 history at the University of Göttingen. I will kindly introduce every speaker for a minute maximum and then have a hand over the chair of the table to the speaker. We'll have the talks and the questions together, one after the other. So we have 33 30-minute slots. We stick to the envisage time of 90 minutes to close this panel and then we'll head to whatever the organizers want us to. Our first speaker this morning is Hajir Bin Dries, an assistant professor at the University of Tunisia. Hajir teaches Anglophone literature so she probably speaks French very well but also English very well due to her studies and her research addresses post-colonial and gender studies. She's president of the research group Gender Studies affiliated to the laboratory of philosophy at the same university she's teaching. She's also editor of Women Violence and Resistance and I take this as one of her last publications that came out last year 2017. Hajir, Dr. Hajir is going to speak today on and I quote your title of maps and stories place-telling in Camila Shamsi's Cartography. The floor is yours. Thank you very much. Hello everybody. First, the map or the story? In other words, does storytelling stem from a map real or imaginary or does the story yield a map? The question may sound odd as it places us midway between literature and cartography and yet it is the convention of this paper to open up venues of negotiation and dialogue between storytelling and mapping. R. L. Stevenson's anecdote of the story in his essay titled my first book The Treasure Island published in 1894 establishes the real aesthetic link between the story and the map or is it the other round? The map and the story. Stevenson's story as it goes was meant to be decisive. In the beginning there was the map. Constraints to stay indoors because of weak health Stevenson had to entertain a young schoolboy who had no thought for literature but cherished instead a great red election for watercolors. The writer ended up with the map, I quote, the map of an island. It was elaborately and beautifully colored. The shape of it took my fancy beyond expression. It contained harvest that pieced me like summits and with the unconsciousness of the predestinate I dedicated my performance to measure the island and of course. The map representing this collecting of the story only needed to be converted into words. Indeed the next thing I knew Stevenson adds, I quote, I had some paper before me and was writing out the list of chapters and of course. As he de-lose his map Stevenson could see characters moving and interacting and thus was born the story. Stevenson promotes the map as the backbone of the story, the scuffle of narration and the liver of action. And yet Stevenson's little story of maps and stories leaves room for an alternative genesis. Even though his map as he claims begets the story there must have been a shade of a story, albeit with a graphical one, while drawing the contours of his island. This takes us to the first side of the map story friendship, the one that assumes that that map making is a progeny of the story time. Ironically enough Stevenson, who wrote the story up to the map, had to reconstruct his map up to the story later. The map was lost in its way along with the manuscript to be republished. He had to examine the whole book, I quote, make an inventory of all the illusions contained in it and with a pair of compass, paintfully designed a map to suit the data, end of quote. My paper builds on this specific accordion, the undecided relationship between maps and stories. Kavina Shams' cartography complicates this relationship as the narrative dramatizes the competing rapport between mapping and storytelling. More than a century later, in a short essay titled Over, Over to Google or not to Google, published in 2009, Kavina Shamsi provides us with the story reminiscent, albeit in a broad way, of Stevenson's. In her anecdote, Shamsi records the obsessive hours she spent on Google Earth following the tracks of her characters. Even though sharing with Stevenson a compulsive relationship with matters, Shamsi brings mapping to the realm of politics. Looking for the Kazakhian Afghanistan on Google Earth, she was confronted with blurring maps compared to the detailed and bright ones of New York City, for instance. Such an imbalanced cartographic production and distribution has an impact on what story to tell and whose story to hear. Like Stevenson, Shamsi concludes her essay with the celebration of the map's capacity to repubrate storytelling. I quote, in a stupiness, may have tried to separate fiction from fact in the world of cartography. But more than 2000 years later, we're still using maps to describe our stories on the world. I provide you with very short synopsis of the novel, but for those who are not familiar with the cartography. Set in an ethnically divided hierarchy in the 1980s and 1990s, the narrative revisits the turbulent period of the 1970s during the minor-deshi secession war and the subsequent partition of Pakistan. The troubled political life is juxtaposed to the lives of Rahim and Kaleem, whose father is swapped from his father in 70s. At the age of 13, the two friends are separated as Kaleem's father decides to escape the ethical violence of Karachi and migrate to England. Rahim and Kaleem strive to keep their old friendship, but the shadow of the past infests their relationship, now that Kaleem knows why their parents swapped forces. Their best relationship revolves mainly around Kaleem's decision to become a cartographer. Rahim believes that cartography cannot account of the spirit of a place. It is a cold rendition of a space. Much of the narrative is an attempt at reconciling storytelling advocated by Rahim to mapmaking promoted by Kaleem. By the end of the narrative, both reached the arena as they agreed to work on an interactive map where cartography doesn't obliterate the stories of Karachi. Shamsi's deliberately mispelled the title of cartography in which the case stands for Karachi sets the tone for the critical assessment of the narrative. The majority of the states have taken up the cartographic thematic as pressing for chip of debate. My reading of Shamsi's cartography looks into the map story continuum. It demonstrates that maps offer a narrative model tightly linked to storytelling. My argument is twofold. First, the potential of cartographic language to express the sense of place. And second, the capacity of storytelling to configure a map. I propose to explore the poetic contours of the map that is the ancient aesthetic alliance between mapping and storytelling. I also show the conjunction between the narrative power of maps and the cartographic capacity of stories. Of course, I won't be able to do all these in details in 20 minutes. I'll do my best to be as or yet as possible. The first part of this paper subtitled maps and stories continuum and connections. Shamsi programs in her aesthetic project modes of cartographic theory and practice. This section of the paper stems from such a conscious dialogue between mapping and storytelling. It functions as a critical and theoretical background for my of my reading. Shamsi's narrative engages in the disciplinary hierarchies, instigated more than 2,000 years ago by the aristocrats of Alexandria, who promoted the geography as a scientific discipline based on mathematics. He is said to have coined the trend geographical that he is fighting the world. The world graphical designates both written and Victorian representation. And thus, geographical can signify representation in texts, in maps, or in written directions for drawing maps. And yet, in his cleansing of the field, his stupidness is not to writers and poets, such as Homer, claiming that the poet directs his hope attention to the amusement of the mind and not at all for his instruction. A few centuries later, geographer and historian, Strabo, launched a fierce attack on Aristophanes' scientific snobbery and proclaimed Homer the founder of geographical science and the father of geography. In the introduction to his work titled Geography, he dedicates Homer's work and aligns it to the theoretical portion of geography. Worthy of respect, he claims because I quote, on the one hand, it embraces the arts, mathematics, and natural science on the other history and fable. The overlapping boundaries between geography and literature extended to maps and texts, both belong to traditions of graphic rhetoric inherited from the age of the manuscript and print culture in its early phases. In the Middle Ages, the word Mapa or Mapa Mundi referred interchangeably to texts and maps. And after the 17th century, there was a sheer preference for geographic texts written in literary style over those using cartographic components. Robert Tolley's claim that all narratives per take of the cartographic imperative finds resonance in the work of several scholars working in literary and geographical studies who have emphasized the theological relationship between mapping and storytelling. In a state titled Maps and the Stories, a Brief Meditation, Ihab Hassan claims maps to be, I quote, our sacred fictions of the world. The narratorial capacity