 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Catherine Norr. Today, my guests are Simon Stoth and Marcel Siena of Wolfpack Management. Our topic is the future of eSports and gaming venues. Welcome gentlemen. Thank you for having us. All right, you know, I know you're, it's very late there in Germany and Malta. Thank you very much for staying up to be live, to appear live on our show. So, Simon, what is Wolfpack Management? So Wolfpack Management is a consultancy firm that specializes in eSports to give us or to give you a little bit of a perspective how Wolfpack Management started. Marcel and I have known each other for quite a long time now. We were both passionate gamers, you could say, but both of us specialized in business. Marcel has a lot of business experience. I have a little bit more of an eSports experience as well, because I played in the University League in Germany. And so I was basically the first guy that Marcel called when he stumbled upon the business idea of doing a consultancy in eSports. And for what we do is we actually have a wide variety of client buckets, you could say, mainly it is about professionalizing the eSports industry itself, because I mean, as most people that are involved in eSports, we are very passionate about eSports. And we think that eSports is by far not where it could be or should be compared to traditional sports, for example. And the second part of the business idea is because eSports is quite unique, so to say, it is very, very hard to navigate for people from outside of the industry. So we also help people, companies mainly from outside the industry to navigate the field. Marcel, what is your role in the company? Yeah, I mean, we are co-founders, Simon and I. I have a little bit more of an administrative role as well, because we have both entities in Estonia, which is remotely administered and managed as well here in Malta. And in Malta, mainly I take care of the day-to-day administrative tasks and being engaged with the government and the different entities here. But overall, we are on the same page and have the same level of responsibilities towards clients. That's the important part, really. You know, I actually have been to Estonia and Frankfurt, but I haven't been to Malta. You're more than welcome to drop by any time. I actually did have a plan to go to Malta, but that didn't work a few years ago. And for the viewers, Estonia is near Russia and Finland. And so what is the eSports scene like in Europe, either one of you? Well, the eSports scene in Europe, that's a good question. eSports is just such an international thing. The first thing that comes to mind, of course, are the organizations and the teams. So especially in Counter Strike, I would say the eSports scene was always pretty big. If I have to think about unique things in eSports in Europe, I would definitely have to mention the regional eSports organizations in the UK that always impressed me a lot by just how engaged the fans are to their local teams, basically. That's interesting. So let me ask you, Marcel, what are eSports like in Malta? In Malta, I mean, this country really lives from the international flair and engaging internationally. The island is quite small, half a million people live here. One interesting fact, for example, is that over the course of a year, I think around 2.5, 2.7 million tourists come, like unique visitors come to Malta. So that's very special. And in the summer, the island blows from half a million to 1.5 million. So you have one third are actual local people, and then it blows up to 1.5 million. It's really important for the island to pull and attract a lot of tourists and to offer a lot of entertainment and leisure time activities. And therefore, eSports and gaming just makes a lot of sense for Malta. And we're happy to be here. We have a big part. We are very close to the government and to some of the local eSports and gaming entities. We have a big part in bringing international stakeholders here and also helping professionalize and grow the both the government actually and also the other teams and the eSports organizations that are here. Well, you know, I have to say that Hawaii is kind of we have some of the similar situation as Malta being an island and being a tourist destination. However, we really don't have as much eSports and gaming here as you probably do. But our population is probably for Oahu, the island that I'm on is about double that. So how long has your business been in going on, Simon? That really depends on what you want to count. So from the start of us thinking about the whole project, I would say it's roughly one and a half years, not exactly, but pretty much. I think we started around January, February, discussing the project last year, so 2020, right when COVID was about to start. Of course, COVID also heavily influenced our the planning for our business. And as you may have noticed with the Estonian planning and with Malta, that we are not exactly set on a central hub where we mainly act around. So we are very international. All of our team members work from home. And yeah, in the times of COVID, that does out a lot that we approach the business this way. But to come back to your question to actually we