 info site. We'll just make sure that you all have access to this and others have it as well. But thank you first of all everyone for attending this morning. I know we're up against a 4-H webinar at the same time today and so I really appreciate that you've all jumped on. Many of you are familiar with Webinar Wednesday. We do this once a month in regards to just a variety of programming needs, issues kind of a lot of times around our internal staff development needs and today it's my pleasure to introduce a colleague from the University of Minnesota Extension, Scott Chaston. Scott has, I've known Scott for a number of years. He is a great person to know because he is a strong evaluator. He is an evaluation and a research specialist for the Center for Community Vitality with the University of Minnesota Extension and I just always am so appreciative of his knowledge, his ease in explaining these things to us and I know the great work that he does over in Minnesota with the specialists and agents there, educators, as well as across the nation. Scott's just kind of a really well known evaluation specialist across the nation in Extension so I always am appreciative of his friendship, his collegiality and especially the fact that he's coming here today to North Dakota via a webinar to share with us the but for attribution principle, which is something I think we all need to be more aware of as we do evaluation, as we think about how we're showing program impacts. So the chat box is open. If anyone has questions I'm going to try to watch for those Scott. You can surely see them as well but we're going to have you roll through this. We have about an hour so please think about questions you want to ask Scott in regards to this as well and I hope Scott that you'll share with us some of the literature you've written on this. I know there's some good stuff out there too so there's other resources that people can follow up with. All right, thank you and we'll let go ahead Scott. All right well thanks Lynette. So I'm happy to be here today so I'm going to give you a little bit of an overview of what I'm planning to talk about here during the webinar. A little bit about why it's important to collect indicator data and in general background on the the national community resource and economic development working group that I've been part of and Lynette has been part of for many years and then the specific north central region indicators that each state in the north central region of extension it participates in every year and has since 2010 and then a little more about what we mean by impact and what we mean by this but for rule and then probably the most important part is some tips that I have for collecting this kind of impact information but I have to say that every state has unique ways of doing this and we by no means have it all figured out in Minnesota. This is a very challenging task but we do have some guidance and some things that have worked pretty well for us so and then yeah. I'm sorry to interrupt this is Lynette can you hear me okay? Yes okay so I just want to make one really quick note as I see your overview that the group of people that are on this call are probably not going to be super familiar with the north central indicators they don't all work in community vitality they work in agriculture they work in just just a little heads up so I wanted to give this group a little heads up on that too that what Scott's going to talk about with these indicators or something we've collected kind of in the community and leadership area economic development area but it might not pertain to the rest of you okay I just wanted to throw that out that's helpful I did not realize that so thank you I do I do think that people in other areas of extension may have some indicators that I know youth development for sure does but I so there may be some some regional or national indicators that you're asked to contribute to and if not that part might seem a little irrelevant but the parts of this I promise will be relevant okay so with that I'm going to go on to just a little bit about sort of how this happened and how I came to be involved in this work is that the CRED which is community resource and economic development sort of one of the four major areas of programming and extension across the country that group has some people this working group that I've been part of that has come together for several years to try to figure out how we can tell our story largely because this community resource and economic development is a relatively new and unknown part of extension and so it's more important for us perhaps then for four age which has been around forever and has all this credibility built up over the years it's important for us to sort of build that credibility and understanding of the work that we do in community development so that's part of the context for why this indicator stuff has happened and why we've developed these methods of reporting of the indicators and so Lynette has been on this team we have people from each region of the country and it looks like there's nobody from the southwest but that's it's true there's no one in the southwest but the western region is very large for extension so we have Rebecca and Paul out west but they're in the northwest and we come together on a monthly basis and and really talk about ways to strengthen evaluation and impact measurement in community development extension work the benefits of collecting indicator data and I'll show you what we mean by that if you're not familiar is that it gives these numbers that we can aggregate across states in a region that really are compelling to funders at the state and federal level that that investing in extension specifically community development work is a good investment also the process of collecting impact data can be really helpful for scholarship you can write articles like for journal of extension or other journals in more topical fields that are more practice-oriented journals around the impacts of your work and where you describe the programming and then show the impact with data that makes that can make for a very effective scholarly article and so that's something that we've encouraged people to do and also you can use the evaluation data to feed back into the program to make it a better program especially if you're if you're clever when you collect your evaluation data you can figure out well the program seems to be working for this audience but not not this other audience or or this aspect of the program might be working better than other aspects so you can