of maps underlines Abraham Resnitz's book, Maps, Tell Stories 2, whose objective is to promote an awareness about and familiarization with the language of maps. Gazetti and Varsi defend a similar argument in parts and places the structure of spatial representation wherein they ascribe a semantics to maps. This shared linguistic quality functions in a reversible way. While maps can be converted into stories, stories can also become maps. This idea is explored in Pikachu's Maps of the Imagination, the vitreous cartographer, when he claims, I quote, to ask for a map is to say, tell me a story, end of quote. Franco Moretti sustains the reversible nature of maps in Atlus of the European level. He states, the big map is worth a thousand words, cartographers say, and they are right, it produces a thousand words, it raises doubt, ideas, end of quote. As maps function and behave like texts, they find a comfortable position in data technology. The purpose on the textual quality of maps and their subtle affinity with its rare productions has started to gain ground since the late 1980s. Geographers themselves have started with hinting maps and relocating their technologically oriented concerns into a culturally driven vision of maps and mapping. The emphasis on the technical part and the scientific precision, jointly defended by representation of cartography, are debunked by the post-representation of approach wherein cartography is studied within cultural contexts of production and circulation. This is how the map reader becomes as important as the map maker. Viewing maps as writing apps results in drawing on the meta-language of negativity to deal with cartographical discourses and practices. Life texts maps us for readers and reading strategies and approaches. The map exudes the same narrative power yielded by a literary text and is therefore prone to deconstruction. In an article titled deconstructing the map hundreds draws on Foucault's theorization of power, theorization of power, to examine knowledge construction in maps. He also makes use of Delida's insights into the rhetorical quality of all texts to interrogate the interplay of center and margin in the map. Maps act like stories and novels. They have points of view and rely much on selection and permission. The language of literature is reassigned in cartographic criticism thus narrowing further any gap between literary texts and maps. Dennis Wood and John Fells, for instance, largely draw on Gérard Genet's terminology in paratexts, thresholds of interpretation. Probing the questions of maps' authorities, circulation and marketability, they present their own voyage of the pyramap which they simplified into pelimap and ekimap. Pressing the boundaries of cartography to knowledge, Dennis Wood insists on seeing a chain of stories in an atlas. He advocates a mode of reading maps inspired from Roman Barthes' model of deserous and bizarre texts which he part, which Barth elucidates in the fashion of the text. Camilla Shams' narrative recuperates this dialogue between maps and stories and provides story-like maps and map-like stories. This leads me to the second part of this paper, the subtitle, Tender Maps, Carim's Story of Kanachi. Carim's map, the one he draws on his way to the airport, is the first map inserted into the novel. Its neurological significance resides in its misogynistic function. The map serves as an embedded story and shares plot elements, structural features and themes with the main story. Indeed, Carim's story, masquerading as a map, is tightly related to the novel's plot. It is a major crisis in the narrative announcing the geographical separation of Rahim and Carim. The drawing to the airport occurs in an almost complete, complete science. Rahim, the narrator, silently observes everybody. The drawing episode represents a narrative hiatus as the flow of narration is suspended and replaced by Carim's map. On the level of narration then, the map emerges as the story teller. It turns out to be Carim's graphic story of his childhood places. Comparing it to Paris's allergy, Caroline Herbert calls it a direct map. I prefer to call it a tender map and thus align it to the earliest map embedded in a novel. In 1654, French Maglaine de Spudery, alias Zafo, published Clévie Histoire Romaine. Clévie contains a map she calls car de vie de temps, a map of land of tenderness. It represents the topographical allegory of the different stages of a love relationship. What they take from Zafo's map is its emotional quality and calls as a psychogeography. Shamsi, who believes Pakistan to be the great storytelling country, declares in one of her interviews that her novels purport and quote to create different story maps of Karachi out of words. Carim's hand-drawn map, which she calls intimate, maps an alternative story of his childhood city. Carim's map doesn't conform to the first eye view of a scientific map, which offers a view from above without any specific aperture or vantage point. His map behaves like a written story based on the plot, with rising action, crisis, and anymore. And you can now follow my analysis on the copies of the map. Spread on one page, Carim's map story has a title, a map, underlined and placed at the top of the page. On the bottom, he places his signature, Carim 87 Karachi. Culturally to the modern map, where the map maker is an anonymous figure producing a still and silent world, Carim's is the personalized and story-fied map personalized through signature, story-fied through title. It has a beginning, start here, and an ending airport. The story opens with the place of departure, his house, which he leaves named as on the map, while writing between parenthesis someone else's and tomorrow. As the car moves on, he starts drawing his personalized map using the first person point of view. His online map shows street names, it alludes at the urban development of the city, as he remarks on the margin of his map at the beginning of his journey to the airport. All this was seen when we were kids, but now it's houses. Mapping here among the mates, personal and public spaces, memory and cartography. The serious story map is interrupted by other sub-stories represented in the first roundabout diverging diverging into two roads, one leading to the sea, his childhood playground, the other to a haunted palace, his childhood mess. As he progresses in his map story, which takes and descending motion similar to the rising tension in the story plot, we reach the crisis at Kayavani Iqbal area. In the third roundabout, Keirin inserts an arrow to point at the position of a monument called three swords, Tintalwar, which he writes in Urdu letters. The crisis, a linguistic one, is encased in two parenthesis where I forget Urdu. Keirin's fear of losing his language after his deportation to England serves as a historical nut to an ethnically divided city still fraught with linguistic scarcity. As we follow Keirin in his upward movement, we reach the climax of the story at Abdullah Harain Road indicated by an arrow and Keirin's written text on the margin. And you see the quote there, I skip it. This arrow episode serves as a climax to the whole story map. It is at this point both emotionally and spatially charged that the story reaches a highest degree of tension leading to the two friends' separation. It is quite significant that this episode is placed at the highest point of the map. After Abdullah Harain wrote, the map indicates the road leading to the airport. The road in Rata horizontal line imitating the following action in a graph representing the story plot. The airport represents the denouement of the story. Here I don't know how to say goodbye, Keirin writes. And I finished reading two minutes, my conclusion. Great, great. Keirin's map is worth a thousand words in Rata's phrasing. It definitely tells the story or rather several stories. The textual quality of his hand drawn map offers a pretty neat example of what Julia Cristina calls the spatial conception of language's poetic operation. She proposes three dimensions of the text, writing subject, accuracy, and exterior texts. The dynamic relationship between these three dimensions, what coordinates, operates on two axes, a horizontal axis, linking writer and reader, and a vertical axis linking the given text to exterior texts and contexts. According to this interpretive model, Keirin's map functioning as a full text on its own, horizontally links the writer or map maker and reader or map user. It unfolds as a poignant story of dislocation as the writer or map maker is forced to leave the family at home here towards an unknown there he designates as a star gate, a reference to the Kani unmarked world. The map is a nemonic act, an attempt at memorizing home. It also functions on a vertical axis as its full understanding can only operate within the historical and cultural context of its drawing, writing. The map becomes an act of storytelling functioning as a montage of both self and place and combining in Homebaba's phrasing, mention, and narration. Thank you very much. Thank you very much for standing so precisely to the time that was allocated to you. We did know this leaves us 10 minutes