 All right. Good morning everyone. My name is Paige Jarvie. I am the Global Marketing Assistant here at PMMI. On behalf of PMMI, I want to thank you for joining us today. Today's webinar is one of a series of webinars that we have planned this year or, you know, have continued to market with, you know, Brazil and Thailand and a couple other ones. So we're kind of keeping on the same ropes. In a few moments, we will hear from Ajay Hamini. I do apologize if I mispronounce that. He is the Founding Partner and Director at IndeBraws Consulting. And he'll be presenting the latest findings from PMMI's Market Research Report India Packaging Machinery Market Assessment. And, you know, before we continue to find out some of the other things that we have going on, I do encourage everybody to visit PMMI.org forward slash global. You'll be able to, one, get all of the information on the India Packaging Machinery Report that we are going to present on today as well as a lot of other things that we have going on. And if you are attending Pack X India before I hand it over to Ajay, who will actually be at Pack X India, I do want to let you know a few events and services that we have in order to prepare you to go over to India. Like I said, we do have the newly released Market Research Report on India at Pack X India on that Friday, the 23rd from 6 to 8. There will be a presentation from none other than Ajay kind of detailing a little bit more on what we're talking about today. And dinner will be served. So please come and listen to Ajay speak and get a nice free dinner. We also have the India Agent Directory. For those who don't know, the Directory is a generated list of qualified international sales agents who are based out of India. And it gives you the information to connect with these packaging and processing machinery agents, distributors, and representatives to kind of help you get into that target market. And we also have a few complimentary services at our booth. It's in hall one, booth number E34. We will have an on-site interpreter as well as market information. And you will get to see Jorge Skirdo from Global Marketing Department. So I will introduce Ajay and I will then let him take over from here. As I mentioned, he is the managing partner and director at Indebras. And he is going to help us tap into growing questions and opportunities in India. Some of you may be thinking Ajay's last name kind of looks a little familiar. You're not crazy, I promise. We had a non. His brother, he did the Brazil webinar back in June and also was presented at FISPOL for us. So we have a longstanding relationship with them. And we do appreciate all the good information that they give us. Ajay and Indebras specialize in global sourcing and identifying and developing new business opportunities in retail and consumer product sectors of press emerging markets. Ajay has extensive experience in analyzing packaging machinery and capital goods sectors in India and has conducted several reports for PMMI over the past several years. So again, he will be sharing the findings on the India Packaging Machinery Market Assessment. And that is available to download on PMMI.org. Quickly some housekeeping tips. Everybody is muted. They entered in the webinar on mute. And if you do have any questions, please go ahead and type them in the chat box located on your lower left. And Ajay and I will get to them as soon as the presentation is over. And that way we can make sure we don't miss anybody's questions. Again, this webinar is being recorded and will be posted online after we conclude and everybody will be able to rewatch it in case you missed anything. So without further ado, I will present over to you Ajay. Great. Thank you so much. Good morning to everyone. And thank you for joining in. I would like to start off by thanking both Jorge and Paige along with the rest of the PMMI team. Firstly for their kind introduction and then along with that the ongoing confidence and efforts to promote global packaging studies. That basically these studies that seek to help companies such as yours to not only understand the opportunities and challenges of each market but also to understand the cultural nuances of doing business in them and what sales and distribution approaches are needed to be mastered in order to conduct business. I thank Paige for the kind introduction. I'll just give you a quick brief about myself. I've been collaborating with PMMI since 2002 in both Brazil and more recently now in India. My experience among others includes advising several FMCG companies regarding marketing and sales expansion strategies. The distribution structures that are needed for each market from imports all the way to the final sales of products and most importantly in this case capital procurement opportunities. You see when writing the reports we always find that when preparing them it is very helpful to take a client's view into account and that is what we try to do in this report in a very pragmatic way as possible. So just skipping to the next slide. Let me give you a quick overview on India to set the stage. Basically to those who have not been to this market I highly encourage one visit at least. Aside from the unique cultural experience that should last a lifetime it is currently living its golden economic and business era and is set to grow at 7.5% this year compared with global growth which you see in the news or through other reports that is anywhere averaging between 3 to 3.5%. And to top it off this market covers 17% of the world's