 Good morning, it's 12.45, the fourth day of the RC3 2021 and I welcome you to the next talk. The next talk will be interesting. We have two guests. We have Gulliver and Mr. Schruf and both have the first talk on the Congress, but it's a not new subject. Things that take long will finally be good. At 34C3, the HECA EG was started, the HECA co-op, but it is now realized and today we are going to hear about how companies are refought and what is done already. Again, some housekeeping, you might remember it. You can ask your questions in different channels, IRC, Twitter, Mustadon and so on. We collect that, I can get a pet here and at the end we can talk about it. This talk is also translated here, so we also say hello from the translation booth. We are here, thank you for being here and tell us everything about VTF, the World Cooperative of Friends of Technologies. Hello, I'm Mr. Schietzu and we want to give you a short introduction about cooperatives or co-ops. Why is there a HECA co-op and what can we HECA with it or achieve using it? More specifically, the VTF is founded now, part of the general introduction is what you can do with a co-op. So first of all, who are we? Gulliver? Hi, I'm Gulliver. I'm one of the CTOs roughly of the VTF corporate. I'm management of the co-op. I'm software developer, freelancer and for cash machines or ATMs and I stumbled over the HECA co-op or HECA IG. IG is the German word for co-op and back to Mr. Schietzu. Yes, I'm Mr. Schietzu. I'm working for 20 years in the area of AT and I did a lot of different things and I like the idea and was fascinated by the idea of a HECA co-op and I was always missing people who took me by the hand and showed me what is all what all is possible and I paid a lot of time to learn that and a lot of money to learn it and we hope that that's an end or that leads to an end of those issues for all those young hackers for whom we want to create a base to get started in the world of business and a co-op is a great idea and why? That's something we will talk about now. First of all, small introduction. What is a co-op in itself? It's a German or European form of a company. It's a very old form of a company for several centuries already and in difference to most other forms is that where there is an owner or a group of owners, the co-op aims to work together. For example, the Herr Reifeisen, you might know him in Germany because there is a Reifeisen bank and these co-ops started with the hope that you can achieve more together than alone. The main aim of a co-op is not to make money but rather to help the business of its members. A normal company tries to get as much money and make as much profit as possible but a co-op wants to connect its members. There are two modes of a co-op. Usually, we have a club and a company together and both are within one organization. There is a company in addition to that. We have all the advantages of a company and in addition everybody has the same rights. We don't have parts of the company and the voting rights depend on how many parts everybody owns but with a co-op everybody can buy a certain number of shares but for every vote everybody has the same number of votes and exactly one. That way we have a discussion because there is nobody who can just overwrite everything and that's the advantage of a co-op. Co-ops are hidden champions. You probably already know some co-ops, whether it's Idyka which is a co-op in the buying and there are a lot of different structures that are based on this rule. We have different farmers who work together in a co-operation and it's a well-known method especially with building co-ops. We have a building where many people live and nobody can go there and just overwrite everything because he owns two flats rather than those who only own one flat and that's where the co-op is a great form because everybody just has one vote. For those who are more interested in ecological we have DATEV which is the organization that simulates everything in text questions and it's a co-op even if it tries to look like a normal company and even in Germany there are long large corporations. The work cooperative of Technique France we founded is a one year old organization. We have around 200 members but we'll talk about that later. So what are the advantages of a co-op? We want to advance the interests of our members that's the main aim. We want to protect the shares and we want to advance the interests of all members and that's an interesting base discussion because all members means all members even those who just join the co-op to have idealistic support. Every member in the main meeting has one vote and the most upper organ of the co-op is the Generalversammlung and they elect a number of green organizations and there we need a three-quarter vote of all members and it's very hard for small groups to tear apart the co-op and that's a foundation in the law that a compromise is needed to advance and those structures also make it hard for other companies to just buy the co-op or that a lot of people move away. That's something that's hard to do. The co-op still exists and you can always can participate in the decisions on how the co-op continues and moves ahead and that's where we are still finding our own rules. We have a general direction we want to move but how to realize everything that's something we will discuss next year. As a member of the co-op you have the opportunity because you are only financially responsible with the amount of money you paid in and that's just 100 euros in the co-op. There is no requirement to collect further monies due to liabilities and also it has the same tax rights as normal companies so the same taxes need to be paid for example the co-op is required to pay a vet but that's also the most bankruptly secure form because everything is so limited and controlled through the central agency. It's hard to really go bankrupt. It's very secure against bankruptcies. Yeah why would I want a co-op as a hacker? Maybe we already know it from a living co-op or housing co-op so as a hacker if I want to do business and projects first of all I want a capital company or a corporation so if I start selling things in my Etsy shop then I am a UG of the German law and I have a problem with liability because I have to I have