for questions so that's wonderful to our comments to get that presentation which I found very stimulating. So I opened the floor to the discussion over there please at the top yeah ah you didn't okay then let's make let me make it. It's not really a question I just want to say that I'm extremely grateful for this analysis. I'm so stimulated and so in current I've known Kabila Shamsi today, I haven't been able to look at your work closely but now I think that's the first thing you're going to do. So thank you very much. Thank you. Okay so let me let me make a comment because I was also very stimulated by your methodological approaches. How to equate text to maps that I thought of a difference of a very important difference between these two sets of let's say icons. Texts work linear while maps and you have very nice examples here they work how do I say pluralistic you don't have a you can't follow or you don't follow a way to read you can pick this spot or that icon or you look to this fish or to that sea and you you build as a reader you build up some some impression of the map so so I think the the maps function more let's say unstructured for the reader while the text gives you a you know a line to follow otherwise you wouldn't get the the meaning would you would you agree to this? Well in a sense yes but it depends on the text now there are text text which are highly fragmented if you take postmodern text for example texts which texts which have no aperture this is what one of that calls text of a place those texts which have no precise aperture you can you can add to them anywhere you want but this specific map which I call tandem map I mean following the earliest map this is quite specific one okay and Chamsi includes it to show that map making can also count of place making because the problem here between the two major characters in the narrative is that Raheem is against cartography because because map making for her is very cold a cold traditional space it deals only with space while Kayeem wants to control space and has its reason because all the wars in Pakistan or problems of the ethnic problems etc so so this is a way to show in a way okay that maps can also show the spirit of the place and can tell stories too. You're right this is a very linear map but but you showed the historic maps before if you will switch back to this rivers and you know I was somehow aesthetically appealed more than by a black and white paper text so so I think there are other notions just to add to what you said yeah to your methodological comments thank you nothing no no critique it's just an addition then we continue ahead of time probably there's some more there are some more questions for the next paper to our second speaker who is Nikita Gloria Pinto a MA student in English literature at the University of Delhi in India she graduated sorry so she's a PhD student oh no i'm in my point of view of masters oh okay yeah so you graduated as a BA as a BA student probably from Stella Maris College in Chennai India and I was told that she won a gold medal for her BA thesis or for graduation so congratulations to that Mrs Pinto has presented several papers so she's pursuing a academic career already already on postcolonial literature or speculative fiction and her areas of interest are detective fiction speculative fiction and as I said postcolonial literature today she's speaking on the same word we just heard about i.e Kamila Shamsi's cartography and the title of the presentation is mapping migration identity and nationalism in the set word the floor is yours thank you so I'll be looking at Kamila Shamsi's cartography but I'll be focusing on the motive of cartography and how it relates to migration nationalism and even memory so the normal is set during the derby of the 20th century and it explores the effects of historical events that shape Pakistan and the principal characters and best friends Doreen and Kareem the title cartography itself draws attention to the differences that divide Karachi both geographical and psychological these differences highlight the city's trauma within past which is entrenched in violence, war and migration Zalee's repeat with historical circumstances of conflict and loss from the conquest of Alexander VIII to British colonialism to the partition from India 1947 to civil war and creation of Bangladesh 1971 additionally the narrator Raheem observes that conflict is ever present in the city depicted as continually and I quote feasting on its own blood the numerous instances of political ethnic and factional based violence that persisted in the following decades the statement is quite appropriate the circuit of historical strain takes on geopolitical dimensions with the motive of mapping and all at a time where boundaries are constantly reassessed physically and mentally mapping and storytelling are used as an attempt to collapse time and distance during a period subsumed by ethnic riots the constant threat of exile and dislocation is intensified in a society the basis itself on real exclusion creating ripples in the relationships among the characters the normal centers in the relationship between best friends and potential lovers Raheem and Karim who separate because of the conflicts in Karachi as well as conflicts that characterize their own respective parents histories David Waterman in Kamila Shamsi's cartography the itinerary of cultural identity notes that and I quote the trauma of war always built over on the domestic map and this is embodied in the family struggles with ethnic differences migration and able memory both sets of parents as you can see in the diagram behind me were initially engaged in each other but underwent a fiancé swap amid the mounting tensions during the civil war 1971 these actions characterized by conflict have repercussions on their children who grow apart from each other in the year of the true nature behind the fiancé swap Raheem's father Zafar or Mohajir was initially engaged to Malina Bengali and Karim's mother during the civil war with Bangladesh he becomes complicit in the atrocities of ethnic cleansing when he is confronted by a neighbor whose brother was killed in East Pakistan during the war when he is questioned as to how he could possibly marry the enemy Zafar who's true motivation behind his statement is unknown responds with how can I marry one of them think of it as a civic duty I'll be dying thing of a Bengali birthline which ultimately results in the dissolution of the couple's engagement with this intergenerational traumatic experience that lingers on to the present most of the characters negotiate with stories to tell while suffering from a collective amnesia choosing to get and remain silent on the injustices of the past as Zafar notes the only thing that Pakistan has learned from its repeated and dangerous mistakes is how to forget he writes in a letter what are the things we must have done then to remain silent is it shame at using the war or guilt about what we did that needs us his reflection of consensual silence alludes to the larger problem of the mainstream funerary narrative this enables a literal remapping of Pakistan where certain aspects of history are calculatingly erased and even created to further ideologies of nationalism in an imagined community while painting the other as an enemy and I quote from the novel we act as our history can be erased the cost of remembering if we allow ourselves for a ratio of we tell ourselves that things can be forgotten we tell ourselves that it is possible to have acts without a consequences in cartography Kamila Shamsi undertakes a task of what Caroline Herbert calls uncovering Pakistan's silence histories the silenced histories here refer to the genocide and repression of Bengalis when such atrocities as she notes were exiled were exiled from official histories just as the parents excise and censor their past from their children this is also the case with traditional maps that claim to present fixed truths which are going to go on to unpay all cartography is repeat with instances of migration that go beyond the boundaries of Pakistan the act of traveling does not just offer through distance but also time locations keep shifting the novel as the characters travel from Karachi to all over the world while this migration is often voluntary the novel hints at two major instances of mass migration that shaped Pakistan history both largely involuntary the partition in 1947 and the creation of our relation 1971 in the later in 1985 James father Ali decides that the only solution in the wake of ethnic riots is to migrate to London feeling that history may repeat itself in danger is Bengali wife Maheen leaving home because of conflict becomes a common theme in the novel and in Pakistani history for people like Maheen very concept of home becomes ambiguous in our country that establishes itself as enemy territory and she is supposed to remain in exile belonging neither here nor there she real states that she does not wish to live Karachi as she would become a stranger among strangers however during the 1971 civil war Maheen and other Bengalis in West Pakistan are constantly perceived as other