tease out those lessons while you're also collecting impact data so the north central indicators there's this north central regional center for world development which is at michigan state university way back when this started that center was at iowa state university and for years they've been posting on their website these annual reports and i'm going to show you in a minute a infographic they use to show some of the data but this is aggregated information across the i think 12 states of the north central region and we in the north central are proud of the fact that we've been doing this longer than any other region in the country the southern region has started to do this and two other regions in the country have tried but they don't have enough programming in community development and enough staff to really be able to have good data about impact so this has mostly been north central and the south and and this is an example of this infographic and it might be a little hard for you to see but this is this most recent report from the north central regional center for world development so they have all all this data how many states reported the number of business plans that were developed and how many states reported how many businesses were created and then they give the number and they use cool infographics so you can imagine that when you present this information to either a state legislator or a congressperson when they're not you know too busy trying to keep the government open when they when they have an attention span they are interested in these numbers and can really use them to justify spending money on extension so now i'm going to talk a little bit about impact and what we mean by that and so you i'm going to show a logic model in a minute but impacts are usually the thing that is way at the right side of the logic model where you have your short term and your medium term and your long term outcomes and what we mean by those long term outcomes are impact or also called impacts which are changes in conditions that can be attributed to the extension program so there's a there is a slight nuance between an outcome and an impact and what i like to think of it is the outcomes might have happened even without the extension program an impact is something where you can feel fairly certain that that impact would not have happened if not for the extension program so that's a double negative but that's your but for rule right there it's this idea that this thing wouldn't not would not have happened if not for extension and so that we some people call that attribution and some people prefer to call that contribution i don't really care which term but it is this idea that extension played a pivotal role in something good happening in a community or if you're not in community development in families or for youths or in agriculture or in the natural resource in natural resources but whatever the the field you're in an extension the impact is that difference made by extension in that thing happening so i mentioned logic models so years ago there were several logic models created for buckets of work in community development and extension and i know that other parts youth development family development nutrition education all have logic models for different kinds of programming they do so this is just an example of one where for community economic development work and this one is from this resource that i hope was shared with you it's called the impact indicators tips booklet um if there was a picture of it on the first slide and it's a free resource available on the web um so these impact indicators that are mentioned in here are described more in that tips booklet but i want to just draw your attention here to the long term results that far right column are the things we typically talk about as impact now in the north central region when we like when minnesota reports our data on these indicators some of them are actually not long term impact so some of them are participation indicators it's that third column under participants who are we serving how many people we're serving are we serving underserved populations so those questions are important but they're not impacts yet yet we still want to report them and then some of these things that we report are actually medium term outcomes they're more individual level actions that participants in our programs the things that we want people to do differently as a result of our program so they're more on that individual level this is a nice way to explain this is also from that tips booklet what is the different what is an impact so you could have an indicator in this case we have this indicator the number of community or an organizational policies or plans implemented this is actually one of the indicators we report on in our in our report to the north central region and so looking at the year 2010 you can see that there was a total of 37 community or organizational plans implemented that we know about from our work with communities but 15 of those would have happened anyway so they would have happened even if extension hadn't delivered its program and so the it's that difference between the 15 and the 37 which is 22 there are 22 impacts that you can actually say extension played an important role and those are the ones that you can legitimately report as impacts so I'm going to get to talking a lot about well how do you find that out how do you find out how many impacts you did and how do you figure out which ones you can claim credit for that's the that's the hard stuff but that's really an important part of our follow-up with communities and with stakeholders in communities who are not part of extension to ask them did these things happen and then the next question is the but for question would these things have happened if extension hadn't delivered its program that's kind of the overall gist of this but for rule so I apologize if you're not in community development work but these are the indicators that we report for community development work so a number of business plans developed number of community or organizational plans or policies developed number of I won't read them all but you can see what they are and then the north central regional center gives us these definitions and they say when they give us the definitions up on top general principle attribution someone from outside extension must be willing to state the program produced the result and you get into some questions about you know this attribution thing extension doesn't have to get full credit but it is this but for rule if