 Welcome to the Bitcoin show. Welcome. We're so happy to see you. I'm Bruce Wagner and I'm Ed gal today We have a really really special show for you today We have atlas and Adam from the bitcoin.org forums here by popular demand I have to admit I mean we'll talk about it in a minute But I had actually never heard of these guys before but what where was I I have no idea Our chat room is going atlas atlas. You got to have atlas the only guess we want is atlas and I'm like Who's that? Okay? I got I got a research these guys. All right, so anyway, but I want to I want to first say that today's episode is brought to you by our Sponsors, we love dearly our sponsors because we wouldn't be here without them Carpe Veeam CarpeVeeam.com Video marketing seizure market say it with video to help you create a video to market whatever you're gonna market They're awesome and messy grill M E Z E grill messy grill.com. We're authentic Mediterranean food meets modern flavor All these guys accept bitcoin. 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I think it's very important to remain independent in this wild sea Yeah, you just never know just like Satoshi, you know people say, you know all these theories about why Satoshi decided to be pretty pretty much anonymous and I say the same reason that he created Bitcoin because he's an intelligent guy I mean if I had created Bitcoin, I wouldn't be talking about it because you become a target You just paint a target on your on your back. So why do that? Why give people that opportunity? But you are very outspoken. I I've heard your podcast that you've you've just started right? It's bit talk with two T's B. I. T. T. A. L. K. Dot TV. Is it right right? That is correct. Okay We just go by the bit talk podcast. I guess we could be labeled by our domain I think that any way you want to get to us is fine. We're going to be showing up more places. Cool So I listened to it because I had to do with my research And so I listened to to your podcast a couple times actually to get a feel for for you guys and I think you're doing a great job Yes, this is just the first episode that you finished, right? Right. We plan to do another one this Wednesday. So stay tuned We plan we plan to do it like twice a week eventually. I don't know how Adam feels about that There's all Yeah, exactly. I think that the the way we're playing this right now is we're starting off with what we got which is once a week Raven for releases on Saturdays Recording on Fridays and this week is a little bit special but but Well, that's you know, I'm getting my wisdom teeth removed. So we can't do a podcast It's a narrative. So I'm just gonna sound like I'm in pain or something. I don't know Talk about Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin With your with all the gauze I can just see it. But you know, as long as you're in silhouette They won't notice but you know, the thing is that you'll probably have the same experience that we had we just like we were gonna do a month. I know a weekly Bitcoin show and Very quickly we figured out that like about a half to a third to a half of the day We're sitting around talking about Bitcoin all day anyway, and we thought well We may as well just do this so much happening Yeah, we're talking on the hacking front the development the you know the media attention the you know I'm out gosh, so all there's so many issues is swirling around Internet speed that there's a lot to talk about. I think you're gonna find out but you know once a week You're gonna have a hard time getting it in once a week I wanted to spend all day talking about Bitcoin, but now I'll be fine but I think that that You know that Atlas and I have other projects in mind that you know are on the media side for some of it that's not all right right now is Very appealing I think both from both from a both from a currency property But also from entrepreneurial property if you're an entrepreneur then you know Trying to start something that's denominated in US dollars right now in this current market is a very very difficult thing But that's just not the case in Bitcoin in Bitcoin. It is a land of opportunity Right what we need is to inform these entrepreneurs more business like people have the qualifications So they can be starting up more businesses in Bitcoin, you know, right? It's right right now. It's really just technical people and you know a lot of them have good business sense But a good portion of it is really lacking. I haven't seen a decent business plan on the forums and very often Well, I mean it's not only hackers I mean it was that way originally but actually I know a lot of people as soon as they see those charts of the values There's a lot of Fred and Margin Toledo crowd that just say wait a minute Did I just double my money in one week? You know, it's like whoa, it's waking up And also a lot of hackers mothers and fathers have been talked into taking out money from their whatever You know, they're they're savings accounts or the 401ks or whatever they are and buying Bitcoin So it's it is spreading for sure now you guys don't get me wrong I don't think that yeah, I didn't mean to convey that I thought that it was just hackers doing this That's not the case that that does not describe me in the slightest. I'm very new, you know, um I'm very new to the Bitcoin community. Which one is me? You're when you're saying me or it's about two weeks ago So Adam is the one speaking. Okay, so I'm sorry. I was going to clarify when you say me who that was so that's Adam Yes, sorry, this is okay So you're saying you're new to the Bitcoin community You're new to the Bitcoin community. Yeah, so I'm new to the Bitcoin community actually my background is in a variety of things But I haven't But I'm very new to this. I looked at it about six months ago initially When I had an opportunity to kind of get into mining because I've always been involved in the game side of things And so then you've got the processing power and it sort of makes sense to look at this stuff But at the time they weren't really worth anything and I you know was really really really focused on silver and world economics So, you know past it by but now now I see it's actually gotten over that first hurdle now We're into the second stage of this bull market. I think it's a very exciting thing And you know from a similar position when I first picked up Bitcoin had like over a thousand coins generated by deleted them all Because I think it was gonna be become bigger than a technical toy, you know, wow, so Deleted isn't that a weird thing that the thought of deleting your money? That's just so weird, isn't it? Now it's money now, but I mean you talk to somebody like it's silver's a great example You know silver was worth what three dollars fifteen years ago I mean, you know try to find someone to sell you silver fifteen dollars now. It's not even conceivable, right? But I guarantee they didn't delete any Beginning honestly because this is not the first, you know This is not the first web-based digital currency to come out. It's just the first one to get past the hard part Right, which is the part where it can die and then you lose everything, but it can cost you much So that's okay as long as you put everything in and we're still in the process of getting