slurs and accusations are thrown at her and her currency at the time example who was by association labeled a traitor and a Bengal owl these iniquities and exclusions form a part of the Pakistani existence which is taken further in the act of calligraphy itself the process of calligraphy or mach-making is based on excluding other elements of the story it relies on constructing boundaries to define territories in this manner the nation state and dominant groups assert the hegemony by drawing literal and figurative boundaries to control the narrative and exclude the other these ethnic conflicts arise largely in the issue of space and place in the novel Zafar argues that even though East Pakistan which is now Bangladesh has a larger population they are ignored by the centre they repeated exclusion from the centre results in demands for independence and subsequently civil war similarly the partition between India and Pakistan merely arose due to marginalisation of the Muslim population by the centre J. Edward Mallet notes in a land outside space and expands without distances and I quote marginalisation relies on constructing and maintaining geographical margins and often arbitrary imaginary process that solidifies one view by shutting others out in the novel Zafar do notes the irony behind the formation of Pakistan that its creation was the only way the viewers saw possible to safeguard the rights of a minority power within India How can Pakistan still be when we have so abused that image first by ensuring Bengalis were minimised and marginalised and then by reacting to the demands for greater rights with acts of symmetry for a nation that was built around this idea of inclusion and accommodation it is largely xenophobic often fearing the threat of new immigrants like the Bengalis and the Falcons Ibn Yasmin acknowledges the paradox of the creation of the Mahajan homeland we left India 1947 we let us who we've seen that we cannot live amid this injustice and then we came to a new homeland and became a willing part of a system that perpetuated marginalisation and intolerance of the Bengalis Malat observes that maps foster the creation of myths that would assist them in maintaining the territorial status quo maps strengthen the notion of the nation as an imaginary community as nationalism relies on imposition and strengthening of borders Borders are commercial to the formation of national identities to distinguish us from them however the act of migrations subverts the concept of a permanent permanent territorial identity and even leads to a fluid national identity as a result tensions mount between various ethnic groups in the normal who feel threatened by this change and Ilar for example who belongs to the feudal simile elite asserts Karachi is my home you know why did those bloody Mahajis have to go and form a political group like they did thinking that they can thinking that just because they are majority in Karachi they can travel over everyone else my family lived there for generations who the hell are these Mahajis to pretend it's their city the Mahajis are constantly labeled as immigrants as strangers and outsiders who do not belong to Karachi despite having occupied the city for generations Asaf Laila's husband also remarks that Mahajis will never understand the way we feel about land we all left their homes at partition no understanding of ties to a place Asaf and Laila reflect the same perception of themselves as natives strongly bound in the land where their motion of home is dependent on perceive the Mahajis as outsiders Shamsi therefore problematizes the very Shamsi therefore problematizes the very notion of being at home in Pakistan and this hostility is not just reserved for the Bengali population but also the Mahajis therefore territory is important to the nativeist narrative as it facilitates the positioning of Mahajis as outsiders a term Safar resents because of its connotation as immigrant Safar asserts that and I quote Mahajis came here leaving everything behind our homes our families our ways of life however as Cleo Fumar observes in Mahajis as a diaspora and in Tizawa Hussein the sea lies ahead in Karina Shamsi's category the Mahajis diaspora is not so much about retaining ties to the ancestral land as it is about preserving the memory of migration in their memorialization of the migrant past displacement comes to shape the very sense of self this sense of anxiety is also experienced by the children too Pakistan is for predestinations subsumed in conflict and this conflict continues even in the 1980s forcing Kareem's family to migrate to London Kareem feels displaced and says I've always started thinking of Karachi as a place I have to say goodbye to this must be what dying is like his anxiety is about anxiety from Karachi are intensified later when he realizes the significance of 1971 to his family's disintegration and invariably his separation from Rahim Kareem tells Rahim that he is trying to come to grips with Karachi's nature which according to him can be properly materialized to the act to the art of cartography as Malik argues and I quote unless the politics fueling and fueled by cartography are understood unless Karachi's citizens comprehend the destructive potential of a place the city will continue to struggle with violence and war for Kareem maps act as a way for him to rationalize everything around him to bring order to the violent chaos of Karachi and his moments of distress he turns to cartography so as to map out his emotions Kareem on the way to the on the way to the airport blocks out street signs and the route to the airport from home in his notebook when he leaves for London as a way of remembering Karachi this hand drawn map of Kareem's in 1987 is permeated with memories and anxieties of leaving home at the point marked home in the map he notes that he will be occupied by someone else by tomorrow signifying the temporality and transient nature of places similarly Rahim after hearing about the true nature of events surrounding her parents' fiance's walk leaves our home in a state of shock driving as far away as she can get while remembering specific locations to console herself locations are of significance in the novel especially when it's embedded in memory also in his construction of the map Kareem wonders whether he will forget Urdu language 2 is tied to the concept of home however in Kareem in 1987 he knows a Bengali aspect of his identity he does not seem to question whether he will forget the Bengali part of his heritage as Caroline Herbert observes Bangladesh is an airport an absent presence in contemporary Pakistan's material and imaginative space and both moreover there are various instances in the novel where Rahim Hasraf alludes to their sameness to the inseparable and conjoined identities it can be long that Rahim attempts to establish that there are no differences between them in spite of the diverse respective heritages therefore making them equal in the face of the nation-state's predisposition on creating the other alternatively it can be argued that Rahim is ignoring his difference just as the nation-state has ignored the laws of Bangladesh her desire for sameness reflects the state's ideology of suppressing difference for national sameness as what women knows and I quote the politics of location always seems to result in the recording of a partial identity where the immigrant is seen as a somewhat impure Pakistani certainly not a Sindhi a non-acquired Karachiite both Rahim and Karim have differing attitudes with respect to maps Karim is preoccupied with facts and official names of places that need to be charted on maps however for Rahim memories and stories cannot be ignored or erased in the geographical composition of a place as they help hear the heartbeat of the place she labels Karim as a foreign choreographer who substitutes lived experience with clinical facts and names as she writes in her college paper but if you leave Zaito and forget its magic you will start listening to the poison of those who all say streets must have names you will join in the task of making directions easy for foreign travelers and one by one as you end in your map they disappear the fruit cell of the ghost the friends you never said goodbye to however she has used an intimacy with the city that alienates Karim here she mistakes intimacy for exclusion and I quote that map that map marks you as an expat and not a Karachiite people here don't talk in street names anymore through the act of mapping through the act of mapping Karim illustrates how limited Britain's life is in the context of Karachi's identity politics this prompts her to acknowledge that her privilege facilitated her blink of worldview as it allowed for the reach of D2D struggles of ethnic politics Karim's intimate map in 1995 allows for an inclusive space for proposing Karachi's multiple stories often delegated to the margins and mainstream narratives the map according to him would highlight the city's social linguistic diversity while creating a space for inclusivity and belonging as it would include and I quote some files of Karachiites telling stories in different languages with graphics for people