actually formalized our company roughly a year ago. So it took us a little bit because we needed the e-residency it's called for Estonia to open up the business roughly a year and full business mode. So of course we had some we had some stuff that we needed to do once we formalized the company, but full business mode, including working for clients was pretty much at the start of 2021. Well, you know, a lot of e-sports businesses started around the beginning of the pandemic. So it's kind of interesting that you're one of them. So, you know, the big question we have here today is you know, we're working remotely. People are playing games remotely, doing e-sports competitions remotely, do infrastructure projects? Are they important where we're already using the Internet and we're doing remote gaming and in e-sports? Oh, yeah, I would say they are vastly important. So I mean, for one, if you compare it with the traditional sports, we already have some e-sports venues that show, for example, the world championships in League of Legends and Dota, Counter-Strike pulls huge crowds of live viewers, not online, but actually in the offline presence. That is just one piece of the offline cake, so to say, of the infrastructures or what infrastructures can provide. Of course, tourism is a big point. You will see that there will be more e-sports and gaming venues with a lot of different offerings for people who, for example, can't afford the high end computer, can't afford the sim racing equipment. Marcel will talk a little bit more in-depth about all of the the various phases that infrastructures can take in regards of the offering. But lastly, I would also say a local community. So what I experienced with e-sports as a university contender for the University e-sports league in Germany is that having a localized community sharing the same hobby, sharing the same interest is a powerful, powerful thing. And of course, while gaming, I've made a lot of friends online, but having friends offline that you can actually meet, that you can do public viewings of championships together with, let's just go outside and have a beer together, meet in the nature. I mean, gaming is still seen as such a nothing where people don't leave the house that often. But I had a lot of fun actually meeting people and, you know, going out with them. Enjoying a nice dinner in a restaurant or having a drink. It's it's a completely different experience and one that is definitely underestimated in my opinion. OK, let's shift to you, Marcel, I'll let you expand on that. Yeah, so I mean, I think a lot of people have seen with a pandemic, unfortunately speaking, that social contact can can be virtual. But there's a piece missing for everyone. I think that hasn't been seeing a lot of friends or family in the last few months. And that one is the very same for eSports and gaming. A lot of the interactions, a lot of even if you compete, there's different things that happen when you are actually offline, either with a crowd or face to face kind of with your opponents and with your teammates. It's just a completely different ball game. And these aspects are certainly something that is super important to experience. And it helps both on the on the education side, be it with mentors, be it with trainers, coaches. But it also helps to bond with other people. Some of the fair play things can actually only be really understood when you are next to each other and shake hands before and after matches. This is something we see in basically all traditional sports. And I think in the next few decades, maybe even just a few years, we will certainly close in with eSports and virtual sports compared to traditional variants. You know, I think people are very anxious to get to join together and play together and and essentially, you know, go to those venues because we haven't been able to. So I think that may create more of a demand for those venues. And so let's talk about projects that you're working on, Marcel. Yes, so we have prepared a few pictures specifically about a venue here in Malta that is being built up. I will explain picture by picture a little bit what you see, just so you can get an impression on what kind of things are happening both in Malta, but in terms of infrastructure stuff. And I think what's really cool about seeing these pictures is seeing it being built up in the process of creating something because behind the scenes kind of stuff is very rare. And most of the time you either see drafted new prints or you see the finished venue. So having a little bit of behind the scenes stuff, I think is super valuable. And maybe it is the first time for some of you to actually see some of these things. So starting off with the first picture, this is really the gate to something called Monte Cristo Estate here, Malta, right next to the airport. As I said, tourism will be a big piece on how visitors will come and experience these kind of events in Malta. So it will be, of course, locals. But as I mentioned before, locals are very limited in their numbers and of course the youth piece as well. So we expect a lot of international visitors to come. And since it's directly next to the airport, this is very interesting even to arrive just for