past that because you know Obviously that has happened to a few people so everybody's asking the chat room is going crazy about JavaScript mining mining What's the deal with that? In what context? On the website Adam like how we tried on bit talk TV, but a lot of people got angry because their CPU fans turned up when they try to View our podcast. Well, it was on for 24 hours. Is that what they're talking about? Are they asking about like the implications of what it's going to mean? Oh What's it gonna? Yeah, Atlas forces computers to mine for him So I don't know something about mining on your website that yeah this this you can address if you want or I can get it at Yeah, we tried it out But it seems that a lot of users don't have a sufficient CPU power to run the miner and wash the podcast Or it's just too annoying for them So we don't want to we don't want to deny anyone access to our podcast based on their hardware So yeah, I figure and we get enough donations right at him that just fight that alone I mean we all know that's the thing is that you know, I mean As you said we just did our first episode and so the show has been in existence From conceptualization to now for all of what five days six days Okay You know We haven't really done anything Because we really don't know what we're doing yet quite quite all the way on the reality though Is that the cost to run something like this and to do it in a convincing and professional way is not very much So really what we'd like to do is just is to try to be a completely community supported Podcast and I think that's very doable And so that was one of the models that we were looking at doing the concerns that we had with it Of course was exactly what happened which is that you know, which is that people would get on and so it's one of these I believe we've um we've Switched it off entirely and we have plans to possibly turn it back on but have a default to being off And if you want to contribute then you can do that Okay Like I told you in the email what we're trying to do is fund ourselves with nothing more than 0.02 Bitcoin micro donations from listeners to like the show we're gonna ask for that is a you know as a voluntary as a voluntary per episode Contribution and that should be enough for us to provide a lot of services to the community like transcripts and you know fresh art on everyone So so yeah, we're really we're really excited about what Bitcoin enables us to do because it really lets us take the pie you know it lets us Yeah, no be torn out corporate master never before Could you accept donations less than a dollar with Bitcoin you now can't there's no middleman? There's no one to take a little bit off of it, you know, right? Well, okay, so you know that the idea this whole idea of Having the website run JavaScript mining for you as a donation That's that I didn't actually know anything about that until the chat room is just explaining now a little bit to me So what you're saying I want to make sure we our viewers understand because I didn't I didn't even know about this So what you they're saying I guess and what you're saying is that when they when they visit your website Then it actually runs their GPU and it does mining that is actually creating bitcoins for you guys I believe that's not exactly correct What it actually does is so there are a variety of ways that you can mine bitcoins You can mine them with CPUs you can mine with GPUs so what someone came up with this is not our script We took it from you. Do you have the link handy atlas? Yeah, it's Bitcoin plus dot org I believe or calm forgive me if I'm wrong Bitcoin plus So basically What that so that lets you install it install on your website and run it as a Java app And then what that does is it engages either an entire core or part of a core depending on what's available And it's not your GPU. It's your CPU core. So I believe much pardon I believe GPU won't GPU ones exist but our current browsers don't have the stuff built in So maybe one day we will see GPU accelerated miners on websites and that will ease it up for a lot of users But anyways, I'm going off to Andrea. Go on. I'm Adam. Oh, yeah Well, I mean that's that's basically it is that you know is that for people, you know Like my computer I have I have a quad core and so if I'm sitting there then yeah You know, it's fine for me because it doesn't really matter too much If I'm devoting part or all of one core, you know, I'm sitting there browsing But if you've got a laptop, you know, or you're sitting on an older computer Then that's a real that's that's a problem. So I think that you know We're not the first site to use that software. There are a couple others out there already And it's a really interesting way to start monetizing a property like this in a way That doesn't actually cost any of the listeners really anything once you figure out how to get it so it doesn't you know affect them That would be the thing experience them. It's no good. How do you find out? How do you know that you're actually They're using those CPUs. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I have a question. That's beyond the technical Does the site explicitly ask permission to use the user's CPU to mine for you? It depends on your browser like if you're running Google Chrome It'll ask you do you want to run this JavaScript right when you get in the site? But I think most browsers it just automatically starts running. Well, no, actually, I mean, I use Chrome I'm sorry to interrupt. I use Chrome. I use Google Chrome and I went to your site I listened to your podcast yesterday and today and I didn't have any JavaScript pop-up that asked me anything Turn it off for the last two days over 24 hours on Saturday night or a Friday night through Saturday morning Okay, and we get some complaints about it. So I you know, I gave people a direct link and then I asked Atlas to remove it Okay, we've removed it at this point, you know, I mean We're trying things is what we're doing or a new show and so yeah Well, I mean, I think that that's that's a that's an innovative idea as long as there's a pop-up or some sort of a Front page that asks people's permission because I would not appreciate Basically running software on my machine without my permission is could be considered malware that you know Yeah, absolutely either way frankly Yeah, like I said, what if and when this does go back on on our site It's going to default to off and it'll just be you know If you want to help out while you're listening to show you can turn it on. Okay. All right Well, it's off now and yeah I mean so you are going to give them a an option to opt in or opt out when they visit the site if you Do implement it in the future? Yes, okay. Yeah, I think that's important how I view that is that we might as well just start a bit talk TV dot TV pool And we just yeah, just come up a pool of pool features You know, yeah, like a like a wild bag someone proposed idea of a communist pool We sound like a fun idea where everyone gets equal payout no matter what CPU have me They're like a penny of two. You'll still get the same guy is like with a GPU mine in the pool Which he probably quit pretty soon. Yeah, I think it'd be very fun for people with very little computing power Yeah, I work out, you know, it