population and is rapidly becoming one of the largest consumption markets in the world. If we just put that into perspective the population is currently four times bigger than the US and another perspective of the sheer magnitude of this number is that this country has approximately 250 million households averaging about five people per household and while two-thirds of that yes granted are still rural there has been a recent urbanization trend and there's a rise in nuclear families and along with the growth and mid-income segment that are driving demand for more packaged goods. So clearly this is an opportunity that just cannot be missed. Some more on India it's on track to become the world's largest middle-class consumer market by 2030 and while most of the population falls within the deprived segment earning less than $2,700 per year which is that lower section of the pyramid there are several government social inclusion programs that are currently underway there are aims that maybe not eradicating because that will be too tough but at least minimizing the poverty along with tax release to rural segments that will drive a better level of sustainable living across all households. So there's a lot of work being done over there additional socio-demographic trends such as increased participation of women and young adults in the workforce are also bringing behavioral changes in consumption patterns and what are these consumption patterns some patterns such as a greater search for convenience change and variety reusability portability and single serve packs along with the ready-to-eat and ready-to-cook options. Now at the same time and for those who have been to this market will find it fascinating and those who haven't there is the rule and low income segments that will drive tremendous growth of volume in packaged goods despite not having a very low income base particularly for those low price products in food and personal care sectors I don't know if anyone has come across these one rupee sachets basically they range from anywhere from condiments to shampoo where it's a daily use or a one-time use and if you look at one rupee that's equivalent to two cents of the dollar so you really have a mass market volume that can be explored as well even if you target the lower end segments. Some quick basic macroeconomic indicators that I usually find are always good measures for investor industrial and consumer confidence. India has now structured its public finances and its foreign reserves are what I'd say at the highest levels that they've ever been with GDP growth and inflation showing great signs of long-term stability and all these coupled with an impressive FDI growth which we recorded at 48 percent last year has made this one of the most favored investment destinations in the globe today. So these are all prime reasons to really consider entering this market if you haven't done so. Meanwhile if we look at reduced interest rates basically that means less savings and greater disposable income for consumer packaged goods and it also means if you look at it on the on the client side a reduction in borrowing costs that allows your clients to increase their capital investments including for purchases of new machinery. At the same time we must always be wary about the controlled yet gradual depreciation of the incurrency against the US dollar since it reduces the amounts of funds available that local companies have available for US dollar purchases and encourages local purchases basically makes US imports more expensive but if you consider the the sheer demand in the market for products and for machinery this should not impact it as much and in summary what I'd just like to say is that the economic conditions are prime they look great and the government is really on a fast track to liberalized investment policies reduce frictional costs which in other words deep bureaucratize India and boost industrial development and domestic consumption moving on to packaging industry today it is one of the fastest growing sectors in India where we're showing a 15 percent 15 compounded annual growth rate over the past 12 years to reach 32 billion dollars in 2015 now what's even more impressive is that with all the efforts that are going on in the market the segment is expected to grow at an even faster pace over the next five years and we're we're looking at a 73 billion dollar market by 2020 driven by a domestic consumption and b retail sales today there are currently over 22,000 registered firms in the Indian packaging sector alone and this includes everything from raw material to machinery to ancillary much material manufacturers out of these I would say that around 15 percent are considered large companies and yet 50 percent remain in the unorganized sector within the 22,000 we've found that approximately 700 companies fall in the packaging machinery manufacturers and out of these 85 percent are what you would categorize as micro small and medium enterprises so what does this mean is that when we do talk about consolidation and that's happening at a fast rate this market is primed for mergers acquisitions and partnerships and this you should take to your corporate level discussions to see that how is my entry into India going to be is it going to be via acquisition via partnerships and the the market is there for the taking but it requires a lot a lot of homework to be done and that we can go on and talk about further over the next few slides what we'll do is we'll review some market forces that support