 Okay, you were live. All right, thanks, David. Hello, everybody, and I'd like to welcome all of you to our virtual Hyperledger Meetup. We have a very exciting topic today and two awesome speakers who I'll be bringing up momentarily. Like we do most of our virtual Meetups, we promote this across all the major metros. So we have folks joining from all the continents, literally, so good morning, good afternoon, good evening to wherever you are. One of our speakers is joining us from Dubai and the other from London. Great topic today, which is unleashing the potential of tokenized assets via public private architecture. Our first speaker, Scott Thiel. He is the founder and CEO of TOCO. Tremendous accomplishments to his credit in the industry, a visionary leader. He was law partner at DLA Piper. Many of you may know DLA Piper is one of the largest law firms in the world. Scott headed Asia Region for their tech and fintech vertical, where he was advising clients, large enterprises on specifically in the area of tokenization and the applications in the capital markets arena. He's won many awards as an executive, one of them being the Blockchain and Digital Assets Practice Group. And he also sits on various bodies within the blockchain space, such as the Hedera Hashgraph governing council, which is a next generation public DLT infrastructure. He also is a non-executive director of the Blockchain Think Lab, Hedera Hashgraph and the H-Bar Foundation. And like I mentioned, he's joining us from Dubai. It's fairly late in the evening there, so we greatly appreciate that. Along with Scott, we have Antoine Harrell, who's joining us from London. Antoine heads strategy and product for a firm called Luder Systems. They do automation. They help large enterprises in their automation and transformation journey. Prior to Luder, Antoine worked at Accenture in management consulting and strategy. He has degrees from University of Oxford, the Kellogg Business School, speaks three languages actually, French, which is the native language, English, obviously, and Spanish, a bit of Spanish too. So it's gonna be a great conversation. Without further ado, I'll turn it over to Scott, who'll be doing the bulk of the presentation. And then I think he and Antoine will tag team. We'll give, we have about 45, 15 minutes for them to do their presentation. And we leave about five to 10 minutes for Q&A. So very relevant topic. I was really looking forward to this. So without further ado, I'll turn it over to Scott, then Antoine. Thanks, thanks, Tanvir. And good afternoon, evening, good morning, everyone. Wherever you are in the world, great to be here talking to the Hyperledger Foundation and the ecosystem. We have a presentation, which I think, Antoine, you're gonna be putting up on screen. You thought about how to do this. And what we're gonna do is actually, this is actually our main Toco deck, if you like. So when people tell us, ask us, what is Toco? What can you do for us? This is it. And that made it a little bit odd in terms of why are we using our, essentially our marketing deck to explain or to give you an insight into what we're doing. But the reason is, as you'll see when we go through it, some of the things that our clients need and the reason we architected Toco the way we have with the public private architecture is actually the unique selling point as to how and why we are successfully able to work with clients in the complex tokenized asset arena. So I just wanted to give that context, that it is almost the perspective of when we're talking to clients, why Toco? And as you'll see, why Toco includes, yep, happy to give access to the deck, thanks to them. And happy to take questions as we go through as well. I'll try and pick them up, but don't mind this being interactive and Antoine and I will be kind of tag teaming. We do these things regularly, so we'll probably just fairly, fairly fluid with this. So I just wanted to give that perspective in terms of how we're going to present this and going back to my original idea, maybe Antoine can go to the next, or the first substantive slide. So what is Toco and how do we put it together? So I'm sitting in a law firm dreaming about getting out of being a lawyer, which a lot of lawyers do, they don't necessarily admit it, but there are opportunities I think to do more. And my background is computer science turned lawyer, turned fintech and kind of blockchain interest. And I was interested in what we can do. I was thinking about the future of law, the future of the industry, the role of the lawyer going forward. And really the inspiration, if you like, was essentially the digitization of the law. And what do we mean by that? So contracts, I was ultimately a contracts lawyer, contract set out rights, rights and obligations of parties. Those rights typically are represented in pieces of paper that have got wedding signatures and sometimes wax seals and all these kinds of things. And to me it was like, well, hang on, aren't we going to see the digitization, the digital evolution, digital transformation of the legal industry is going to involve taking these rights and putting them into a digital format. Then blockchain came along and it was like, imagine if you could put these rights into a token that was deployed on a blockchain that could then allow you to do things with these rights. And that's not really the inspiration for what we were, where TOCO came from. And as this slide talks to, we were then thinking, well, these are going to be complex, they'll represent any real world assets or interests or economic rights in real world assets, whether that's real estate or funds or art or whatever it might be, frankly, it doesn't actually matter. If I could write it into a contract, now I can write it into a smart contract and put it in a token. But we then thought about, well, legal and regulatory compliance, how do we actually solve for all of the issues with what are going to be regulated complex assets in this new technology tokenized world? And then how are we going to get these things to market? Those are the three buckets. So the recording just stopped. I'm not sure if that's a problem. We need to restart. I'll just keep going unless anyone tells me not to. Let's pause for a second. Just pause for a second, we'll figure that out. I'll message David. I'm sorry about that. No problem. Hey, Scott, yeah, we'll continue. It's been live streamed. So this recording is more like a backup. So we're good to go. Sorry about this hiccup. No problem at all. Okay, so just working through these three circles in a little more detail and I get to enter on to pick up the middle one. But legal and regulatory compliance. So obviously sitting in a global law firm had the advantage of experts around the world who could help with, you know, these things are going to be regulated assets in different markets. Every market has a different definition of a security and commodity. They have different rules around who can buy them, who can sell them, et cetera. And so as we started to think about, well, we can tokenize rights, we can fractionalize rights and we can sell rights, but they're going to need to fly around the world and very easily cross borders as crypto assets can do. But regulators are now going to have to deal with this and everybody has a different set of rules. And so it was really important for us to think about the architecture of the tokens and what features and functions