without extension this thing probably would not have happened and usually people stakeholders people in communities can tell they can tell you yeah I'm I'm pretty darn sure this would not have happened if not if not for extension so here I have a picture of a tort but that's not the kind of tort we're talking about which is the origin of tort law the but for rule comes from tort law from this idea and I can't see my notes here but it's called proximal cause that like in a that a defendant has to show you have to show that the defendant probably caused a financial harm to someone else but it's called proximal cause and and this but for rule is used would this harm have happened if not for the actions of the defendant I guess that's where this all comes from and so the way that this gets interpreted for our use is this definition someone from outside extension is willing to state that the extension program was a crucial factor in producing the program's impact that definition comes from a former colleague of mine George Morse who was our associate he was our senior associate dean he's an economist and he was here in Minnesota for many years and now he's retired but he worked I worked with him to to write that impact indicators tips booklet and so his language is an improvement here was a crucial factor is an improvement over like saying the extension program caused the impact because we know the world is complex there are many other entities out there other than extension who are doing good things with us so the point is that we played an important role that's good enough most people who fund extension would think that's good enough and I'd be interested in dialogue about this later if you think that's not true but my experience is that state legislators county commissioners would all feel like if you say extension played a crucial role that's going to be good enough for them to justify funding us you use the but for rule after a project is done so it's it's retrospective um you're looking back and you so people know the history of what has happened since extension came in and did its programming and they can see what you know what what happened and they can directly connected or not to something extension did and this this notion of someone from outside extension is very important you you can't just rely on your own people to do this you have to ask people from outside otherwise it doesn't really have a lot of credibility so now I'm going to get into talking about some tips and really the rest of the whole the webinar is all about things that we've learned that are good to do to get information on impact so very simply you're going to be following up with community stakeholders there's a variety of methods to do that you can use a survey but you know people don't like to respond to surveys these days so that's tricky I have some tips for that later but you can also just get on the phone and ask people some questions and you want the questions to be these but for types of questions so for example would your group have developed the plan if you hadn't participated in the extension program and so there there's clearly an indicator here about whether plan community plans were developed so in this case would your group have developed that plan if you hadn't participated in this program um but if the if the intervention if the program is more individual level what is one thing you have done differently as a result of the extension program because that would be an impact we do a survey in Minnesota with all of our extension educators in community vitality at the end of the year and we ask them to fill this out it's done in Qualtrics survey software and they go in and they this you fill it out so let's say I'm reporting I know that I had participants who increased their leadership as a result of my program I click on that circle and then it takes me to the next screen which is to describe the progress you are reporting for that indicator so that's where you type in the specifics of what that impact was whether for us it's typically not about individuals even that leadership one we tend to collect that one in in evaluation surveys that we do at the end of the program so uh this case let me go back here let's just say it's the number of the third one number of community or organizational plans or policies that's one that we do a lot and so our educators would go in and then type in the details about the community plans the name of the community and the type of plan and then they would put in the contact person outside of extension that we can call or email to get a little more clarity about the role extension plate and to get that but for attribution would this have happened if not for extension so that's the idea that you collect the information from your own people and then you follow up this seems labor intensive for an extension educator or agent to do so I'm going to talk about some alternatives later on for perhaps using students to collect some of that information so here we have some more tips so for stakeholder follow-up my suggestion is that you first either survey or interview your extension staff people or have that part of their annual reporting and get the names of the community stakeholders and then conduct either an interview or survey with those stakeholders one thing we do is we start with a survey to the stakeholders and if they don't fill out the survey we call them so you know we try to do the easier method but if they if people you know people hate survey so if they don't do the survey we we try calling them and making sure to have questions that are worded in a but for way would this thing have happened if not for extension so what ends up being important is to know to keep track of who are your local program champions or your your people in a community who know about extensions work perhaps have been direct customers of your programs and the thing about these people is is the more you can keep an ongoing relationship with them through newsletters or you know regular mailings of information the more you can keep up with these what we call alumni the more likely they're going to be to respond to your surveys and to give you that information sometimes even just voluntarily sometimes people will say oh my gosh look at this thing just happened in our community and it was directly connected to your extension program so the stronger those relationships post program relationships are the better also when you deliver your program it's important to sort of let people know that you're going to i'm not going to say bother them but you're