liability with all my private property and that's a problem and as a hacker if you have contact to customers especially business customers you really want to have a company or are a company. You want to be a company and in Germany that is the Unternehmen of the Zeltcheft. It's a very small version of a GMBH that's the German version of a limited liability company LLC in the English speaking countries and it does cost something to found one so if you just want to do a small project you already have to pay this just a contract to create this company and it has to be notarized and you have to sign it at a notary. It has to be publicized in this it has to be publicized in the commercial register it has to be officialized with the financial offices so all in all it's 1000 to almost 2000 euros in costs and then it's nothing no work done yet no financial work no taxes no nothing so bookkeeping has to be done after certain rules that's about 130 euros per month and the end of year taxing or the work on the taxes of the tax office that's about 3000 years per year so this framework is quite big already and if I just have a t-shirt shop and want to sell merch merchandise so I really have to calculate if this investing is paying for itself and of course it needs certain skills as well you need to know certain tricks how to move around as a company but alone on your own it's a lot and that's where this co-op comes into play because it's a place or construction where we have done all of this already so you can focus on your business you don't have to deal with a tax attorney or any notary or anything at all so you can just profit of the services and that's why we decided for structural reasons to create a co-op so we created the hacker eg so the hacker co-op so you can start quickly with your topic and don't have all this bureaucracy I call it the paper world in Germany and it's really annoying I know from personal experience so you have a great business idea after two weeks of reading all the laws and the frameworks that everything is not that simple after two weeks usually you are too annoyed to do anything and so here the co-op handled all of this and almost immediately you can get started with your topic before we could found it we had to prepare a few things of course so there was the Fibit club you probably heard of it before this club is something like a funnel for the co-op it collected all the interested parties that wanted to become members collected the money for the co-op for the foundation of the co-op and did all the preparations because also creating co-op needs money and everything that was mentioned for the LLC also has to be done here so it has to be registered we have to create a lot of paper for it and to be able to do all this we created the Fibit and you could just enter it and say I want to have this many shares and then we started it and in December 2020 we had the meeting for the foundation of our co-op the Fibit is right now in liquidation it did its job and as its own judicial entity it's now in liquidation and everything else will be done by the co-op so the foundation of co-op was on the 5th of December 2020 and there were three founding members you need three members to find a co-op and so this was our first official meeting and then on the 13th 1st of 21 it was registered with the co-op register here is the number 1113 is our official ID and since then we can do work so you see in December of course nothing happened and still the financial officials in Germany wanted the declaration for 2020 and we are registered in Hamburg and they really want the declaration so in the beginning we had zero euro and an end of year declaration with zero euros and it's still a tax official has to sign off on that there were WTF facts so the core effects the year is not really over yet so we can't have the full numbers but we have a preview so within the year we achieved around 200 members 200 hackers said yeah i want to participate i like the idea or yes i want to use you for my projects and some want to make wanted to migrate the company into our co-op 200 people i think that's a lot already and we managed to have around 100k of money or sales or turnover i think the numbers are quite nice and from our talks we know that we are talking a lot with other co-ops and people who are interested so you hear again and again that the topic it and very capable people we want to do something but our co-op is very well off in that regard so there are two layers of management so we have the directorate the supervisory board and then there's the management management are those who are able to sign contracts and who are liable if something goes wrong and supervisory board and management both are volunteers so we have a few people who get paid in the office so we have a little staff and the office has to be staffed that's the center point that collects the money it writes the mail it accepts mail it provides certain services bookkeeping all this happens in the office and the wtf pays their staff considerably above base minimal wage even the new one and yeah we are also paying a bonus for the holidays so this is basically a machine room we're also most of the tickets arrive and that can't be done by volunteers because everyone under management and supervisory board they have day jobs and they cannot provide a service level for anyone there is an organogram so how is everything organized we'll talk about this because it's his topic yeah we created that at some point to have an overview who you have to talk to so the first three layers are dictated by law the general congregation elects a supervisory board and they supervise the management and super and they and the management is liable then of course and below that we have the office and below that we have a few teams then we have a podcast there's a working group business cases and that's the people who take care of all business contacts if someone wants to do a business deal they advise and talk about this then onboarding that's for onboarding of new members of course working group einkauf which is german for buying that's something that we apparently don't really need people who buy stuff and then working group development they supervise all the internal projects but maybe a small point about this we