 Hello, I'm Susan Matthews. I am Slate's news director, and I'd like to welcome you all to another social distancing social from future tense Apprenticeship between Slate, New America and Arizona State University Today we're going to be talking about how the pandemic has upended the meat supply chain and I am joined by Henry Grabar a staff writer at Slate and Chris Leonard Who is the author of the meat racket the secret takeover of America's food business and coke land the secret history of the coke industries and corporate power in America Henry and Chris welcome. Thank you for being here So I wanted to start by asking a sort of simple question Which is that for me during the corona virus? I have started to realize that a lot of things that I thought were similar are not actually as Similar so when I used to go into just my chain grocery store I was kind of like oh, I'm buying things that are not necessarily local or not necessarily the right thing to buy But they're all kind of the things that I buy in the grocery store The thing that I feel like I have learned during this pandemic is the meat is a lot worse Or that's how it it seems to me So I wanted to start by asking you both Basically, what is the deal with the meat that we buy in the grocery store and why is it different than many of the other things We're buying in the grocery store right now Henry you want to start I don't want to like just jump in Well, I guess one important thing to understand about meat in the United States is that there is enormous consolidation in acting particularly with pork less so with Paddle and poultry But what you're seeing during the COVID-19 outbreak is that some of these plants that Section of New packaging in the United States have been picked with the virus and so I don't know if you saw the story in the watch one post yesterday, but So the number for example at Tyson's which Is Processing company probably sells chicken in your local supermarket. They're enough the number of employees at Tyson alone They have COVID-19 is up to 7,000 And so you're starting to get down and we're starting to realize that for me There's this enormous bottleneck that's built into the system at the packing houses And I don't know if there's an equivalent to that or something like lettuce or pasta I can say that there's there's really not To be honest, I mean Across all these kinds of foods you see consolidation in action, you know a few big companies process a lot of the Food products would be like, you know how corn is milled into all these different products basically four companies can pull back but meat is Meat is very extreme in how consolidated it is, you know Four companies produced about 85% of all the beef You know two companies nice food So it's extremely consolidated And just just Henry described and you know one one detail I'd like to throw in there So when you go into grocery stores, you see this Denopoly different brand, you know, you might see like 12 different brand names and all these different Most of those do trace back to the big four, so it's really the solution There's all this diversity almost all of the meat products you buy Will trace back before good And and and I also have to say and we kind of touched on this It's not just that four companies control, you know, their strategy for decades has been To consolidate the actual production in the slaughter What they're trying to do is move for producing in as few slaughterhouses as possible and as large Because that's how you that's how you maximize the profit market And we can talk about the whole thing but in essence they invest millions and millions of dollars to build these mega slaughterhouses and When you do that you just want to run as many animals through as possible. So it's it's All of our meat production not just a few but Relatively few time slaughterhouses at that moment and that exact construction of Just a few mega slaughterhouses that have to run at maximum capacity Have to have lots and lots of workers inside at all times working on them is exactly what made them so vulnerable to the pandemic I Mean, I think this is the first time we've seen something like this chicken poultry in particular is notorious for Workers facing dangerous and sometimes abusive conditions on the line In many cases, it's tied to the work the nature of the workforce itself, which is composed Largely immigrants in many places. So these are vulnerable workers who may not feel comfortable You know when HR poultry is less unionized and pork and beef is So generally those plants have had a reputation for being not great workplaces I don't know if there's ever been a parallel to what we're seeing right now, but It certainly seems that the bigger plants have been the ones where the family's really taken off and they haven't been able to I mean They've been saying that they're installing things like temperature checks and flex a glass screenings and all this kind of stuff but but ultimately it's not clear if those protections are going to be enough to change the fundamental nature of the work which is that all these workers work in very close proximity and And in the environment that seems to be pretty conducive to transmitting the virus Right, and I know Henry that you've done a bunch of reporting on these workers specifically And I was wondering When we when we look back at the past couple months about what has happened in these factories like how I think that there was a period of time where there was like a real worry that this could happen in these factories but there wasn't really any push to shut them down because it would be so catastrophic to the supply chain to to shut them down and then the outbreak started happening and You know there have been some Closures, but it seems to me from my read that a lot of factories are opening back up right now And the question is really how safe is are the procedures that they're opening in there and also as you mentioned This is a particularly vulnerable