 Good evening everyone and welcome. Welcome. Welcome to Generally, you're with Erica reddick. I am super excited to be coming to you on this Monday evening, January 11th as usual There is a tyco on go class going on for about 30 more minutes next door. So if you hear children screaming in the background That's why I Swear for real. I swear I don't know if you guys can hear it or not, but I'm super excited to be here this evening with David Perot and Chris Haseley two guys who are incredibly knowledgeable about what's going on in the city with the short-term rental market and and advocates really for for landlords and homeowners to To you know, be able to keep our private property rights Which which as you guys may know is a dirty word in Burlington You're not allowed to say things like that private property rights But that's really what we are going to be talking about this evening is what is it that the city is trying to do to? to Make it so that landlords or property owners cannot Or will be penalized for being Airbnb hosts for doing short-term rentals And just private property rights in general in Burlington how they've been infringed on over the years so if you guys want to first introduce yourselves and David, why don't you go ahead first give everybody? Tell everybody a little bit about who you are and why this topic matters to you. Well, I a Little bit of my background. I've been law enforcement since my early 20s and Eventually became a prosecutor in Rockingham County working out of several courts. So Very very familiar with the criminal justice system and You know, I have always as I endeavor into any new Business venture or something of that nature really looked into you know, the Airbnb and short-term rentals that are available on different apps as well as you know, direct advertising and So I've made it my business to really educate myself about you know, what the requirements are and what the impact is really in Burlington and what the benefits of Airbnb are and And I also have had other gig type Experiences gig economy type experience businesses where I have come face-to-face with You know hostility of new ideas coming into Burlington and the prevailing need to regulate regulate and regulate things basically into Making it nearly impossible to sustain a business model with an ever-changing legal environment Something to the conversation here regarding that and some of my experience dealing with the city and Certainly Be able to convey to you and others that may be listening here today about the benefits of how the Airbnb benefits Burlington and the the tourism that is Generated and brings new people into the city that he had to spend money on local businesses So there's a lot of upside and not a lot of downside So that's what I hope to bring to this to this forum and I've worked closely with with Chris as well, and we've had a lot of time to talk about this so Go ahead Chris. Excellent. Yeah, Chris. Tell us a little bit about you I've been a president of Burlington For over 20 years. I've been a renter for the entirety that I had time that I've been here So and I'm also a short-term rental host on the Airbnb platform And I just wanted to comment upon David's Regarding innovation and I think that that's a concern here and typically as I'm sure most of you recognize is that when a new technology or new Service or a new way of business comes along and disrupts the existing way to do things There's often a very strong and quick reaction from those who are kind of wanting to cling on to the old ways and really try to Regulate that the new approach and I think we've seen that initially as David pointed out with Uber we're seeing it now with Airbnb and We're also seeing it in Burlington with respect to food trucks And you know, I had an opportunity to wait for discussion last year And it was very clear to me that the established players in the local restaurant industry That is those who had bricks and mortar restaurants So we're really not open to the idea of food trucks coming to town which was you know kind of Unfortunate because the representatives from the city clerk's office was stating that there were a number of applicants That had been turned away because they just didn't have enough slots available So I'm of the opinion that this is something that the market should decide and in order to do that We have to have a strong competition from a number of players and overall, I think the goal of any public policy is to But you know maximize the benefit of the public good here and recognizing that you know when governments involved There's no such thing as a perfect solution There's always going to be someone who feels that perhaps they've gotten the short end of the stick and think the goal also is to kind of Minimize the number of people that feel that way, but on the whole I think government like nature has a tendency to equal Liberam and that's what I'm hoping to talk a little bit more about tonight. Yes. Yes, and for the record I want everyone to know Chris is one of my favorite people to have a conversation with about anything related to politics because We we we are sort of like opposites on the political spectrum, but there's so much that we agree on We just kind of come to it from different places And so when I was thinking about having doing a show on this topic Chris was the one person that I really really wanted to come on because he's just really passionate about it And he is really good at articulating Why he believes what he believes and I just you're my favorite person that are you with Chris And and then and Chris introduced me to David as somebody who is really knowledgeable Just a really smart guy who really understands the process And so I'm really just I'm just really grateful to have you both here so that we can educate Violenton on what's going on because That is the biggest hurdle I have found You know in a city the size of ours They're not only do we have you know a city council meeting every other week There's four hundred different committees and commissions that also meet on a regular basis Oftentimes they meet in the middle of the day when people can't attend And people with jobs and businesses and families Just don't have the ability to keep up with all of the proposed legislation All of the changes and so when we can kind of distill things down into an hour or 90 minute conversations So people can understand what their city counselors and their mayor are doing or their legislature depending on Depending on the topic. It's super important just to get that information out there So that's going to be our goal today Now what are we thinking? Oh My god, how I should have written down where I want to start The first thing is I guess for a little bit of background Chris, do you want to like catch everybody up on why we're even having this conversation? Uh, yeah, we can talk a little bit about that for sure So as I understand it the mayor sponsored a housing summit. I think it was back in the summer of 2019 That's correct. Yeah, he's facing the market and You know, there's a third has been I think for the 20 plus years that I've lived in town there's been A documented shortage of what is considered affordable housing and my understanding is that the classic definition of affordable housing means that No more than one third 33 of your income should be spent on housing And if you're you're paying more than 33 of your income on housing, that's not considered affordable And, you know, 20 years ago when I came here, um, you know, there were some constant, um conversations regarding student housing and I think that that is still impacting The situation here in burlington today and You know, it's it's think basically comes down to a supply and demand problem now To credit the mayor there's been a number of new developments that think can bring rise up on north avenue in the form of burlington college campus The stratus lofts, I believe down on st. Paul and then of course directly across the street from that the brand new college dorm that was Constructed by champlain housing and certainly that's contributing to the situation, but I think there's this Misunderstanding about the role that short-term rentals play in The burlington housing market and folks I think are kind of of the opinion that well It were exacerbating the issue when the reality is is that the number of units is I think less than three percent And you know from