible. And you're talking like that and her cadence is just like, she's on 10, just can't, huh, she can't get a hold of it. Now she's kind of freaking out. She's at that point where she knows she has to get all this information out and she's excited and she knows she's supposed to be projecting an excitement there. But as she does, she's doing way too much. She goes over the top because she's not adding the emotional part of this that we should be seeing on her face. She's still almost as she's talking to this detective. Usually you're gonna be slouched down, you're gonna be crying, your hands are gonna be, you're gonna be on your face, you're gonna be, you'll be weeping and you can hardly get this stuff out. Then you're gonna be rocking back and forth. We're not seeing any of that stuff. I'll end there. Yeah, this is you. That was like, I couldn't find Gannon. I was like, the guy was still in the house, Laina was on the way. I didn't know where Gannon was at because I was calling for Gannon. I thought he was hiding. Like, I legit thought he was hiding like maybe the other closet that was on the other side, the other, you know, whatever. I thought he was hiding. Like I was so scared. So I run up the stairs because I hear that, you know, I know it's like all my time for Laina and I hear that the Ring app had like a alert for someone at the front door. But it could have been just like, like Amazon or something driving by because there was nobody at the front door. And then I run back downstairs because in my mind I was like thinking where is Gannon? And I didn't wanna leave and like run outside and scream and, you know, go crazy because I did not know where he was at at the time. And everybody says to me, you know, like, because I told Albert and him about it. And they're like, why didn't you like run, go get help? And I didn't wanna leave to go get help. And I didn't, I was terrified because I know Albert would kill me because Gannon was with there. So then when I get downstairs, he has the gun and he has Gannon and I'm sitting there like freaking out like, okay, what do you want me to do? Oh, blah, blah, blah. So, Laina does make it to the door at this time. And then, so I go upstairs because I know that he was like, don't say anything because I didn't know if someone thought like he was a cop or you know, if someone heard something or I didn't know anything. So my thought process was if I say anything, and then down here, you know, I need to just be as cool as possible at like, because we ordered things at Amazon like all the time, you know, books and things like that. So it was Laina. So the reason I sent Laina away was because I wanted her to be safe too. So I sent Laina on a mission to go get like the mail. Laina, it never gets the mail, nothing like that. I sent her on a mission to go get the mail. Okay. And so I just started making up random things for Laina to go do. And I looked at Laina and I said, she was standing there. I was like, just stay going for a little while because I didn't want her coming back. And then that's, you know, like her in a stress in the situation that we were to. So like in my mind, I think if I say anything, if I do anything, I just didn't know what to do. I was in complete panic. And I'm like pleading and like talking and like all these things going on. Like just back and forth with him. And why are you doing this? Why did you hurt us? Why are you doing these things? And then it just started being like a, like a hustle and puzzle, like back and forth. And I don't even remember how it kept going for, you know, like maybe I say five or 10 minutes, but I don't know if it was that long. And then he was like on top of me again. And then I kind of like out again because he's hit my head again. And then, yeah. And then I was on the table that was inside, like in between the red, the red blue table in there. He forced me in there again and he was trying to do it again. And I was just like losing, losing my mind, like completely like Albert, Albert's sister. And so like in my mind, I kept thinking Albert's going to be like, like I'm nothing. And I shouldn't have been thinking about that. I shouldn't have been, but I was. And that was all I could keep thinking about, you know, like, was like Albert would be upset again is over here. Lane is coming. All these emotions are running through there. And then he was like, he asked me to give him a suitcase and I gave him a brown suitcase. And then he hit me on the head again. And I was like, right here. He just kept like hitting me right there like that. Okay. And so then he did that. And then I liked out again. I was having panic attack. And then I don't know what happened from there. I really don't. I don't know. I just know that I did lie. I did when they came. I did say, get a lift, whatever. You know that, but he never did. He never left to go play or not. I just didn't know what to do. And I painted the moment and I didn't want Albert to be like, try to hurt us. Cause we kind of get a lot of fights. Yeah. And I just want you to, that's the only reason that I made it the lie is because I knew that I didn't want to face the consequences of trying to explain to him all that was going on. Cause he was saying to me, you're trying to make this about you. This is not about you. And I knew all those things cause I've lived in it. So I painted and I just told a story and I was going to try to think of like a plan. I'm sorry that it might have delayed, like looking for again. I do not know where again I was. I do not know. I do not know his whereabouts from that point but it was still in the same timeframe that I gave you guys. So that wasn't, there was no contradictory to that same timeframe cause it still was about four o'clock. Okay, so go over. Chase, what do you got? Do you forget to rehearse quite a bit? And she says, and then he was on top of me again. This is what you hear in Liars just about every time the details an innocent person will recall like facial expressions, like the look on his face, the words, the look on the bad guy's face, the words that people exchange. There are none. You notice she forgot to add dialogue into her story here. And most importantly, what innocent people remember and she forgets the entire time, action, action. People recall the movements of others in all these highly emotional interaction more than the language because that's an animal part of our brain or mammalian's brain. And this dates back to the days we would remember being attacked by animals so that we could better defend ourselves. She completely fails to describe the actions leading to him being on her. An innocent person would say how that happened. He jumped on top of me, the movement. Then she says Albert's gonna be upset. She forgot about Maslow's pyramid right here. Think about this. Survival trumps safety. Safety trumps love and belonging. So she's at the bottom of Maslow's pyramid and then worried about something up higher than that. So all these emotions kept running through there. She says this. She says actually all these emotions kept running through there. As I was watching that this morning, my dog started laughing because it was so hilarious. Even that mammalian brain. And then there's like he asked me for a brown suitcase. She wanted to get that color in there. And I gave him a suitcase. Not I went to the attic or I left him alone with the gun and everything went and got it. Then she says I was having panic attacks. Oh, that's also not how that goes. Completely forgets to describe any worry about the child whatsoever. And it really is all about her. Stories focus on her innocence instead of any relevant details. Most of all, for this entire clip, see if you can spot how many times she uses eye accessing or takes her eyes off of her target to make sure she's being believed. You won't see much of it at all, if anything. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so many cultures across the planet which aren't connected by land. They're very far away from each other. Reach a trance state, which is really just a state of hyper focus, often internal hyper focus by rocking backwards and forwards. It's traditional. Why? Because if you try it right now, it'll work. Rock yourself backwards and forwards for long enough, repetitively for long enough and you really focus on your internal state pretty quickly. Now, why is she rocking backwards and forwards in this way? Because she's putting herself into a trance state to block out what's happening there. She may be doing it unconsciously. She may be doing some of it purposely. Here's all the other things that she's doing to make herself unavailable, though the interviewer here is very good at letting her just talk out, talk out, talk out. At the same time, as spewing information, as has been said before, she's doing her best to make herself unavailable. There's the rocking backwards and forwards. There's the idea of her being unconscious. So she can't access all the information. Information unavailable. There's the idea of she lost her mind. Well, if I've lost my mind, I can't go and get you the information from my mind. So I've made all that information unavailable to you. And then the idea of the panic attack as well because I had this panic attack. Therefore, I can't grab the information for you. And though I'm talking, talking, talking, talking, I really can't get the really, really good stuff for you because it's just unavailable. So classic example there of somebody who is most likely purposely withholding information in all the different ways that information is being given, made unavailable to us. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, Mark and I've called and Scott's called that the transfer for a reason because you make yourself emotionally unavailable. You can't talk to me if my brain is disengaged. Chase, I think the other thing that you brought up is how you would remember this stuff. The kind of shotgun pointing my face and it was about 16 years old. I'd never forget that moment. You know what I remember about that moment? The shotgun. I got to see the guy afterward and it was, I'll tell you about the situation sometime, but I don't remember the house specifically, anything about the house, except there's a dark door and a shotgun in my face. That was enough. That's all I needed to remember is don't let that happen again, there was quiet before we opened the door. So my brain, my survival brain, the one that I'm not in charge of, sat in there and said, hey, Greg, a good idea is when you knock on the door and you hear silence and some rustling around, leave. That's what your brain does. It's going to remember the stuff that matters and chase to your point. It doesn't remember. And then I felt and he felt and she felt. That's not how we think. That's not how our limbic system is designed to keep us breathing and breathing. And that's what it does. Another thing, if she's really emotional, she's dry sniffing. That's an interesting thing. I can hear, and Scott, I'm sure with your ears, you could hear that's dry sniffing like all crazy. Really interesting. All her dynamics again are around non facts around, when she gets down to things that are factual, I should say concrete facts, anything concrete, she's big enough. When she gets down to anything that's evidence that she's going to bring up, those things dry up. And we said this early, Chase, she has a spike in detail around a brown suitcase because that's evidence. They found this kid in a brown suitcase, I'm sure. They found him in a suitcase, I know that. So there's a spike around that because it's evidence. It's something she can protect herself with. There's a whole lot of stuff here. The main thing about this entire thing that should make you disgusted is this is her centric. This is not Gannon centric. This is two days after this kid disappeared. An 11-year-old child, an 11-year-old child who disappeared, that embedded confession with that suitcase, and then her talking about and starting to cast his versions at the father, regardless whether that's true or not, they fight a lot, which I think probably is true based on the body language. This two days ago happened and her child has come up missing. Her child, and I agree with you, Chase, if it's your stepchild, your child, you're an adult, you're responsible for that child. Scott, what do you got? All right, imagine you're in your house, or you're coming into your house from going to the store or whatever. You open it up, you get into the living room as you're going to the kitchen or whatever room you have to go through, and there's a big dog in there and it starts chasing you, and you can't get out of the door fast enough and it's attacking you. Do you think you're gonna have a panic attack during that? Nah, you're not gonna be thinking about a panic attack. You're gonna be thinking about all the things that are stressing you and bothering you during that. If you were having a panic attack and a dog started attacking you, panic attack goes away like that because your limbic system is on fire and you're trying to stay alive. That's what her brain should have been focused on like Chase was talking about before. Survival, it trumps everything, man. Once you think you're gonna get killed or something's gonna kill you, I promise you, that'll focus your mind, right? It's like a kidney stone. All your attention goes there right then and it's there until that is gone, until that situation's taken care of. And when people see that look on your face, when you go to the hospital, they know exactly what's wrong when you walk in because it's the same face every time they see you when somebody has a kidney stone. Your mind is really focused on what's happening. And if her mind was really focused on her survival, she would have had a panic attack. So that just instantly, I don't see how this other detective isn't laughing out loud. I really don't. And when the other woman comes in, she goes, she didn't get up and leave me go, you got it. Did you see that? Did you hear that? It's unbelievable. Now she's trying to cry. That's really bad. And like you were saying, Greg, that sniff is so dry, it's just like we started doing it now. Nothing, absolutely nothing in there. Her fading facts, as she said, she lied and she meant to lie. She's trying to save that thing but she's still saying, I lied and she's listening for that. It's classic fading facts as she goes through and talks about that. She throws her husband under the bus. We fight all the time and I would have done this but I was afraid. I didn't go yell for help and get help because I was afraid my husband was gonna get mad at me because he's mean sometimes. No, you don't think like that. Somebody's in the house and they've got a gun and they threatened to kill you and have your kid or whatever. If you get to the door, you're screaming for help. And you're not gonna be, the part about your husband fighting and you fighting