in here that were going to support the compliance requirements of that really complex, multi-jurisdictional environment. And so we designed Toko from the ground up with this in mind and we'll come back in a bit more detail in a later slide around there, particularly the data architecture and how we leverage the combination of public chain deployed tokens, but then the hyperledger private chain environment that sits in Toko. Do you want to just take that middle circle and join us? Yeah, of course. I think there's a few slides that deep dive into this later down, but just I think the key thing here is that it's not so tokenization is one aspect of what we had to build, but then we've built a platform that's basically orchestrating both the tokenization, which is the first step, but all of the events that happen across the lifecycle of a particular token and the underlying assets. And that event includes multiple different roles, multiple different users with different requirements and what we try to do with the private, sort of hybrid public architectures, keep track of all of those events in one single place. And I'll touch a bit more on that when we get to the architecture side. And then really moving to the third leg, which is what we've most recently solved the problem for is how do you actually go about distributing these assets? Because once you've got a bundle of rights and let's presume there are economic interests coming from these, so people can pay money to get them and they can hopefully get more money out of buying these rights, because they're fractionalized, unlike NFTs and the NFT craze really took off because they were unregulated, because it was one asset, one digital asset, one owner, it didn't fall within any definition of security, although I see the SEC is now trying to determine that that may not be the case in the US, most recently with suggestions and NFTs may in fact be securities, but broadly speaking, the assumption always was that they wouldn't be, but as soon as you go into fractional rights, you're now into serious financial services regularly oversized and the need for licenses. And traditional financial services regulation is in many respects wholly inappropriate for tokenized instruments. And the reason for that is that the technology now allows you to create things that don't sit very neatly in the traditional finance buckets of commodity security, utility, payment token or whatever else. And the fact is that you can now use this technology and you can put features and functions into the token or the rights in the token that mean that they look like one thing today and they maybe look like something tomorrow and they might look like something else the next day. And that's really where one of that, some of the really big confusion, I think has arisen and also as a result of that, what's been happening is lots of people have been going, well, let's just call it a utility token and call it unregulated and see if we get away with that. And that's obviously led to a lot of friction and now regulatory enforcement that we're seeing around the world. What happened in Dubai last year is there was a new regulator that was born out of statutory creation, the virtual asset regulatory authority and a brand new purpose built virtual assets framework. We were lucky enough to be part of the team that developed that framework. So we revised this to bar in the preparation of it and Monday of this week. So only two days ago, we've actually announced that Toko's received the first full market licenses, both as a broker dealer and an exchange service provider. That full market license is really noteworthy because the democratization of finance, which is one of the promises of blockchain, which is well, it'll be great everyone, more people can participate, more fractionalization, lower bite size, more participants, but a lot of regulations around the world say, well, you can participate as long as you're rich enough to be deemed to be an accredited investor or an institutional investor, but certainly not for everybody. What VARA has done is they've recognized, well, the promise of this technology and the ambition around democratization means that retail investors should be allowed to play as well. And so the license we've now got allows us to create tokenized security interests and to sell them to retail investors. And that really is a game changer in terms of that. So they're the three kinds of prongs, if you like, of what Toko is and why it's quite different to other frameworks. Next slide. It is the most sophisticated token engine in the world. It's probably not yet, many people aren't yet ready for the level of sophistication we've created. And the reason for this is, to me, if we're gonna solve the problem of tokenization, it's critical that we actually solve the issues that exist in private markets today, which is information asymmetry, lack of transparency, lack of accessibility. How do you know what instruments are available, what products are available? The private markets are very much, who knows who, who's in contact with who sort of private networks of people, there's very little transparency. And yet amazingly, the private markets are six, seven times bigger than the public markets in terms of volume. So you have this huge capital market that's actually not public. And so what we wanted to do was put the deal in the token. So put all the information in the token that allows investors, both the primary issuance and secondary market, to truly understand and be able to see, without spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on lawyers creating data rooms and all of that. And this is where the lack of liquidity often comes because the barrier to entry into a product starts with it's gonna cost a lot of money to get data rooms put together to do due diligence. But if you create the data room in the token, which is what we've done, then all of that information is available. Again, we'll come back to how we've architected those data layers because just making complex financial instrument information available to the world at large is something that isn't going to happen. Obviously we've got, I won't go through all of these bullet points. These are essentially some of the key aspects I've already touched on the licensing. We do have a global distribution network. So we're working with partners in multiple markets and that's important because again, while we're regulated in Dubai to do distribution and exchange in order to distribute an asset in a different market. For example, the US, you now need a regulated broker exchange partner in that market. So we have a network of partners that we've been developing over the last few years so that we can bring the promise of global distribution and access to global products in a compliant manner. I'm going to try and find anything on here. You wanted to pick up from a tech's perspective. Maybe the mouse chain. Yeah, I was going to say, so we will touch on that a bit more afterwards, but basically the way that we've architected so as well as trying to stay very protocol agnostic. So while our private ledger, all our private data is hosted on hyperledger fabric, we then have integrations into, you can see some of the symbols at the bottom left. With Adara, Polygon, Ethereum and Algorand. I'll touch on that a bit more, but basically what that gives us is a bit of flexibility and ability to offer different