my perspective as someone who lived over in the beel street neighborhood for well over a decade During the time that I lived there. There was out of I think 30 something houses on the street There was one and only one that was owner occupied And the entire neighborhood along with neighboring streets on bradley street south union green street isham street and luminous street on the other side of pro street Have over a number of years probably the last 30 to 40 years become de facto student housing and If you drive through those neighborhoods, you'll see that they are largely single family homes that are either rented out as an entire house or Split up into various Separate units that are then then rented out and of course with any Income producing property the value of the property is determined by the amount of revenue that is generated by that property And that's a concern for me because I mentioned you know before I'm you know 47 years old I'm married. I have a son and you know My wife and I are now looking outside the city of burlington for a place to live because that's how far we have to go to Hit the realm of affordability We simply cannot afford a half a million dollar home in the hill section We're really not interested in getting a fixer upper at 300 to 400 thousand dollars and Well, and even even when you're talking about outside of downtown not in the hill section um The the three percent i'm curious How many of those are whole units versus? um single rooms because what what I remember of the statistics that we've heard from people who were sharing My understanding is the majority of air b&b units in burlington in the burlington area are actually Rooms um, and I think they said something like 60 percent more than 60 percent Some huge percentage were actually women over the age of 60 who were retired Single widow who were renting out extra rooms basically to cover property taxes and stuff like that That's not right Well, not entirely But there are certainly a number of folks that fit that description that are using the rental income from a short-term rental To do as you say That pay the mortgage and you know, basically keep a roof over their head And now the data that I've had here in front of me. I think that there is close to uh 400 units that um Are currently available as whole units, and I think that 274 of them approximately 71 percent would qualify as Longer term housing now that's out of approximately over 10 000 apartments in burlington Which you know, there's some quick mass that comes out to about less than three percent of the the rental market So while I think that you know, there's certainly an argument that can be made I think a more apt and appropriate market or argument Excuse me is the need to Work with our partners up on uvm And local colleges to ensure that they provide an adequate supply of housing for their students now in fairness to the students Off-campus housing is is particularly attractive and and it's um, I think even more so attractive now given the changing regulatory requirement regarding recreational cannabis As you are probably aware the university of vermont and pretty much all institutions of higher education receive federal funds and currently Under federal law Cannabis is on a schedule one which means that it is illegal And so in order to maintain the revenue stream from the federal government The universities and colleges here in vermont are required to essentially enforce federal law Even though the state of vermont has itself Legalized recreational cannabis So I think you know if you have an option and you're to live on campus You're a student and you live on campus and you have to worry about the knock and sniffs Or you could maybe go down and get a place on buell street and you know do your thing in the privacy of your own home I think that there's certainly um can understand that perspective for sure Erica, I think you lost your audio I was uh muting myself because you can hear my husband typing background So thank you, david. I appreciate that so uh, UBM is is the elephant in the room that it seems like none of our regulators want to talk about When you bring it up and when you say things like You know the university of vermont owns a Over a billion dollars worth of assets in burlington and pays zero taxes and that um The majority of like a huge portion of rental property in burlington is like you said chris de facto student housing and then They and then those same people who don't want to address that giant elephant in the room Then pivot and demonize air bnb and short term rental hosts as being the problem Like we're taking all of these houses or all these apartments off the market when When it's just not the case like you said, I think it's three you said three percent and when now David, I'd like you to speak to this. We know that the that vermont our primary Economy is is tourism It's tourism and when indeed. Yes, and and so we've spent burlington and vermont have spent millions and millions of dollars to be To beautify the area to make it attractive to tourists to the college students And their families and and to attract people and now they're in many ways. They're trying to like shrink the the average person's ability to also be part of that Economy, um, would you speak to that a little bit and your experience? I'd like to start off, you know with uh, you know The elephant in the room that you were talking about the the uvm issue You know, they're the big guys. Okay, and they They affect the housing market in burlington greater than anything else uh by the factor of you know hundreds actually and it's it's um So the regulatory environment that's being um Endeavored upon To air bnb and short-term rental people. We're the little guys. We're the little guys. Maybe air bnb is a big corporation but it's empowering the little guy to participate in an economy And to better their financial situation and especially during this past year with People losing maybe their second job or losing both of their jobs. You know, it gives them a great deal of ability for some flexibility and You know, perhaps being able to even, you know, rent out their space if it's an attractive space and it meets the air bnb guidelines and cleanliness and and amenities and uh, You know the majority of people when they come to burlington want to stay either in the country You know, which is not burlington per se But when they come to vermont, they want to stay in the country in the mountains and take in that and then the others are coming here for you know, the The downtown experience the restaurants church street marketplace and so forth And so the air bnbs that exist within the the confines of the downtown area, you know Really expand Uh, the ability for people who want to come to burlington and experience it not out of a sterile hotel room experience, uh, not in this environment where you know, uh They're basically in a you know, a massive building and so forth, especially with the concerns with You know, the pandemic and so forth people You know following the guidelines the covet guidelines set out by air bnb and uh, those possibly could be expanded However, it gives them the option to be able to bring their family to a home or an apartment and uh And experience the city in a real way And that has that has two benefits. First of all, you have a captive audience in the downtown who is You know, really those are people that are going to be coming and spending money at the shops They're people that are going to be spending money at the restaurants. Whereas, you know, uh, you know Keeping, you know apartments available or regulating air bnb out of business with the idea Which I don't think it would even achieve it, but um So that, you know, college students or just people general people working in the area are not going to be coming here for A week or 10 days or a couple of weeks or even a month You know, these folks that come in on the air bnb are hitting restaurants every single night they're going and shopping at patagonia and And uh all the shops and so forth along, you know, uh church street and uh enjoying the waterfront and going to concerts and Really are here to participate in the tourism of vermont Excuse me and uh So, uh, there is that and I think I think it's really interesting that You know, one of the things that the the new charter change or the rules proposed to do is to Have add a $7,000 impact fee per