this packaging growth led by the booming internal consumption which I mentioned earlier the organized retail expansion and other segment specific such as food safety compliance acts and a shift towards consumption convenience see as I mentioned earlier the boom in internal consumption is bringing about much change in the packaging segment now out of the entire FDE FDI that was recorded during the past 15 years 8.2 percent belong to the FMCG sector and out of the sectors that we're covering in this report which is the food beverage personal care and pharmaceuticals we're talking about a size that is just shy of combined a hundred billion dollar market but what is more interesting other than the sheer size and is that India's become a global powerhouse in individual segments within each sector for instance I'm not sure if many of you are aware but India is the second largest food market today behind China it is the second largest producer of fruits vegetables livestock fish behind Japan and today is the largest milk producer and it's even the fourth largest pharmaceutical producer in the world so we're really talking about top five rankings across very important sectors of trade you know and these numbers keep getting updated every day and something or another always keeps coming up like just last week I read somewhere that India has overtaken Brazil and Australia as the largest meat producer in the world if you combine buffalo meat with the beef so it's really astounding that a company that is a country that is extremely religious and for that nature has a certain what do you call the constraints on purchases that a market like this can even turn to be one of the largest beef buffalo meat exporters it's just astounding we move to the next slide another equally important driver for the packaging market is the growth in this retail market we're expecting a one trillion market by 2025 we're traditional retail still occupying around 90 of the market online sales are also on a sharp rise with an expected 320 million online shoppers generating close to 120 billion dollars in sales by 2020 now we look at these numbers and I've said quite a quite some some quite large numbers over the last five ten minutes and what does this all mean to us well aside from the fantastic size and scope of the market you know the growing share of organized retail will require packs that promote longer product shelf life and that are sturdier to withstand for nationwide dispatches and also the intensified competition in modern trade will also require brands to reinvent their packaging material and design resulting in search for innovation when we talk about food compliance in a recent survey we saw that there are over 50 million food producers in India today but only 10 of those are licensed under food safety and standard regulation authorities many which have their home based cottage industries so just to just with the efforts that the governments are making to transform all these cottage industries into formal producers of food the sheer demand for packaging is is is off the charts really off the charts especially for food and here what we have is some packaging trends that came up during our market survey earlier this year on the food side I'll give specific attention towards the packaging norms which I just mentioned earlier which are generating greater enforcement of the food safety regulations through multiple government authorities requiring hygienic and appropriately labeled packs along with flexible packaging and ready to cook and ready to eat both of which are growing at 16 percent on the beverage side special attention to recycling pre-mix pre-mix juices and teas and carton packs whereas on the personal care a greater attention is being given to the premiumization of products so that packs can actually stand out at point of sale given the intense competition in the market and and some shift towards metal as a preferred packaging material meanwhile pharmaceutical sector we're seeing some greater move from glass to rigid plastics and clean label messaging and barcodes for over-the-counter products particularly with the growth of the chain drug stores that you see today in India so when we look at government data available regarding imports it is clear that the highest share of imports and here close to 50 percent occurs in the 84-22-3000 code which is the HS code that covers filling closing sealing capscaling or labeling and aerating beverages so we do have quite a skew towards those items but at the same time and also not too different from other developing markets we see Germany and Italy remain the market leaders in terms of machinery imports into India however recent growths have been recorded by the US by China and Sweden in 2016 and I'd say that the top five markets today the top five countries today corresponds to 75 percent of total imports into India and meanwhile India has an export market of its own it does exports over 170 million dollars of machinery last year but mainly to Asia Africa and Middle Eastern markets now this is an important slide to understand so I'm going to spend a little more time on it here basically what we have is a simplified working example of how import duties work in India using a basic example of a hundred thousand dollar cost insurance and freight at a rate of 67 rupees to the US dollar now if we look at the chart we can immediately see that customs duty accounts for 26.5 percent across all the three main HS codes but if we segmented further we see that there are