population that are the workers in in these in these factories and so how does that factor in I We can still hear you Henry All right, well, I'm I'm still you can be a disembodied voice for a moment To answer your question, I I Don't have a lot of faith in need packing companies to make permanent changes that will ensure the You know safety and well-being of their workforces I think the parallel that I'm most familiar with is with Immigration raids where you've seen immigration authorities come down on these plans and say you've been employing all these illegal Workers using stolen social security numbers or something like that and in some cases these are massive disruptions like in with the post-bill raid in 2008 Where you set hundreds of people arrested the whole town's economy basically and even the society basically ruined and After a while business returns to you know, so I I don't know that you know, they are able to keep Production moving. I don't know that you know that they're gonna go out of their way to really come take care of their workhorse Yeah, I mean could I color that in a little bit? I Think Henry's exactly right everything he just said The problem is let's assume that today you're placing food and you're running a huge 100 multi hundred million dollar slaughterhouse where Hundreds if not thousands of employees are working shoulder to shoulder side by side. They get dressed in crowded locker rooms They eat lunch in very crowded cafeterias There's a reason these have become public hotspots. They're very very dense work environment and For Tyson to slow it down It doesn't just disrupt the supply chain, but it So they've been faced with this choice Trying to go in and radically retrofit these plants because the plants have been built with one goal in mind Much production as fast as possible with as many employees on the ship And so now to try to slow that machine down to get in and try to fix it to make you know workers stand further apart It's a group to fighters between them. I mean we're talking about a massive retro fit Which is not impossible by any means but it sure is heck is going to slow down production and hurt their profit And go ahead. Sorry. Well, one other question that I had is that that's obviously the incentive of The factory owners in this situation but one thing that I've been reading a lot about to about the people who work in the Processing plans is that this is a population that is largely low income It's people who work a lot of overtime who rely on a lot of overtime in order to You know supplement their wages and so when their hours are cut and also even when they're forced to take sick leave That's a really big problem for them So they want the safety but they also need to be working the amount of time based on how their pay is constructed So it's kind of an interesting. It's like a push on both sides in some ways That's that's long been the dilemma in some of these places after the raids in mississippi last summer We saw some democratic politicians saying well, how come the workers are being punished But there haven't been any fines on the companies and they started saying well We're going to go in and we're going to take these poultry processing companies So we're going to we're going to make sure that they pay the price for employing undocumented immigrants And the result of that is that they fire everybody. So it's one of the it's it's You know, it speaks to the larger picture, which is that until there is a federal Uh, there is federal action on undocumented immigrants in this country There there are no good solutions at the local level for for this imbalance that that exists And you're right that you know, it doesn't doesn't do these poultry workers any favors necessarily To see these plants Downsized or shut down Chris, I'm curious if you've heard if you have any thoughts on what you think one of these large Operating factories could do right now to make things safer and better for their workers that maybe they are trying to do Or maybe they are saying that they're doing Well, they face the the same dilemma every single business is facing right now You need to create space between workers. You need to reduce the density of employees For example in the locker room in the cafeteria and then out there on that factory floor, you know Henry, I'm sure you've been in like a poultry plant on the quote debone line Where workers are cutting apart these chickens. They are standing shoulder to shoulder and that's we're going to see that in pork and beef And chicken. These are very high intensity operations and so What you need to do is create physical space between workers and then stagger your workforce Or create some way that people can get a safe distance from one another That's Very very difficult because I can't overstate enough these companies have been pushing in one direction for decades as few plants as possible Many workers working as hard as they can for as long as they can in very high density operation and I do want to follow up, you know, Henry pointed out just very much by design these companies Have very intentionally broken labor unions sought out employees who are going to be hesitant to speak up So that the employees don't have a voice For bargaining power when it comes to figuring out how to make these adjustments You know right now the company's approach seems to be That over the metal, you know, we're a thing to have you know, stay on that same line We're gonna keep our shifts at the same number of employees And just hope you don't get sick basically And also that the usda has gone along with this and the usda has said that the lines can speed up I mean, this is just even in the last few years. We've seen decisions saying that a you know Core processors can inspect their own plants instead of having state inspectors from That that that lines can speed up meaning like the literal pace of means moving one from there about Can go faster than it could previously that obviously