who are illiterate and who would these and infinite maps are not only symbolic of progress but they also allow for the negation of alienation and exile felt by Karachiites themselves Mapping Karachi therefore allows for reconciliation as Malin notes the internet map allows for space memory, community, and union together and quote Karim's obsession with maps gives him a nuanced understanding of the past and its traumas while initially creating boundaries between them maps unite Raheem and Karim as they decide to work together on the interactive internet map thereby bringing order to the disorder of Karachi's traumatic past while being a space for reconciliation thank you thank you very much for your presentation again also thanks for staying within the time frame that was set are there comments or questions so let me let me come forward with one question or one comment you seem very fascinated of this book which you analyzed which you analyzed in depth Mia is someone who is not very familiar with Pakistani Indian or Bangladeshi history can you can you tell me a few words what's what makes this book so precious or so worth for for deep scientific analysis you mean in terms of history what is fascinating you what fascinates me about the novel actually the novel I was more drawn to the writing the way she's written it it's beautifully written and yeah and she talks about I mean at least as an Indian we don't really we're not that familiar with other South Asian companies their histories so this novel happened to be in one of our South Asian papers so I mean I was drawn to it because I mean this was off in a completely different perspective from at least Indians aren't really familiar with Pakistan history at all so this definitely you want to add something yes yes I mean you I really I mean whether you want her having read Kabila Shamsi's the other side of the story because she speaks about partition second partition this one partition of Pakistan but India also was moved so but you have you as an Indian your own story of this in a way and then you say not exactly as usual of course because these two countries were sort of enemies at the point at that point so India would have its own perspective on partition it would probably be blaming Pakistan for the separation in terms of I mean like the different perspectives from India's point of view yes yes for you I mean for you I mean but the meaning actually was in India's point of view not really because my generation isn't that I mean affected at least at least if I look in my peers this is not something that we talk about at all so I don't think in my parents generation was affected maybe grand parents so this is something that isn't spoken about but the feelings of enemies are still there somehow between these two countries even though it has nothing to do with some of us in the present it's still there like you can even see and something that picket matches you can see if you sort of maybe then still exist between the two countries again I mean but what I find really fascinating that you are telling me that your generation doesn't give a damn about partition about all these things and yet how can you explain this obsession with this specific topic in South Asia literature on the both sides I mean with Pakistan literature and in India literature this trauma partition is there for many years now I'm still now they are still not talking about this so also there's the fact that so the partition I think at least from what I know it did not affect South India that much so most of the regions are not really like I know of people whose ancestors were directly affected by the event so that sort of has more dramatic impact on their memories as certain how they pass it on to their generations but a certain parts of India were sort of cut off from all of whatever was happening during that time but yeah I mean I think it's only of late that people are sort of revisiting the past and sort of sort of uncovering those histories and what they actually meant and sort of looking at it from an objective perspective because at that time things were pretty subjective thank you we have another yeah we have one question here then there and then there there's a small comment that you're making as a question is again related to this it's not then there are projects that were known as past there has been a variety of combinations it's significantly about the old independence drama in the olden age on the fact that India passed that continent my little comment or question would be there that in what extent in terms of the science this actual kind of graph that has to do with what India's writing is related to the whole of those to the data narrative that we have in regard to that this drama that was unfortunately so you're asking to what extent is the novel it's a very clear yes yeah sorry you're asking whether the novel deals with the partition and the consequences of that like to what extent it's actually yeah it in the narrative or negative or negative it it does actually even though the narrative is quite fictional there were possibilities I mean you could say that there I mean there were possibilities of people from two nations like say Bangladesh and Pakistan to work together but had to separate there was so I mean I think it might be a miracle function there was so many cases of that happening so you know this account is fictional she does draw from facts it is pretty much grounded I mean it is a little romanticized in the novel because but there is also a romance at the heart of it but yeah it is pretty much there is a lot of she has drawn a lot from history so I'm not sure there is still room for the you know taximind yeah there are taximind yeah there is because I've been reading somewhere that one of the critics had a problem with the novel that she sort of ignored the so the thing is Pakistan's violent history I mean it's still ongoing and the idea of immigration it's still ongoing so I think the Afghan refugees were not clearly focused in the novel like we were mentioned so there is room for sort of exploring that aspect because but the Bengali aspect and the mohajil aspect was pretty much explored in the novel but this was something that was sort of not exactly you know what it was mentioned but this is also something that has been happening over here so there's room for that the dean raised his hands please oh I'm sorry oh I'm sorry that I mistook you but at least it's your it's your time anyway yeah well Midnight's children was on the rates this split minutes I mean midnight's when India was and I stand and were separated and I believe that Salman Rushdie started in a way I mean to globalize this question of partition and Muhammad here who believes that writers and I think professor Muhammad I'm talking about I mean because of his question he believes that writers are magnifying this this question of partition now it is a trauma it is a real trauma and many writers are talking about it they didn't take things from the same perspective but the the pain of trauma is there Salman Rushdie traumatizes other parts of it Candela Shamsi is very young and she speaks about the it's not the same partition by the way okay Candela Shamsi speaks about partition of Pakistan and Red attention then the 73 Salman Rushdie speaks about the first partition but the trauma of partition is there the pain of partition of violence is there and I believe that this is what they need to represent to to to to heal through words perfection I believe this is why it is ongoing thank you we have three more questions and with that I would close the the speakers list one one two three no over there the gentleman over there yeah on the term Moharjit yes maybe now maybe I'll say a little more so yeah the Moharjit is originally referred to at least in terms of partition history they would refer to the people who migrated from mostly northern provinces of India to Pakistan so newly formed Pakistan so they were called immigrants I think the term roughly translates in English as immigrant so yeah they still I think they still are I mean so one of the points of contestation is the term Moharjit and why should they still be called immigrant even if they've been living there for more than 50 years so there is that sense of hostility that they experience because they still looked as outsiders who weren't originally in Pakistan they migrated from India like from the northern parts of India of Bengali yeah the Bengali people from Bangladesh they have referred yeah I mean I don't think the term exactly existed before their migration so after they migrated to Pakistan he starts to be the northern president after they migrated they were sort of labeled as immigrant as much history books or national museums perhaps in India or Pakistan approached this particular topic is it still something that is it not mentioned is it mentioned is it similar to what she has said it's uh yeah so you give that perspective to them it we definitely had a perspective of a bit but an Indian perspective we weren't in fact Pakistan's separation from Bangladesh wasn't talked about that but in fact I think the Indian army forces sort