would never even come up. That thought process would not enter into this anywhere. Yeah, she's worried about what her husband would think during, as she's going through the most horrible event that's happened in her life, the most horrific event of her life, she's worried about what he's gonna think. Really? You gotta be kidding me. Unbelievable, unbelievable but the worst part of it is where she's blaming everybody else. And I can't remember who said it before but it's trying to make yourself just look so everything's about her innocence. Everything's patching up her innocence there. Just gross. All right, we good? Yeah. Are we on now? Oh no. One, two. Yeah, almost one now, Greg. You're so close. I'm gonna give it to Chase. Yeah, I wouldn't, this is you. And I'm like pleading and like talking and like all these things going on. Like just back and forth with him and why are you doing this? Why did you hurt us? Why are you doing these things? And then it just started being like a hustle and puzzle, like back and forth. And I don't even remember how it kept going for, you know, like maybe I say five or 10 minutes but I don't know if it was that long. And then he was like on top of me again. And then I kind of lied out again because he's hitting my head again. Really? And then, yes, and then I was on the table that was inside, like in between the red blue table in there. He forced me in there again and he was trying to do it again. And I was just like losing it, losing my mind, like completely like Albert's sister was. And so like in my mind I kept thinking, Albert's gonna be like, like I'm nothing. And I shouldn't have been thinking about that. I shouldn't have been, but I was. And that was all I could keep thinking about, you know, was like Albert was gonna be upset again is over here, Lane is coming and all these emotions are running through there. And then he was like, he asked me to give him a suitcase and I gave him a brown suitcase. And then he hit me on the head again. And it's like right here. He just kept like hitting me right there like that. Okay. And so then he did that and then I blacked out again. I was having panic attack. And then I don't know what happened from there. I really don't. I just know that I did lie. I did when they came, I did say, get a lift, whatever, you know that. But he never did. He never left to go play or I just didn't know what to do when I painted the moment. And I didn't want Albert to be like, try to hurt us because we kind of get a lot of fights. So yeah. And I just want you to know that's the only reason that I made up the lie is because I knew that I didn't want to face the consequences of trying to explain to him all that was going on. Because he was saying to me, you're trying to make this about you. This is not about you. And I knew all those things because I've lived in it. So I panicked and I just tore a story and I was going to try to think of like a plan. I'm sorry that it might have delayed, like looking for again. I do not know where again I was. I do not know. I do not know his whereabouts from that point on, but it was still in the same timeframe that I gave you guys. So that wasn't, there was no contradictory to that same timeframe because it still was about four o'clock. Okay. So go over the timeframe with me. What was the timeframe? It had to be around like four. Okay. Cause Harley gets off at 430. Okay. And so Harley had just gotten home or no was on her way home or something. And, and my phone was like alerting. I knew Harley was on her way home and I was going to tell Harley when she got there. I was going to be like, look, this is what happened. We need to get help. I need to call 911. And all I kept thinking about was I, it's going to be my fault because I gave them, I gave him the code. He brought the carpet. He did all that. Okay. Did he fix it? No, I had already cut it. He brought the big roll of carpet. It's at the house. He brought that. Oh it is. Yeah. Okay. And where's that at at the house? It's in the back storage room. Okay. Is that the one that he was hiding in? Uh huh. Is that the storage room that he was in? Yes. Whenever you went down there? Yes. I put, I put the carpet back in the storage room. The reason I put the carpet back in there because it was laying like in the like. So the storage room was right here. It had fallen over at some point that all this was going on. So I put in, I picked it up and put it back like on the thing. I rolled it up. Oh. It wasn't all the way rolled out but it was like somewhat rolled out through the promotion and I rolled it back up and put it in the inside. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Are you doing okay? Yeah. Okay. So. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, here she's hand rubbing. She's stomping her feet like peach again. There's all kinds of stuff. But she gets a chance to chaff and redirect. She's back to a story about a tactile thing. She gets up and illustrates and even goes all kinds of ways. So she takes you away. She's chaffing and redirecting with a prop. She's laying out everything. This is just an old school liar. This is a person who is masterful at finding a way to get away from the topic. And then I redirect. She jumps up and she redirects. I put in the carpet like this. You give her a chance to get up and do more acting. We got a mime on her hands. This is a good one. What are you doing? Yeah. I'll tell you exactly why. We should shut up and be a mime. The only way she's doing the Marcel Marceau act here. Well, first of all, the interviewer's closing proximity. So the interviewer is closing in on the prey here. There's a beautiful change in tone here. Is that the storage room he was hiding in? She goes, well, because there's a conflict here. Like how did you get the carpet in the storage room and not notice that the problem, the guy was in the storage room, like conflict. She didn't, she's not worked this out. And so she goes into the full Marcel Marceau act because she needs to really distract the conflict that's happening there. It's beautiful to see fantastic stuff. Chase, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I'll just do one thing here. She spends 90%, 90% of this clip, giving you more detail about a rolled up carpet than the gun, her son, the kidnapping, the emotions, the description of the bad guy, and even the process of the overall kidnapping took place combined throughout the rest of this. This is the most dramatic example of a detailed mountain I've ever seen. In Guilty People, the detailed mountains are on irrelevant things. The detailed valleys are on specific things about the crime, where the crime occurred. So you're missing detail in all of those critical areas. That's what that is, Scott. All right, just one, there are two things. Number one, Mark, did you go to Mime School or did I dream that? I did. Okay. You told us that a long time ago. The Caribbean Mime, for those of you, for those of you who understand the world of Mime, do so. Do what? I don't do that anymore. Yeah, you do. Apart from just how awful and bad it can be in the old school of it, in the true Decruvian sense of it. Sorry, any of you Decruvian Mime artists out there. Okay, I'm gonna let you slide on this one because we're press retired. Yeah, I'll give you Walking Against the Wind another day. I wanna see you locked in a box, dude, so bad it can't stand. Okay. She waits for this kid to get home before she calls 911. That's her plan. She's gonna wait for