room And chris, what is it when it's the whole unit? It's like $25,000 or something, right? You know, i'm not sure if that's still in the most recent proposal coming out of the uh committee Do you want to touch on that and just wanted to you know, kind of uh expand upon what david It said about the downtown core for those who are not familiar the downtown core is typically defined as the area bordered by pro street on the north um south winewski street On the east and main street on the south with of course the lake being Now there are some folks that'll say well, you know, we will go over another block to maybe south union street too So you can go take that into consideration, but um The concern that I have and i'm particularly regarding this housing replacement fee is this is another area Which has not really come up in the discussion I think it bears Some additional consideration is the fact that the city is now proposing potentially to impose a housing replacement fee on short-term rental hosts But on an annual basis as I understand it But there are plenty of single family homes scattered throughout the downtown core That have been converted into doctors offices lawyers offices dentist's office restaurants other mixed-use retail establishments And as I understand it they simply pay a one-time conversion fee So it's kind of a question equity And why are the short-term rental hosts being, you know treated differently than everyone else and to So i'm so i staying in this vein. I wonder what the difference is between When we're talking about okay, you want What kind of revenue is brought in right because airbnb hosts have to pay, you know the Uh, the what the heck is it called the rooms and meals tax or whatever those in meals tax? Yes, right we collect and pay that then Let's say we were to remove airbnb. We'll just use airbnb as an example Let's say we remove that from the marketplace in burlington What do we lose in sales tax revenue in meals and rooms tax revenue? And all of the other revenues that are gained and the economic value created by those tourists How much would the city in the state lose? You know, that's a very good question to which I don't think we haven't answered just yet And while the city has been very good about providing a lot of data regarding housing and the vacancy rates and availability and the affordability They have yet to conduct any type of economic impact study to address those very things now I have intentions to follow up with city hall to request some data Regarding the rooms and meals tax to see what we gain because that's something we can quantify But clearly as as mr. Perot has has alluded to there is an economic multiplier effect going on here and in pre-covid times It's not just going out to the restaurants and going to concerts But maybe it was going to the flint theater to see a show Perhaps going down to the vermont comedy club to take in a local comedian Or any number of different things perhaps a festival on the waterfront Yeah, and as I've stated before I think you know Policy needs to be based on facts and data And I think that this is a critical piece of data that we simply just don't have right now It is a very complex multifaceted issue And my hope is that we can continue the discussion while making sure that all the relevant players are at the table and have a Voice in the process Well, and I think too it's really important, you know David and chris you guys have both Talked about different kinds of people who would use short term rentals and why A lot of people don't realize that there are hundreds of traveling nurses and other staff Surgical techs Oh, what is it called lna's and things like that at our local hospitals nursing homes and things like that. Yeah, so We have people They I don't know why i'm not going to presume to understand The staffing issues at the hospital But I do know that there are tons and tons and tons of people who come here Because there are there are short term staff And now if we get rid of the short term market, where are all those doctors nurses lna's Surgical techs going to live, you know, because they're not here for long periods of time. They're not going to come sign a lease Uh for some place And and then stay for a year or two But they do provide a critical service that we need in burlington And you know my I'd like to speak that Yeah, go ahead Go ahead david. Well, I'd like to I'd like to speak to the you know um From the legal side of things the equal protection um, you know clause of our constitution, you know, um Equal protection and equal equality and equal rights across the board which seems to be Something that burlington gets behind quite well And they're also get behind quite well. Um, you know At least in in um in theory The the little guy and making sure that they have, you know, that that major corporations and and and big operations don't take over the city um, you know, and uh Mayor Weinberger, uh, you know as part of his uh his platform and speaking about burlington has said that he wanted downtown burlington and burlington to be a livable city and um, you know, these regulations that they're attempting to put in place or curtail Uh, certain types of short-term rentals and things like that really, you know, um Are detrimental to that the philosophy of a livable city because just as you have mentioned We have people that come into town for a number of reasons they might be coming to The uh, they might be coming to the uvm medical center for a surgery and want to Get a short-term rental So that they have the privacy of not being in a hotel around a bunch of people being in menu immunocompromised And and those types of concerns as well. So, um, and uh You know, if You know, you have like the big the the big bear in the room uvm that takes up most of the housing in burlington as it is You know, what kind of you know, what kind of impact fees do they reimburse the city for? to uh, because they're obviously getting, um Rather substantial tuition to bring these students in for Essentially a short-term rental. They're there for they may rent for You know six months and be gone and those places become vacant again And you know, certainly those places that become vacant that are suitable for short-term rentals Depending on what someone's looking for in the location, you know, uh There shouldn't be any restrictions on those landlords either And they shouldn't have to pay huge, you know an impact fee or anything else certainly The rooms and meals tax which comes directly before the payments to the hosts by the way Is pulled out by airbnb and sent directly to the city And uh, so the city is seeing Many many areas of benefit. They're seeing The ability of tourism the access to the hospital the uh, people who come here that want to experience the city in a real way And and uh, stay at an airbnb in a neighborhood and You know as they apply and search for employment here in in in vermont and in burlington Whether it be at the hospital or at the university or something of that nature They get to try on what it would be like to live in the city instead of coming into an unknown So there's a number of reasons why people come here. The primary one is usually tourism But certainly the travel nurses that come for three months at a time to help Shore up the staffing shortages at university medical center and as well as You know teachers and such that come to you know, perhaps do presentations and things and The the other thing I want to speak to also about the airbnb and short-term rental situation is is that Burlington puts a great deal of effort this past year, of course covid really messed things up But the entire summer Every single weekend in burlington. There is another big event Which is terrific and it's one of the things that drew me to burlington um, it is you know between the bicycle races and the brew fest and everything else it is There is actually a shortage of hotel rooms. Yes. So what happens is is these people come in You know or try to come here to enjoy these activities and participate in burlington's economy and tourism and They have to stay an hour and a half out of the city to try to find a place to stay Oh, and then you have to have cars which they hate that people are driving and there's not working, you know, rather than just Yes, of course. Yes and uh, so there's this um, you know, there's there is a A benefit with every single rental not just oh