a few days and really with intent to mainly spend time on the eSports complex that is being built here. And then what is this picture show? So this is actually the plaza where you arrive. There are different buildings. The eSports complex is only a part similar to what you have. You told us, of course, talking a little bit prior that you were at the HyperX Arena in Las Vegas. The arenas are most of the time just a small part of the overall venue, sometimes your hotels, restaurants, theatres, these kind of entertainment pieces are usually somehow connected or in the same overall infrastructure and the very same thing here with a multi-state where there are a few restaurants, the main one you can see here. There are even sometimes small car shows out here at the plaza. So people would present new cars or just get together outside and talk to each other. As Simon has said, gaming is of course a big piece of what will happen but it's important to gather outside, take a walk and just have some snacks and get together at different places around these kind of venues. Sure, and it seems like a lot of venues all over the world are multi-use venues where they have restaurants, they have gaming facilities, these facilities for music and concerts and other activities. One that comes to mind is in London. The name escapes me right now, but it has everything like museums and all sorts of things. It was one of the venues for the Olympics. So then let's move through your pictures. Let's look at the game. Yes, so this is the entrance, by the way, to the specific building where the esports complex is being built. I mean, what is important to know is you either have finished buildings where you move your esports venue in and the other option is to completely build something from scratch which is currently happening, for example, in Toronto. With over, I think, 4,000 seats for esports entertainment. I mean, it's a huge venue of 30,000 square feet completely. We have seen one that is actually bigger, but that's definitely one on the bigger side of things. And we are excited that actually buildings are completely dedicated and planned out just for the purpose of esports and related entertainment. Sure. And Simon, can you take us inside of that venue? Oh, for sure. So here on the next few pictures, you will see the SimRacing a little bit closer to World Pro Racing, of course, focusing mainly on SimRacing for now, but they also have plans to expand beyond the SimRacing and into other esports titles, gaming titles as well. A very, very beautiful setup here in this picture. You can see them in the process of setting up the SimRacing equipment. You can see a lot. There's definitely a lot of high-tech equipment, and the guys put a lot of love inside this project. I'm definitely excited to see how it turns out when it's completely finished. Yeah, we're excited to have you there, Catherine. You can show your round. I know. So, Marcel, what projects should people keep their eyes open for? I know one thing you mentioned Toronto, and another I think Shanghai. Yeah, so of course, Asia, and I have to say the Middle East, they really put in money into these kind of infrastructure projects. Of course, we have a little bit outside knowledge left and right beyond the esports and gaming world. To be honest, a lot of the esports investments tie to general infrastructure investments. So what we see is that Asia and the Middle East, they just invest huge amounts of money into general infrastructure, whereas a lot of this stuff is mostly built out in Europe and North America. So mostly it's really maintaining and maybe marginal upgrading of things or installing, as I said, some of the esports capabilities into existing stuff. But yeah, for example, Saudi Arabia has a complete sports city that is being built within the next three years, including a Formula One track and a football outdoor stadium. And part of it will definitely be also esports and some of these hybrid games as well. So games where, yes, they are digitally based, but you have a physical component. So something like there's a digital baseball, for example, and then of course, people might play just dance at home, these kinds of games where there's definitely more needed than good hand-eye coordination and hand movement. Sure, and I sure hope that Aloha Stadium in Hawaii that we end up having an esports venue in there. I know that they're talking about it. So Simon, what do you think the future of esports infrastructure projects will look like? I mean Marcel has already teased it a little bit. I definitely think that especially the Middle East will play a big part. So the way I see it in terms of infrastructure projects, historically, Europe has mostly been more on demand, I would say. So for example, people see a lot of demand for an esports stadium. So they will build an esports stadium or as Marcel has said, rent or buy a building that can house an esports stadium. Americans usually take money in their hands to do a big project when they can and when they are a little bit more, I wouldn't say aggressive, but a little bit more experimental. The Asian region definitely has a lot more publicity for esports. They have more demand. Esports is part of their being