a kid to get home before she thinks it's serious enough to call 911. Oh, wow, that's awesome. And she's in full panic mode. I mean, she's talking fast and she can possibly talk. She's loud as she's been up to this point. She's louder than she's been and she's just in panic mode because I think she's accidentally stepped in it here because she's gone through this in her head and she's rehearsed it in her head but she hasn't said it out loud. And now that she does, and she's looking at this detective looking back at her, she's like, she's not a pot in this man. So she goes into panic mode, tries to make it more emotional, but she can't do it because the emotions aren't there. When we make a fake emotion, it doesn't last very long. Last few seconds and it doesn't slowly go away like it should. It just, boom, we saw that with Amber Heard. One emotion and then back to normal. That's what we're seeing here. That's what we're hearing here. So this is, but the fact she's waiting for somebody to get home before she calls 911, the most horrific thing that's ever happened to her. And she waits for that. Ridiculous, it's ridiculous. Are we good? Yeah. All right, Chase. That's how you slide in on that. Let me give you that. All right. Yeah, man. Yeah, this is you. To go over the timeframe with me. What was the timeframe? It had to be around like four. Okay. Cause Harley gets off at 430. Okay. And so Harley had just gotten home or no, was on her way home or something. And my phone was like alerting. I knew Harley was on her way home. And I was going to tell Harley when she got there. I was going to be like, look, this is what happened. We need to get help. I need to call 911. And all I kept thinking about was it's going to be my fault. Because I gave them, I gave him the code. He brought the carpet. He did all that. Okay. Did he fix it? I just, no, I had already cut it. Oh, okay. He brought the big roll of carpet. It's at the house. He brought that. Oh, it is, yeah. Okay. Where's that at at the house? It's in the back storage room. Okay. Is that the one that he was hiding in? Uh-uh. Is that the storage room that he was in? Yes. Whenever you went down there? Yes. I put the carpet back in the storage room. The reason I put the carpet back in there is it was laying like in the, like... So the storage room was right here. It had fallen over at some point when all this was going on. I put, I picked it up and put it back on the thing. I rolled it up. Oh. It wasn't all the way rolled out, but it was like somewhat rolled out through the promotion. And I rolled it back up and put it inside. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Um, are you doing okay? Yeah. Okay. Um, so. Four o'clock is whenever... I don't want to tell you exactly four. I don't like saying that because I don't want to. About four o'clock was whenever... We can say about. Okay. Okay. And then what happened after that? So, did Harley come home? Yeah. Lain is still out and about. Harley's home, comes home or whatever. I'm pasting the house, like trying to think of a plan of like, what do I do? And I should have like immediately, like gotten on the phone, did whatever. But all I kept thinking about was, it's all my fault. It's all my fault because I was gonna say to me, you gave some stranger access to our home. You know, this is all on you. And in my mind, I thought I could fix it. Like in my mind, I thought I could fix this. And I don't know why I thought that. That was a horrible decision-making process. But it also was in a very emotional state that in normal situations, people can say, oh, they won't, I will call, I would do this, I would do this. But if you're not in a situation, everybody handles things differently. And I was making an irrational decision in a panic situation when I should have immediately, being an educator, being all these things, it should have been one of those things where there's immediate know-how to answer. And you might think, this girl's gonna be, wanna go fly to India. She's gotta be able to think fast. It was not that easy in the moment because my mind was in so many directions that I could fix it. I literally thought I was gonna fix it. And that was where it went from there. So I was gonna tell Harley, I didn't tell Harley, I face, face, face around the situation and was thinking, okay, if I don't have any kind of like information, like if I don't have a plan in my brain by a certain time, that's when I'm gonna call a 30. And so that's how. So you had predetermined a time that you were gonna call if you hadn't figured anything out? Well, I didn't come up with a specific time, but in my brain, I kept saying, okay, I got to act soon. But I knew that, I'm thinking by 6'30, like I need to make a good decision because, why am I gonna tell the girls? Because they're gonna be like, you know, like we're scanning, die at all, like we said, cause we were gonna all go eat sushi. So that was where that timeframe would have been like, what do I want to do? Go get in the car and be like, Gannon's not going with us. I couldn't keep going on and on with the irrational decision of not calling 911. And I had to stop the decision. So what happened? Yeah, Chase, what do you got? And just like she said, I should have immediately gotten on the phone and did whatever. You just did whatever on the phone. One thing that's throughout this thing that it's got, I thought you were gonna latch on to was that zero of her gestures up until now have matched up with her words. Dude, I'm hinting God, he can't see it cause it looks like a dentist wrote it with his feet. Illustrators don't match up. Okay. Here, you explain that. I'll go to my thing here. No, go ahead dude. Do it. Do it. Do a better job. This is the most incredible, even in good liars. They place details in the wrong spots, gestures don't match up, and they almost always make some sort of confession or admission of guilt for something other than the crime, which usually comes down to two factors. This is the cathartic response that feels therapeutic to us and just wanting to admit like, oh, I admit fault. So the interrogator's just gonna say, oh, he admitted to that thing. He would totally admit to this horrible murderer, whatever it is. And that's kind of the unconscious part of the brain. And we're seeing somebody here who's a good liar to a very certain type of person. Not everybody, which we'll talk about later. Scott. All right. What illustrators, what Chase is talking about is we illustrate, it's our brain, emphasizing specific words or phrases. Like I did just then, specific words or phrases. And when those things don't lock up with what you're talking about, and if it looks like this, they don't lock up with what you're talking about, they go extra or the behind, or they just keep going when you're done. That lets us know that you've got an internal dialogue going on, you're thinking about something else as you're talking about something completely different. So it may be similar to that. You're trying to work out a plan or work out the structure of something while you're talking, it looks like you're trying to be serious. That's why you're using those illustrators while you go on. That's what we're seeing here. And they've been okay up to this point. A lot of them have been off, but here it's just almost everything. I know there's a little lag in the video and stuff, but I don't think that comes into play here really because they're so far behind when we're seeing that. I think she's