Off my losses and this and that it's not like a regular tax return type of thing It's based on actual sales rooms and meals if you book This money is taken right out before your payment is sent by any of these, uh, uh, you know short-term rental Companies like airbnb and sent directly to the city And uh, I don't have those numbers off hand chris. I don't know if you do Of exactly what the revenues have been in the past year from rooms and meals taxes from airbnb You know stays But I can speak to that as far as uber goes I can tell you a bit about that and what we encountered when we started that Let's put a pin in that for now. Um, I know we don't have the exact numbers right now because we haven't been able to get them from the city but um One of the things that I think is really important that you touched on that I that I don't want to get That I don't want to move path or don't want to gloss over Is this idea of picking winners and losers? It's as if the city is deciding Who the winners and losers are going to be and I often wonder sometimes and chris Maybe you might have an opinion on this when When we see the people who are the landowners and the property owners who have a vested interest in making sure that their property values stay high And therefore rents stay high and things like that and then they squeeze out these smaller entrepreneur type businesses these gig type businesses um Do you see any of that? I mean I'm asking you to and you may not want to say what your opinion is here Maybe I'm asking what's that word where I'm like asking you to guess something. There's like a legal term for it um I'm leading the witness or something. Um, but Like do you see maybe question? Yeah, your point Erica. I agree and again I want to remind everyone that I am a renter and I have been for I think 21 years at this point and Again, if this is a multifaceted Issue here, but I do agree that you know at the end of the day if you have property You should be able to make your own decisions on it and By being a renter I have met a number of small landlords but maybe one or two buildings that they have And a lot of them turn to short-term rentals Because they've had one or more bad experiences with a long-term tenant Now I can speak now I live in a multi-unit building and I can speak that there's a handful of us that are renters that Do work as Airbnb hosts because we have traveling job and our landlord is aware of that But you know, I've had the experience where you know, one of the neighbors thought it would be a good idea to How shall I say? reenact some cooking scenes from Breaking Bad and so while there's There's there's there's two sides to every story and I think what happens here Is that you run it to the issue of economy as a scale and there's you know, probably three or four large Uh property management companies here in Burlington aka landlords that have you know upwards of a hundred or more units And eventually you get to a point where you know, it's you're stretched really thin and you know There's an issue of people complaining and so the city attempts to to Remediate the issue and I think some of the smaller players end up getting wrapped up in Well-intentioned regulation that really puts a hamper on their ability to make a living or to derive benefit from the property that they own and pay taxes on and um You know, I just think that people are going to gravitate to an area or an opportunity Uh with greater economic benefit. That's just economics 101 and as david has said previously You know, when you have a short-term renter who's coming here as a tourist They're one they're spending money, you know in the accommodation Whether it's a short-term rental or a hotel room regardless either way The city is collecting uh revenue in the forms of the rooms and meals tax Which I think is uh either around 10.5 or 11 percent I don't remember the the number off the top of my head But oftentimes they're going out to eat whether it's lunch or dinner or breakfast They're going to an event. Maybe they head off to a brewery tour. Maybe they go to a ghost tour Maybe they head off down to the farmers market down on um pine street Or any any number of things maybe they decide to go down to the waterfront or heck Maybe they go all the way up to the end of north avenue visit charlie's boathouse and decide to rent kayaks for the afternoon Uh and and take uh take in the natural beauty that burlington has to offer and that is the multiplier effect that I don't think that we see Uh brought on by longer-term tenants who are really oftentimes struggling to survive Because of the issue with the student housing when you know, um folks that are in that market can charge Uh a very substantial amount of money to uh for the the properties that they have and in my view I think the city um Has not done a very good job of ensuring the health of the neighborhood now I did speak to someone who works in the housing industry a while back and I think it was the same conversation about what constitutes an affordable housing um And the the recollection I have is that for a neighborhood to be quote unquote healthy There needs to be a good mix of both renters and long-term homeowners and again from my perspective as a long-term renter You know Essentially being forced out of the city because we cannot find an affordable You know home here in the city because a lot of the suitable properties have been converted into rental units For the soil and exclusive purposes of housing College students and while that may be uh great for the individual property owners. It's not really Advantages for those of us who would like to stay here and raise a family That's pricing us out of the market. Well, and I think that's it seems like you know, it's funny because I made the graphic for this show as being the landlords association versus the tenants union And because it seems like that's the way all of these conversations are framed You know, it's us versus them. They're the bad guy. We're the victim, you know, whatever, you know fill in the blank But the reality as as far as I can tell is is just bad Um zoning management. So we have all of these regulations about where you can or cannot build You know a 10 unit housing and this is in the state of Vermont generally So it's I'm sure it's different and more in Burlington, but Last I knew It was a hundred thousand dollars in impact fees and environmental studies to build a 10 unit apartment complex And that's before you put a shovel in the ground or even drawn an architectural drawing And so like how can they blame existing property owners for being the problem when they make it impossible to build anything? Well, I think that there's something to be said for the regulation piece there now I'm not a developer and I can't speak very well to that process process, excuse me That's uh the realm of my experience. Um, but the other issue that kind of compounds it is There's just not a lot of available land in Burlington to Uh build on unless of course, you know, you take into consideration the big giant hole And putting it politely in the middle of downtown and you know, David and I were speaking just the other day that you know That we thought that that would be a great site for the city to you know Encourage some development there and if they're not able to deal with the private sector then maybe you know the um They can cut a deal and make it happen But there's also a lot of room for what they call infill construction Where there are certain areas of town where they can allow for buildings to be built up Where like it's only a one-story building, but it could be a three or a five-story building But again there the regulatory process is so onerous. Nobody will do it Yeah, there's certainly some height restrictions there and I have some familiarity with the the type of infill that your development Uh that you're speaking of as I understand that that was quite fashionable and and bogey in the early 80s Um, you know and the concern there I think from folks that I've talked with is is that when you start putting That uh level of density in a traditional neighborhood, you're losing green space You know and there's something to be said for green space, particularly if you're a small Young family trying to raise kids. You want to have that backyard. Um, and when you start putting in the densities There's trade-offs as there are you know with everything and again It goes