of intervened and I think there was there was a conflict between Pakistan and India over Bangladesh about Bangladesh succession so again the Indian army would have been painted as heroes for you know liberating Bangladesh from Pakistan and that's pretty much the narrative we've been given in books in books yeah so we did study about in history partition is definitely British colonialism and partition these two events are directly related and yeah it is talked about but Pakistan's side is ignored that aspect all of that is ignored but however I think when you study literature you sort of tend to like even if you're studying in in an Indian university you can I mean you don't really stick with one perspective at least that's how most of us learned that okay there was another perspective to the story so yeah again most of us were not even aware of at least my generation wasn't even aware of the separation from of Bangladesh and Pakistan and how traumatizing it was I think that's just such a name and I feel it is essential to for healing you have to acknowledge what happened and you have to find okay yeah because it's not spoken about this is something I think most of us not in reading yeah just getting back to the muhajir muhajir Shavenda I think this is what struck struck you struck you odd it's a highly religious term yeah and then the English term immigrant doesn't doesn't capture this religious meaning of going from an abode of not being liked to an abode where you can freely yeah pursue your religion so I think this connotation is is very important to for those people who who move to Pakistan yeah which it cannot be grasped by immigrant it's what in the normal itself I think some of the characters themselves are proud of the term hajir because of the connotation where proper harm becomes their migration but but that term sort of becomes a negative term they're constantly it's used as a term playing with anything with someone so present them as an outsider so then becomes a term of contestation yeah so final question or comment over there thank you thanks for your talks I want to return to happening after a second this relates I'm sure I'm looking forward the last top two that might relate the the idea right the partition partition is a spatial term right I mean it's it's dividing by maps and colonization as well as I'll draw the abstract line but maps that right that that simplify and just simplify that that simple line so that's the last um do you and here in both talks talking about the novel the especially that that last scene um with or the map the last mapping you talked about with the internet mapping and the idea of using a map to identify it seems very aligned with you know what recent turning deep mapping right at that as a method to reform maps as a way to acknowledge culture experience echo genre page right and building in that way do you see the novel then as trying to rehabilitate the potential for mapping as a non-violent thing right as a non-obstracting mode um and rather return it right give it some potential to knowledge on complexity right to acknowledge stories if that's so can those maps exist outside of the novel itself right if it's the narrative necessary to make meanings to those maps can a map ever do the thing on deep map right can it do the thing that it wants to do without a whole narrative associated with it um um not the the the the the narrative is about mapping and the title itself cartography with um with a k but she explains and in the narrator explains the use of the k in the narrative and can you I shouldn't see it's very much um or or right wrote her her novel in a highly cautious way and she did the not only search and she read many many books about mapping and her project is definitely to to see this question of mapping and map making actually and to probe the idea of place and space this is this is one of of of the points she wants to to explain in her narrative and she makes a big difference between this cold way of mapping I mean any cartography would do and cartography which um reverberates the spirit of the place and they did the file and the book ends with a type of a new cartography this is an interactive cartography a map on the internet which then mixes mapping and storytelling so part of the question I mean what is the role of mapping here um so I I think it's quite captured what what she wanted to know and we have to continue to the next presentation if you if you're fine that we make a full stop at this at this point thank you thank you very much yeah thanks for this intense discussion we turn to our third speaker yes please Soledad Morandeira de Paz a Spanish scholar a scholar and a phd student at the moment in Spain at uh Soledad is working on Mapa Mundi Alter Mundus representations of the world in the middle in the middle ages so she's turning we're turning our focus from literature on maps over literature about maps to maps themselves Soledad got her master degree from the same university but her bachelor degree from a university in Rio de Janeiro which I haven't known but uh yeah sounded quite interesting to me to go to Brazil for studying a BA Soledad is speaking today as I said on on mapping her the title is faith mapping iconography of beliefs in medieval cartography the florist thank you very much from the minds of all I want to congratulate my brilliant poet Karen Dries and Iquita Pinto I am agreed with with the two of them because map acts uh as an open as a story and map is a a story for them and medieval maps as all the maps do much more than show physical details of the world they offer a perspective on how societies view themselves on how the others were absolutely the intention of this paper is to present the multiple levels that make me need for mapping the complex architecture of great significance to the study of cultural evidence in the in the ages Christianity and Islamism are two paradigms not only at the religious and moral level but also at the scientific one concerning the origins of the world and its representation meant no longer explains the earth basic on reason and experience but as a believer he feels drawn to following the guidance indicated by the holy test sometimes investigations gives way to fantasy and cartography changes into a wealth of symbols not easy to interpret Christianity breaks off with classical traditions and as we can see on the OT or this Terrarium maps at the Beatos maps also there is a phase of absolute simplification until the nautical invasive charts calling Porto Lani in the other hand Islamism showing a weak influence for the beginning whose people science, culture and libraries now falling falling under the domain of the former we would like to focus on the Catalan Atlas from and the nautical parts from the Major Khan School of Cartography in order to show through analysis of its image how the different religions were understood in the in the West on these maps there is a space allocated for Christianity Islam and even the Indian religions it is important remark the fact that most of the Major Khan School cartographers where you is converted to Christianity so as we can see on maps the personal experiences of the cartographers seem also revealing we have here some examples from a Philateli a very interesting interesting work I'm very keen on this art and we have a stamp a catch stamp from Sephardic Philateli the other one is from Senegal and the other from Spain they have also in common the Catalan Atlas for Major Khan School of Cartographers here we have some marvelous maps from New Zealand Civilization the work appears from our point of view upside down a time when north was south and south was north the worst Mecca Mecca was the in Biculus Mundi the axis the center of the world we tend to take many themes for granted today we have such freedom to travel around the world so much so that we can we tend to travel far and wide without ever considering the immense contributions others have made for our convenience great scholars from New Zealand Civilization indeed challenge the world upside down with the maps not just metaphorical but world maps were literally upside down with south depicted at the top and we have some examples from Alistahi from 10th century even how called 16th century Al-Barkhi 9th century Kashgar sorry for my my pronunciation from 11th century the they are all are are maps with south on top and we have here a brilliant sample from a cartographer Al Idlisi from the 12th century he was born in Senta studied at Cordoba in Spain and he works for the Norman cart of Palermo even well she he traveled around Morocco France Spain and even visited England his description of western Europe is quite accurate and Italy the here we have a an ISM map but it is it is also a diagram a more simple but we can see the south of on top the the center the axis Mundi is a Mecca we are more accustomed to see the maps like this so this is how this place is La Mecca another one as is another interpretation from our point of view in Mecca on the center of the war and we can see it's very accurate for that time but he also has this this wonderful map the treatment of the Balkans as for the rest