shutting down too, because she's stepped in it. Like I said earlier, she's realizing this sounds crazy as this detective's looking at her and the detective is coming on a little bit more like, oh yeah, tell me more about that. Which she hasn't done up to this point and it's unnerving, I think, for her to be seeing that happening. So she's like, oh no, this isn't going good. She's still in that panic stage. Waiting over two hours to call 911 when there's a dead person in the house? Well, she's no, she didn't say he was dead. He's just disappeared. Oh, okay, I'd say I haven't watched all these. I thought he was still in the house. Holy smokes. Yeah, that is never gonna happen when you have a situation where this is similar to this has happened. People call 911 when somebody gets their order wrong at McDonald's, you've seen those things on YouTube and she's gonna wait this long before she calls and wait for a kid to get home and then think about it because of her husband and all that. I don't know. She repeats that story about three times about calling 911 and why she didn't. Just trying to help that thing so it doesn't sink, but I think it's too late for all that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, four o'clock says the interviewer. She says, I don't like saying that. So she doesn't like the generalization of four o'clock. Well, if a story is true, if you're telling a true story and somebody suggests elements of it, if it's not around anything that is specific and germane, you're like, okay, yeah, four o'clock, whatever, because it doesn't really matter. The generalization doesn't matter unless the generalization matters. And clearly around this, she doesn't want to be tied down to any time, but she's not specific about what time. Okay, so if it's not a general four o'clock, like you give me a specific on what you're worried about within this specific. So I don't like the resistance to a generalization. Here, if it's about something that isn't meant to be germane or of importance, and then we've got an area which is just Begg's belief, which is we were gonna order sushi. We're back to the shopping cart again. And look, I didn't want to ring the police even to report somebody missing at this point, which is to my understanding from what I've been hearing is what she's saying. She first of all reported somebody missing and then I think reported abduction. I'm not quite sure about that, but I think that's true. But first of all, I didn't want to do that too early because we got an order for sushi in. Well, that's just, I mean, I don't know whether that's accurate or inaccurate, but it begs belief as to what many of us would expect you would do if your child was missing, you might call the police first regardless of the order that you have in or don't have in for sushi. Call the police first, order the sushi afterwards as a general rule. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, a couple of clarifications. She first said that the child had gone out to play when she told the police after that 911 call. And then I don't know if she's confessed that she was lying before now, but she's certainly going to do it in these videos. So let's keep our head watching for what she does here next. Okay, let me give you a few indicators that she's heating up her plate in her head because something has changed. She has gone from in my mind to now in my brain. That's a word pattern shift. That's a big word pattern shift. Something has changed. What's changed? We don't know. But that would be a red flag for me first of all. When she says that I don't want to be exact, she does another big regulator, Mark pushes him away, get it away from me. I don't want to be exact. And she leans in and you might think this lean in is positive, but this lean in is the romance are looking closer and closer and closer because now this person's starting to ask her hard questions. The other interesting thing is the guy has gone and the horror he brought with him left with him. Could you notice? There's no emotion. It's all just her talking and giving you facts. And the whole story is not Ganon-centric. Ganon-centric meaning this kid is missing for two hours. And I'm just ordering sushi. This is nothing big. Chase, she does two or three of your resume statements where a person tries to regain value by saying, flight attendant, educator. She does a whole bunch of that. The cop is now paying really close attention because she does two real quick mouths and says, sure, sure. With nervous replies that tell me that she's on to her. And then she goes into that irrational thing. I think that's it. There's plenty here to see. She's changing something, she's heating up, she's leaning in. Let's see how far she'll go. The island is huge. Four o'clock is whenever. I don't want to tell you exactly four. I don't like saying that about four o'clock with whatever we can say about. Okay, okay. Okay. And then what happened after that? So did Harley come home? Yeah, Lane is still out and about. Harley's home comes home or whatever. I'm pasting the house, like trying to think of a plan of like, what do I do? And I should have like immediately like gotten on a phone, did whatever. But all I kept thinking about was it's all my fault. Because I was going to say to me, you gave some stranger access to our home. You know, this is all on you. And in my mind, I thought I could fix it. Like in my mind, I thought I could fix this. And I don't know why I thought that. That was a horrible decision-making process. But it also was in a very emotional state that in normal situations, people can say all they want. I will call, I would do this, I would do this. But if you're not in a situation, everybody handles things differently. And I was making an irrational decision in a panic situation when I should have immediately, being an educator, being all these things, it should have been one of those things where it was immediate, no hot answers. And you might think, this girl's gonna be, wanna go fly to India. She's gotta be able to think fast. It was not that easy in the moment because my mind was in so many directions that I could fix it. I literally thought I was gonna fix it. And that was where it went from there. So I was gonna tell Harley. I didn't tell Harley. I paced face-to-face around the situation and was thinking, okay, if I don't have any kind of information, like if I don't have a plan in my brain by a certain time, that's when I'm gonna call authority. And so that's how- So you had predetermined a time that you were gonna call if you hadn't figured anything out? Well, I didn't come up with a specific time, but in my brain I kept saying, okay, I got to act soon. But I knew that, you know, I'm like thinking by six, six, 30, like I need to make a good decision because what am I gonna tell the girls? Cause they're gonna be like, you know, like we're at Ganon, Dayada, like we said, cause we were gonna all go eat sushi. So that was where that timeframe would have been like, what do I wanna say to you? Go get in the car and be like, Ganon's not going with us. I couldn't keep going on and on with the irrational decision of not calling 911. And I had to stop the decision. So what happened? So I called 911. Okay. And they said, hey, sorry, you know, this is not an emergency. You have to call this other line. Okay. So I called the other line and it was a four hour wait for them to get there. Okay. So four hours later, they came. I'm still in a panic set. I'm like, these people are nothing I say is gonna solve the situation. So I did say that, okay, unless it is time. Again, I admitted it's a very rational decision because it could have been more helpful to be honest and say, this is the description here to be looking for instead of like the situation being like, he was gone. And that was horrible. I shouldn't have done that because I panicked. Okay. And I made a decision. Okay. And so from then on, that's when you guys came. They came through, asked me questions. They searched the house, every room, flashlights, you know, whatever, whatever, they went outside in the garage. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so it's interesting. So when she's saying, you know, I told her lie, that's accurate. You know, she did tell a lie at that point. So that's the truth. And bang, she goes straight into symmetry on that. So that's lovely to see. Now that's not to say that every time somebody is telling you the truth that they're gonna go for symmetry, but if you can put that against other stuff they've done, you know, there's an interesting change there because normally she's super erratic, asymmetrical. And at this moment, when we know she's being accurate about saying she lied to the police, bang, she goes into symmetry. So that's interesting. Then she goes into the search story, which says there's gonna be some elements of that, I assume, which are accurate in that the police did come in and they did have a look around. Let's just assume that, but she's going into asymmetry here rather than symmetry. So my guess is, is something isn't quite accurate about the way she's going through. Here's what was searched and here's what played out here. I'm not quite sure what she's exactly she's hiding here because unlike you probably watching this now, you know more about this story than I do. But that's a great thing because you can have a better intelligence system in that you could take the information that I'm giving you, put it with the information that you know and come to some ideas about the truth and lies going on. And that's what we call intelligence, taking information and putting it together and coming out with an outcome that wasn't there in the first place. So I'm not quite sure what's going on with this police search. Chase, you got any thoughts about this one? Yeah, she's giving all these details about where the police searched. Where did they search the house and how thorough they were in searching but she's accidentally retelling a part of the first lie story that she rehearsed about being confused if he was in the house or not. She's detailing all the places of police search the house because it's part of her story where she didn't know he was kidnapped. So she forgot that those details wouldn't be part of the second version because this is where context plays such an important role. And when you hear a detailed spike like this here's what to ask yourself so you can hear all these statements like I do. In what context would a person worry about these details? In what context would a person worry about these details? And that kind of lets you know precisely if there's a detailed spike versus context this gives you kind of a what I might call a differential diagnosis there. See what's going on, Greg. Yeah, I think what we're seeing here is her now all of this story that she has made up is coming to fruition. And we can see it in her body loads and then I'll loop back and cover the other part where elbows are now locked to her ribs. They're not moving. She's turtling, she shrinks. The only time she comes out of that is when she's talking about the cops. And like you said, Mark, those are facts. Cops came and did this as Ness. She does a little bit of that front of the mouth talking I was talking about. She starts to try to supplicate the person try to get the person to prove of what she's saying she's supplicate with her and she's doing the front of the mouth talking and she says, I made a bad decision. What's interesting to me is just for a minute look at that video and put her hand down in a two point stance and tell me she doesn't like she's about ready to sprint out of the room. Mark, you always say your legs up under them and more ready to get out. She looks like if she put her hand down you'd think she's in two points ready to come out of the blocks. She knows that she's in a bind here. And I think any place she gets the opportunity to do this stuff she's going to if we go back and look at where she's had spikes in details, it's been evidence. It's been around hiding evidence. It's been talking away the evidence. All that stuff's coming to fruition now. She had a person she gave a code. She had burned the carpet in the house. There's a reason the carpet was cut. She had a brown suitcase missing. She went back going kept coming back and forth to the door. Those are all evidence spikes without a lot of body language to support them. And when she does get up and do something demonstrative it's around there was a green table or there was carpet rolled up. Ugly. Is it Mark? No, it's not. Scott, what have you got? All right. She's still in a panic after four hours. She's trying to get them to come over and talk about the missing child for four hours. And this is getting out of hand for her and she knows it. Still that's the point I'm squatting on because she's like you were saying Greg and Mark and Chase, she's shutting down. Everything's just shutting down for her. Her legs don't even move really at the beginning of that thing. They're just sitting there all together and she uses like Mark was saying, not being symmetric. She's being just one hand over here, then one hand over here, one over there, one over there. So she's totally thinking what she's trying to get apart, making sure and get across. Everything should be the way, to make sure everything is the way it should be. And it's not, it's starting to, she's hearing this timeline thing in her head and it's not working on the other detective and the detective's becoming more open and nicer as she goes deeper in the hole. And again, she's putting that together and it's not working for her and she's a little bit panicked. So I'll leave it there. Yeah, I would, this is you. So I called 911. Okay. And they said, hey, sorry. You know, this is not an emergency. You have to call this other line. Okay. So I called the other line because a four hour wait for them to get there. So four hours later, they came. I'm still in a panic set. I'm like, these people are, nothing I say is going to solve the situation. So I did say that, okay, let's at this time. Again, I admitted it's a very rational decision because it could have been more helpful to be honest and say, this is a description here to be looking for instead of like the situation being like, he was gone. And that was horrible. I shouldn't have done that because I panicked. Okay. In the next position. Okay. And so from then on, that's when you guys came. They came through to ask me questions. They searched the house, every room, flashlights, you know, whatever, whatever, wherever they went outside in the garage. Okay. Okay. So was there anything else that happened on Monday? Like, did you talk to Harley about it or? About what I told you? No, I told them just the first, like the first situation. Like what you told our dispatcher? Right, right, right. That, and that was that Gannon went to go play at a friend's house. Right. And do you remember the friend's