might not be very fun if you have a lot of computing power, but you know, whatever Yeah All the slow slow old let old computers will meet will pull together and they'll all get equal share That sounds like an idea I think I'm all about innovative ideas like that as long as it's I'm about transparency and honesty and being upfront and saying This is what we're doing, you know If something were to run like that and it wasn't with my permission I would probably be very upset But if as long as you're asking them is you know, if you're gonna do this in the future I know I understand you're just starting out in its experiment as long as it's very clear Do you agree to run this process on your machine in order to generate bitcoins as a donation? Yes, or no Because you know, some people it may affect their hardware, especially if they're on a weak laptop or an old laptop or whatever It's really it wouldn't be fair to do it without their permission, but let me ask you Yeah, they're saying here that it crashed my laptop or something Yeah, okay, and what about the way as I've scrolled off now in my it's Windows unfortunately, I'm using here but the Yeah, there it is TF to thanks Satoshi G exchange CTF see our TF to decentralized Bitcoin exchange What's what are your plans about using that tell us about that? Oh, that was an idea posted on the forums idea here Yeah, I told Adam about it last night. I don't know what his current thoughts are But basically Team Fortress 2 is now a free game anyone can download the application Team Fortress 2 free You don't have to pay for anything But basically they have items within the game like they have something called a key And it's basically an in game commodity has inherent value that when you destroy it You get like a random game random or rare item in game But you could also use as a store value and trade that for bitcoins and vice versa without it being reversible And that's one of the key features of it. You can't reverse transactions within if you were a trade for TF to for bitcoins So is it is it like a competing crypto digital currency or what's the I don't understand the It's it's not competing. It's not decentralized. It's all controlled by valve There is no there's no real Bitcoin theme going on about doing with Team Fortress 2 It's just it's a good medium a potential me because we have all these payment processors and they're all reversible And they all are tied to exactly being money. They want to collect the fee through Team Fortress 2 It's all up to the people, you know, okay These are training in an in-game item. You're trading one commodity for another So basically it just lets them get their their value out of Team Fortress 2 into Bitcoin and vice versa It even knew people could use Team Fortress 2 as paying process to figure out TF 2 I guess if you are weren't here to you could directly sell your items for Bitcoin be cool to see a Bitcoin market For TF 2 items, but that's not really my gig. I'm not a big gamer anymore Okay, let me give you my perspective on this because we actually did have a conversation about this last night Please say your name because we you actually your voices sound so similar Tell us your name when you say my perspective So this is Adam Adam. Okay, got you So basically I Didn't really understand the idea first when Atlas pitched me and what the conclude You know what what I came to realize is that what he's saying is that this is an easy way to buy it right now When I went to fund an account, you know, I had to go through Through a payment processor who then got me into Liberty Reserve and then I had transferred my Liberty Reserve over to one of the Various exchanges, you know, and then once you're into the system and into bitcoins Then it's a lot easier but getting that initial getting that initial foot in the door is actually pretty difficult So these keys as I understand it Atlas are actually sold by a valve, right? Right, right. So it depends on valve already sells them for dollars. Oh I'm getting that now. That's what's coming. You can buy with a credit card So basically you're paying into basically essentially you're getting steam dollars during steam dollars into you into bitcoins But in order not really dollars and not really dollars. I disagree with you on the fact that they're money But I think that it is a It is money. It's in money in the in-game economy. You can use it to trade for other items within the Yes in the same way that Bitcoin was a year and a half. So, yeah, let me make sure I understand this so you can actually buy these value things From steam like with a credit card master card visa or something like that Yes, yeah, and then you can take those and exchange them for Bitcoin right on the spot Somebody make some market and that's what Atlas is it's talking about doing. So, okay So be so the end result is that you can buy Bitcoin with Mastercard of Visa Yes, exactly That sort of process because because both the key transaction so so once you buy it Okay, so you buy with the credit card and then you have these keys Once you go to trade them for bitcoins that transaction happens instantaneously, okay So then the Bitcoin transaction also happens instantaneously, right it's radically different than any other option to fund on the market right now You know, you can do a wire transfer and it'll take you know between one and only four days depending on where you're going to You can try to do a credit card, but I mean there, you know And then it's a good shortcut and then there's the problem of the keys though Like how do I turn my steam this item into actual dollars again? And there's a whole bunch. There's a huge community 70,000 people playing team Fortress 2 and if you sell a key for less than what valve selling for at least like 10 cents It's instantly us dollars pretty much you either so I guess there is an obstacle there because you probably have to accept paypal Or something for that key, but since you can't reverse the I guess that comes there's another issue there. Well, you can always sell the bitcoins Selling actually getting out is easy anyway You can sell bitcoins on trade Hill and get a buyer's right into your bank account There's a lot of ways to sell Bitcoin Even through BTC near me and just sell them out right for cash to somebody in your neighborhood I think it's easier to get cash. First of all, why would you want dollars out? But if you did I think it's a lot easier to get dollars out of Bitcoin than it is to to get to buy Bitcoin with cash Or in this case credit cards. So is it so let me when this is all is this actually functioning right now? No, it's all it's all on paper right now I mean what it would all take for me to do is create a TF2 server Which it would be have to like a low power so it's like three dollars a month And I just write some scripts and they're using source mod and yeah I would be running in silly and it's all depending on people willing to join that server on Team Fortress 2 and start trading bitcoins for TF2 items So I guess I could easily start it up or someone else could take this idea and start it up themselves But do you have to so you in order to set this up? Would you have to be set up your entity would have to be set up as a MasterCard visa merchant? No, not at all. That's all