puts more pressure on workers It makes the job more more dangerous and more difficult But it also increases the economies of scale at which these larger plants operate, right? So when you have a plant with a thousand workers and a giant conveyor belt for me moving Moving all that meat, you know Across the factory floor in 55 seconds instead of 57 seconds That makes a big difference when you're processing millions and millions of chickens That advantage isn't going to recruit in the same way to a mom and pop slaughterhouses That 10 people working around the table so the federal government has Be regulated in such a way that both makes emissions more dangerous for workers And increases the incentives to consolidate, which is why we're seeing the problems at the same time So I wanted to talk about we have one question from the audience that hits on something I wanted to talk about anyway, which is from michael samansky who asked Would it be advisable to push for smaller more regional Me processing facilities, which I think the answer is yes But one thing that I've been thinking about A lot during this time is I reported a story from a farm in georgia several years ago white oak pastures It's a farm where the it's like a fifth generation farmer in really rural georgia His father was a cattle farmer and he eventually completely read his firm via the savory method where he Diversified what he had on his on his land He had chickens and cattle that were you know moving all around and it was a whole cycle and he had He had just gotten usda approval for his slaughterhouses Both a cattle slaughterhouse and a chicken slaughterhouse on site and when I was there I was there reporting on bald eagles. Actually, I was working out of a magazine at the time but when I was there he was like so Interested in telling me about this and was talking about what a big deal It was that he had his slaughterhouses on site and I like didn't really get it But now I feel like I really Get it and I'm curious and the thing is obviously is that his products were more expensive He sold things directly to consumers and he sold the whole foods And it was just the price of his meat was higher and that to me seems like the first barrier But I'm curious for both of you What what are the other barriers to getting to what seems to me to be an obviously more advisable approach of having smaller regional meat processing facilities Well, I'd like to jump in. I mean Henry just talked about how the company has been speeding up the lines Meat companies have written our public policy around the meat industry for 30 or 40 years They have written our policy And one of the things that that most interested in is consolidating ownership, you know companies have Basically overturned anti-trust laws. They used to block mergers and and keep competition We've moved away from that in this country. So what all these companies did is they bought out their competitors And then they shut down the smaller slaughterhouses and roof all the production means these mega slaughterhouses so what the reason I'm talking about this is When we revert to a more decentralized Regional meat system We're not even talking about, you know mom and pop farmers with the chicken food. I mean you're talking about You can still have pretty large-scale industrialized facilities Just not these mega highly consolidated facilities. I mean back in 1978 38 companies in the chicken business controlled after market 38 We had a lot of chicken back then wasn't like people were going short Now two companies Own that same share of the market So I don't think it's necessarily this choice between this extraordinarily consolidated system We have today and then very small-scale farms. There's so much we could do by promoting competition You know decentralization and breaking apart the big meat companies to get us much closer to the system We have some resiliency You know, which is exactly what we don't have One of one of the sorry henna. Did you want to go ahead? Well, I obviously there's two ends for that right? It's like number one our consumers willing to pay an extra two dollars on every pound of ground beef Which is made because it You know one of the what the industry would say is the great success story in the last 30 or 40 years is that meat has gotten so cheap I mean Me used to be a luxury for many people and and nowadays it's just it's just astonishingly cheap and That is that is kind of the trade-off that we we've made I saw an article in politico several days ago that said that Direct to consumer meat is flourishing right now because Because of these bottlenecks basically the people are kind of taking this opportunity to investigate how they might begin to care of meat from a local farm around them or something like that and I also saw an article about a A group of power producers in south dakota that are restarting a small beef packing plant that's been posed for 17 years and It's basically exactly what you can say, you know, they're thinking Uh with six to eight and four years working five days a week, you know, nothing's 24 hour Round the clock operations and they'll be able to Insulate themselves from COVID-19. It'll be a lot easier to sort of manage their workforce. It'll be a more humane workforce also More control for the producers, of course that only works if someone's out there willing to buy what presumably is going to be sort of premium Premium price beef and and I hope that they are I think there's a sign there are there are consumers out there The last thing I'll say about that is that I also saw uh senator john cartoon of south dakota Say a couple days ago that he wanted an investigation into how packing has become so solidly so And this is an interview in the context of COVID-19. So while some of these trends may be Independent of of the pandemic it seems like maybe the pandemic is the moment where people start to realize that there is Weakness in the consolidation of packing industry as well as low prices