 mwy fyddiwyd, dwi'n rhan o'i firmy tud yn eich trwysau sydd o'r rhannu gwahanol, oherwydd mae'r rhannu gwahanol o'r straf. Ond mae'n amhae o fy enw i chi gael gynhyrch? Mae'n rhan o fath o hyn o ceisio'i lw śwp deicto iechydig, mae'n llw wahanol o'i arferwad fel dyma. Oherwydd y rhaid, byddwn y dyma yn trynu os gallu ymdwyng, yn ymdweud hyn. Yn ymlaen i'n gwasanaeth, yn fawr y model gwasanaeth o'r broses, sy'n cyd-fysigon, byddai ar y sgwp o bwysigol, byddai allan o ffordd rhan oeddwn i gael i mhag oeddwn i againoedd am ddech chi'n gweithio hynny'n exploedd iawn. er mwyn ddechrau hynny'n cyd-fynol, ond ydych chi'n mynd i gyd-dogol i yw yw'r leirion a dweud y gallwn ni'n gweithio yn defnyddio! Rhaid fyddwn ni'n ddefnyddio'r gwirionedd.. i gael gwahodd. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to The Therapy Show behind closed doors with myself Jackie Jones, and the wonderful Mr Bob Cook. Dyna'r epsiwyd 65. Sefydli 65. Rydyn ni'n credu a'r modd i'w modd ar y podicol. rang y Llywodraeth 63 o Llywodraeth 64 o Llywodraeth 65 o nad hynny wedi'i gofio a oedd Y Beathal Sgol, wedi'i gofio o'ch... Ac wnaeth eich 65? Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n gweithio? Rydyn 64 rydyn ni? Rydyn ni'n gweithio yno. Rydyn ni. Rydyn ni'n 71, felly nid i ddech chi wedi'r record i fyfyn! a nid ydych yn gwneud yn 64. Mae'n rhaid i'w ddweud. Rwy'n ddweud o'r 50 bob. Yn yw. Fy hi'n ddyn nhw. Rwy'n ddweud. Rwy'n ddweud. Rwy'n ddweud y dyweddol i EGO bob. Rwy'n ddweud. Felly, yn ysgrifennu, y cyfnod yw'n ddweud yw'n ddweud. Mae'n ddweud yw'n ddweud yw'n ddweud yw'n ddweud? Rwy'n ddweud o ddweud yw'n ddweud. Prydio eu cyleme yn yictorio can다면 yn ddweud. Mae'r target yn ddweud sydd dros yr oedd. Mae'r target yn hwn i. Mae'r target yn hynnyddiol. Mae'd ''Mewnchai'r ddweud a'i gyfan�oriol Felly oedd yn hyn fydda i'u haf, sydd yn gweithio bod gyda'u schyffordd a bobl bod ydyn nhw yn gweithio, ac oedd yn gweithio sydd yn gweithio bod gweithio i'n gweithio sydd yn gweithio. a'r hoedd yn f yr unig i gen nhw, ru'n gwybod y bobl sydd yn lliwyr, ac rai'n amlwg am hyn y fath i'n mynd i hyn, ac y arddangos yn llwyr no fydd yn elwyr ychydig, Cymysgwnaeth aethraebi nid yn ymwneud yn y sylwbeth i'r systeimg. Fe wedi'i fath o'r ffordd a byddwn yn fawr. Ac mae'n defnyddio drwy arall o dwychwn am hynny ac mae'r cyd-fawr yn ddweud yn ei wneud yn ddim yn yw'r bwysig o fynd, oherwydd mae'n rhai o'r rhai o'r hynny. Mae'n gwybod yw'r fawr. Felly mae'n fawr o'r fawr o'r fawr o'r fawr, Jacky? Fawr o'r fawr o'r fawr. Ac wedi cydnodol, rydyn ni'n gweithio yng ngyllun gwybeth. Rydyn ni'n gweithio gwybeth. Mae gennym iawn, ac rydyn ni'n gweithio cydnodol sydd yn cynnwys. Ac rydyn ni'n gweithio gwybeth, rydyn ni'n gweithio gwybethau ac rydyn ni'n gweithio gwybeth. Ac rydyn ni'n gweithio gwybeth, yn y gweithio gwybeth yng Nghymru, Gwhere you have um something called vaca Pekius supervision, yeah. You learn of the supervision, you feel like have one of the other people in the group. Chaos. There's a very carries aspect to supervision, but as a therapist, you see, if you don't have supervision. You're in a very alone place. Yeah. Mae'n gweithio ar y cyhoeddiad ac mae'n gweithio'n dweud o'r hynny. Mae'n gweithio ar y cyhoeddiad, a mae'n gweithio ar y cyhoeddiad, mae'n gweithio ar y cyhoeddiad, ac mae'n gweithio'n ddiweddol yn ei gwybod, yn gweithio ar ddiweddol, yn cymdeithasol. Yn amser, byddwn ni'n cael ei ddweudio ar y cyhoeddiad, dyna, yn ymwinell i'r rhai o'r llwyf, o'r clai o'r oed, o'r hyffordd, o'r mewn llyfridd yma i'r cyfnod o'r hyffordd i'r gweithio. Felly, rydyn i'n mynd i gyd, rydyn i'n mynd i'r gweithio cyn�l clinicalau. Rydyn i'n pwynt o'r 40 ymgyrch o'r rhan o ddramau, oedd oedd yn mynd i'r mynd i'r cyfnod, oherwydd o'n dweud ymgyrch Unless I sort of do some sort of book where, you know, like learning from the patient or I talk about a vision that's of cloud material where it's actually names are changed and things like that in terms of a learning process. But I suspect they'll, you know, stay in my head till I pop off. Yeah. Yeah. And I just think supervision is good for, you know, whether you're talking about effective therapy or not, but it's good to know that you are on the right tracks with clients, particularly in the early days. Oh, as a big in the beginning, when you start seeing clients for the first time or even the first couple of years, if you call that the first stage. Yeah. Then that's vital because how are you going to know whether you're on the right track or not? That's it. Yeah. Question. Yeah. You yourself when you started seeing clients, can you imagine not having supervision? No, not at all. Because not only like you said, did they look if there's any transference or counter transference or the relationship that's going on, but it's also am I on the right track? Is this, you know, the path that I should be going down? Because if you're not in supervision, you