of Europe for most of the Islamic world based on the writings of others he he used it the system of cylindrical projection of the earth surface called it in the 15th century Mercator projection the Flemish Gerard Mercator we have another example of a map with the south place it in the north is the chart Borgia from the 15th century is anonymous and is in the Vatican a library and the other one is the Macamundi of Fremauro 15th century in the Bibliotheca Nazionale Marziana the Venice south is on top I I would like to focus on Saint Isidore from Sevilla etymologies a from the six six century in the they are samples of Oriental maps because orient is on top because is east and the the sun rises in orient I I know orient nowadays is is not very correct work or politically but at the ancient times women they say a phrase ex Oriente looks the light comes from orient from east and nowadays we have the expression oriented maps I I am oriented I am disoriented and so on and this one ah ah it's a it's a very interesting representation because they are three parts of the world adjusted to the writings of the Greeks and women's but also a the the holy test and because after the deluge the the great fluid Noah made another partition of the of the parts of the world between his the three songs same come and Jaffet Jaffet has Europe come Africa and same Asia and until today we we we call it the Semitic languages to the languages from Asia it is calling all these terrarium of the map because of the all is the is the sea the oceanus and the she ah here is the Mediterranean sea and a college in a collage collage a kind of collage in the river nine sea of a soft and a other Seema masses we have here the one example from the Beatus of Burpo the Osma Beatus are a very special books also call it a commentary on the Apocalypse of St. John it's from the 10th century a this type of book also contains always contain Mata Mundi and the other one was is the Westminster Salter in the British Library from the 12th century they are type of Encyclopedia the they were once another example of Isidorean map from the 12th century and it's very tiny 20 centimeters it's anonymous and it's in Munich in the Badirish is that that's a bibliotheque and the the other one is the here for map from the 13th century to to a mattress per two meters another are oriented with east on top we have here an example of Porto Portolano is a shark or cart of a Angelino Dulce from the 13th century and shows for example the hash or the pilgrimage to make up there are some details as the red sea painted on red and a small tiny little path where the the people of Israel they cross it by a when when when Moses opens the the waters we have also most Sinai where Moses received the tablets of the covenant the city of Jerusalem and the Holy Sepulchre also the hash or Muslim pilgrimage and the worship of the alcohol of metal with nine heads and nine hands in the lands of India and the the details the red sea painted and red the and when the the queen of Saba Mansa Musa or Rex Mali the king of Mali and he's a he's a Mecca the city of Mecca and here the Abrajan and Yafuda Cresques from the 14th century King Juan the first of Aragon gave this precious Atlas as a gift of as a present to his cousin Carlos the fourth of France the and he's a pergamin six vellum fixed of their booth and Abrajan and Yafuda were Jewish converted to Christianity and we have here some details for example the the present a half moon tweet in order to identify some cities or something like this or Granada with a banner with Arabic characters we have also Christian cities Hebraic cities the here with the the David star and a mistake kind of misunderstood because they represent a crudger in a in a move that is is very close to how Christian pray but these kind of mistakes between the Christian and the right people is very common and in the other image we have Mansa Mosa the richest man in the in the in the world history it was called the king of kings it was the emperor of the great empire of Mali in the 13th century the lion of Mali he took the empire of Mali to his feet and why his popularity because he made his pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324 with a procession of 60,000 men 12,000 servants who each carried four pounds of gold bars herald dressy in silks who bought gold staffs organized ship horses and had me 100 bags he gave a way gold to the poor along his route gave gold to all the cities he passed he passed by on his way to Mecca including Cairo and Medina he built a new mosque every Friday in any city he passed he passed it back and it was documented but several a I I I am is he passed writers writers along the route but this generosity however devastated the economy of the region the sudden influx of gold devaluated the metal for decades prices on books and wears richly inflated the only time reported in history that one single man in man directly controlling the price of gold in Mediterranean another Portolani and also the same things the a manza manza musa here with a with a coin of of gold the Queen of Saba other sovereigns and and kings this is a messiah of Vila de estes or a another cartographer cartographer from my local and school and another one and a always the same mistake representing a Saba sound praying so was Mecca in a Christian way of prayer and a in a a manza musa in the other scene this one is is the same mistake from the Georgia map with a city of Mecca and and the the moves of these two people is is Christian not Muslim and in the other scenes we have a a one a one illustration from the the travels of Marco Polo in the 13th century and the the the book of wonders and a it is said that this one the above is from a Atlas catalan a Atlas catalan from the my local school of cartographers and the other one from a Marvin's book of Marco Polo and it is said that a the this iteration about the incineration of courts in in Asia and it is said on a Marco Polo's book on the proteins of Camul the people are all idolaters and have a peculiar language they are the people who takes themes very easily for they mind nothing but playing and singing and dancing and enjoying themselves a when they when they fight the corpse of the of the dead people as we can see in the two images this one in the center is from Messia de Villadesta's Portolani worshipping of the idol of metal with nine heads and nine hands but their representation is very simple and is it's very similar to Beatus illustrations in Luminuras from the dream of Navo Coloso of the idol we have here another another legend from a Atlas Catalan we have the great serpents of God and Magog which appears in the times of Antichrist with a lot of people and and the the others is a picture from the Uffizi Gallery the adoration of the Meiji of the Magicians by Lorenzo di Monaco and it is it is represented the three wise men with many people that address it and look it like like the people following the Antichrist with a banner with the Scorpion as a symbol of the the view another another part of the Atlas Catalan with the domains of the Antichrist and it represents the biblical characters of God and Magog because they have a very important place in the cartography of the Middle Ages not only did these characters exist as reality as realities in the Viennepalm because the they also constitute a dark and ever present truth to safety and welfare of of the Christian world according to Aeticus of Istria a narrator of Red Days Gogh and Magogh and 22 nations of Abel Men were driving by Alexander the Great back to the very shores of the northern Ossia then they then they were impressionate on a peninsula behind the Castian gates and a world of island erected with divine aim by Alexander and we have the world as a kind of mon chain and this one is a very modern map is the first that represent America is the a chart or card card of Juan de la Cosa he traveled with Christopher Columbus in the second travel and is very modern and is a Portolani also but he also represent him as in the middle in the middle ages as the red sea painted on on red the three three white men riding riding in a horse coming from Orient and also the people of Gogh and Magogh in northern Siberia is another detail and they are represented at a Kino sepholons people with dog headed and the other one is a Blemia a who is also an andropophamus a carnival and is eating for finish we finish with with Alidrissi because is a kind of map very geographic but he also contains the wall that erected by Alexander the great for divide the people from Gogh and Magogh is the only consistent with fantasy in this map and I will I would like to finish with with the quote from Haqim Sanay from Afghanistan of Afghanistan in the the 11th century and he said at his door what is the difference between Muslim and Christian? he talks and he tea at his door all we are seekers and he this hope thank you very much thank you Solidat for showing us this one of these wonderful maps and particularly focus on their presentation of Mecca on some of them most of them please let me start with one comment what you said is we are speaking about symbols right we're speaking about blue