wanted to have a lot of works organized in yeah we wanted to have a lot of meetings in video calls but also digital communication because digital communication alone might lead to miscommunications so we wanted to have a lot of work organized in committees the email address is in here that's also something we created early on we had a ticket system so you could send in your questions and inquiries to these addresses and there's a ticket system for ordering or inquiries and requests there are a few internal projects I'll start with a cola system so the problem that we have is that we have people with single people with their problem with their projects and they have to have bookkeeping so we have to list all the money that came in and all the money that went out and in more complex cases we have projects where several people work together so for that I need more complex bookkeeping and whatever you want to call it but we have to handle the bills and with the cola system we want to handle this the second project the name competence inventory one of the problems in our first year was we don't know what we have we have 200 members but we have no idea what do they are they able to do and what do they want to do so people sat down and created a small web interface where people could enter their skills their will to invest time and yeah they could enter that as a member and this inventory is visible to all members and searchable for all members originally the idea was that someone said we need a marketplace for freelancers well we'll have to see what are our people able to do anyway yeah third running project at the beginning of the first year or in the middle of the first year we noticed we have to write things down we stole the idea basically to document everything using things in combination with markdown it's a good solution to create documentation technical documentation mostly and now we have a manual that all members can access where all the services of our co-op are accessible and how they are accessible how can i use the continuous integration system how can i i don't know how can i get money out of the co-op what do i have to do when i enter it's a project that's still being started oh yeah the project that's being still built up is payment aggregation for everyone what is that well it's aggregating small donations patreon whatever and to aggregate all these small amounts text them properly and hand it out to the people who deserve it and that's what we mean with payment aggregation i think it's an early stage as of now yeah so far for the running projects makos i give back to you the learnings yeah the learnings exactly for payment aggregation uh maybe i can say something about that you we can notice or we can talk about why a co-op is necessary each of you who wanted to appropriately use a shop or the internet to offer services or things that you have the problem with the payment manager you can quickly buy create a paypal account but if you create any turnover all the annoying things start and you suddenly need to get verified and with the payment aggregation is that we want to ensure that our customer can pay with any reasonable payment method on this world because we don't care where the money comes from we care that it gets to the person who offers a product or service and as a small company i have a or as a single person i have the problem because i have to write contracts with all payment providers and if i want to accept credit cards i have to take care of that and with the companies who do credit card payments i have to verify that my bank account is allowed to do all the information to create the the receipts i have to write the receipts i have to present the receipts and you perhaps remember that from gastronomy where we have a requirement to have the signatures on the that that are all things that happen on the internet and to receive payments is something that's quite hard nowadays and it's getting quite complicated and as a co-op we want to to to collect all those we they they you ask the others to pay at the vtf cooperative and then we look at the payments and and that way not every member needs its own his own contract with papal and so on for example patreon does something similar they they also do what the vb it does they collect money for projects and pay it out but they have significant fees that occur there and we don't want to do that and that's why we pay at the payment aggregation center subject and that's something everybody who is on company who has who wants to collect payments online is sees that that's a good thing or a helpful thing now what about the learnings the first important learning we had as vtf is that money is important but if we need money to move things but shut up and take my money does not work all the time um that was the first what we noticed the first time upon founding a lot of people say hey that's a great idea and i want to participate there and i just buy a couple of shares but then the third was easy to collect the money to have the base financing for the co-op itself however not that much that we can just buy all the business processes for example taxes or bookkeeping we can't just hand that over to some other organization and we say hey we have so much money that's not a problem it's an internal subject you have to be smart about it and we do have to need to do a lot ourselves and it's and it's not helpful to just add money on it because it's just draining away on the paper world with all the paper stuff for example data protection information we discussed about it a lot and how on how we can realize that if you want to ensure it in all different directions it's a lot of it's a lot of work and you have to talk with different people and every specific website information and so we need a pragmatic solution and in this situation we that's what we tried we got our members on board and just throwing money at the problem is something that does not work because it needs to be done smartly something else we noticed a lot of infrastructure work are helpful and if you want to start something like a cooperative and infrastructure that's not only or primarily to click an account it's not but rather to to think about how processes can be created or realized and HECA all come from technologies