five elements of customs duty three of them are pretty simple to understand which are the basic the and the educational and the secondary and higher educational duties those are levied irrespective of what the product is but the other two labeled CVD which are the countervailing duty and additional duty I wanted to touch base a bit more on that basically these additional duties are levied on imports to level the playing field with domestic companies that have to pay local excise duties and local excise duties are nothing more than inland tax on goods produced for sale or sold within the country so basically you're having to pay this extra 16.5 percent but what you should be made aware of is that similar to excise duties these CVD duties can also be set off by your clients over a period of time here is where understanding the local impact of a purchase from your client's point of view becomes very very very relevant while the overall cost of the machinery is higher when measured in initial cash outlay of how much the client is actually going to have to fork out right in the beginning at the time of purchase clients need to be made aware that they can claim the equivalent of both these countervailing duties and additional duties reaching up to 16.5 percent in their regular operations simply by offsetting these against excise duty payable so for instance your CVD you can offset over a period of two years and the additional CVD you can set off a hundred percent in the first year now this set off is possible until the time the full amount that was paid in CVD duty is absorbed and that is by not paying the extra by not paying excise duties for that period so while the client has to pay 26.5 percent at the time of import the client can actually avail the full 16.5 percent back in foregoing excise duty payments on local sales that's very important to understand this because many times when you go out for a sale or your marketing team or your local team immediately the first thing that happens is they'll look at the cost and usually it's higher than what they get in India but they'll also look at the duty and they'll immediately be set back and say oh my god 26.5 percent there's no way I can pay that but what you need to make them understand is that they can recover part of that in their operations there are also some other schemes that we can talk about later on that are very well explained in the report but in particular there's an export promotional capital goods zero duty scheme that really allows for zero custom duties provided the manufacturing company commits to exporting six times what he paid in the duties over a period of six years so this is why the KYC is so important in this market so unless you don't know what your what your client's business is it becomes very hard to have this type of discussion with them and now evidently I'm sure some of you may have heard that these structures will change with the introduction of the GST which is a goods and services tax that is currently under debate in parliament basically it's been approved a constitution amendment bill was passed in August just last month in the upper house representing all the states of the Indian Federation and the intent is to substitute India's multi-layered indirect tax consumption structure with basically a simpler tax regime that allows for uniform pricing nationwide and eventually cheaper products now both of these structures and rates have yet to be defined but what do what we will start seeing is that once this comes into effect the entire duty structure may change so this is something that we will be monitoring closely and you should request your local teams or at least next time for those who are coming to India we can always have a have a discussion and to see where where we have progressed with this but we believe that by next fiscal year GST should be in place in India what now I'll jump into the actual study when we we conducted 20 interviews with the FNCG companies five in the food sector five in beverage five in personal care and five in pharmaceutical along with three co-packing and conversion companies the details of each interviews are very clearly written up in the report but here I just wanted to touch base on some highlights what we saw is across all sectors there was an overall preference towards Indian origin suppliers with the greater skew in food and pharmaceutical and more evened out between foreign and domestic suppliers in the beverage and personal care obviously with the exception of multinational companies that depend on their global supplier lists and here is one of the recommendations in the report is really if you are selling to one of these multinational clients then you should check to see if your company is already listed in their global supplier list which would speed up the sale process by eons on the on the average purchasing potential we asked each of these companies what's your average purchasing potential on a scale of one to five where low one is low and five is high we we arrived at a 3.2 average where food had the lowest propensity to purchase but not because there was no interest but there was an underutilized installed base among the five companies that we interviewed so here what we would classify as the sector as an opportunistic expansion so if I do see the the need to enter a new food product line then my purchases will happen and they will be big on the beverages side we had a 3.2 rank where there was a need for systematic upgrades or expansions that happen on regular