standards, different services depending on the particular use case that we have in front of us. And then obviously the only other point of revenue is this kind of combined legal and technology solution. People often say to me, what is a law firm doing building a token engine? And I actually would turn around and say, well, what is a technology company doing, trying to build a piece of technology that makes complex, highly regulated assets? You wouldn't ask a tech company to build you an old fashioned security, paper-based security. Why are you now asking a tech company to build you a digital security? It doesn't, actually the technology component of it is not straightforward, but it's actually not the main challenge. The main challenge is having you comply with global regulations. And so that's a really important feature of the Toco solution to get that sort of hybrid of law and tech. Let's jump to the next slide. So this was the democratization and access for liquid assets. So two things around this. Firstly, I mentioned the six or seven times more private market stuff that is available out there if you can only find it. So our ambition around that is how do we make that accessible, transparent, visible and capable of being bought and sold by more investors. But that actually only deals with that which is already being dealt with at all. So while private markets are a lot larger than public markets, actually what's even larger again is investable grade assets that currently aren't serviced by financial services at all. And there are any number of assessments as to what those things might be and how big it might be. But we believe we're talking somewhere in the region of five to $600 trillion worth of investable assets in the world that it's frankly currently unservice by the traditional financial services markets. And so the ability to provide options for people to share those assets in much the same way as we've seen technology allow share economy, whether it's Airbnb allowing people to rent out their house and become hoteliers and other different sharing platforms allow people to car share and parking spot share and all of these things. How do you actually, this technology allows people to take whatever assets they own and potentially share the investment. Now running through a couple of these real estate tokenization, we've recently done a US SEC regulated token for a residential housing project in the US that provides the owner occupier with a form of, it looks like a mortgage, it doesn't come from a bank. It actually allows on the investor side for people to fractionally participate as micro lenders. It turns people into mini banks and allows them to become micro lenders across multiple properties sharing in both fixed yield returns and also capital appreciation, which again is very unusual. Traditionally, mortgages are, you know, you get your yield but you don't get a sharing in capital appreciation. And so that's a project where we've, you know, it's basically a game changer. It's completely different type of way of financing, buying a home and living in a home and for people on the other side to invest in homes in a way that they can't today unless they are able to have enough money to buy a whole home and become a landlord, for example. Equity tokenization, I'll mention this one briefly including because on Monday of this week along with our license, we announced with VirtuaZone, which is the largest corporate services company in the Middle East. We're going to launch a tokenized equity crowd funding platform with VirtuaZone initially focused on some of their portfolio companies of which they know they have 6,000 portfolio companies they support and they're called business and they're forever being asked by those companies, can you help us do fundraising? We know they're investors who like our business but how do we go about doing it? So again, we're going to build a way of people buying tokenized equity in those companies and then provide a marketplace again for exchange or trading of those equities in a secondary market, which is again something that's very difficult secondary market liquidity for private equity is almost non-existent. So an example of what that's what we mean by democratization, more people participating in more exit options. I won't go through all of these other examples but we are working on ESG, green carbon credits, green financing projects, debt tokenization. We believe the world's first private debt token in Hong Kong about two years ago. We're working with funds clients including Aberdeen and the UK on tokenizing fund interests, commodities and obviously NFTs as well. So quite a broad range of assets and actually even this week we've had reach out from people sort of gemstones, minerals, deposits, various other things. So there really isn't necessarily a limit to what can be tokenized. It's really about ultimately going to come down to investor appetite and interest in these things. There's a question there I wanted to just jump. What led you to provide privacy and confidentiality on a separate private ledger? Okay. I'm going to come back to that when we get to the slide but I did just grab that question coming in because it is part of the core of why we chose it. So I'll forward and come back. I think it's slide seven. Next slide, please. Yeah. I mean, maybe just, I'll just add something on this one Scott. Maybe for my product development standpoint, I think what's quite interesting here as well and I think that's where Turco is pretty different and well-placed, any of those tokens to any of those assets that basically we spend a long time with our issuers and customers to specify what those assets are about. And you probably have two camps. You have the camps of the people that are trying to tokenize existing assets and see what their operations look like. So it's a bit of a transformation effort and trying to map the old world to the new world. And then you have the different sort of asset owners that are trying to create something entirely new. I think Scott, you touched on that with the home occupancy and home tokenization. And just from a technology standpoint, what that means is we have to be incredibly flexible and incredibly sort of agile in terms of how we go about product development and how we go about architecting what the products that we build because there's so much variety basically in what comes across the desk of Turco. But I think it's just an incredibly exciting space to basically build in. Here you go, Scott. Probably won't linger on this slide too much. Just to give a quick overview of the end-to-end tokenization process. So primary market issuance, distribution and how it compares to traditional markets. So the ability to tokenize any asset whereas we talked about as opposed to very limited assets that are currently catered for in traditional capital markets. Being able to lower the cost of assurance and or participation through fractionalization compared to what exists in either traditional whole assets. There's a lot of questions coming in on the key point of slide seven, which is could we all get there. Obviously 24-7 trading rather than when clearing banks might be open, for example. Clearing and settlement obviously far easier. And again, we can see the sorts of efficiencies and endless trading potential of things like crypto exchanges. And if you compare that to the occasional nine to four or whatever it might be in your