Well, one question that I had one of the Truly horrific stories that has come out of this is the stories of the farmers who who raised the cattle on the pigs And the way that they when the factories are shut down They can't send their cattle to those slaughterhouses and they've had to euthanize them themselves And the like actual trauma that it seems like is coming out of the the farmers having to do that. And so my question is It is that in event that before The the farmer was sort of bought into this system And now the farmers at that level have a good reason to not be bought into this system Is that one of the turning points where? That ends up being those people are coming together to say actually we can have our own slaughterhouse here We can have we can we can do this at a more local level well You know the the current Structure started with the chicken business And that was the first meat business that was really industrialized and one of the key components of you know streamlined and industrialized Taking over the farm Stuck over the farms to contract So the farmers on the land the under the house But they grow animals under contract with companies the company really has total control of the farm The chicken industry built out that network And then use their cash to build out a similar network in the pork industry And as they built out all these highly industrialized pork farms It sucks the oxygen out of the open market and and the reason i'm talking about this because they Suck the oxygen out of the market that independent farmers need to survive so people really didn't have a choice Over the decades you either raise a large scale on factory farms under contract for a major company Or you're not really in business. I mean you can try to make it go a bit um as a sell directly to producer Small farm some people have been very successful on that but by and large Your viable producers who do this for living are going to have to raise under contract for a company and have very large operation That's what's been going on for 30 or 40 years. So now It is very difficult to be independent I mean, we're we're in a position where we've destroyed the markets where an independent producer needs to be able to sell their product And again, henry talked about the bottleneck I mean you've got to work with these big for me producers or you can't really get your products to market. So Uh to create a change would take a lot of time and a lot of work It's my thinking on that. So, you know, they're big big horses that push this position where we are now I think that's that's all right. I think and I would add that um while cattle producers or or hog farm Cattle producer or hog farmers may feel that they have little agencies Um, when I reported this story from Cremont, Nebraska Costco had basically Installed this gigantic chicken plant in a region that was not full of chicken farmers It wasn't like they were displacing an organic ecosystem of chicken farming that led straight to the supermarket in Omaha, right like this was a company coming in and as they're saying like Signing these extremely restricted contracts with neighboring farmers Many of them had never raised chickens before in their lives or if they had it was a childhood chicken coop or something like that But the Costco would come in and say, you know, you build this chicken barn. Here's how the financing works We own the chickens from from from the egg to the slaughter and you just take care of them for us. So The chicken farming goes where the plants go, right? It's not like Uh, it's not like the you know, that if the Costco plant shut down that those farmers would still be there And they'd be starting their own thing and I imagine that um That if the Costco were to you know, close that plant and move away or friend proposed it because of the unionization That order something that those the chicken business the chicken grazing business in that area would dry up And it would go somewhere else where a process Right Uh another question from the audience is If inspections become an issue when you start to decentralize the slaughterhouses I think that's actually one of the largest turtles. It's really fascinating the way our inspections regime is set up Is that the company and henry just might have changed too. It's not like the line speed changes But basically the company has to pay For us da inspector to be on site and that's a very costly program. It helps food safety Uh, but it's it means that if I was to open up a small slaughterhouse here in marrowing I would have to get a us da inspector on site That's a lot of paperwork. There's a lot of money and that's been a huge hurdle to getting new people to come into business Uh, it's not insurmountable. It's just that people need to pay attention to this And try to help change the law so it's more amenable to competition But that's been one of the big problems with the companies And that goes to one of the things you were saying earlier susan one obviously One thing that distinguishes me from everything else in the biden city market is that It is a more fragile Supply chain from start to end. It's not it's not like getting crackers or something like that That makes everything a little more well that that kind of leads me to my next question, which is the The pandemic aside, I think that there also has been a lot of conversation recently about how How much meat we should be eating and you mentioned henry that like the prices of meat have gone way down Which allows us to eat it much much more And there's obviously the question of climate change that comes up here about how sustainable it is for all of us To be eating meat In at the amounts that we do and if one part of the solution here is consumers really realizing that the amount of cheap meat that they're eating is Is too much and that there's a There's a demand for that going down I would be surprised if americans are actually eating less meat. I haven't seen any specifics about