house name? I never gave anyone a name or anything at all. And also too, like, I didn't want to leave out any key points or whatever. I had my headphones on because when I was like upstairs, when it all started, I had my headphones on so my headphones were still on through the whole scene. So that's why, if you ask me like where, like did you hear any noises? Did you hear anyone leaving? Did your alarm go back off? I had my headphones, I had my headphones still on. They were still on my head. When you came inside the house? Yes. Okay. Yeah, like I had my headphones still on and I came inside the house. Like, no, not coming in the house with them, but like in the house. When I went downstairs, I still had my headphones on. Okay. Yeah, like I did like this. Sorry, okay, so help me understand. Yeah. So when you came into the house, you didn't have them on, but then you had them on when you went downstairs? Yeah, because I came in doing like a normal, I would get ready to listen to music, I was gonna work out thing. Oh, okay. So I like, you know, you like move on back and forth. What kind do you have? Like I have beats, audio. Like the ones that go over or like they come in? Yeah, the ones that like, okay, like they kind of like smash your head and whatever. Yeah, so I always had to, yeah, I always had to like move them, you know, like back and forth and stuff like that. Okay. Yeah. And that's what I was doing, like moving them when I was like, do I hear something? You know, cause it's kind of like I heard something, but I weren't sure that I heard something at all. And that's when I started when I was there. Okay. And are they like noise canceling or anything like that? Or ambient sound? Or do they just do like play regular music? I mean, I think they would be voice canceling, right? Because that would be. I don't know, I think you can get them either way. That would be, I'm not sure. I think you can get them either way. Yeah. So. Oh, Chase, what do you got? When she describes lying to the dispatcher in the first, she says, I told them the first situation. That's the word she uses as if there's another situation cause she's using situation in place of lie. She doesn't want to say lie. So the first situation implies there's another one that came up afterwards. So she did that on accident. And you can now just see it and open now. And then she says, I had the headphones were still on through the whole scene. The scene. I think that she built that scene in her head. And what's happening here is where she's mixing up lies and just pulling a story that was old. She went through a story and then decided to make a new one. So this is, she recycled it a billion times in her head and rehearsed it and stuff. So it formed a deep groove. And when she gets under stress or what we call cognitive load, that story accidentally starts popping its head up because she's rehearsed it so many times that it came up on accident during the second situation. I think that's what she said. Situation, is that right? Yeah. Situation. I'll just leave it at that. That's just, it's as clear as it gets. Mark, what do you think? Yeah, it feels a little bit grim to me. Look, there's a new story here, which is the headphones. We didn't hear about the headphones in the first place. And there's a massive conflict here because she's saying, look, I came in with the headphones on and I go upstairs and I can't, well, hang on. Video five to my recollection, she says, as we got inside, I heard something. Well, you kind of both. You kind of, I came in with headphones and so I didn't hear stuff. And then at the start, you said, you heard stuff. So that is, that's a conflict. I mean, look, there's nothing non-verbal about that, but it's all about the behavior, isn't it? And there's two different behaviors. There's the behavior of hearing something and there's the behavior of hearing nothing because of something that you're wearing. You can't have, you know, the positive and the negative at the same time. And then this is the horrific part. Listen to the way she says that those headphones smash your head and the stress she puts on smash your head. That jumped out to me. And so my gamble is, though I could be wrong, I don't know this, but my gamble is there's probably some head trauma in the victim. And that's, you know, a psychological slip on her part of the murder act that went on. Or somewhat of the murder act that went on. Could be wrong, but I would gamble money on that at this point simply because of hearing that change. I wouldn't gamble my life on it. I wouldn't gamble anybody else's life on it. But I would stick, you know, I would stick a gamble on asking some specific questions around heads at that point to see where that goes. Greg, what have you got on this one? Yeah, a lot of the same stuff that oops she does when she says, I heard something earlier. She had already said she heard something which is the whole genesis of the story. Now I didn't hear anything. Oh, but she doesn't miss a beat. She says, I pulled my headphones back. You know how you do. And my favorite part of the whole time, well, she's already now, she's T-Rexed so bad with her hands. She can't even put her earphones on. Her elbows are so welded to her side. And this goes back to Chase's limbic discussion earlier as our body panics and is trying to protect our soft white underbelly. It wells her elbows to our sides to protect all of those internal organs and all these arteries from violence. So you can tear my fingers up, but I still got my internal organs. I can fight back. She's really bad. So I'm just going to walk through a couple of things. She touches her supersonal notch, which we say is insecurity around an issue when she's asked did anything else happen? And she goes to that iterative storytelling where she's going after telling what she wants you to hear and Chase, I agree with you. I would say you de-conflict in your head. We say in the true crime workshop, you de-conflict in your head and you roll over and over and over. And the danger with the longer you get to do it is that you leave remnants of old stories and those kinds of things. And those are neural pathways after you do it enough times. And that's going to come out. And it's going to come out in some cases in the wrong way. So there you go. So of course I couldn't hear. And then she de-conflicts again. She's either premeditated and put a lot of time into this or she's just a good chaotic liar. She's not a great liar, but she's chaotic and capable of pulling facts and using whatever she wants. She explains why she could hear it. I think this is a person accustomed to treating people like they're dumber than she is. That's my opinion, whether she is dealing with people who are dumber than hers a different story, but the detective knows she's full of it because the detective actually giggles and says, help me understand how you could hear this. Gotta love that. And watch the detective. Listen to how many times she uses the word like now. She's mirroring and matching. She's starting to pay attention to word patterns and her movement. She's going to go after and get more information as this goes. And then she does that. She asked her about the headphones or the noise canceling. She says, oh, you think they would be? Well, okay. Why don't we go get them and let's look at them? There's lots of opportunities. This person, as I said before, if this were not a tragedy, this would be a comedy because this is horrific lying. We