services they always find an idea how to solve it with software but that's not the process and an idea was the selection of a ticket system we we looked at two things samad and otobo and we choose otobo as a ticket system because it is able to do pgp and you can create great great processes you can modulate but we have operated this ticket system for a long time so first of all the pgp encryption is there but not the processes are missing so not the technology is the issue but the infrastructural thinking about processes on how they can be created another example the sign-up process of the cooperative you go to our website and say hey i want to become a member and then we have an introduction round and we have a small talk with you and if everything's fine we you have to pay for some shares and it's a snail mail process if you send us a request and in the beginning we had we thought about how to realize that smartly to ensure that we have as little paper sent around as possible that are infrastructure work that need to be done ahead of time then you should think about those if you want to become a company and be part of another thing is to talk about expectation management because we have a lot of talks here there are a lot of ideas that were created and forbidden or we we discussed what what can happen and during the founding of the co-op we had no clear target we always said we want to realize as many of those ideas as possible but the get a lot of people who have expectations and some members had great expectations what a co-op can do and it's a super cheat for everything to do with with the economy but unfortunately that's not true because we have to we are still in Germany and Germany is a paper tiger so we have this discrepancy between the expectations and the reality and that's something where I would take the understanding if you create something like that you need to have a minimalistic or the smallest first the first idea that you what you can realize is at first and if you look at it from top to bottom we have all these awesome ideas and awesome things we thought about and for example we build the hackers or buy a ship to drive around the world on all those amazing idea we want to produce food and bake waffles and all those other interesting ideas that were we're discussed while talking about waffles that's an idea but then the health society came around if you want to do waffles you need certificates and a lot of other things and at that point we have a great idea but in the end of the day everything slides by the way and we have to we have to ensure that you don't lose the motivation when everything slides down so the transforming of visions to reality is a real challenge and that's that leads to a couple of discussions on how that can be realized and why the reality is different and usually we have good reasons why these huge huge ideas cannot be realized so we also noticed and it's also part of the nerds every nerd has its own on on speciality and well learned in that we have a specific part and want to offer that as a service or as a product and you need business know how to do so you need to know how do I write the the bills and so on and we are lucky that this business know how is something we we have we have people who have already knowledge about business structures that's something we cannot expect from all members and that's also something we learned because in many places there is the we are still lacking of the the knowledge of in in these core subjects and that's also something that we are one or the other person is frustrated so where people say hey I want to do this and they say oh you can't do that because of reasons and yeah it's also that's also something that creates frustration to create and realize your own projects within the the co-op is a it's always a struggle or a long-term term goal if you have a business idea and you come to us and we say hey here we have this awesome awesome idea and I would like to sell it and we always discuss we discuss this about it in a group and we discuss on how we can realize it in the paper world and how can we turn it around in such a way that it's a reasonable business case and we need to reflect about it we have critical questions that need to be be answered and we get some some discussion points we did not think about and that requires self-reflection and especially expert knowledge in a specific specific sector of it for example it's quite hard if you're not the super expert but want to move it to into a yes this and that leads to challenging situations and just interesting discussions where somebody rage quits in in mumble and that's also something that's part of it and that's also something I noticed all the time even if if a mumble rage quit happens and and somebody is a bit more uses more powerful worlds yeah you get back together even if some people are annoyed by it not being quick enough the permission requiring for example payment aggregation and it's something where money laundering law is included earlier before there was a monopoly they went and collected all the payments to the to those that deliver to them they weren't allowed to do so because you mustn't accept payments on part of a third and if you're of a different person and you need to be have a bank license and that's the difficulty you have again and again and we have to think about it with payment aggregation same with food and health services and the there's just what instance that is responsible liable on a personal personal manner and and that's also an interesting subject yeah I talked about this earlier the topic of learnings because I think that we just don't know things you don't know and don't know that you don't know are very problematic if you that were very problematic when we founded the core and we're still working on that so what can you do with the with the core we have a postal service and and so in Germany you have to provide your address in about us and legal details and if you want to provide your own address you can provide ours then creating invoices as on a click is something we still work on so invoice as a service or bills as a service but we are also working on office things so you can work with the co-op when mail comes in scanning that the competence inventory inventory