that, but um But it seems unlikely to me given the horror stories we've seen about factory farming and climate change the thing that finally Changed the consumer's minds about the ethics we need to be like the North Pacific region and I I don't myself like don't see any connecting the way people eat meat or buy meat Yeah, but it's just an agreement like a great point and it's really hard to comment on the fact is Well prior to the focus It provided us with studies But when you ever start talking about reducing consumption and couldn't be a bad thing We got to tackle the problem of eating the source of protein or you know You know, we'll have some people make this a source of protein that When you start talking about making it more expensive That's a super super touchy issue because then people might have less protein in their diet and believe me I've been on the circuit talking about the stuff I've been so hammered by vegans at every single place where I talk and they will find out You do not need meat for a healthy diet. You just don't but When you face the reality of somebody working to job and trying to feed their family Meat is a part of people's everyday diet. So yeah, we could totally eat less and some of the shortages we're seeing today are real but also very specific, you know, like Boneless chicken breasts might disappear But there will still be other cuts of meat that just aren't as high of a quality so you can still You know get the nutrition you need Uh, it's just not as a specialized product So what i'm saying is like you can survive you can feed your family there can be more That you can do and we've done without meat in the past at this level for sure But it's hard to talk about it because the meat industry for sure accuses you of you know wanting people to not have food Yeah, do you think Go ahead You know There there is an alternate model where meat is slightly more expensive Uh, the industry is made up of it's slightly less consolidated money is more spread around and more local And meat consumption is slightly lower, uh, the prices are higher, but um, But I agree that that that that may be that may be a tough sell on the other hand the fact you have Republican center from South Dakota calling for inspection and for basically consolidation Give me hope that maybe that could be Passing my coat out And can I please jump in here really quick? I get so I mean you're totally right meat is cheap Uh fact it's it's particularly cheap when you just were in place compared to how much it costs To raise a pig or raise a chicken back in like the 1940s Industrializing this process made a pound of meat cheaper, but I I must point out The the the meat industry today is not competitive It's controlled by an oligopoly and monopolistic companies like Tyson foods and jbs And the data is totally clear that for example in the chicken business They've been steadily raising chicken prices for years and Tyson foods profit margin before this pandemic hit Was this crazily predictable ever larger profit margin year by year? There's been so much written about this and there's some huge private sector antitrust lawsuits that have been filed So yes, relatively it's cheaper, but they have been raising prices Because they've done a good job of stifling competition Well one question that I wanted to ask is these problems that we're seeing in america with our Meat supply chain and but also americans as we know eat more meat. Is there anything similar to what we're experiencing right now that's happening elsewhere in the world just comparatively Henry have you seen anything? I feel like particularly in this pandemic the theme of looking at like what's happening here and then looking and seeing if It's a problem anywhere else really helps identify uniquely american pathologies Right, and it's usually not good. I mean um, I haven't seen Look europe I'm not saying their system's perfect, but it's not nearly consolidated and I haven't seen a word about stuff like this Going on in europe. Um, I haven't really read any stories about anything we in terms of consolidation We lead the pack we lead the world by like a mile But then you've also got to disaggregate We are getting hammered by over 19 worse than most other big reasons But no, I haven't seen anything like this right? Yeah, I don't know the answer that sorry That's okay. Uh, we have one more audience question Which is uh, what about looking at other food sources like venison one thing that I looked at about the um You know the farmers who have this excess of animals on their property is that they've sent some of them to Hunters to be butchered appropriately Um, and I think that another another theme that I've seen personally with my friends is the desire to like Have your own garden during this time and the the resurgence of self-reliance in a in a certain sense. I mean does that get us Anywhere close to where we need to be The farmers would send a hog to a hunter as a way of like basically Circumventing the kind of uh bottlenecks in the supply chain and like creating a kind of bootleg Direct to consumer system. Yeah, I think that the thing is is that they definitely can't sell it if it's been and chris maybe you actually know the answer this was just from a Time story about the farmers that were euthanizing their animals One of the solutions that they had found was having some of them locally Butchered and I I would assume that the that means that you can't then sell the product that you have to give it away Uh, or just consume it yourself or or something like that I'm not tuned into that um one more question How are the plant-based meat substitutes doing during all of this like this is kind of their moment you would think and You know, they have a really good argument right now for why their product might be superior. It's more reliable It doesn't have some of these labor issues. It doesn't have Uh, you know a lot of the problems that we're seeing here Have you seen them trying to take advantage