market. So stock exchange with three-day settlements, et cetera. All of these kind of efficiencies and an ability to settle much faster. And then there are the downstream services, including digital asset custody and asset servicing around automation, the use of smart contracts. To be honest, smart contracts are not very smart yet. We have great ambitions to put much more functionality into smart contracts that do things like automatic calculation and distribution of dividends, for example, to streamline that process, which is very clunky and paper-based manual and filled with errors today. But I don't want to go on the slide too much. We'll go on to the next one. So this is probably a different way of slicing and dicing the end-to-end process. And the journey I went on, which continued to get more complicated as I went on it, is what does an asset owner actually need? Because it might start with lawyers telling you what the asset is at law. And it might start with lots of legal documentation describing the PPM, the offering memorandum, the disclosures, the shareholders agreements, whatever the deal might be, there's a lot of legal stuff. Then you have to transliterate that into a tokenized form. And this is really going to some of these questions that are coming in around what do we mean by confidentiality and what information is going in there. So we can do different data fields in the tokens that are relevant to particular asset classes. We can then mint those tokens, distribute them, and then do downstream servicing of those. But let's move forward to the next slide, Antoine, because I can see more and more questions coming in. Do you want to start with this slide in terms of this? We probably should have started with the, I know you told me this this afternoon, let's start with it, because it's what they wanted. And Scott, I just wanted to mention, if you find the questions very relevant and you'll put a ticket now, I think it's up to you. Go ahead and answer this. I'm on a phone. Antoine, you start on this slide. I'm going to go through the questions. Okay, no problem. Okay, so this is a high-level overview of how Toco is architected, but I'll start with this. I think the main thing to understand is that Toco operates in a highly regulated financial environment, right? So obviously as part of that privacy security is extremely critical, but we also want to give the same level of sort of auditability and transparency of the transactions and the operations of Toco that you get with a public network. And we want to get that with our private ledger as well. So Hyperledger Fabric was just an obvious choice for us to start with. So you can think of Toco as sort of a three layer cake. At the top, we have the engagement platforms. So that takes the form of a portal that asset owners can go through to create, configure those deals, those assets, those rights into the tokens. We'll have a brokerage platform where investors will come in, but we also have third party applications that might use the Toco sort of backend engine as in order to power their own marketplace or their own processes. All of these talk through a single Toco API behind which sits the Toco, what we call the Toco token engine, but what that is is essentially a process execution platform. So all the processes of creating, drafting, updating an asset, getting all the maker checker approvals, getting all the checks and balances, doing the minting of the issuance of the assets, doing any sort of white listing of investors of wallet. So everything that happens through the asset, we consider that as part of an internal process that Toco orchestrates. And all of that is operated and done through Hyperledger Fabric. And we then integrate that private layer with the public networks and we treat them as basically gateways to get access to those public networks. We currently have so Hedera, Elkaran, Ethereum and Polygon. We're pushing very hard on Hedera at the moment. We have a lot of functions over there. And this basically gives you all the attributes that you'd expect to see. And this is where basically we mentor tokens and where all of the public information about this token is visible. So I see there's a few questions around sort of why did we pay this architecture private public? Maybe the main thing I'll touch on is this hybrid architecture allows us to pick and choose depending on the asset, depending on the use case that we have, what needs to be on the public space and what needs to remain private. And when we like private is basically, it's accessible only through an authentication layer. So we still have participants, so whitelisted investors or issuers or particular rule-based sort of access that can see this private information, but only if they're allowed to. And then we pick and choose what we choose what we want to put on the public chain to be visible to the sort of whole wide world if that makes sense. So Scott, what do you want to say? Read those questions while you were talking there, Antoine. So let me just dig in a little bit. And before I do, let me just, I'm going to re-say what some of Antoine said, but I'm going to say it from almost more of a data and compliance perspective, because I think that goes to some of the questions. So when you're minting a token and you go in and you can pick your chain and these are the four public chains to deploy on. And then the next question is what's your asset? So you might pick real estate, for example, it's a real estate organization. What then happens is that takes you into a custom built template that has been very specifically designed for that asset class. So obviously we worked with not only with that global, you know, DLA Piper real estate legal team in terms of what are the key bits of information that are relevant to a piece of real estate or an investment in a piece of real estate, but we've also worked with a number of our clients. Now these become quite complex. The most complex real estate template we have is well in excess of 200 different data fields about the underlying asset. And it's everything from physical features through to, you know, the commercial returns and various other aspects of the investable real estate instrument. And then on a literally on a information field plus a data field by data field basis, you can decide through a little slider, do I want the world to be able to see this? It's going to appear on the token, the public token that's deployed on Padera, for example. Or do I want it only accessible in the Hyperledger fabric private chain environment? And obviously any of these public or public permission chains, anyone who knows how to use a block explorer for the relevant chain can now find all this information. And so as an asset owner or issue, you can decide, well, do I want everyone in the world to find out a certain piece of information? Or do I only want specific people? And I'll come back to specific people because there was a question about this in a moment. The other thing we do is allow you to effectively embed complex documents into the token. And we do that by hashing those complex documents. Now I'll stick with my real estate example, the complex documents might include things like the land title certificate or a link to the relevant land registry for the particular property. It might include, you know, shareholders agreements, it might include disclosure information. So any of the sorts of bits of paper that