taking care on Val side. Oh Val takes care of all of that And and there's people concerned like huh Val may not like you using their game as a trading marketplace But the thing is Val has everything the game from this people are just gonna if this takes off People are just gonna be buying from Val store like crazy, and they'll just be like, oh, we see no problem I'm getting a risk. They're getting a bunch of 250 and transactions as much people as many people want to buy bitcoins They will get profit from it, you know, right? Yeah, and what's the user base exchange rate is actually set Officially by Val wow, so it's so it's a fixed exchange rate because these keys don't change price Yes, $2.50 cents for a key. So how many keys would you need for a Bitcoin right now? six or seven So six or seven valve keys will get you a Bitcoin So basically the value key is take peg to the dollar. It's just that two and a half for a dollar Yes, okay, and what's the user base on this game and how big is the economy? Do you have any idea? The economy on this game for the games It's huge like way back when they first started some people were selling virtual hats They put your character for like 10,000 well not to know but like hundreds of thousands of dollars and these people will get like Tens of thousands of dollars in profits because of it It's dying down a little bit. It's kind of stabilizing right now But the economy is just getting bigger and bigger now that the game is free to play So it has a lot of similarities Bitcoin except it's just cosmetic items with no real Use but right and at the end of the day, there is a centralized control, right? Yes, which kind of helps because then they can deal with the MasterCard visa nonsense. Yeah exactly exactly You know, I mean distributed systems are incredibly robust and incredibly strong But they do have that problem if you need to interface with the real world, which right now is not us Right, then you got to jump through hoops. So so that would be a shortcut for that Right. Okay. So yeah when yeah, yeah, the chat room says he did Bruce just say Centralization is helps. Yeah, it does if you're dealing if you have a big company a big corporate Entity and you're dealing with MasterCard visa They have teams of lawyers you can fight for their merchant account to defend it with the banks because they're all part of the same Club but if you as an individual set up a merchant account training except MasterCard visa for Bitcoin They're gonna yank your account pretty fast. So that kind of does help As long as they allow you to set up this exchange now Would it be is your idea that it wouldn't necessarily? The user could use it almost transparently without actually having anything to do with the game They could just basically put in their MasterCard visa and buy Bitcoin Or well all about sees that you bought a virtual item from them. I mean Val doesn't really care what servers you said I mean there's like freaking furry and pornography servers on the TF2 game So it's they don't really care as much content wise you get that's what's actually decentralized is the servers users can set up so um Okay, and so are you are you planning to actually set up this exchange? I'm tempted now that we're now talking about it on there I mean it's really not that it's really not that hard, you know All I need is about three dollars a month to set up like a VPS really cheap VPS and People can really probably set up the rest. They really wanted to so You want to set this up then you know, I mean we can definitely go set it up Bruce We just started talking about this last night. Wow, really? Yeah, gosh, there are these the you have fans who are following your every word because they're in the chat room They're all about it. They want to know now this is from them They're asking you feel free to not answer if you want But they're asking about you know if you are of legal age And if not if that is gonna it would affect your ability to you know to deal with the whatever banking Issues there are in operating an exchange If I was Not of age it wouldn't be an issue. I have ways to get around it If you really want to set this up you could donate some bitcoins to our podcast TV Bit talk dot TV donation address and I'll use that towards Kaylee host and I'll set up a server tonight if you really want wow Now Bruce were you asking about we're asking about sort of the larger implications of that What do you mean explain? The large I mean Well, I Think I guess is did Atlas did Atlas answer your question completely. Oh, I'm not sure the chat room was asking You know if I guess it's not clear if you guys are of legal age And if that even makes any difference at all when you're operating an exchange Atlas, I'm not sure if you want to disclose. I am of legal age. I'm you know, I'm married and you know Been around for a while. Okay All right, so that's cool. And so tell me what is it that you're This is an idea that you just came up with and you may or may not decide to do it What it what is it that you? What's your primary occupation? What fills most of your time right now both of you? As for me, you know, I'll just go ahead and disclose. I'm a student. All right, so My occupation right now is just writing down business plans. I would like to act on the future. I read a lot I just educate myself Adam probably doesn't disclose anything Well, I can tell you that I've spent the last pretty much two years You know spending somewhere between 14 and 19 hours a day trying to understand what's going on with our world And I think about six months ago. I actually started to kind of figure it out Sort of started to make sense. And so now this is what makes sense to do. Mm-hmm. Okay. I mean, what's the reason behind your anonymity The anonymity is that we want to keep our options open in terms of what we can talk about and what we can say And once you start attaching a name to it and start attaching a real-life identity to it that gets much more difficult I you know, I I think it's very brave Of what you guys are doing as far as you know being out there and up front with your ideas But I think that there's there's a real scenario here where the government is gonna come in and start to start to cause problems for us And personally I like my life. Yeah Yeah, it coin is a very revolutionary idea people like to think otherwise But it has it from a start from Satoshi. It's a very libertarian very anti-government idea So you may disagree with us, but well, no, not at all the way I mean it is a revolutionary idea, of course But I feel pretty safe as a journalist because if I'm in trouble Reporting about Bitcoin then so is Forbes fortune business week Wall Street Journal Everybody that's interviewed me this week Al Jazeera English and so on so like everybody's in trouble because everybody's talking about it Yeah, well, we're yeah, we're telling the truth. I mean they are too mostly I mean I I was really bashing in the other day that like two or three articles that came out recently But for the most part they're doing pretty well the economist had a great article in New York observer had Had a couple great articles. So I mean So that's what it is right now right now it's speculative or right now That's how the world is viewing it. And so, you know, you