back to making sure all of the appropriate stakeholders are at the table They have a voice in the process and really trying to find a way to maximize the public good In a way that minimizes the number of people who feel like they've they've gotten the short end of the stick Um, I don't know that I have all the answers But I do know that if we bring the right people to the table and we have some good Conversations and we act in good faith that I think that we'll eventually get there Um now David Oh, I'm sorry. No go ahead David on on something here um, you know, uh the city is also Uh benefiting doubly because all of these properties that are being used for short-term rentals and air bnb and so forth and, um Uh are they're collecting property taxes on the property Um, and they're also collecting rooms and meals when anybody rents out, you know a room or or the unit Or a house so they're getting money on both sides. Well, let's not forget about the registration fee either Oh, yeah, right and Yes, you know, yeah, sorry keep going there. Um, but you know, there's you know You talk one of the one of the big concerns is is you know property rights here and um does the city Like to draw a reference to what chris, uh had said when we talked about the big giant hole in the middle of Burlington the big giant ugly hole that's been there for years now and, uh, you know, it seems like, uh The people who are trying to work towards the betterment of Burlington Uh Are overlooking the big giant hole in front of them and trying to regulate And micro manage every single aspect of everything And try to manage everything when they can't even manage what they have on their plate now and, uh, they're creating as uh chris and I have discussed many times and I have to credit him with this statement that Um that he brought to this particular discussion is that they are, you know, they're regulating in search of You know in search of a problem The problem, you know, they're The fact is is that, you know, even even in, um The buildings, you know, that i'm familiar with what people have air b&b's in the downtown each of those buildings have already Regulated by the city an allotment of affordable housing It has to be set aside for affordable housing and vouchers through the vermont housing authority And any new development that goes in any new buildings that go in or any renovations That convert a building from one purpose to housing There has to be allotments for affordable housing and they have to be Apartments that can be vouchered through the vermont housing authority So it's not as if someone's going in and saying, okay Here's this great new building that's been renovated and it's just going to be sucked up by all people doing air b&b It's there are already provisions of protection in place That, you know protect You know to some degree the availability of somebody who wants to live in the downtown and work in the downtown Perhaps not have a car and be able to walk to their job on shirt street And and and those things are available now you could be working at a convenience store downtown and walk across the street and um, you know, uh Based on income be able to establish You know housing through vermont housing authority and other programs. So You know, it's you know, they're they're trying to squelch, you know, free enterprise and You know, and I loved your comment erica about the you know, the you know the the just the the massive amount of Regulatory bodies that seem to exist this committee and that committee and so forth and so on and The more committees you have you have people who go in with the best of intentions, but they feel as if they're not doing something like imposing some type of regulation or new ordinance and and you know in their tenure That they're not doing their job And you know So it's like, you know, what can we dream up now? What can we do? What can we possibly come up with? You know, let's oh air b&b or uber, uh, you know, they and and Not to get off of you know short-term rental thing But burlington sees these as opportunities to regulate which like they did with uber And you know, uh, and I think it came down to economics eventually You know my personal experiences with you know doing uber in burlington Was that the city From the parking people through the police department, you know, uh, we're extremely hostile to uh uber drivers Uh in the city and uh, we're constantly constantly being pulled over harassed our cars banged on while we were trying to pick up and drop off passengers and you know, um, you know You'd be pulled over because you were driving in a neighborhood at three o'clock in the morning You know and then they were harassing people over having an uber light in the front window and trying to say that it's a blue light And that's the it's our color the police You know and you know, there's all of this You know, but when they looked at the numbers and they took all the cab companies combined And I know this is a bit off topic, but it is pertinent to this when they took all of this Um all the cab companies and added up the fees that they paid to the city You know based on you know, they have per ride You know taxes if they paid to the city as a cab company or an individual cab operator Within within I believe the second year of uber being in burlington Um, I think the number isn't this is very roughly stated. I'm just going to give you a very ballpark Example, but this was in a seven days article. Um, where I first saw these statistics Um, there was something like in a particular quarter There was 20 000 collected from all of the cab companies that service burlington combined And there was something like 80 000 of fees collected in that same time period from uber So, you know, uh, it took me actually going to the police department Speaking with the chief of police and the deputy chief about the constant harassment, which was the first step Which didn't really seem to get much traction and we still continue to be harassed But then when the city saw the amount of revenue they were bringing in they changed their tune So, um, you know, and now it's you know a staple in burlington and in most cities The people are looking for the more personal and the more direct and and quick service of uber over a cab company And certainly there's room for both in the market And now that being said, you know, thanks I did, uh, I will say because uber is such a thing now There was one time I went out and I went to burlington out in downtown burlington I went out dancing and it was two o'clock in the morning And I and there was no ubers running and I was like, I don't even know how to get home without an uber Oh my goodness, I wonder if people have that feeling I think these days Yeah, so what you got back to one of the organizations that you brought up earlier, which was the burlington talent attendance union now i'm i'm not Associated with them But I think that they bring an important voice to the to the discussion as well And I applaud them for the work that they're doing certainly I think we can all agree that they have a first amendment right to organize and I i'm glad that they have And I think that the folks that belong to that organization as I understand it are really typically ordinary vermonters and I know that for them and the stuff that I've read affordability is a key issue which again ties into Um, some of the issues that we've talked to with uvm And it's it's not that we want to keep pointing the finger at uvm in place in the blame I think that that's one aspect of the problem, but it's an important aspect Needs to be addressed and again tying back to what I said about the downtown core with Buildings being converted into non residential uses I think we've seen that up often in the campus district where we have a number of old victorian homes They're now being used for offices for various departments of the university As well so But back to the the topic of of affordability one thing that stuck out to me here And so I had an opportunity to speak one of the gentlemen that runs a Food cart down in the church street marketplace in the space in front of city hall between main street and college street And you know, I was quite shocked to learn that the the permitting fees to operate a food cart was something like $2,700 a year It was just like the ridiculously high now one of the programs that I I'm familiar with here in town And I think it's a