traditionally in a real estate investment you might have had as part of your closing, your deal, all of those documents can be now put into a storage facility, into the Hyperledger fabric private chain environment along with the data field information. And we hash those documents in a better hash or a hash of the hashes into the token. And that allows for future verification that this was in fact the deal that I bought. This was the legal contract. So it's almost like we digitized the closing Bible of a traditional transaction and made it available not only for the primary market issuance and for people involved in the first place, but also to support that secondary market trading when someone's thinking might have interest in investing in this, they can go and access it. Now, what does access mean? And there was specifically a question about ledger confidentiality and who can access it. So for information we put into that private chain environment, firstly, you have to be whitelisted. Obviously we're a regulated provider, so you have to do AML KYC, but then individual issuances might have different roles. Some issuances may only be available to professional investors, not retail. So there will be a requirement for validation about your investor status. Some might have geo blocks or other features around them. So there's a need for investors on the platform to be whitelisted on an issuance by issuance basis and only once whitelisted for a particular issuance can those investors then see the information that's relevant to that particular issuance, that particular project, and therefore that particular token, which I think picks up hopefully the question about the control mechanisms for who can see what. So is it public or is it private? And then within private it's, you need to be approved on an issuance by issuance basis in order to see the relevant information about that. A couple of other questions that came in, why don't we use HLF rather than Zero Knowledge Crew for encryption? I can pick that one if you want. Yeah, let's go. So that one, I think, so first of all, I'll say, I don't rule out the POCO at some point using some form of zero knowledge proof as part of the public leisure integrations that we have. But we just felt really that hyperlogic fabric gives us all the attributes that we need to write around privacy, security, but also around a high level of flexibility in those internal processes being, because I mean, this is a new space, right? Things change really quickly, real fast, and we're creating new assets and new standards, basically weekly. So we needed that ability to quickly update and quickly change our internal logic and processes while still providing the kind of attributes that people in this space have come to expect around traceability, privacy, security. So I just felt like a good, I felt like a good map for us. I also see, can we trace which token was issued by who? Yes, yes, we can. Maybe I'll just add a bit more to that. So basically what we've, well, one of the feature with add-oads and I think is quite critical to what we're doing is basically every transaction that, so maybe I should say every event, every process event that happens on TOCO gets a unique, you can think of it as unique hash or unique identifier for that event. Anytime that event triggers the transactions on the public ledger, we match both the private transactions and the public transaction. So any issuer of an asset can see the entire order trail of what happened throughout the lifecycle of the asset who's issued it to which company they're a part of, but also who's increased the supply of the token at some point, who's done an addition of the wireless to a token or whatever it might be. We'll make sure that we're tracking that. That's quite important. There was a question about how are we different from the likes of Polymath and Poppipation or I don't know, but I do know Polymath and indeed many others in a securitized and Tokeni and other tokenization platforms. I think probably we've answered that already by talking about the richness of data we put into the tokens and the fact that this idea of the need for confidentiality and also data privacy and what information can be shared. You either have a token with no information and frankly that's what others are doing. There's no, the deal isn't in the token for other tokenization platforms or you can put the data in the deal in the token but then you have to control access to who can see it which is what we talked through. So that's one of the fundamental difference from a pure tokenization perspective in the structure of the public private architecture. Obviously the other difference with many of those other providers is that we now have an end to end solution including the ability to distribute, market and promote these regulated assets and to operate a security token exchange for them. Whereas, and that's not entirely unique. A lot of the exchange infrastructure that exists in the world they haven't really thought about tokens. What they've done is they spent a lot of money building exchange infrastructure and then turned around and gone but hang on where are the tokens and there aren't any yet. And that's back to the regulatory challenge about actually getting issuance done which we believe we now have a solution for in Dubai. So there is that, I think there are common elements with a lot of players in the industry. We believe our tokens are vastly superior in terms of providing that richness of data for the right people and controlling who can see it but it's also the ability to offer this end to end solution where we can then act as your broker because otherwise if you're an asset owner and I've seen this I've been trying to do tokenization for clients without the ability to distribute and then you've got well here's your law firm here's your token tokenization capability now you need to go and find yourself a broker dealer are you heading for exchange you need another exchange do they all talk to each other what's the technology integrations what are the commercial integrations actually it's really, really difficult for people to actually do these transactions in the very fragmented market you now need a custodian the custodians may be separate then you pick a tokens standard you suddenly find that all of the people that legally can finally get this deal done not all of them can hold that particular shape or flavor of tokens so you then have technology integration issues so it's been really challenging to get these deals away because of all of that combination of the different pieces and that's why we spent in the last five years putting together the comprehensive end to end solution including the regulatory piece and there are more questions coming in that looked a bit techy that you might have wanted to grab there's one clarification from the question around can you track who you should have token and how much of that information is public it's a very good question actually so it's a good point if you're purely looking at the explorer you will not be able to work out unless you have access to information on TOCA you won't be able to work out the exact name of the person that's done a particular transaction that's where the private public ledger works as well basically you can think of the private information as complimenting the information on the token so if the regulator came to TOCA and said show me all your investors show me