can all see it. You can all see it without even using our words. Scott, what do you got? I'm surprised she didn't bring the headphones with her to show her. As detailed as she's been, all those things that protect her story, I wouldn't have been shocked. We would have laughed about it, but I wouldn't have been shocked at all. And to be honest with you, I don't think, I can't believe she didn't. I mean, I can't believe she didn't say, see, listen to this. You can see I couldn't hear anything at all. As detailed as she's been, second, second minute to minute on this. Now, I think she's fallen for that mirroring, the matching and mirroring because you're right. She's saying the same words. Her cadence is going the same way. Her volume is pretty much going the same way. It's a little bit higher. Her tone is a little bit higher than Latisha's, but she's still matching. I think she's falling for it because her feet are perfectly aimed toward that detective at this point. Her legs are together and their point right at her. Her full attention is on her because she knows that there's trouble there. I think she sees the problem. There's a hole in the boat. She's illustrating almost every move because she was prepared for this one. And as she goes through it, she's so prepared she can't give enough detail about this. She can't give enough because she's got, this one she's gone through a lot because she said, how am I gonna say I didn't hear this and this didn't happen. So she's thought about that so often that she can't get enough of it out fast enough to give her that information. She continues with the fading facts and I think she's still trying to connect with her, still trying hard to connect with the detective. That's all I got. Yeah, I know this is you. I'm okay. Okay. So, was there anything else that happened on Monday? Like did you talk to Harley about it or? About what I told you? No, I told them just the first situation. Like what you told our dispatchers? Right, right, right. And that was that Gannon went to go play at a friend's house. Right. And do you remember the friend's house name? I never gave anyone a name or anything at all. And also too, I didn't want to leave out any key points or whatever. I had my headphones on because when I was upstairs when it all started, I had my headphones on so my headphones were still on through the whole scene. So that's why if you ask me like where, like did you hear any noises? Did you hear anyone leaving? Did your alarm go back off? I had my headphones, I had my headphones still on. They were still on my head. When you came inside the house? Yes. Okay. Yeah, like I had my headphones still on and I came inside the house. Like no, not come in the house with them but like in the house. When I went downstairs, I still had my headphones on. Okay. Yeah, like I did like this. Sorry, okay, so help me understand. Yeah. So when you came into the house, you didn't have them on but then you had them on when you went downstairs? Yeah, because I came in doing like a normal, I would get a list in the music, I was gonna work out thing. Oh, okay. So I like, you know, you like move on back and forth. What kind do you have? Like I have beats, audio, like the ones that go over or like they come in. Yeah, the ones that like, okay, like they kind of like smash your head and whatever. Yeah, so I always had to, like, Yeah, I always had to like move them, you know, like back and forth and stuff like that. Okay. Yeah. And that's what I was doing, like moving them when I was like, do I hear something? You know, cause it's kind of like I heard something but I weren't sure that I heard something at all. And that's when I started when I was there. Okay. And are they like noise canceling or anything like that or ambient sound or do they just do like play regular music? I mean, I think they would be voice canceling, right? Because that would be. I don't know, I think you can get them either way. That would be beats, I'm not sure. I think you can get them either way. So just one more thing. Mark, what do you think we've seen up to this point? How's it looking to you? I think we've seen more than we've ever seen all at once, all at the same time. And so I want to say it again, you may well see behaviors there where you go, look, but I do that, but I do that all the time. Or, you know, I often do that and I'm not lying. I'm not being deceptive. Yes, but you don't do all of that all at the same time for hours and hours on end. And if you do do that all at the time for hours and hours on end, when relaxed, when not under stress, how did you get through this video with us? So you don't because you've been focused on us right now and not doing all of that. So look, don't worry if you see some behaviors that you know you do because you're not doing what she's doing. You're not doing the clusters that we look for. Chase, what have you seen so far on this? Totally agree. And the way that she shifts stories and deflection tactics could be a sign I think of a chaotic upbringing. So, you know, I always kind of go back to a profile here. So children who grow up in unpredictable environments very often learn to be adaptable and flexible with the truth as a way to navigate chaos. And finally, her ability to just maintain her innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence could suggest a level of delusion or denial. I think more likely delusion. Maybe we're not looking at a pure psychopath, just somebody who's completely deluded. This is common in people who experience a lot of trauma, abuse, and their childhood, maybe had to deny their reality to cope. So they had to dissociate a whole lot. And I think this speaks not only to her level of social intelligence, which is extremely low, but that she was genuinely surprised that it didn't work. So she just doubled down. She's been believed by other people her whole life, probably who had a very similar level of social intelligence. Greg? Yeah, I think what you just said is key. I think we started us off by me saying she's a matador. She's created this cloak, this cape that she uses to dodge the bull. And the interesting piece is if you look at her patterns, if you look at all this demonstrative stuff around facts, concrete facts that have no meaning. And then it dies off when she tells you these things that I think are evidence counters, where she gets to where she's doing this, is she talks about brown suitcase and those kinds of things. If you simply took that and you went back through this entire video and looked at it, you could build a picture of what she has done. It's that good. I mean, it's that easy. Scott, what do you got? I think this is a great example of seeing someone who is going in just swinging because they think they're gonna get away with this. And then as it goes along, they realize that it's not working. And they're not actually winning, that they're actually losing. And seeing these two detectives stay so calm during this without laughing, without the other one giggles a little bit, but I don't blame her for that. What are you gonna do at that point? I think it's just, they did a fantastic job with this. And I think it shows just about every cue that we talk about, everything from fading facts to illustrators to regulators, barriers, you name it. And we've probably seen it in these clips. I think it's a great video for study, actually. All right, fellas, think there's another good one and we'll see you next time. So what do you got?