lines that we interpret as lakes or as rivers or whatever so if a map designer wants to symbolize praying for his medieval European latin audience I guess he has to use the imagery the audience will understand if he if he draws a Muslim praying and he bent with 90 degree angle for example the reader wouldn't understand the gesture so he draws the the Muslim praying in Mecca like a Christian prayer the reader knows and I guess it's you can call it wrong factually wrong but it is is due to the to the recipient and to the symbol symbolized language of the whole matter we have here just as a comment thank you thank you very much are there further questions or comments yes one two three please go please start here okay what I was wondering if there's anything comparable figures should be the they shine up to then be connected to other events through I don't know ethnographic sign is there any from the plot that is developed to have the map or in some specific map I think the given maps especially on Christian dome they work with the autoritas with the heritage from from the ancient times a a Briggs Roman where sounds like a erodotus or a straddle or even a in that is astuteness please use the orf and and so on and the and and they pick up all that heritage and the and also they they make a kind of a collage with the story tellings from from travelers like Marco Polo Jan de Pianca being Jan de Mandeville for example and and they are present that information to the maps but a coexist coexist everything there and obviously the the the peripherics the boundaries there are places for for fantasy for fabulous races for monsters dragons and things like that but is an amalgamate in a kind of way see the way of speaking but it's very very different in in the in the museum maps that's where it's simple question that I'm going to be in the when we're dealing with part of what I think and historical information related to the pre-historic times we actually engage with what is would be classified as beyond history the things we have been beyond history we are incorporating in our consciousness of the present I think that both is a big challenge for the sciences or even for the solar sciences because when we're trying something that was that is other in the the past in which nothing was available we are simply trying our own instead of imagination the the the minus points of depth sort of exercise is that we are incorporating this inaccuracy into things which are will be defined as accurate so we have to have a failure limit of what is scientific way and what is unscientific way means what is a mythological or might seem to be not a logical cannot be intertwined with what is to be categorized as beyond history so this is this question and this question might have relevance in all the cartography accessible we do find it is the opportunity or the reason of other denomination of the world this is the number one number two is two is actually complimented to you for bringing to us a so nice slides of the Mayutani school of cartography which held that you used to me and find out so many stages of connectivity between east and west thank you very much thank you very much for your comments thank you thank you but what what the first question the first one the question and the the first one Ali I agree with you because a I mean at the very first site a we think how a this this kind of maps are naive are ingenious they are very simple but the people in in that ages doesn't travel with with a with a map in their hands as today and they they were representing especially with a Christian maps the salvation of the soul and they must they needed to know where Jerusalem is or in music maps work like is a place in flamica and in orient places in the east east paradise in christian christian maps and is is a is a a kind of a to for for a think a about salvation because they are no no in no thinking about longitude latitude and things like that they are thinking the life in this in this earth is is a a female a female a female a female but a in the other world is eternal and I have I have three speakers now on the list due for you're the first but due for time reasons I would close the speakers list if there isn't someone objecting no so we take the three speakers yes please well mind that they comment in a very simple question first of all very greatly for you reporting on this map the wall of George and by George in on the greasy map I think there is a a narrative that goes there because you see a Patrick and hopefully he did later in them and then I and also another comment I think what you exactly what you do with the class I show them I don't want to assist mad person and I fit it upside down and you can see where you're of it and that needs my question I know I I did know about Eric cartographers placing the south at the top of that we see here what I didn't know and perhaps you can answer this on the use of that Europeans tended to do that for several centuries after saying the expulsion of the Muslim she was saying from Europe in the war in the war so how long was it that Europeans tended to represent in their the the sort of Arab cartographers perspective of the war of the war of the war of the war of the war of the war in in the medieval times you know students was it every kind of maps and we have oriented maps as well as south on top map and we we have the the Klamauro sample and is the it's from the 15th century it's isn't at the gates of the Renaissance so this this this wonderful map and in this map there is no place for fabulous races monsters anything it's only geography and and the the different kind of ships ships navigating in the in the in the sea also and it is very very curious because is the first map that we present the paradise in another place but out of this of this world and it's from the 15th century yes please gentlemen over there I'm just I'm just curious because at least of course produced he's a Muslim producing his his his maps for Christian king and how how that did that work I mean any consideration of you know the same versus Islam you know not that versus the rest of the world because for example in in in Spain in Spain during several times in the Middle Ages the three cultures like New Zealand and Christians coexist and in peace and kings as Alfonso the 10th also called the wise he founded the translation school in Toledo and and we know the Arabian works from scientifics cartographers and so on because of this as well as a place like chess music and many other works from New Zealand civilization in Spain find the question Christian and thinking about the ancient maps that how that was in Mariana and there you can see that there's constant development so to current theory it's quite debated but I really believe in it there is first map in the first century DC and it goes up to the fourth of 15th century AD and this is all in one map it's constant constantly constantly being reworked added getting a new shape and you see any kind of development trends being based on the time and the second part do you see any cultural borders of belief and maybe a depiction of it where can you see Muslim where can you see Christians and how do they depict borders if they are if they are the victors would you repeat the tabula putting it yeah and it is very very very thin and I'm interested in your your question because for example a literacy map is very very similar to tabula a printing area but it's a the tabula printing it was discovered in the medieval times but it was a Roman map and it was almost destroyed and the Christian monks they copy that map and and I think scholars said that they incorporate more geographical knowings but it it is true that it's very similar to a literacy map and maybe in in maybe there are they were remains of the Roman empire that were destroyed with the time I don't know and the other one the other question is about boundaries and limits you know yeah yeah the key so on the radio maps it's the other boundaries where you will find the Christians for instance and how is it depicted and the other way around on Christian maps you have shown us the depiction of makeup on a water map but is there any part of boundary described or depicted where it says up to here you can find Christians and then at this point you have to deal with the non-Muslims for instance and how is it depicted I think for example the the sample of of God and my God is the same for for a new links and Christians because then the the holy bible talks about about God God and my God and also the Quran and the holy test they share the same legend for another questions I think I don't know I can't think in in another sample of the the same legend I'll help you with my function as a moderator of this panel because time is up quite quite you're quite overtime thanks no not there were important questions but thanks to you for standing all these questions and comments and thanks to all speakers for their wonderful presentations and of course the engage discussions and questions from the audience so with this I'm closing the panel and hand over the word to the organizers for an announcement of what's coming next thanks again