great program And I really want to give them a shout out is the micro business development program And you know in the olden days, you know, maybe 10 15 years ago people would like start food carts You know as a business And and it was kind of a stepping stone to bigger and better things and a great example of that is You know the folks down on the waterfront with the skinny pancake who began their operations I want to say 2003 2004 as a food cart on church street And now You know the whole reason this issue came up is the city's ordinances relating to food trucks Date back to 1995. They're like, you know 25 years old and under those current regulations The downtown core has designated spaces and only two of them Are designated for food trucks one of those licenses also belongs to a brixen mortar restaurant here in the downtown core Which uses the truck mainly for catering events and then the other guy Had a permit and was operating right around the corner On college street and um, you know, he was only paying $300 a year for his permit And you know, there were folks on you know church street. There were up in arms about this Well, why do we have to pay, you know, $2,700 while this guy's paying, you know, 300 or 500 or whatever it was And you know, they think they make a very good point and from my perspective, you know I think that that's just a case of better business and I suspect that the operator of the food truck Maybe did his homework did some investigation was like jeez. You know if I move 300 feet around the corner I can get a permit I got a food truck and not have to pay these exorbitant fees which kind of leads me to What what's going on with the marketplace? I mean they charge these fees for whatever and it seems like it's going into Marketing or something because it's clearly not going into maintenance and I can tell you, you know, take a walk up The marketplace take a left there on what is it bank street head over towards, uh, you know Henry's diner take a look at the at the ground and the brixie there, you know, missing brix It's just it's woefully un-maintained and while I certainly commend The city's leadership for building new Construction for the residential I think there's something to be said for you know, bringing us back to basics and you know Rebuilding burlington and and keeping uh and maintaining what we have and that's you know Our sidewalks and making sure that they get cleaned in the winter and it's it's not just about Having the little truck come through on plow a path I mean it would be nice to actually have the entire sidewalk clear so that when people come into the downtown court They can actually step out of their vehicle onto the sidewalk and not Okay, so wait Yeah, it's a little off topic I'm gonna bring us back But what I hear you saying is that the city should stick to doing the business of the city rather than regulating everybody's personal private businesses But one of the questions I want to ask and this is one of those things that You're not allowed to say because if you do you're a big mean baddie And and it means you hate people and you hate poor people and you hate everybody Um, but I want I really don't understand this idea Like why do people believe that they have the right to live in my home Why is it that the city believes or that the tenants union believes or that anybody believes That they have some right to my property This is the thing that I find so confusing Why is it that if I've worked incredibly hard and I you know, I'm a small business owner I work about four trillion hours a week um On my business let alone, you know, my personal endeavors like this podcast doing politics Up being a landlord maintaining the property doing all of that Why does anyone believe that they have a right to my labor That's what I can't figure out does and that might be too much of you Before I access how much time do we have left is that you know, I I think that that's really a symptom of a much larger problem And it's the you know the overarching wealth inequality in this country And when people can afford to make a living You know, it's a problem and I have always believed that if you full-time work you work 40 hours a week You should be able to put a roof over your head and food on the table And there was a time in this country some you know 50 60 years ago when it was, you know Possible for one person working 40 hours a week to make enough money to put a roof over their head and food on the table for a family of four and you know, we we can get into you know, any number of discussions about the income there, but At the end of the day, we have a large number of folks here in burlington that are really struggling to Pay the rent and put a roof over that and even more so now in the middle of the covid pandemic and while I always believe that You know more building more housing is certainly going to help the problem I also think that we need to be mindful that not everyone is As fortunate as some of us may be and I think it's there's a social good that has to be done in it You know, I feel like folks maybe need to consider How they can contribute to the to the betterment of society Now I don't disagree with that, but you know, I'm not rich I take care of you know, my husband and I work very hard. We take care of my mother And it used to be that there were multi-family households So this idea a lot of times you see, you know single mothers and this is not a cut on single mothers But you see single parents You know older folks living by themselves rather than in multi-generational households so Yes, we used to be able to do more with less But but that was because people did that as a team and as a unit and as a family and so I was just saying that you remember that the um, you know, I think the fabric of society has changed What constitutes a household has changed and um, you know to your your comment, uh That we in our prior conversation that we had perhaps the you know The adult children have had to move away to find better economic opportunity and mom and dad or You know are left are left at home. It's you know, people have to sometimes move for better to improve their their situation um, I don't know the the answer to that but um I do believe that you know, if you work full time 40 hours a week, you ought to be able to make uh and put a roof over your head now Um, we've seen a lot here in the pandemic We've heard a lot about essential workers And it is my opinion that if you are deemed to be an essential worker You should be paid an essential wage and you should be able to make enough money to do just that Put a roof over your head food on the table and oh and while we're at it. Let's give them some health care too Let's not go there. Okay, because that is not what this conversation is about um, but I do want to I do want to weigh in on on on the on your statement, Erica You know that you know like you say i'm not wealthy, you know and and and I think I think people are of the impression that people that do These short-term rentals and air b&b's are somehow privileged and have you know a tremendous income And they're just using their income to you know expand and you know Do this air b&b business and this is a new gig and it's a way for them to make money But this is something that's entry level for any person As long as their landlord permits them And I can't think of a good reason why the landlord wouldn't permit it Because uh in order to run an air b&b business You have to have a spotlessly clean beautifully maintained space And you have to keep it that way. So that's good for landlords It also you know, you might have someone who has an apartment a young lady or a young man And they have an apartment or a studio by themselves in the downtown And they go home for a couple of months and they want to be able to keep their apartment And they can't be affording to you know, keep the rent paid and maybe go out and help mom and dad or Go on a vacation so they can actually go into the air b&b site They can set it up do the photographs go through the background check And follow all the legal rules and so forth and their account is set up You know the city is getting revenue and this provides a a great source of income Not a tremendous source of income, but some income to Help these people along so it is a lot of little guys that are doing this these are people who are Just like as we go through the gig economy, which