intervals so here we could classify the purchasing preference towards innovation and efficiency so show me a machine that can innovate show me a machine that can bring greater efficiency to my operations and I'm willing to I'm willing to talk on the personal care side which that basically led the purchase potential with a 4.2 score and here again we focus on innovation and attractive pack designs for impulse purchases so here the preference was towards automation and integration show me a machine that can help me pack in multiple different sizes and line extensions and I will I'll be ready to talk and pharmaceuticals stood at the at three at the three mark with the greater preference towards customization and maintenance and we we look at the sector as an ongoing growth sector given that the aging population is growing and there's a growth in the OTC market as well when we ask these companies what what is the process of procurement who makes the decisions we found out that usually the product development teams liais closely with the marketing departments to determine the new product development department then marketing takes a back seat and the purchasing policies are taken over by both the technical and commercial teams and similar to most developing markets all the interviews have taken into account traditional aspects in their supplier selection processes such as quality financial considerations and obviously the after-sales service level agreements now here this chart basically shows some of the criterias that were raised by interviewees when considering new suppliers or packaging machinery I'll give you a minute to take a look at it I'm not going to read out each point but what one can clearly see are commonalities among all sectors particularly in reference to words such as consistency efficiency material wastage customization and adaptability and I will explain to you a bit more about the reasons behind these words in the following slide then again all these all these elements are very well detailed in the report so let me just skip to the next slide now the following slide this slide is I'm just going to talk about some key takeaways from the company interviews firstly there's a preference towards suppliers that are able to provide production efficiency performance consistency and minimum material wastage now here is where we encourage our PMMI members to use everything in your arsenal from case studies to input output calculations and even live demonstrations that speak to the packaging machines cost-saving attributes these will always very heavily during the machine selection process next stage is most of the companies require trials to be conducted prior to purchase I cannot stress how important this is while this favors local companies it is also a call to action for many of you and your your teams to maintain local operating units on ground in India now in case you do not have a local team or partner I know that PMMI regularly updates a comprehensive list of prospective agents and potential distributors and I believe that's what Paige was referring to in the start of the in the start of this call and these may assist members in India to showcase and sell their packaging machinery I encourage members to review this list and get in touch with some of the listed contacts at your own discretion and convenience thirdly this is a technical and financial sale if there ever was one basically here we have a situation where you need to capacitate your local sales team or whoever is interacting with the clients to have the technical financial and cultural skills to complement the sales and marketing sales pitch they don't want just a marketing spiel you need to back it up because the competition is fierce in this market and finally uh limited budgets and bank finance uh have uh have have uh given words such as integration flexibility customization and that adaptability a lot of value because basically what you're having is there's a large one-time cash outlay for machinery purchase and many people are many of these clients are saying wait a minute before I go and make this large investment am I comfortable with this new product development that I'm that I'm putting out in the market given that there is a lot of unpredictability and that the market is extremely extremely competitive you know I've moved from Brazil to India just three years ago and I and I've worked in Africa as well and I and I have to say I've never seen such a highly competitive market as I have since I've reached India so what what I'm trying to say here and pass on a bit of my experience uh short-lived experience is that uh machines that we offer this market should champion the words such as integration and multitasking and one size fits all because people who are going to make those investments are going to have to justify to their boards on how do I maximize my ROI and can I extend the use of this machine to multiple product lines and line extensions should I be required to do so maybe my I start with a with a product a but market realities and competition has made me shift that product into a product B or a product C I should be able to do so with the same machine that I bought and finally some considerations if I could leave you with some few basic ground realities I would say that the perceived value of foreign made over domestic is really dwindling local suppliers are building on their own technical strength to bridge this gap and performance driven ROI coupled with high processing volume speeds ranges