all your transactions and show me who has done what then we wouldn't just provide the token information the public ledger information we'd provide the comprehensive information both public and private to make up that full traceability then the other few questions probably more for you Scott around there's one I wanted to pick up so there was a question do we have a TOCA coin if you like and the way I read it was you know can you pay for TOCA services using a TOCA coin for example this is a challenging question and the answer is no well the short answer is no and the short answer and the reason it's no is we believe it would be quite easy to do a coin issuance and a fundraising you know an ICO type coin in fact we have the support of the regulatory divide to do that as a regulated offering my I have a number of issues with with issuing our own coin at this point in time and its impact on and on the equity value of the business I think it's quite a complex issue where we see a lot of we see a lot when we see a lot of coin issuances that spike and then disappear and run the risk of actually creating a negative impact for the business I do have you know I work with I've been a member of a Board of LAO1 protocol for a number of years I've been inside protocols and seen the wrestle of trying to make their native crypto currencies truly gas fees as opposed to speculative financial instruments and the reality in my view of the market based on what I see is the overwhelming majority of crypto today is not bought for the purpose of using it for its intended utility which is to buy is to use it to pay for services on the underlying protocol and so my my view on will there be a toco coin yeah I think there might be but there will be at a point in time when it's sufficiently distinct from our equity or perceived equity value and it has sufficient utility and not just utility in terms of functionality but utility in terms of there's functionality and there's enough people needing it to actually use it for its intended purpose now I don't know if that's right or wrong honestly I don't that's that's my thinking on this topic it's quite a complex topic we've been I've been toying with the idea of you know giving people rights for example if you hold enough of our our tokens not that they exist maybe you get early access to deals for example what other what other features what other sort of membership or yeah when we're sort of loyalty type rights could be embedded in a token and and I think a combination of all these things could emerge into into your course but I would be loath to issue a token at this point in time when you know we're getting going in the level of consumption of that token for the real purpose of buying our services is it is going to be so much less than the actual value of what we might have issued in the market and I think that's one of the challenges that we see with crypto and the the views of the securities regulators that well if it really was for utility how come no one's using it for that so great question we are thinking about it it's not in our immediate future but it definitely is something I think I think we're much more likely to do our own equity token offering at some point next year so watch this space if you're asking if you were asking in case of investment interest that might be one to have a look at there's a question along the same line we're not quite the same but asking around the payment lego whether we considered using crypto currencies for for that with some sort of CBDCs we have we have done a a reference to private debt token that we did a couple of years ago and we actually settled it in ETH we were trying to do it in HBAR but it was too tricky for some reason I can't remember what the reason was but we did settle so we did a tokenized debt instrument which was settled you then using ETH so yes we have done crypto settlement we obviously have done Fiat settlement we are allowed to do both in Dubai we have not done a crypto settlement in Dubai yet we've only got a license on Monday so it's new but we can we can and we'll do both what we are we're not a payment business we're not you know we're not really trying to build payment rails so we are looking for third party solution providers in fact I have a meeting with a Digi Bank tomorrow on exactly this topic you know we don't want to be doing the settlement rails we do have a joint venture NFT enterprise NFT business that uses token into assets and that has a very traditional plug in I think it's try plug in I think for that yeah that's right yeah so you know payments we can do both we have done both it isn't it isn't the part you know clearing a settlement isn't the part of the core part of what we're building ourselves and then the next question um how do you see token disrupting the real estate title business is their downstream token partner that you envision would go the last mile to fully need the needs today the needs of today's title market participant okay let me be controversial I mean the short probably the right answer is the land registries and yes we are in conversations with land registries in multiple jurisdictions we're actually working on a project with the Hong Kong Monetary Authority at the moment which involves tokenization of mortgage interests and charges or liens over over the underlying property and obviously that has a an interaction with how you register those interests on on that particular Byzantine like land registry solution that exists in that market so I think ultimately we will see the digitization of land registries as well which will make this much more interesting but let me come up with a problem another way if you and I like playing investor I don't know why I just in my head I often go to the investor side of these equations because that's where the money's coming from and there was another question about where our users are coming from we have lots of people wanting to do asset issuances tokenized asset issuances that the next part of the equation is do people really want to buy these things I think they're doing we now have a solution for them but if you think about real estate what do you really want you want as an investor you want exposure to the economic interest or what economic interest I think you want exposure to the yield whether that's rental or leasing or whatever whatever it might be there's a money coming in for the use of the asset and there's money going out for the maintenance and costs associated with that asset and assuming there's a positive differential so there's spare money being made at the end of every month for every quarter as a fractional owner or participant in that asset you want you want a piece of that yield but what I think you also want typically is well real estate has a habit of going up in value I'd like exposure to the capital appreciation now I'm a contract lawyer so I've always been very simple about this if you can tell me what you want to give an investor in terms of those two things and I can write it into a contract then I can put that into a token there is no need for that investor to own the property at land registry and indeed there are many good reasons not to be one of many owners on land registries the simplest one is most land registries have limits to how many pro owners you can have I think the UK is four or maybe eight Hong Kong's four there are different rules in different markets but you can't have thousands