going to want to go back and check with them to find out how they have used the information extension has provided that that's a really important part of our reporting to our funders and that we need to be able to justify our our existence that we need to show our impact and that you know people need to understand that we will be getting in touch with them even after the program is done and here's where i also really if you have the possibility of connecting with students or connecting them to this valuation process it's great i'm lucky enough where i i get to have a 10 hour a week graduate research assistant every year and that is that student is the one i asked to help me do this follow-up with community stakeholders so i apologize if you're not in community development in community development we often use this community capitals framework to think about some of these but four questions and there are eight community originally were seven but now we think of eight community capitals and so it's a nice way for us to think about you know a strong community has all these capitals or assets going for it and they interact in really important ways but in terms of like civic capital which is like you know people being engaged in civic life we have these questions did and these questions by the way were written for extension like applied research offerings where we do community economics research for communities on their retail trade market or on their on an economic impact of some something that's happening in their community so we we do the report and then we ask them did the study or report influence any community or economic development decisions and that happens to be one of the north central indicators as well and that's you know it's kind of a week but four question but when you get them to describe the influence you can try to put together how you know whether or not the this thing would have happened without extension so you have civic impacts human capital is is you know new knowledge and skills so we have questions about those financial is obviously about increased financial resources available for community development purposes so here we have two questions that get at that then the next slide we have some examples of questions around social capital built capital cultural capital and natural capital if you're not in community development you could think about if there are frameworks in your extension work that would influence these but four questions sort of frame impact frameworks I guess you could think of them I know for example in in nutrition they they sometimes connect with public health and in public health they always talk about policy systems and environmental change so you could think about impacts in each of those three buckets as well and you could have questions about those have there been small p or large p policy changes in your organization connected to extensions program like like one thing you hear a lot about in nutrition education is like a childcare doing a better job making healthy meals for the kids or schools getting rid of their vending machines stuff like that those are impacts that are probably attributable to extension programs so Lynette actually trained me in this method ripple effects mapping but it turns out ripple effects mapping is a wonderful way to collect information on impacts and you can ask either at the end of a ripple mapping session or perhaps afterwards with a key stakeholder which of all these ripple effects that you've talked about could you really say wouldn't have happened without the extension program and we've actually done that and the fun thing about ripple mapping is sometimes you collect impacts that really were not about they would have happened without extension or there's other agencies doing good work that are collaborating with extension and the impacts are more attributable to them but you can go through the ripple map and really figure out what what stuff that that happened in the community really could be attributed to extension and sometimes I even go in the ripple map and change the color of the text to red to show that it's actually an extension impact so I think that's all the slides I had and I envisioned that there might be a lot of questions and I'm intrigued if you're not in community development if there are ways that you could think about using these but for questions and stakeholder follow-up or maybe you're already doing it but you want to do it more systematically so I would encourage you to go in the chat pod which I have open I can see and type in examples I guess my first question is what are you doing right now to collect information on impacts in communities or in families from your work we're out here sorry that's a bad feeling I know we're just thinking okay I got somebody with me we're going to type some more here Scott oh very uh so people working in food systems that that work is so perfect for ripple mapping so Lynette when you did that did you include a discussion of sort of what do we attribute to extension or did you feel like that wasn't necessary or could you go back and do that or would that be useful I actually did because I facilitated it it was just a week ago it was such a cool activity we had a there's a group there's an effort in the Fargo Morehead area it's called first Fridays at B it's it's the first Friday of every month people that are interested in food system work urban agriculture nutrition all kinds of different topic areas around food they attend they go to the they go to the theater B in Morehead it's a theater and it's community theater and so it has just been really fun they've been doing it for a year they've got a different topic area and so they asked extension extension kind of has led this with one of our staff members there's others there's other entities involved but we did ripple map after one year what had happened and we we did one focus group with people that were speakers or presenters at first Fridays at B and one focus group with people that attended only first Fridays at B and I asked them specifically how much they could attribute to extension because they knew the extension people were there too and and they were involved in this but I did ask them specifically that follow-up or kind of probe for that a lot and so that was that was fun to be able to get those responses and there's some programs we've used at Rachelle veteran is on too she just talked about the on a fort well it's the fall forage volunteer impact study but I did some work with her down in a at a reservation site where we did some ripple mapping