is the you know The buzzword for the last couple of years here with uber and lyft and Instacart and all these different, uh, you know uber eats and all these things People are finding ways to make income in less traditional ways and you know, uh, how you know It's essentially a way to help to Employ yourself while you're working and so forth and employ, you know other ways to to get revenue into your household And it may be the difference between Having to go to the city and say geez, you know, I need housing assistance or I need You know, uh food stamps or you know that kind of thing or or taxing on other, you know programs That are out there in burlington It's helping to keep people from falling, you know falling through the cracks too as well You know as well as providing a great source of you know, um Service to burlington Because when we come in parents weekend for example, I want to just say Parents weekend for example just one of the days One of the big days you cannot find an air b&b or a hotel room virtually anywhere in chittington county And so these people that you know might say i'm going to go stay with a friend for this week And i'm going to make my place available and list it up on air b&b and Have that income the city gets their piece of the pie. They don't have to chase Down these individual tenants or or property owners for the rooms and mail stacks because it's already withdrawn immediately right out of the payment Before it receives, uh, it goes to the host So, you know, it's really something that is not requiring regulation and the only regulation I think that they need to actually engage in if any is Things to do with health and safety not interfering with capitalism and the ability to be the captain of your own ship and a mastery of your own destiny financially and also to you know, participate in running a business and Uh, you know and that can lead on to other things like chris was talking about the food carts You might start out one place and end up in you know in a whole different area and you might expand upon things End up being able to save up enough enough money to buy a rental property And do what you want with it and you know the city you know, uh Should not be stepping in on uh, especially with you know People having other motives as well, you know a competitive rental market and so forth to be able to to influence the city to advantage themselves by by knocking another concept out of the way and you know, and that's where I get into this you know the equality across the board of people to be able to go and Have the have their property rights and their ability and also take on the risk and the expense of setting these places up It's not like you're just ready to go There's investments in in linens and towels and all this stuff and all these short-term rentals and You know, I remember years ago even 15 years ago renting cottages on lake champlain You know and you know And that was fine and that was a huge business and still is for people who own these seasonal cottages And they rent them out by the week of the month to people coming up to want to have the Vermont experience Whatever that may mean to them, you know really made a good case here earlier It's just a few seconds to go about the you know the case for why individual tenants should be able to participate in the Short-term rental market and I think that you know It's a question of equality of opportunity. It should not be subject to just the people who actually own the property but You know the folks that live there should be able to to rent out if they have the appropriate Agreements in place and take for example as david said, you know, you have someone who maybe is a college student They you know are studying abroad for six months. They have a nice place. They've secured a long-term affordable lease Then they'd like to keep it when they come back or maybe they just don't want to be hassled with having to try to find a new Place or maybe it's like one of my neighbors who works in the nonprofit sector and spends Six months out of the year down in africa or in Central america doing doing work. So Certainly, you know, this should be open to anyone who would like to get involved In the market Now i'm going to bring us back It is it is very well said and i'm going to come back to this other conversation that that got skipped right over Why do people believe that they have a right to other people's property? Now chris, you and i have talked about this a lot and you know that i'm a very um Charitable person my husband and i don't need a ton of money and time Uh, we also rent out our apartments and our rooms for less than what the market rate is because we think that it's highway robbery Um, and we want to make sure that we have good people. That's why we've had long-term renters Um, we would rather they stay But you know when we're talking about college kids or people who don't care about the place and then they trash it Uh, because that happens. I mean we've had to evict people We've had our property Trashed by people who don't care And this idea that the city has the right to force me To rent to people when it's when I work for it I pay the mortgage. I take all the risk I'm responsible for everything this idea that I should be forced To rent to people that maybe I don't want to I I That is the thing that I just cannot get over and and I and don't say well They're you know people, you know, don't make enough money because that is a whole other conversation That can be had Why is it that people believe they are owed anything by anyone else? Why do people believe they have the right to live in burlington as an example? Like maybe if you don't make enough money, you just can't live in burlington And that's an ugly thing to say, but it's these questions that nobody seems to ask I mean, you know, my wife shares a similar perspective and we would love to stay in burlington But we've had a very difficult time finding, you know, a reasonable affordable home That's in relatively good condition that we can actually afford Um as for your question, I'm not sure that people think that they have a right to you know individual private property But I do believe that there is a basic human right to be able to put a roof over your head and put on the On the table, um, and I can't really you know, it's Why you know But why does that mean my house? What why does that mean my house and and if I don't do it? I'm punished for it You should be able to rent it out not rent it out. You should be able to determine whether it should be long term or short term Um, you know, that's that's in the perspective that I have and I think you know if you Look at the issue of affordability. I mean, obviously we have some big factors weighing in on you know That the big elephant in room that you alluded to but again, I think you know, there's some basic supply and demand going on here And you know, I know that there's you know some properties here the large parcels that are being used for I should say recreational purposes right now. They're up in the hill section Uh, you know might be a great place to maybe look at building some housing, but Yeah Yeah, no, um, David. Did you want to say something? Well, um I believe that you know, uh Burlington needs a wake-up call To restore kind of like what chris said, you know, go back to basics a bit here Um, and certainly they should not in any way shape or form be Telling people what they can and cannot do with their property. I mean if you want to go You know, for example, you know like new york city Um If you want to live on park avenue, you have to pay the price to live on park avenue The city doesn't say well, you have to have affordable housing, you know In these buildings in park avenue, you know, and uh, what it which is a you know considerably liberal city I think we can all agree You know You know, uh, even there they understand that, you know If you want to live in a really nice neighborhood in a downtown dynamic area with bars and restaurants around you You're going to pay a premium for that And you know, and if you are looking for housing, uh, certainly everybody has a right to A right to a roof over the head, but you know, it also isn't a gift, you know The american spirit is that you go out and work hard And everybody works hard and you know, you find a way and you make your way through life. You don't just You know, uh, you know, it's not a