in some countries, at least. For example, I've been to Korea and I will also relocate to Korea as well later this year. And Korea has a ton of these so-called PC banks, which are basically, I wouldn't call them venues, but it's almost like cool office spaces where you can play video games and you can order food to your table. So everything is focused around video games. You don't even have to get up to get food, for example. Yeah. And finally, of course, the Middle East. I've mentioned tourism before, and I think tourism will be a big, big, big driver for a lot of these projects. And the Middle East has historically been very good at not waiting for the demand of tourists to have these big venues, these big infrastructure projects, these hotels. But they've actually taken the money into their hands and built these big, very ambitious, very cool projects and created their own demand by doing that. And I think definitely the other regions need to be on the lookout to what the Middle Eastern guys are planning. Oh, that's terrific. So Marcel, how can Wolfpack Management help in infrastructure projects? Yeah, so we divided up into three pieces. The first one, of course, is the very early stage things, right? You would start with something like a feasibility study. Does it make sense? What exactly are we looking for? Is it built? Or is it actually just moving in somewhere? What exactly do we need? Is it a simracing part? Or do we want something for streamers in there? Do we want to house professional teams? So the whole planning phase and feasibility, is it a financially viable endeavor or not? And tied to that, definitely you would also have a business plan that really ties not only the venue, but everything around esports and gaming as an activity into that plan. And from there, of course, you would then look certainly for investors and finalize the interior and the electronics into a certain place to then make it ready for the actual operational part. So that's the first part. For the second one, it's really about the monetization. Of course, after you build it, hopefully a little bit earlier. But certainly when it's operational, you need to start thinking about how to make it sustainably viable as a financial endeavor and also know how to utilize the area, learn across. While you're using it, of course, you need to learn what people are after who is coming in. And how you could further develop it while it's operational. So what we can do there is search for sponsors and partners for an operational infrastructure piece or venue. And then look at the marketing and the ongoing data so you can really improve what's happening in there. And then one important part in that is also to look at the use and utilization. Some of the areas might be in high demand, some in lower demand. And then you have to figure out, okay, how can we maximize the utilization? If you have that under control, then actually it's very easy to forecast what the kind of returns are possible in this kind of venue. I mean, that can always happen something like COVID or other constraints. But in a normal run mode, you have certainly more insurance in your income compared to some other esports projects if you get the utilization piece right. And then the third piece is actually not so much on the brick and mortar stuff. So not on the venue as a physical monument. It's more about what is added to it, to come full circle. So it's about the social structure. It's about talent development. And it's about the technology that you can use in such a venue. So for example, you would need to set up something for health and performance. I think that's super important because a lot of the things cannot be taught or really understood if you just do it remotely. So having a good health and performance program at an onsite location, especially when it has regional pull and significance. I think that's super important. The second thing almost tying into it is that you actually want to have a talent program and training program for the people that come there, be it for people who do it for a hobby, even they want to improve, but of course for the ones that really can make it to the top. And that's not only pro players, that streamers as well or people behind the scenes. So it can be producers, can be shoutcasters. A lot of times we only think about the pro players, but actually if you make it more broad, it has a much, much bigger societal value in terms of education and job prospects and careers. So that's why it's important to include these things. I mean, you could go as wild as doing an incubator for independent game developers. All of this is possible if you do it correctly and have the right partners on your side. Okay, well, you've provided so much good information and I know that with your expertise on eSports, you're the ones to go to. So Simon, how can people find... People can find us fairly easily either on LinkedIn, Simon Stotz and Marcel Sehmer. Or you can find us via our homepage wolfpack.management. Terrific, all right. Thank you, gentlemen. And thank you to our viewers. Make sure you tune in. Thank you so much. My guest next week will be Sehmer and Castor Robert Rose. See you then. Thank you for having us. Bye, everyone.