of co-owners on land registries they just don't have they don't have boxes on their pieces of paper to fill out for that so there's a practical limitation plus if you actually are a co-owner of the property and you sell your tokenised interest you're almost certainly doing a transfer of title or a fractional transfer of title and therefore there's a stamp duty that kicks in because you're now changing ownership of a land registry so actually a lot of the deals then structure above that and another way you can structure it is in a company and that's typical like a REIT whether it's a corporate REIT or a trust or a fund structure and then the asset is owned by the company and then the company either issues in a trust or shares but again if you tokenised the shares in many countries when you then transfer your token you've now got to go and update a share registry who owns the shares and again there might be stamp duty there if you come back to my economic interest description contractually this thing's making money the company that the token has a contract with says I'll give you your monthly yield and when we sell it based on whatever rules or voting we set up you'll get your share of the appreciation now we can do that at contract level no stamp duty no interaction with government registries either land registry or corporate registry and none of the efficiencies associating with having to interact with those registries now it's a that's an example but these are the types of structuring of deals that we're doing because really most investors particularly at the fractional level aren't that worried about necessarily being a co-owner they just want they want the risks of insolvency to be dealt with and there are other ways of doing that but ultimately they want an economic return and we can do that in different ways and again this is where the token is such a wonderful thing because it's just a contractual right that we put in the token that was probably a slightly long and unexpected answer to the question but I think it's something we obviously mean thinking quite deeply about nice cool I think is it worth so I think the next few slides just go a bit more to a bit more details of the product and some of the features in there but maybe I'll trigger some more questions from the audience Scott do you want me to cover this yeah I was trying to read the questions which are on my screen all right uh okay so I think there's a few there's a few concepts I think are quite important to how how we stretch the things in in toko the first one is a concept of the template and we touched on that earlier a lot of the upfront work with the issuer the asset owner is essentially to define what it is that it's trying to tokenize because it's not always straightforward it's not well it's mostly never straightforward it'll get it'll get easy it'll get more kooky color in the future but a lot of the work goes into defining what those key attributes of the assets are what goes private what goes public how does the orchestration in that asset works and all of that once we've once we've sort of specified that that then lives into this concept of an asset template so that then once it's set out the issuer can issue as many of these as they need the we talked already about the public and the private components but I'll just touch on the on some of the other concepts so this this go we the issuance is really just the first step the the creation of the assets and the the minting of that on on public chain beyond that there's a few other concepts that that we that we've worked through the first one is is investor white listing so what investor white listing is is the ability to restrict essentially who can receive or trade a particular token and this ties really closely to the key and key YCML procedures that will we have to do with under the viral sort of regulation so basically any investor comes to the platform would have to go through our internal onboarding process and once they do and if they meet this this specific criteria of a particular asset then will they can be added to to the white list what that means is that we essentially unfreeze the particular wallet of that investor to make sure that they're able to trade and receive that token so it's an added both security layer but also transparency layer on the public network to see what wallet has been has been white listed for particular asset the second one is supply management so this is something that we we've gone into quite a lot of depth with with Aberdeen when we're talking about private funds essentially not all assets are traded over the counter or through some market making buying and selling process private funds many of you might know is basically you go through redemption and subscription process that happens some of those private funds they might have in every six months sometimes every month and there is a given process of basically collecting all the subscription orders or the redemption orders from the investors consolidating that at the end of the month figuring out what the impact has that has on the underlying assets and figuring out whether you now the new net asset value is and based on that issuing or or burning a different a different number of units for the fund and so that's where that's where the supply management comes in where you're basically able to increase or decrease the total supply of a single financial token another concept that's also come out to be quite important as we develop TOCO is the concept of actually updating a token or updating the data or the the data that is attributed to a token which can be a little controversial a little bit unusual for what three but basically it is really important for many of our use cases that the issuers want to have control they want to have the ability to either append new data to the token and the asset that they've created or change the data over time according to specific sort of controls and processes and so what we've developed is a way to do that while keeping traceability over those updates and so anything that's public you can keep a public order trail of all the data that gets updated anything that's private you also have the private order trail of all how the data has been data has been updated over time and then the final one that's probably worth mentioning in contrast to time is the token recovery process which also is it might be quite unusual for people that sort of come from the what three wealth but basically this this is a very important capabilities that we need to have for the tokens that we issue if if the regulator came to us and asked us to recover a token for whatever whatever reason there is then we need the ability to basically recover tokens from a particular wallet and move them to to another you can the obvious example of that is the world of cryptocurrencies I'm sure always happened to many of us on this call where you lose your private keys to your wallets and there's nothing you can do about it in this case in the tokens that we're going to be issue we issue is basically that's not the case you can you can always recover a particular asset according to specific controls and make a checker process you can recover the asset and move it out into another white listed wallet I just want to yeah one question and which is really interesting about trading tokens on a dex how we interact with it my view is that we are not going to see real world assets