and I know that's not really true The fundamentals say that this thing, you know has legs and it's just getting started not end Yeah, yeah, right, you know, I mean I mean once people start really working and doing business with this thing once it reaches like over a late at least like How big is a Bitcoin economy right now? How many how many US dollars are in the bitcoins right now? Do you call Adam? I don't I think it's six point seven million times 17 dollars or so I don't know how much that is but it's a lot. It's a lot and growing as the value goes up You say that's a lot, but that's that's actually an incredibly small amount I mean if you look at a relative to any other sort of financial markets out there, that's you know That's a day's worth of losses on a good day. Yeah, so, you know, I mean Yeah, once we start taking away from major industries in terms of Bitcoin economy. We'll start seeing some Uproar. I'm pretty confident we will Tell you one thing the fact that I'm here in fact that I'm interested in this means that we've we've exited that first phase Means that we are at the we've exited the part where nobody knows about it And nobody's ever heard of it and it's just some hacker thing But we have to enter the part where we start seeing that steady climb Mm-hmm. I think so too. I think I think that this is just the ground floor I always say we're not even on the ground floor We're like in the basement two steps up and the witness really hits things. I disagree with you there I think this is the ground floor I think before you were in the basement and now we're on floor one. Yeah Yeah, I mean there's a lot of media attention right now But I think that it's it's hitting the media people are finding out about it But as far as the buying of Bitcoin and the actual use of Bitcoin I think we're we're not at the ground floor yet when it we will we will be when you can go You know to many places and buy a cup of coffee with Bitcoin and also when like half of people You know have money in Bitcoin in the form of Bitcoin just like right now How many people you know use PayPal and that's when that same percentage of people use Bitcoin Then I think we'll be at the ground floor of something really I mean it. We're already something really huge But what I mean is the value is going to go up when you talk about the Bitcoin economy If the value of a Bitcoin goes to $600 a Bitcoin for example Well, look at look at what the total economy is then then it's 600 times 10 million Bitcoin or whatever it is So, you know, it's it's gonna as the value goes exponentially up. So does the total economy, right? But what's gonna what's gonna be the big driving factor for how fast we see that's a decline you I believe that you Heard you made a prediction about a hundred dollars by the end of July. Is that right? Yeah, I said something like that hundred dollars by the end of the month and and 10,000 I actually made it 10,000 a Bitcoin within a year is what I said, but who knows That's a that's a real brave and a very difficult statement to make because there are so many variables here that they're coming Yep, that's what they said when I said it would reach a dollar I told Ed, you know, it was 20 cents or something when I first got into it And I said this is gonna reach a dollar a Bitcoin and he said, yeah, maybe in two or three years And I said no, no, no, it's gonna be two or three months But of course we were both wrong. It was actually two or three weeks So, you know, it was like really fast and then when it hit a dollar I was like, this is gonna reach $10 and so on. So it we just keep you know I keep making these predictions and so far I've been right. I said, what was it? Was it June 1st? I said it'll be $10 by the end of May or something and actually the by the by mid Then in June 1st, it was nine point nine nine nine. So the money's got to come from somewhere is what it comes back to the money And what come from somewhere? Everybody who doesn't know it if this really is a real currency It's like it's gonna have to go into some major industry like the pyro bay founder He made an article when he says has a very good use for international trading with all these What I forget what kind of companies but it has to hit something like that It's not gonna just come from people like you and me who just want to buy coffee with this stuff I mean it would have to be very massive right to happen and I find it very doubtful That's gonna happen because the central banks the government they're very good at censoring the media the general media out there And they'll get it out of general media if they can yeah, but so far They're not very good at entering at censoring the internet and where the internet really is the new media But people that I talked to say I can't remember the last time I watched actually old media that every all my information I get off the internet. So they're watching us. They're watching new media and they're learning I mean every kids kids I say, you know 20 20 to 30 year olds are actually getting most of their information from Google video and YouTube I mean there, you know, we're really getting our information from the internet now I'm you know, it's I think that the government's not very good at censoring the internet yet And hopefully they never will be it, you know, we're ahead of the curve because we're you know The younger generation is up on this technology and that the internet is the equalizer and it promotes free speech Well, the question is will the majority get their information from the in there It does the majority get their information from the internet right now because what I'm seeing now It's a bunch of people who just spit out what they see on Fox News CNN or whatever, you know Whether it's a majority or not is largely a real I mean yes That's the reality of is that it we don't need you know I mean look at something like the American Revolution when the American Revolution started something like 13 percent of The actual population was in favor of the revolution, but they did it anyway Right. So I mean so so to get these things started you don't need as a start the grass magical about 51% That's true. There's a tipping point and also, you know, it's the influencers about thresholds really what it comes down to I know it likes about a lot of things, but it's about thresholds And so the question is, you know, if your neighbor Has bitcoins and asked you, you know, do you do a bit coins then maybe that's weird But if five of your neighbors on your street all say that then is that still weird? You know, I mean at what point does it become normal? What's your threshold for? Okay? Well, I guess this is happening So I'll do it right and you know the other thing is that it's not just how many It's not just the number of people that are into Bitcoin or aware of it or getting their information from the web It's who the influencers because in every family, you know, in your extended family, there's you know Our nephew Jonathan Jonathan is the geek. He's the computer guy. You want to know what kind of phone to buy Ask Jonathan, you want to know what kind of computer to buy ask Jonathan and Jonathan is going to the family picnic and he's talking about Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin Bitcoin And he's