integration automation will remain the key differentiators for them to choose us machines over any other now basically it is about performance driven ROI for instance for instance let's say you're promoting automation then consider what the prevailing labor labor costs are in the market and how will this investment impact your client's operations before offering the machine this is where really again knowing who your client is is going to make all the impact and secondly cost sensitivity remains at an all-time high there's a boom period but that's also matched with the competitive intensity making this a long-term play market now they're also limited availability of government schemes and bank loans that require many of these clients to dig into their personal their P&L accruals to build up their capexic requirement so it's not so easy to go out and just get a bank loan many of these companies are actually whenever they are going to purchase they're going to do it from their hard-earned operational inflows so here what what another opportunity that arises is to provide supplier credit against bank guarantees here it basically is a fairly simple process that allows suppliers to receive installments via the U.S. based banks who in turn receive local guarantees from client's bank to whom the client has pledged some assets so basically if I'm a client I'm going to pledge my assets to my local bank my local bank is going to correspond with your bank and your bank is going to give that give that credit now this process basically allows clients to break down their machinery payments into installments without having to resort to local bank interest rates it also allows clients to hedge their dollar-based investments with forward covers of up to one year and that basically safeguards them against currency depreciation so these are some areas where you can really look into on how do I help making this sale into a more practical sale to my clients and finally one thing that we've seen that really helps is we have a tendency to to do a fully loaded proposal but what more and more Indian companies are asking for is for a decoupling of the quote by itemizing components between core and optional and this can allow clients to better manage their budgets so with that finally I'm just adding here a list of the upcoming trade fairs that many of you may benefit from while in India I do really do look forward to meeting many of you as many as I can with your local team representatives next week here in India the PAC X Fair and for all those that are considering other trade fairs please do drop in a note so either Jorge Paige or myself saying that you plan to visit and which dates and it'll be a pleasure to help you out further so I think that that concludes my remarks for today Paige I'm back to you awesome thank you so much Jay that was a very knowledgeable presentation we'll now open up the floor for the audience to ask any questions again use the chat box on the lower left of your screen to type any questions you may have and while we wait for questions to come in I would like to remind members if you are attending PAC X India that again a Jay will be there presenting a little more in detail on what he touched on this morning and the excuse me the dinner is on Friday the 23rd you'll hear again firsthand forecasting on the packaging and process processing excuse me machinery market and again don't forget to stop by the pavilion where you can take advantage of some of the other services again we do have a onsite interpreter as well as some market information hall 1 booth E 34 and again you are able to chat with Jorge he will be at PAC X so let's see we have a question here a Jay for a buyer in India what would be the net duties and taxes paid after recovering some of the taxes and fees okay thank you basically your your first cash outlay is 26.5 but then you will recover 16.5 over a period of two years and by recovering I mean you're not getting you're just getting credit on the excise duties that you will have to pay as a as a as conducting your regular business in India so rather than whenever I make a sale once I've processed my goods and I've got a final product I will not have to pay the excise duty I'll get a credit on the amount I paid on my duty so here when you talk about net you're paying 7.5 you're paying two you're paying one two you're paying 10.5 but you're paying 26.5 you're recovering 16.5 that's an easier way to place it okay thank you I did get a question also asked me if they can get a soft copy of the webinar yes you are able to again the webinar and the slideshow will be available online at PMMI.org I will follow up this webinar with an email detailing all of that information so everybody has it we do have a couple more questions we have question asking what should be the first city or region to visit when entering the Indian market oh that's that's that's a that's a tough one because basically I recall when I was doing a study in Brazil we were trying to plot every city that had more than one million inhabitants and I think I reached to 15 or 13 I tried to do the same thing with India and I just gave up after I crossed 50 so you know the demand is everywhere each each state you're looking at 29 states and seven union territories each state is is is a world of its own with its own language its own culture we've got each state has promotional the state is very strong in promoting industry growth so whether it be the state of Marastra or the state of Gujarat or the state of Tamil Nadu