as in security tokens trading on dexes as we know them from you know current sort of t-fi I know there are examples of it that are there but honestly the regulators are going to shut that down and any asset issuer of any quality is not going to allow their security interests to be trading on dexes where anybody can buy them without necessarily AML KYC without verification that they're a credit investor etc so I just don't believe that we're going to see dexes as being the future for real world asset tokens however we absolutely believe in the concept of liquidity from a dex and so TOCO is about to announce I think I can probably say this we're about to announce a collaboration with the University College London and the London School of Economics where we're going to be building we're going to be working together to build an algorithmic regression market maker solution to provide pricing for tokenized security interests and for that for the code to effectively become the price so that there is a price on the marketplace that we're building and for that generated price to effectively pull liquidity from a liquidity pool so pulling those ideas from DeFi but into a centralized regulated environment I'm calling it a CDEX you heard it here first so yeah it's a great question it's something we're thinking deeply about but I honestly don't think there will be a future where unregulated dex is where security tokens are really trading there was also one final question about the RC 1400 do we already have 1400? I wish we did not yet so we it's a great question actually and very timely the we so we don't support our RC 1200 1400 yet it is something that we are looking into though and we interestingly we're working really closely with Hedera Hedera team on a particular real estate use case where we've actually borrowed a lot of the the concepts from the 1400 but also from others to to improve or to add to their tokenization service so we we might actually get to a point where all of these functions are actually built in the HDS service which would mean incredibly fast transactions incredibly cheap transactions all the benefits you get from Hedera with all the capability that you'd get from a from a standard like 1400 but yeah good question we do spend a lot of our time trying to convince protocols to build more of the functionality near level rather than us having to build it you know at our level and obviously it will be available for everyone to use and we do quite a lot of work you know trying to encourage protocols giving them ideas to build in I believe we're in time one we are reaching the end of the R so could we start wrapping up I know we lost a couple of minutes so if we can wrap up the next five I'll be able to to be honest to you Scott is anything else you wanted to cover for sure or I think I think we got that was our last slide wasn't it last substantive slide yeah yeah yeah I mean the most important was to generate discussion which which got loads of questions that's good any other questions this was a very you know productive discussion I was looking forward to it and you folks you know hit it out of the ballpark should really appreciate it Scott just for the benefit of the community do you have any upcoming conferences or events you'll be speaking that is available you know to the general public for people to follow you I you have some great videos on YouTube so the folks who want to learn more um you can find some cool videos on you know that Scott has done in the past on YouTube and and Scott any any other you know events that we should keep an eye out for yeah and there is on on the top of the network website we've got an insights page which has you know a lot of those videos consolidated into a single page so some of the previous things that we've done I there is a lot of conferences coming up I'm at Hong Kong FinTech week which is I think either end of October I'm at the web summit in Lisbon in November starting at 13th November there are several others coming up I just can't remember off the top of my top of my head great doing doing well with Aberdeen but yeah there's a few there's a few coming up for sure I had one other question in the real estate front for the real estate use case right are you seeing the traction happening more with the bigger asset managers that may be multi-billion billion plus assets under management or is it some of the mid-market ones that are are you know the early adopters I don't think when we're seeing traction just beginning to happen and it's happening there is there is a lot of activity happening at frankly at all levels so the disruptors new models new financial models that we're seeing the big real estate developers asset owners big big landlords or providers of social housing or whatever else there are a number of these players that are certainly looking looking at it so I think the the entire real estate industry is actually looking at and I don't think it's necessarily confined I think what you see is different challenges for different parts of that ecosystem so for the disruptors who are trying to build brand new financial products that the world's never seen before that look amazing but they're a startup so how do they start convincing people to pour in you know the and the problem with real estate is it's a expensive asset it is the biggest asset class on the planet and so when a startup wants to get going then you start saying well what we really need to do to see this is 50 to 100 million in the US dollars well that sounds like a lot of money but it isn't really I mean it's maybe only 50 to 100 houses and that's at the residential level so because it's such an expensive asset class some are really innovative ideas to get that fly wheel going they're probably they find it harder to get to get the initial investment and for the bigger providers well they're either disrupting the industry and in many cases disrupting themselves so there's a level of inertia and obviously risk and compliance you know that comes with with big corporates so I think they but I think my view is next year is going to be the year for at the real hockey stick moment for for this particularly particularly where we are you know in the Middle East because you can now you can now do it in a way that's very very clear I think the the uncertainty and the negative press in the in the DLT crypto markets in particular has has again slowed adoption to a certain extent but I'm not seeing a lack of ambition that's for sure and to your point I don't either I think you know we're we're betting on both sides so we're working with the small disruptors and we're working with some of the biggest you know real estate developers both both want to do it and both know they that's the future of their industry they just both have different components that making it hard to get them off the ground and scale but it's definitely starting to have fantastic that thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us Antoine and Scott oh we'd love to see you come back in the future and you know talk you know some some other use cases and maybe delve a little deeper we'll really look forward to that I'll be in touch so a lot of positive comments people have appreciated this session once again I wish you the very best and yeah we'll we'll love to see you back in the future thanks very much thanks everyone thanks everyone we'll we'll start signing out now appreciate everyone sharing