talking his parents into investing in Bitcoin. So there's that it's it's not just it's like a demographic and advertising It's not just how many people it's the influencers when it comes to technology and innovation and things new It's the younger generation that is actually influencing all the older people. The other thing I wanted to say is that the What was the other thing I'm gonna say darn it. I lost it I Yeah, but how effective is the influence because look frankly, I've told my grandparents my parents my teachers all about it And so far they think it's play money Maybe I did a good do good job of convincing them but the older generation are they truly receptive to this new influence? Or will they truly open it up to a little Johnny's new bitcoins? In my experience, they've been very receptive like I know 60 year olds and 70 year olds are putting a Thousands and thousands of dollars. Oh, I know what I was gonna say the other thing When they see the growth, they're just like they have nothing to lose, you know Just you know for us what might be twenty twenty or thirty dollars Might be twenty or thirty thousand dollars for somebody who has a lot of money So they can just throw some pocket change in and see what happens and then it Exactly, you know, that's that's that's been kind of my experience too is that the influencers certainly You know like I recently was finally able to convince my my parents to put some money into something besides dollars But Shoot, I just forgot what I was gonna say. Oh, I remembered what I was gonna say We're just like this is like amnesia is contagious But here's the thing that I was gonna say is that I've heard people talking about creating some sort of a fund That's tied to the value of Bitcoin if they were able to create some kind of a fund I'm really not sure if that's if that would be a good thing or a bad thing But one thing I know if there was some side of sort of a fund that was traded on the stock market that it was actually tied to the value of Bitcoin imagine if Institutional investors like General Electric or something decided to put money into this fund because it was so profitable And they were buying Bitcoin now you're talking about Millions tens of millions hundreds of millions of dollars for one investor. That's gonna really change whether already looking at it Yeah, that we know of I mean we can't disclose any names, but just from people telling us There's definitely big hitters that are buying or looking at Bitcoin for sure It's just a matter of getting that critical mass an exchange traded fund index to Bitcoin so the The chatroom is asking something about a private army. What is that? What are they talking about? I don't know that was like a single post, you know, these single posts will get you in trouble every time There's a troll flood like way back when you know before we had the newbie board And I just got and someone asked like what would you do with your if you had a million bit points? I answered well, I would like to get a private army and set up a sovereign island somewhere with that You know open up the private army for the highest moral bidder You know encourage liberty give everyone the power to hire an army on an individual level Get rid of the monopoly on armies So anybody can have their own army So I think so that scared a lot of people apparently I guess it is a very controversial idea But I don't I probably there probably some flaws in my idea And it's actual ability to start and it's Both at the tonight of you ourselves is anarcho capitalists. So what are you familiar with that term? No, but I'm really I know anarchy and I know capitalism so Anarcho capitalism isn't actually what it sounds like it sounds like oh craziness, you know anarchy, but there's also some capitalism Is capitalism When you ask the question who's in charge the answer is no Mm-hmm like Bitcoin so so what you wind up with now This is a system we've never really had in our lifetimes But you know if you look back historically it's to actually happen a couple of times and in general it's pretty good You know the reality is is that you only need things like you know There are some regulations you need but you only need most of the government intervention when you have monopolies And the only way that you get monopolies is when government enables monopolies to happen By making regulations and the government itself is a monopoly on guns Exactly the government itself is monopoly on a variety a lot of things. Yeah monopoly on governance. So so the question is So the question is what should the government do and what should be available for private citizens? And so if you you know have all this money and want to make an army then that's fine But you should use it to defend yourself not to go attack Well you attack people then you know you're disrupting the community and then other people are encouraged to get together Pull their money pull the resources form their own army and because you don't have this taxing authority It's taking all of the money from the people and then using it to fund the army that works against them And I'm gonna I'm gonna save this and how this ties with Bitcoin is that people regular people like you and I could anonymously Fun things such as a private army Without being stopped, you know corporations entities groups They could put money towards this without having a trace You know and previous that could be stopped at the source the funding because money is now currently centralized But with Bitcoin that changes everything and you really think that that would be a better a better country if everybody had their own army No, what no But the question is do you think it's a better army when nobody can have their own army except the government? Well, basically you're talking about the right to bear arms and to defend yourself It sounds like I'm basically I'm talking about freedom in general basically. I'm talking about what is the default standard Can you do something or do you have to ask permission? I think the world that we were intended to live in in the world that our founders created for us in this country Was one where we did not have to ask permission to go and do normal shit. You know, that's that's a very new thing. It's last 80 years Okay So it's about I tell you what um, I understand that this sounds a little bit on fringe But if you go and you read about monetary history specifically specifically a book like, you know the creature from Jack the lion by Edward Edward What the hexa called Edward G Griffin? That's a really good place to start there are a lot of other things up there And also if you want to learn more about anarcho-capitalism from economists who've actually thought these things through and if you know Put together how it would work with security and you know how you do government in a in a in a free society I mean a truly free society, which is very much not what we have right now And then you can you can take a look on YouTube and just search for the mice's attitude I can link you to a couple of good videos if you'd like But this is this how Bitcoin ties into that Bitcoin enables these kinds of societies because eventually if everyone puts their wealth in Bitcoin There's not gonna be any tax authority, you know And if there's no taxes, you don't have monopolies like a divvious. What's the name of the term the debt you're talking about? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's that you don't have them stealing from you So they can continue to cohearse you that cycle kind of abrupts when the funding is all in a decentralized currency You know, so people will say this is wrong. You're still be centralized banks and such People won't go totally into Bitcoin, but um, we just have to wait and that's not the point The point is to break the monopoly that we have right now, which is dollars The dollar monopoly is the most destructive thing the world has ever goddamn seen Yeah, and I wonder if it's really not the government that's behind that it's the the world bankers who actually We could go into that thing if you want, but I think it's much easier to it's much easier to understand these problems If you look at what's happening rather than you know, rather than who exactly is doing because once you get into the Who is doing it on the on the meta-scale, but then that's very controversial. You know, I mean Just just to mention this is exactly why we're we're appearing as silhouettes on this show This sort of talk is not really that popular. No, no, well, it's not it's it's it's on their friends It's not mainstream, right? There's a lot of people. I mean, it's they're the political views that Can I don't know overlap with the idea of Bitcoin, but not necessarily Anything you say that has the the net result of saying, you know Anytime you transact in United States legal tender, you are being robbed. That is what is happening, right? Yeah, well, that's true and also But you know so anyway, but yeah these obviously armies are often associated with attacking not just defending and so you know Especially individuals, let me it's more. It's really more about freedom Well, we do not initiate force unless we're initiated against Really, I think that's what most With most libertarians, you know or people who identify with this sort of freedom freedom element want is just enough to fuck alone You know, I mean, I've tried to start several businesses and I've had some success And I've had a lot of failures and the failures have been every single time largely due to the sheer amount of paperwork That's required. I work out of California So I mean so you can imagine how much regulation red tape nonsense We have to start do you go through to start anything? And so, I mean, you know, it's bad here, but it's bad everywhere I mean it still affects the Bitcoin too because I just try to start a Resale business reselling socks and underwear for bitcoins and I had to wait in the mail for two to three weeks for a resale Certificate still as I came in, you know, so that's just a purchase from the manufacturer And so there's still a lot of red tape and right to give you permission to sell used socks and underwear for a commodity Slightly is the problem with that. Why does that need a license? Mm-hmm, right? Exactly. Yeah, we I think I agree with you As far as the freedom absolutely I agree with that I Yes, for sure Let me take a break really quick because we got to get this in we have so many things to talk about But I do want to again thank our sponsors obviously none of us would be here without them They accept Bitcoin. 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We thank them So So I wanted to find out about Atlas what is the adoration of your fans on the on the forum Like what's that all about? All the people I don't get a lot of fans. I guess I just stick out. I don't understand it all too much You have you contributed that everyone, you know really likes what you have to say Well, I'm glad I'm glad they derive pleasure from my presence Do you hang out on the forum all the time? I guess I do spend a good amount of time on there I have about 1500 posts, which is a good large amount. Well, I've been doing forums for a very long time So I guess I just built up a persona. I guess I'm just very passionate about what I talked about, you know, no, so Okay one from the from the chat room wants to know about how bitcoins will deal with internet failure What does that mean? You see yeah, I made a threat about that and what will happen is if big if they are total Internet infrastructure It disappears We'll just have to be reduced to local blockchains local Local bitcoins. I made a threat about it. So go on. I'm sorry So what you're saying is I mean well if that was be like what if the if the entire Internet was obliterated Yeah If the main infrastructure the Internet is actually very volatile and its infrastructure to the government set it up in the beginning They're setting up all the lines and everything else so they could very well go in and cut the lines and Divide our internet to pieces or whatever it takes to disrupt the blockchain and if that happens We want to be doomed in terms of decentralized currencies people will just have to set them up locally on local possibly firewalls intranets, so Okay, the reality about distributed systems is that I One of my favorite books and I really recommend anybody anybody out there who's looking to understand what Bitcoin means and what it's about It's a book called the starfish and the spider The unstoppable power of leaderless organizations. Are you familiar with this Bruce? No So it's a pretty short book about 200 pages by Ori Broughman and Rod A. Beckstrom and he basically it doesn't talk at all about Bitcoin but it talks about it talks about things like like like the Spanish conquest of the various Native American both South American and North American tribes and where they Succeed in where they failed and essentially lichens Lichens decentralized movements to apaches With you know where hi, let me start over Basically When you take something that doesn't have you know a centralized control mechanism, you know That doesn't have as he describes it tenot chitlin, which is the my pronunciation of the of one of the Maya's Capital cities, you know when the Spanish showed up there initially They basically walked up to the biggest temple and walked in there and talked to the guy with the biggest headdress and said give us all Your gold or we'll kill you and they didn't know who he was You know, they had never seen anybody look like him before dressed and dressed in that type of armor And so they you know on the off chance that he was a god gave him all their gold and then he two years later Blockaded their city and starved 260,000 people Okay, okay, so now contrast that to 20 years later when they move up into North America and start taking on the apaches And instead of finding one big city instead they find all of these different camps and sometimes they're worse cities They're in the beginning the apaches actually did have villages that were built and had you know He had semi-permanent structures and things like that So the Spanish went there and told you know and started killing people started killing the regional leaders But because each regional leader wasn't important unto himself It didn't really matter because when they would kill one just another one stop it would pop up if they would you know attack Attack a town well, they might kill half the people but those other people would go up and form a town There was much