so if you're looking for people to do things for you and then of course technical and technological infrastructure next cloud ticket system a forum mailing lists all of this should be possible to be done using the core then we will create a lot more services in the near future and towards the end let me repeat what went well so a few success stories we founded a co-op in a zero trust environment a lot of people don't know each other and because of covid we couldn't change that everything was done remotely the first real meeting was a few weeks ago we built up an office that works we had a general meeting with everyone in march and there are members who had a complete migration of their own company into the co-op successfully and now they have their business only in the co-op and the plus me app you might have seen it it was part of the election it also carries the co-op developer account and we did that inside the co-op so what can be expected for 2022 of course we want to continue collecting competencies and see what our members are able to do we want to see what projects already exist and how to propagate them to the outside more business cases of course always more business and more selling and structures for selling and of course we want to directly talk to customers right now we are focused on the members but we don't have much content what customers can expect and another thing we want to do is payment aggregation implement that properly and but there are some hurdles still we have to take if you are interested in becoming a member or want more information about the co-op you can visit the website wtfeg.de it's on screen you can see the process what could be done and yeah so far from my side thank you very much the two of you thanks very much itso and gulliver there are a few questions in that chat i'm already sorting them a little first a big thank you and well done for all your hard work and that you not just wanted to do it but started doing it properly and some questions are more general and some are more concrete more specific if you agree i'll just go through them i'll have to sort them on the fly okay one question was do you also accept members from outside of germany is that possible to take part it is possible and we had that just recently the main problem from us so members from the us are special but otherwise within the e u it's no problem at all and other countries except the us is not very difficult but the s there's the factor convention or agreement a treaty so with them it's more difficult we are working on it a general question to the co-op if you get money want to get money from from banks are you in a better or worse situation than a normal company well in these cases because the co-op cannot go bankrupt other than maybe an LLC that's limited in the liability our co-op has a higher amount of money so a higher common capital stock or share capital so we are better off and there is even some help some assistance and i would say it's more democratic so we are better off than a classical capital company so there are grants and yeah we are better off and it's a good form of company what can be added to this it's more difficult to start because it wasn't so easy to get a bank a bank account some banks were just answering after a year something there were some online banks had not non-working software and such problems but once you have an account it works quite well okay then i have another question that goes in a similar direction you mentioned it a little bit do every does everyone have to agree if everyone is equal or is the the risk of group think well it depends what your role is or what role the question is targeting structural change there are laws for co-ops and that says if you want to change the structure you need a three-quarter majority but if you just want to do your business or your project and that within the co-op then of course you don't have to talk to everyone you have your own working group working environment and nobody else has to really agree with that there is a small majority so i have to have the majority if something affects the whole co-op but not your project so organizationally there is the whole membership meeting and that's for very basic things but in between management is responsible for the day-to-day business so management has to decide what happens but they don't do that alone we have this construction with the core team we have this roundtable where everything is discussed so theoretically management could be seen as a well-meaning dictator then i have a question about the competences so my employer sometimes looks for freelancers for his teams how am i contacting you can you help yeah definitely we have such questions quite often and we can just mirror them to our members unless the inventory already answers it directly so the address for that is always the office at address office at wtf-eg.de so this question fits quite well have you collected experiences so how are teams set up how are you setting up a competence cluster for a project well the process is basically quite simple we have our internal forum on discord where everyone can discuss and for some categories there are pitches and then people say yeah i like that as well or we could do it like this and then we have a discussion and then it goes to the working group business cases and we create a business case the team usually finds itself beforehand but some support things we try to keep the bus factor if someone sells like a service contract for a server for server service or servicing then it needs more people of course at least two with some stuff happens after a discussion and one or two just start a thing and then it's usually the case that others find themselves who help so as soon as you have something working something for demonstrations then others just come and have other ideas and help at a few spots it's either us or a few others that had an idea and just said yeah we're doing that and then the others just arrived that fits the next question what are the most most common business cases that you migrated into the corp well the business cases are mostly technologically motivated one where a whole company was migrated was completely different it was about facility management topics but usually it's about