could be going down the wrong path for quite a while before you realise this isn't actually working. It's not effective. Absolutely. And the sort of collegial discussion you have in supervision, whether it's group or individual about different options and different paths that you may or may not be going down in terms of therapeutic goals are so vital. Otherwise, you're limiting options for yourself. And like you've just said, you might actually be going down the wrong past and therefore repeating history for the client. Yeah. And ethics as well. Practising ethically, that was something I was always checking with my supervisor about whether it was ethical, you know, to see, I don't know, if I had one client and they recommended me to somebody else, would it be ethical for me to see that person? If they were a family member or they work together or something, it was good to have somebody to touch base with and just check. Oh, you know, 100% or we could have 110% and say that. Yes, absolutely. Especially at the beginning, when you're a beginning therapist, but also as you go along. I remember, and I'll pick a couple of cases here to demonstrate the fact that quite a, I don't know how long you've been practising as a therapist, probably two years or so. I was a local therapist standing in for somebody and he came in and, you know, and said quite proudly that it done well with this particular person therapy being working with for seven years or something. Oh, so he must have been practising seven years. And then went on to say, and look what he get, look what he gave me. And he got his mobile phone out, show me a picture of big painting. And said to me, yes, he gave me this wonderful painting. And you know, it's by a well known Italian artist. Oops. I said, gosh, he gave you that. Yes, yes, he did. So I said, oh, right. And what do you plan to do? Do you plan to accept this gift or what? Oh, I'm going to accept it as a mark of what I've achieved in psychotherapy. So I said, oh, oh, interesting. So who is it by? So I said, hang on a second. So I looked up and it was worth £20,000. Oh, no idea of the ethics of what that means in terms of. Taking gifts and, you know, social workers, for example, they will get probably thrown out of their social work post if they accept any types of gifts, even a £10 gift voucher. I don't know if I go that far as a therapist, but certainly we need to think about the ethics of taking gifts, but certainly a valuable gift like that. It shifts the dynamic as well somehow, doesn't it, when there's gifts exchanged? Yeah. So I was a supervisor and I was a local supervisor and we explored the ethics about all this lots and he found a way to give back the gift in a way which wasn't rejecting, but ethical. So without a supervision from me, he had never thought about the idea of what receiving gifts meant from a therapeutic standpoint. But it's understandable without somebody overseeing you. It's a very nice gesture for that person. He obviously thought the therapy was going well and wanted to give a gift and it seems perfectly harmless until you look at it for what it is and ethically. And I think there's a lot of ethical trickwires in therapy. Oh, there's another one was, and this is one for me personally, where I found out I started seeing a client who looked, the story seemed very familiar for sessions in. It turns out, turned out to be the brother, a brother I had in other words. So it wasn't till I was in supervision when I talked about that was that highlighted. And this was the beginning of my career. So there's many examples of where we can be going down the wrong path ethically. We need a supervisor, a mentor in that supervisory process that can overlook and help us on the right path. Because even the client doesn't understand a lot of the time when I've had referrals, if I've seen a mum, for example, and then they say, well, my daughter wants to see somebody, can you see them? And it's like, well, no, that wouldn't be ethical. Absolutely. And they don't always take kindly to it either. No, they don't. And you're quite right. It's a good point that the class often don't understand what we're talking about in that sense of terms of boundaries. Maybe they haven't. Maybe some of their issues around boundaries, for example, issues might be about confidentiality or whatever we're talking about here. So this is an educated part to this. The client may need some understanding of the ethics, as well as the therapist. But the therapist without supervision can easily go down into a minefield map, if you like. And the supervisor is usually a wealth of experience as well. You touched on educational therapy. That's what I enjoyed about supervision. Do you know what I mean? If it was something that I didn't fully understand, we would talk through it in supervision. You know me and my diagrams. They would explain it with diagrams. And even so much so