and that was all because of the extension program we kind of knew that's what it was so we have been learning it took a while but to specifically ask that it's it sometimes feels awkward and in some situations where extension is working in collaboration with other entities it's it's it's actually not appropriate and so it's you know you don't want to say like we did a project our food systems educator one of them did a project in collaboration with a whole bunch of agencies on the east side of Saint Paul and it's around food systems and access to healthy food and you know there were a lot of players and organizations and extension was just one of them so we did a ripple map but it it would have been really gross to sort of say well what did extension do here we could do that later once we had the ripple map we could revisit and say okay here's the things that extension really contributed to but in that large context it would have been kind of like mean or not mean but just inappropriate and made it look like we're the big you know 800 pound gorilla when we really weren't we were just one player right you're right and and only when people would suggest that because extension offered this as one of the programs through this first Friday's that's when we um did this you know and rippled it out but you're right it is weird if it's not just your program you got to be careful with you know how to attribute it so yeah maybe rachel could talk about this 4-H volunteer impact study and that's with sam grant my colleague here in minnesota as well and um so uh that's and i'm i'm imagining that 4-H does have these indicators that they contribute to um nationally so we i think scott you helped sam with look over our evaluation tool um when we do that as a north central region partner our partnership um can you hear me okay yeah yeah and so we wanted to find out specifically whether or not what our volunteers um received um what they felt they received from being part of ndsu extension in the 4-H youth development program what they gave to the program what they felt they were impacting and then the overall public value of um 4-H youth development and them volunteering in their communities and we just received great data back from sam and had about a 30 participation rate in the north central region and our north dakota volunteers were part of that so um now we're figuring out how we want to report that but we specifically asked kind of what you recommended the but for peace they told us because of extension and 4-H youth development they're volunteering for um more boards they feel more confident in communicating effectively they feel like they can run meetings better and then they feel like they've made a huge impact with the youth and the adults that they work with so we have had some really cool data now we're just figuring out we're just analyzing and trying to figure out how to report it all so yeah that's awesome it's exciting okay so michelle typed that i think we do surveys but we don't always ask if it weren't for extension so um yeah that you if there's a way to sort of try to tweak those questions to get at that because it is it is hard um to and like even some of the examples i showed and you know they're not the strongest but four questions um but to to figure out a way to tease out that piece like this this probably wouldn't have happened without extension because that does really sway any any policy maker whether it's at the county level or state level or nationally it's that stuff is more powerful and anyone else have examples of um how they currently get this impact information about their work one thing that's mentioned in that impact indicators tips booklet and i hope you got a link to that but you can just google it also impact indicators tips booklet um because george did a really good job putting that thing together i was a contributor but not the lead person by any means um but he mentions an article from journal of extension where um i think it's called by workman and shear and so over the years there's been a lot of stuff published in that journal evaluation with evaluation data and they analyzed all all through the years how many of those publications featured actual impact data versus you know stuff on customer satisfaction or or knowledge outcomes or even behavior change and only six percent of the articles actually got at impact so this is this is a hard thing to do to actually figure out how to measure and it's labor intensive because you have to go beyond our traditional customers to get data so uh oh and that typed we do a lot of retrospective post then pre yep so do we so especially that's a good thing to do when it's about like skills or things that people might they might think they they know more about at the if you were to actually do a pre survey they might overestimate their skills um and then they learn more and they realize oh I really didn't know that much about this so that's where you want to use that retrospective design and then you do get this pre and post change which is nice to see but then it's even beyond that it's helpful to get people who know those folks it's you know it's not quite as much as a leadership 360 kind of thing but that idea of getting someone else to vouch for the way that person stepped up their leadership and what they did in their community um it's hard to get but you often hear that when you do the ripple mapping so Scott you have other suggestions besides ripple mapping you mentioned phone calls afterwards um so you know we do a lot of retrospective post then pre and so somebody has delivered a great six week program and it's great and you know people are learning things and you do this and it shows yep there's a difference from pre to post that's all great but we know that there's other things we hope that there's other things that happen when they leave yeah and so besides you know ripple mapping or you even mentioned follow-up calls what what other suggestions might there be and how many calls does a person have to make it's just you know it's just kind of like I think that's always a struggle with us because we think oh we just got to do a survey and we've got enough information but we don't it's not telling us like you said to get to the stakeholder they want to know what difference we made so any other suggestions well so here's the things that we do we do for all the participants in our cohort leadership programs we do an annual alumni survey we also use that information for our federal report outcomes um so the we get a pretty good response from that survey so it's all the