more harder to find and get a lot more pissed off at him, too So so lost that fight they went up against these these huge incredibly advanced organized civilizations That are organized religion and all sorts of command structures And then they went up against this ragtag bunch of patches with a bunch of fucking teepees and they got their asses Okay, wait a minute. I mean I gotta interrupt you. What does this have to do with Bitcoin? They said these centralized societies Yeah point is is money Money is the tribe We in Bitcoin are the apaches. We are the new apaches. They cannot kill us They cannot stop us. They will stop some of us and there will be examples made But at the end of the day, they can't do anything without making it much much worse for themselves pure to pure Pure pure file sharing is an excellent example of this look at how many lawsuits and how many you know How many people have been fined thousands and thousands of dollars ridiculous fine for the by the For downloading music over right over various, you know Cuz on emule and stuff like that or you can even look at you can even look at those browsers and how you know We started off with Napster and then we went to Kazaa and I went to Kazaa plus and I want to eat donkey and I went to emule and at each step as They would shut down these companies the next one would be more decentralized and You get to a product like emule or utorrent that has nothing. It's a completely open-source loop It's the evolution the evolution of the of the form of the technology until it's complete decentralization So, okay, let me ask you what do you think the likelihood is that the internet could be stopped or even completely isolated from itself? They've been setting us up for that. I think that that's something that The power to do that didn't used to exist But now it does frankly because in the last six months they passed an internet kill switch bill that essentially gives the president de facto Authority to shut down the internet in the event of a quote national emergency And can the can the president shut down the internet globally? Yeah, but it wouldn't actually there is there is internet outside of the United States It really would only shut down You think that if the United States decides that they're pulling off the mask and they're going all hard for that We're not gonna see other other regimes around the world do the same thing Yeah, but we'll figure out other ways to bypass it It's a central microwave To take all the puppet governments and earn to do it all around the world if this happens here It's surely to happen and the European Union and elsewhere I guarantee it if it happens here has happened in the European Union We already saw internet disruptions intentional internet disruptions in Europe over the law over some of the Some of the protests, you know, and of course we saw it in the Middle East. I mean good Lord Heck look at China, you know, they have a pretty good small not really good censorship, but they're working on it You know, it's pretty comprehensive censorship. I mean certainly there are ways around it But that's like saying okay. Well, you know, don't worry about that wooden wall in front of my you know garage It's only a wooden wall. I can drive through it Well, the thing is the like somebody I read a quote somewhere that someone said The internet by its nature views Censorship as an error and routes around it the fact that you know and you can cite all of these cases of censorship is Evidence itself that we're very aware of it. Everybody knows But that isn't stopped the men with the guns to go into the to the IT places the ISPs and just taking the hardware out The source it doesn't stop that and it isn't impossible to do Yeah, but it has actually happened in this country this happening, you know like recently in the last year that exact thing has happened several times Ice does sorry immigrations and custom enforcement Does broad-scale raids on on ISPs and shuts down entire entire servers And tire, you know entire buildings and takes all of the equipment with all of the server information on it That's happened three or four times so far I think they've shut down a couple of thousand sites right but in order to shut down the entire Internet Basically the world global government would have to confiscate all the computers and all the smartphones and all of the basically You know destroy all ability to generate electricity. I mean, I don't know how I think it's likely but Between an abandonment of the US dollar or a competing currency Yeah, you know or something as similarly bad to Bitcoin Don't you think that that would be preferable in the eyes of the government though under as no I don't think so No, I don't think I don't see that as likely at all I don't think the government can afford to destroy the entire Civilization of humanity just to predict that that all these are to govern before the Internet existed. I mean Look at okay, so you agree that basically the mainstream media. There's there's a lot of control a lot of censorship there, right? Yeah, yep. Okay. Everybody knows that. Yeah Okay, so then doesn't it seem like the Internet is more trouble than it's worth I mean, you know, we can move on to another topic from this But but the reality is is that okay, so getting back to the actual Bitcoin part If the Internet were to be completely destroyed then Bitcoin would cease to function as a currency would cease to function in any sort of meaningful way Atlas is technically right you could do it offline But that would be that would take away almost all of the advantages Bitcoin right which isn't which is the biggest one I think is the use of huge Is it's not the governments that would stop Bitcoin through it's a central banks And they are the biggest benefactors from our currencies and and they have the wealth to do massive things such as destroying Internet infrastructure And replacing with a more authoritarian Network, it's easy to have wealth when you print the money Yeah, I don't know. I Maybe I'm an optimist, but I don't see that I think I I see that a personal zero percent probability history on this stuff because you'll see that conspiracy theories You know, they're they're really people are real down on right now, but conspiracies are how the world changes Well, of course, I do believe I mean everything is a conspiracy if two people agree on something then it obviously it's a conspiracy But I think the likelihood of being able to stop the Internet at this point and and suddenly record stores show up in the mall is Is almost zero and I hate to end on that point This is the most likely scenario I'm just saying there are there are scenarios where this is the thing that makes the most sense Yeah, there's one thing you can count about centralized control They're gonna go with the you know with the path of least resistance that that accomplishes the most power for them That's what's gonna happen. Okay, and I hate to end it on that point where we're completely out of time We're gonna have to pick this conversation up again. Obviously we got a lot to say. I told you Yeah, so thanks for joining us. I didn't get my two cents. Let's see you tomorrow again to be a good time Stay tuned. Thank you. Tomorrow. Thanks for joining us. All right. Bye. Bye