handout And the city already has things in place like the Vermont housing authority and so forth where people can go and Find affordable housing not just within burlington, but maybe the monoski or south burlington and so forth And as you stretch out in cold chester, you know, there are other areas Um the downtown jewel of church street, which as chris well put quite well, which is in a serious Disrepair And as a person that has trouble with his legs, I can tell you I've stumbled many a times out of there with, you know With bricks missing You know right in the middle of church street, you know plates that have slipped manhole covers that are loose You know and uh, you know I've seen a dramatic change in the appearance of of the downtown area In the last 20 years dramatic change And uh, not for the good Chris, what was that? I said, I think particularly under the current administration where the focus has been on new construction And maybe not as much focus on on maintaining what we have but To circle back to your previous question and to kind of build upon some of the things david said I'm also thinking that there may be a little bit of a disconnect between the housing needs and the type of housing That's available and as I understand it single room occupancy is a is an issue But again that comes back to zoning that comes back to regulation one of the biggest elements I found to resolving this or as I understand it has been the parking requirement and You know, I would shout out to the city and give them credit They've taken steps to address that so as to make it easier to build and I think that You know, obviously we have a limited capacity of vacant land in the city Hence the need to you know, maybe look at infill or other types of density But I think building up may certainly be a one option But then you're going to run into the argument of you know, well, that's going to you know Alter the the character of the city in the skyline. So it's again It's there's multiple different points of view and trying to you know, bring everyone together to come to a solution It can sometimes be quite akin to like herding cats, but At the end of the day We've got to find ways to make it easier for the people to build the kind of housing that is needed and that is ultimately affordable Yeah, and that's what I would like to see people sit down and have real substantive conversations about what Actually can be done meaningful things that can be done Ways that the private sector and private people can help those in need and to make up for some of these issues because You know, I've been I've been pretty much homeless before I've been on section 8 housing before You know, a lot of times people think that when I when I talk about this stuff that it's coming from a place of Oh of privilege, you know, oh, you're just a landlord white lady. So you don't know anything And it's like no, I've also been, you know, I'm in recovery. I'll celebrate 12 years sober this year You know, that was not a good time in my life I've got the assistance that I needed to get on my feet and I don't begrudge anyone that But I also lived with my family. I busted my behind. I got myself sober You know, I made sure to You know, I was able to kind of put the pieces back together and get off Of the assistance because I didn't want to be on it. You know, I felt like For me personally, it was like if it made me feel You know, I didn't want to be dependent on the government. I didn't I didn't want to do that now I do have That is not to say that everyone has the same opportunities That is not to say that everyone has the same skills or the same abilities because they don't That's why I believe it's my responsibility as a person to Open my home up and offer rents that are reasonable It's when the government is trying to tell me that I have to do it And then they want to punish me for it if I don't That's where I have a real problem Yeah, I have to say that I agree with that 100% and you know, I think Burlington seeing That there's an issue and people knowing okay, it's really hard to find a good apartment in Burlington Let's face it. Okay. I know I looked for one It took me two months Of searching to find a decent apartment in in the Burlington area And I actually moved into south Burlington first And then an opportunity became available in the downtown and you know, so I grabbed that up when I had the opportunity and you know, um You cannot regulate Burlington out of a housing problem. You can't regulate Okay, especially when there is a massive amount of regulation that inhibits as we discussed earlier inhibits the ability for say um a developer to go in and put up A unit somewhere, you know, where they you know, whether it be 50 apartments or 100 apartments or whatever And you know, they should be lifting all of the regulations and restrictions that they've put in place Certainly we have to be cognizant of the environment and the impact on the area and all those things But it doesn't take, you know, it shouldn't take a hundred thousand dollars of investment before you before you You know break ground To deal with the city Because it's this it's this level of regulation and red tape That you know people say well, I'm going to go build somewhere else And that's you know, that's how that's how Burlington has gotten themselves in this problem in the first place And you know, certainly the university has a responsibility You know, if they are going to admit More and more and more students like they have been doing in a trend over the last 10 years They keep increasing the faculty, you know, the the student body You know each year there's more and more and more and Although they have made some investments and put up some properties that are you know Recently like the one down on uh, St. Paul street and so forth Uh, they've done some but there's really a lot more work to be done there and uh, and really the city needs to get out of the way and let Let uh Entrepreneurial people go out and help solve these problems because government rarely solves any of our problems They create a lot of problems for us. So, um, you know By crushing the entrepreneurial spirit of people that are doing air b&b, you know And and the perception perhaps that lingers out there Among people that somehow people that do air b&b are these wealthy folks that you know have You know a lot of property and they're just like, you know screw the little guy We're going to you know, just you know, rent to our select people who come here as tourists And we're not going to be part of the community and that is So far from the truth, you know, and many many people who do engage in the air b&b business like when I was doing it um I was doing it in uh to help supplement my income so I could stay in my apartment You know, uh, it was you know, um, we had alternative alternative places to stay sometimes we'd stay in other People that we knew air b&b units that were vacant in that particular time And we would do that for each other and help each other out A community of people and we're just business business Entrepreneurs making our way through and figuring it out. Um, and you know, there's It is not an easy business to be in it. So there's a lot that is true That is true chris So hold on guys, we're we're talking over each other a little bit here chris. Why don't you Uh, we're we're getting towards the end here. Um, why don't you get the last word? I would just say, you know, it would be curious to get some more data on this Not just on the economic impact of short term rentals but it would also be curious to know The amount of housing that has become de facto student housing off campus in the areas of bwell bradley street south in the green lumus Isham street And you know, figure that out and it would also be curious to know What number of units have been set aside through the various nonprofit programs as designated as as affordable as well That is Excellent excellent point and let's not forget every time they convert Anything to uvm That becomes nonprofit That's the point and they don't pay taxes and they pay a pilot agreement, you know payments in lieu of taxes and When how long of an agreements in place or when it's up for renewal, but certainly uh, oh, it's the mayor The mayor just uh was negotiating with them. I think a year or two ago And they only pay a couple hundred thousand dollars a year of uvm On uh over a billion dollars worth of assets