people who completed a leadership program in that calendar year and we have a few questions in there um they're not the best but four questions by the way but they do get at at impact we get a pretty good response from that survey and it's only because we have this kind of continual newsletter that we send to program alumni we keep in touch with them we we try to encourage people to be part of our you know facebook and whatever social media presence so it's that ongoing communication with alumni that makes it more likely that they will respond to the survey when they get it and then we also have and we've published in journal of extension about something called the action items method which is where you collect on the last day of a program let's say it's a leadership cohort program you ask people to write down up to five specific things they're going to do differently so you're getting at behaviors specific things are going to do differently in the next six months as a result you know based on what they learned in the extension program and then you do a follow-up survey and in Qualtrics you can customize the survey so that their specific action items show up in the survey it's called embedded data and it's kind of cool so the whole thing we've written a couple an article about that and I can share that but they you get us you get the survey asking you to what extent did you follow up did you do these things you said you were going to do and we use a scale of you know one to four not at all up to to a great extent and that's a really cool idea but we've run up against that issue where people don't necessarily respond you don't get if you're lucky to get a 25 percent response rate which you know that's not very good it's that's that's realistic but it's just you can't really say much with that so I guess what goes along with that action items is also the continued engagement with former participants and that's sort of the if you want their data you gotta you gotta keep giving them stuff keep keep the sort of channels of communication open it's true what else have we done I think those are the big things like in fact right now because it's federal reporting time so right now we have our annual alumni survey in the field I guess is what you say it's it's open now for people to fill out and I don't even send the survey it's sent by our educator whose name they would know and um and she has you know she words the the communications last year I tried to send it and I used my wording and we got a really crappy response rate um and so I think the more you can personalize this the better and and she's got she's got the connections and the relationship there so you have to build on that to get to get the the information and that's why ripple mapping is so great because it's very relational and um and people like like Rachelle says people love it and you can collect great data it's um it's a wonderful tool and it is and you can bring a lot of people together and I just think about I'm looking at who's on the call today and some of the programs that they provide we have some parent education specialists and so all the connections they're making with parents there's some great opportunity excuse me is that like a divorce or um like a that kind of program for separating parents or is it some of it but there's more it's broader than that so there's a lot of different parent ed programs that happen in North Dakota and and a lot of them are are many sessions you know and so there's quite a relationship that's been built and some of these techniques would be great they do a survey you know at the end but some I think there's some additional things we might even be able to gather our food nutrition um agriculture horticulture our master gardeners I think about the work that they do long term ongoing you know bringing in a focus group of them to kind of follow up with some of this about what's what they've done because of the program but for the extension program so lots of lots of good ways we could we could think about it and I still think you know I mentioned this in the slides that setting that expectation while you while you have people in the room like we know we're done with this program but we really are going to want to know how you've used this information so you're going to hear from us and please please please respond to the survey when you get it or just know that that's super important for us to continue to offer programs like this and setting that expectation is important good point any other questions for Scott I know we're running up we got 50 minutes but if if we're finished we'll certainly um sign off to any other questions for Scott Scott if you're okay we did tape this and we'll put it on our internal site so our staff can watch it also your PowerPoint we'd like to make that available to our internal staff I mean for staff if that's if you're comfortable with that yeah I think it's helpful because people can kind of listen to you talk again and a lot of folks can't always be on our webinars but it's just nice to have them taped too I see somebody is typing maybe a question I want to make sure we we respond to okay okay good thanks Kim but thanks everybody and thank you Scott for showing us this again I apologize we jumped in and talked about I know you were talking more about the community development side of things but you know that's kind of everybody's world too all of our staff are out there in these various places across North Dakota every county's got an office and a lot of our work is community development even though it's it's focused in agriculture or families health nutrition whatever it might be I mean we're helping um we're a key component of that community with the educational programs extension provides so I think this is information that we can all use and um we all have to do impact reports or statements so this is good yeah all good so thank you again Scott thanks everybody for your attendance and we will put this up online and let you all know where the link is and um any last words I don't know Scott from you uh no no other than if you um if you have success collecting impact data on your program write it up and send it off to either a journal of extension or a journal of human science is an extension because you want if you if you figured out a good way to connect with former participants and get impact data other people are going to want to know about it exactly we're all we're all in this together right yeah yeah all right thanks again Scott appreciate it thanks everybody um have a great day okay okay thanks thanks