that they'd get the book out and refer to it in the TA today or something. And we'd work through it together and role play. We did a lot of role playing supervision. I really enjoyed supervision, by the way. I had it all my career. That's 40 years, 38 years. And it's taken different shapes that have gone along. But certainly at the beginning, I used to lap up supervision from a sense of understanding and developing myself as a therapist. I think I would have got into quite a few scrapes if I hadn't had a supervisor to take my cases too. I'm sure I would, 100%. In fact, I'm sure that I narrowly missed a lot of those potholes and tripwaters by being in supervision and just, you know, talking it through before I made a decision and was told, yeah, that's not going to work. You don't want to be doing that. But had I not had somebody to talk to, it seemed perfectly logical to me. That's right. And I think for the people listening, especially perhaps people who don't know the air of therapy much, I just want to say that supervision is confidential as well. Yeah. It isn't about, you know, unconfidential space. It's a confidential space where we can take our anxieties, learnings and everything else that we've been talking about here. Ponder over and reflect over if you like. Confidentiality is the name of the game throughout the whole process of supervision. Yeah. And I think for me, one of the helpful things again, particularly in the early days was when I just stuck with a client. It's like we hit a brick wall and I didn't feel like we were, we were doing very effective work. So I could talk about what I had done and then give my ideas. And then we'd work out between us, right? Maybe this is what you need to be doing next. Yeah. And then take it back to the client and reflect on the client about the options ahead or the journey ahead. So transparency is important there. Definitely. I'm building up your own confidence having supervision made me a lot more confident as a therapist. Another thing which is important in supervision is often called the third dimension of supervision, which I think needs to be talked about is the client's fantasy of the therapist supervisor. So, for example, I was in, I've missed that for a long time, but I used to have fantasies about, oh, I wonder what her supervisor thinks about me if she takes, you know, if she takes my case to him. I'm the most dreadfully troubled person if my therapist has to take me to my, and I always remember at supervision at 12, sorry, at therapy, oh no, my therapist went to supervision at 12 o'clock. And I saw my therapist just after she came back from supervision. I think I wonder what they've been talking about and a lot of fantasies about the role the therapist supervisor has in my therapeutic developments. Yeah. So it's interesting that, isn't it? Well, I even, it is, it's really interesting. And that was one thing I always said to my clients in the early days was that, you know, obviously everything is confidential. And the person that I ever talked to is my supervisor. And, you know, obviously that is confidential. But supervisors have supervisors. Yeah. And supervisors have supervisors. And it's like a pyramid. And I've always wondered who's at the very top of that. Where does it end? Yeah. Because, you know, you supervise others, but you had a supervisor. Yeah. And that was one of mine. I used to think of it as a pyramid and think I just wonder who's who's at the very pinnacle of this pyramid. There's never really ever just two in the room. No, no. Just a therapist and the client because an ethical therapist will have a supervisor. Yeah. They may, at some time, take some uncertainties, anxieties or stuck places they have with their client. To the supervisor. And so we've got that whole process started off. And now interesting what you just said. As a client used to think about where does the, where does it end? And then maybe there's a sort of link to grandfather's and the role grandfather's played in the history. Yeah. This process we're talking about here. Yeah. So we don't supervision therapy wouldn't be effective. I think it would be a different animal. Yeah. And luck would pay a large part, I think. Yes. The words, the therapist may produce effective therapy. And I think may not. So luckily they might, or they may even in tune to be go down certain rows, et cetera, et cetera. And there may be effective therapy. But I think it's a good chance that they may go down the wrong road. Yeah. Because not every modality of therapy needs supervision as, you know, to practice. I know we do is transactional analysis, but there's a lot of NLP people out there and things like that where that's just not in the remit. They don't need to have supervision. Well, I'm not sure I call that a therapy. No, but they go to them. Yeah. It's interesting what you're saying actually. So I didn't know what you just said. I didn't know that NLP practitioners didn't have supervision. I also didn't know. And I, and it's quite, I don't know, taken me aback that there may be therapies where people don't have some sort of whatever word you want to call this. We'll call it supervisors and in this particular podcast for someone to share some of their lonely times with. Yeah. They might have peer supervision. Ah. To mean, but not necessarily. Okay. That hierarchy of supervision. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that makes more sense. I can think of some therapies that have peer supervision. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's that's a bit different. It's an interesting one. Interesting about peer supervision. It can be very useful. Yeah. It can be very useful. But you're right in TA, we have that more of a hierarchal structure that the people that we go to supervision with are people who who have been more experienced than us and have spent a long more time, a lot of time, if you like, on the clinical road. Yeah. So that is much more of a, you could call it, that is hierarchal, but I like to think about in terms of hierarchal-ness of experience. Definitely. Yeah. And there's that ethical framework that works up with it as well. For me, I don't know how I feel about peer supervision because it's usually your equals and I don't know, I don't know whether I will feel comfortable sharing about my clients. With peer supervision the same as what I would a supervisor in the clinical science, if that makes sense. That makes sense. I've never had peer supervision. Interesting. I've talked about the positives and the challenges with regards to peer supervision. I haven't had that experience myself. I've always been with supervisors who are higher up. Experience, which I can where I can learn from. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's growing as a therapist as well. Absolutely. I think the client, let's go back to the client one moment. In my experience, clients feel much more protected if they know the therapist has a supervisor. Yeah. Now, of course, not all therapists will share that, but I think it's an assumption by most clients that their therapists have access to supervisors, even if they don't use it. Yes. Yeah. I might be wrong with that. I've never really gone out in my way to check. But in my experience, clients have often said things like that. Well, do you have a supervisor? Is there somebody you can take things to? And I think clients feel perhaps a little bit more secure if they know that therapist also is human like everybody else and has somewhere to take professional issues too. Yeah. Because it is important. You know, some clients resonate with us. Some clients leave us with, you know, unfinished things that we've got to deal with as well. So, you know, as well as having personal therapy to be able to take that to your supervisor. Yeah. And also, throughout all my years or decades of being a professional therapist, A has always been very, very valuable for me. And I believe it has been for clients and I believe it does aid my therapy in terms of being more effective. But it was very important for me as I came to the end of my career and, you know, needed to inform clients that I was retiring and passing through my career. As I came to the end of my career and, you know, needed to inform clients that I was retiring and pass them on to particular people that I thought was really important. And I found it very hard that, how to say, by termination and all these different things, that supervision at the end of my career was as important at the beginning of my career. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah. Because like you say, you've been doing it for 40 years. It's a grieving process for you to a certain extent, not to be still practicing clients. Yeah. Tremendous. I'm such an advocate of supervision. I wanted to have this podcast to talk about how supervision is so effective, sorry, can aid therapy in such an effective way. And without it, the therapist, I think I believe, misses a very important professional support. Yeah. Cells and, of course, for their client. Yeah. 100% agree. So thank you for allowing me to talk about. That's absolutely fine. That and this podcast. Yeah. So anybody that's out there that, you know, isn't seeing a supervisor, then look somebody up. Absolutely. I think it's so important. And once again, I think clients feel far more assured if they know that their own therapist is human and has access to a supervisor if need be. Yeah. Totally. So in the next podcast, we're going to be looking at the retrieval of memories in the therapy process. Oh, yes. Such a wonderful conversation. I'm so looking forward to that. If I can remember, of course. Well, exactly. My memory is not what it used to be, Bobby. The muggle for us together in the next episode. OK, great. Speak to you soon. Speak to you soon.