of this specifically? I have not and and I do want to point out where we are today Those products which are having the moment and do you have a good case of being made? um They they were just getting traction to remember, you know over the last couple years They were just starting to break into the mainstream And they represented a tiny tiny slice of if you're calling the protein or meat sector You know just the vast majority of the meat that people eat every day is coming from the large Big four, you know, Tyson Hardwell Smith which is yes So I feel like they were a niche product that was just starting to gain traction And um, I have not seen, you know, I think they're facing a lot of the same pressures Uh, that that other companies are that so I haven't seen like this huge Well, and I think in particular with the Some of my perception with the plant-based products is that people were starting to be really excited to try them in a restaurant And to like have them prepared for you buy from one else first and to say like, okay That was good. Like I could try to make that at home and now That that distinction or like that opportunity is obviously Gone and so you're not going to be brave enough to try the The other thing and that's maybe part of it with cooking generally, too Is that right now we're all cooking for ourselves and we're much more Like we're gearing toward the chicken tenders and the things that are much more simple than Perhaps branching out to venison I think chris will know more about this than than I do but I believe that one of the reasons we now have One of the reasons that these chicken processing plants have become so important Is it the way americans mean chicken has changed and that Not only do we eat way more chicken than we used to but we're way more likely to eat chicken that has been pre-cut In a factory into smaller pieces Whereas once on a time used to be you know a fry or a broiler in the oven and that both Creates the sort of bottleneck at the processing facilities But it also reminds you that at the end of the day It's a matter of how you eat and the ways you know how to cook food and if you don't Feel comfortable cooking the whole bird like you do You know putting it Go and chicken breast in a frying pan Then you're going to have trouble with With a supply chain that has less processing Yeah Yeah So we're getting uh close to wrapping up, but I just wanted to ask kind of uh in particular what your Predictions are for what happens next. Do you think that this is a moment that will be taken advantage of to change how we Make and consume meat in this country? What's your level of hopefulness? I think we're in a real pickle right now. This is not good I think that the problems of our industry are becoming Starkly apparent to the whole and this is this is the situation for 40 years to create In terms of such a fragile such a consolidated system so, uh The problems of this and the vulnerabilities of this are going to become very apparent, I believe in the june july timeframe as this goes on But it's not like we can just say okay Let's flip the switch and go back to a more decentralized robust competitive system. It will take time So yes, I think people are going to become aware of the meat system in a way that they haven't been maybe ever Because his vulnerabilities are coming to the fore But creating change around it is going to be a time consuming process and that's difficult to predict That's my thing Yeah, I think as chris said you can't just flip the switch right like even if donald trump gets upset about The possibility of a meat shortage even he doesn't have that much power to make People go to work when you know in some of these meat processing meat processing and meat producing states You're talking about a double digit percentage of the states. COVID-19 cases are tied to the meat packing plant so they really are these absolute epicenters and um It's hard to change that without changing something very fundamental about the way they work as chris says I I think the cost for optimism is both that the pandemic brings people's awareness to this issue, but also that at a local level restaurants and consumer regular consumers and supermarkets may be starting to figure out where they might be able to work around the existing supply chain Is there a local farm? Just outside the city that they might be able to partner with Whose traditional business delivering to a certain restaurant has been disrupted or something like that So if those links can be established as these farms search for new outlets, and maybe that's the basis For a new system going forward Yeah Yeah, I just want to ask one final thing chris you had said you think it's going to continue to get worse Through june and july just because you think the concentration in factories is just starting and is not going to be mitigated They don't have a plan Yeah, you know check out uh leah douglas is a reporter with the food environment reporting that we're talking in cases of covid You know and i'm with you know john tyson tried to pressure donald trump into You know putting down this defense act executive order to basically force these employees to go back on the job regardless of the covid risk and What I see what's what's happening now is that these people are just having to go back to work to keep the system running Which I need minimal protections for their safety and tragically that's going to mean people are going to continue to get sick And production is going to be continued to be hindered So I don't think that we're at the end of the problem in the need system by any means. I I think that I don't want this to be the case, but I think we could see an intensification of this problem In the june and july as we go forward Yeah, that makes sense and is also alarming Um, all right. Thank you everybody so much for joining us We have more social distancing socials on tuesdays and thursdays. So we hope that you will all come back. Thanks so much