each one is having their own promotional promotional efforts so it becomes very hard to pinpoint which is the right one what I would suggest is wherever the clients are that would be the best bet because if you look at even logistics complexity what we're seeing is that many of the global clients or even the strong domestic clients ITC, Britannia, Parley to name a few on the food side they are opening hubs all across India so they're not that just benefit from avoiding paying freight so I'd much rather invest in the market because I know that the the the the state itself will be will cover all my all my all my demands okay and we do have a few more questions here what is the market share of vacuum-based packaging machinery we haven't gotten into that level of detail so I wouldn't have that information we can definitely look into it but right now we don't have a segmented beyond beyond the HS codes and that again is because of government data to go a step further would be a bit very I'm not clear we'd get the right level of information because we'd have to do a different type of study and interview each company as it has as its own because there are no government data that supports further details beyond HS codes okay thank you I'm not sure that this next question is a question it says how we analyze potential of packaging machinery and primary secondary and end-of-line packaging uh if correct me or I'm wrong I'm not sure how to pronounce last name Marathy um if you could clarify the question or Ajay if you understand the question I think I did I think I did I think that we've we've we've got a huge potential all across the board now what where where where it starts getting interesting is where is that opportunity you know where do you where right after core manufacturing comes primary packaging and primary packaging is I would say the most important part today in in the market and why do I say that because secondary packaging and end-of-line automation what we've witnessed uh in many of the service that we've done and many of the factories that I've visited you've got a huge huge labor availability in all these states and and just to put things into perspective uh where you're paying around 250 dollars a month to a worker uh or even 150 to 180 dollars a month to a contract laborer then your ROI for your uh if someone's going to do a make an investment on end-of-line or even on secondary packaging the ROI has to really justify it and and and and Indian people uh are very good with numbers they're number centric and they will get to the bottom of the the the rupees and the sense of the rupees to see is this something that I should carry on working on with my current labor staff or is labor getting too complicated are there too many laws in the pipeline that are going to come soon that will raise the minimum wage up to 25 percent that will justify the shift towards uh towards uh uh automation and towards packaging machinery so what I would say is that uh your for your form fill seal uh primary and then if you start doing carton carton bagging and boxing and all that that is still uh hugely dominated by the labor labor class uh next question is asking what do you think would be the market for end-of-line packaging uh again uh I it would it would have to be an estimate uh basically we're looking at uh at a still still a fraction of what it could be you know uh labor labor is still cheap in this market so I would I would I would have to do some more homework on that uh our ROI again is key in this market so we don't have uh it would be wrong of me to attribute a percentage towards uh towards what is primary what is secondary versus what's end-of-line at this juncture okay thank you and final question is can we see industry 4.0 concepts in India packaging in the India packaging machinery or excuse me packaging industry uh by that you mean the the getting into robotics and cyber physical systems um is that like the smart smart factory issues right uh yeah I yeah I believe I believe I believe that's that's what 4.0 was uh I I I do recall I'm sure I'm sure some companies I'm sure some companies already uh do this um I haven't I haven't witnessed it I know that in the PACTX there are there will be some stands with uh with the robotic automation procedures maybe more on the pharmaceutical for hygienic purposes uh but and maybe in beverages as well but uh but food and food and uh and personal care I'm still seeing a lot of uh hand labor as I'd say that we're still on uh I still I still we're still on second industry and not 4.0 2.0 instead of 4.0 right now uh computer and automation along with robotics will come into play but we're we're we're still far away from that being um that being widely widely used well again Ajay I do want to thank you uh and on behalf of PMMI to everyone uh thank you for participating um as a final note again you will receive an email with links to the events and services that I spoke about um as well as a link for an evaluation on today's webinar um if you would be so kind as to fill that out as soon as possible letting us know what we can do what we can do uh to improve you know how we present ourselves or um you know what we can touch on more or things like that um basically to improve the webinar uh and you will again be able to view the webinar online I hope to give it up by this afternoon uh if not this afternoon it'll be up first thing tomorrow morning um but it'll be uh for viewing prior to PAC-X India so again thank you everybody and have a great rest of the day