technological things i have servicing of mail service or i have this customer or someone a friend where i helped with domain hosting and others but i want to formalize that and maybe hand it over to someone else so this is topics where the co-op is really helpful it's usually it topics because it's a hacker co-op yeah so smaller software development projects that wants to have the accounting done by the co-op we have hardware development in the co-op i think a lot of administrative jobs are done by the co-op things like that and of course people who say i have these text things do it via the co-op and they scan everything and do the bookkeeping properly so that's another topic that we handle yeah a lot of questions with about that how are you how is the financing are there fees for members who just want to use the text service use it as a text service basically but that that work well we have to differentiate between the invoice as a service there's the entry fee so just like a payment service there's a flat fee and others office as a service or also at the mail service that's a product topic there is a fee per letter or mail item and if you have a business case then with a flat fee you are basically done then of course there is a membership fee that's yearly in the first year that has to be paid and probably this year as well and hopefully at some point we don't need that anymore but right now it exists okay so there's a lot of questions in that direction a lot of were answered i think in the talk one question i don't know how are you doing with crowd supply or something like that does it mean anything to you so crowd financing is a topic we are discussing a lot yeah and we have to think about it there are different prognoses we have one member who specializes on these issues so it's not a problem in general but what i didn't know it's not an easy issue crowdfunding but we could do that or projects that hand do it we could handle that and we have a member in our management who is an expert so yeah direct contact would be best could could donations be collected using the co-op yes but not as official donations and the co-op is of course a business and has to pay taxes and we are not so we have sales tax and of course we are not for the public good we are not non-profit so we can't have that do you want to get engaged in open source so do you want to set up a fund or help with that yeah of course of course a great answer yeah that's that's it yes of course yeah please continue well i would say on the one hand open source is is brought in with the members because they are they like volunteering and it should be open source then at this point where we say we don't need money yes but our capital so not it's not just money it's our our funding is also in people in skills and people who can set up a next cloud or ot s drone all whatever they are called jitzy all of those and if you take something from the pool you want to give something back that's the idea so participate instead of just replace and can i can you also handle bitcoin or can i maybe have payment via crypto that is actually a topic about the payment integration and the answer is usually it depends but we have to talk about it because many people want to do that want to do crypto in some form or another and we have to check if we can actually do that okay can we have the membership fee as can i handle it in another organization we have to see that's a very specific question so what's the email address if i want to know more do you have a public forum especially 101 so we have a small q and a session but is there something that we can use some public manual is there something linked yeah there is the tele or martin so it's a big blue button room at wtfeg.de slash bbb and that's an onboarding meeting and then of course there are the mumbles and so on yeah i think a lot of detailed questions would really fit in there there was one very interesting one i have to scroll down because it gets more and more so awareness and equality how do you handle that we have one member who handles that she is part of management no of the supervision board but of course the environment where you get to know each other that's on our agenda agenda and so far we didn't have any problems if you can say it like that so that is apparently a 404 in the website for the train ticket yeah the the promotion ended okay maybe a question that's nice as a finisher so will there be a wtf camp a coop camp in 2022 we hope so that it will be there in some form and you'll know if you either check the website on a regular basis or come to a meeting tele beer or tele martin and we are creating a newsletter for non-members but it doesn't exist yet so visit the website the podcast everything is there there's a blog post there are blog posts all of that okay i got a good question now did what where the projects you didn't want to do is there a vote of by the member maybe something about fake news propaganda yeah we want to develop something concrete but we want to say no crime no politics no sex that's the rule of thumb that we use right now so you said there are talks for new members something like an interview okay yeah there we check what do you want to do how can we do that and we had to say no to some things we had to refuse and i feel sorry for people who had a lot of work with that but that happens and if something is very risk heavy and when the management then says that might be dangerous then the supervisory board gets included so we have a lot of eyes on the business cases okay great and i get a 404 now so i think a lot of thank yous come in now and i would say that's a good end point tele martin sounds like a great way to meet and then we can talk about all the details finances taxes and so on things again for you talk it was fun i'm happy about all the questions nice development based on the echo from back when and see you soon on the next talk yeah thank you again if you want to say something now's the time thank you very very much to all those people who made it possible by the volunteer work thanks to the admins to all the website office all the work that has been done by volunteers and next year everything will be better doing is everything and thank you thank you also for your attention from your translators