 Hello, everyone. Welcome to theCUBE's special presentation of International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE. This is a global special open program we're doing every year. We're going to continue at every quarter and do more and more content, getting the voices out there and celebrating the diversity. And I'm excited to have an amazing guest here, Ludavia Drain, who's the head of global inclusion, diversity and equity at AWS. Ludavia, we tried to get you in on AWS re-invent and you were super busy, so much going on. The industry has seen the light, they're seeing everything going on and the numbers are up, but still not there. And getting better, this is your passion, our passion, a shared passion. Tell us about your situation, your career, how you got into it. What's your story? Yeah, well, John, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm glad that we finally got this opportunity to speak. How did I get into this work? Wow, you know, I'm doing the work that I'd love to do, number one. It's always been my passion to be a voice for the voiceless, to create a seat at the table for folks that may not be welcome to certain tables. And so it's been something that's been kind of the theme of my entire professional career. I started off as a lawyer, went to Capitol Hill, was able to do some work with members of Congress, both women members of Congress, but also minority members of Congress in the US Congress. And then that just morphed into what I think has become a career for me in inclusion, diversity, and equity. I decided to join Amazon because I could tell that it's a company that was ready to take it to the next level in this space. And sure enough, that's been my experience here. So now I'm in it. I'm in it with two feet, doing great work. And yeah, yeah, it's almost a full circle moment for me. It's really an interesting background. You have a background in public policy. You mentioned Capitol Hill, that's awesome. DC kind of moves slow, but it's a complicated machinery there. Obviously, as you know, navigating that. Amazon grew significantly. We've been at every reinvent with theCUBE since 2013, like just one year. I watched Amazon grow and they've become very fast and also complicated, like, I won't say like Capitol Hill, because that's very slow. But Amazon's complicated. AWS is in the realm of powering a generation of public policy. We had the Jedi contract, controversy, all kinds of new emerging challenges. This pivot to tech was great timing, because one, Amazon needed it because they were growing so fast in a male dominated world, but also their business is having real impact on the public. That's right, that's right. And when you say the public, I'll just call it out. I think that there's a full spectrum of diversity and we work backwards from our customers and our customers are diverse. And so I really do believe, I agree that I came to the right place at the right time. And yeah, we move fast. And we're also moving fast in this space of making sure that both internally and externally, we're doing the things that we need to do in order to reach a diverse population. You know, I've noticed how Amazon's changed from the culture, male dominated culture, let's face it, it was. And now I've seen over the past five years, specifically go back fives kind of in my mental model, just the growth of female leaders, it's been impressive. And that was some controversy. They were criticized publicly for this. And we said a few things as well in those like on 2014. How is Amazon ensuring and continuing to get the female employees field represented and empowered? What's going on there? What programs do you have? Because it's not just doing it, it's continuing it, right? And it's cause there is a lot more to do. I mean, the products are digital now for everybody. It's not just one population. Everyone uses digital products. What is Amazon doing now to keep it going? Well, I'll tell you, John, it's important for me to note that while we've made great progress, there's still more that can be done. I am very happy to be able to report that we have big women leaders. We have leaders running huge part of our business, which includes storage, customer experience, industries and business development. And yes, we have all types of programs. And I should say that when I instead of calling it programs, I'm going to call it strategic initiatives, right? We are very thoughtful about how we engage our women and not only how we hire, attract women, but how we retain our women. We do that through engagement. Groups like our affinity group. So women at Amazon is an affinity group, women in finance, women in engineering. Just recently, I helped our black employee network women's group launch Ben women. And so you have these communities of women who come together, support and mentor one another. We have what we call Amazon circles. And so these are safe spaces where women can come together and can have conversations where we're able to connect mentors and sponsors. And we're seeing that it's making all the difference in the world for our women. And we see that through what we call connections. We have an inclusion sentiment tracker. So we're able to ask questions every single day and we get a response from our employees. And we can see how are our women feeling? How are they feeling included at work? Are they feeling as though they can be who they are authentically at Amazon? And so again, there's more work that needs to be done. But I will say that as I look at the data, as I'm talking to engaging women, I really do believe that we're on the right path. Well, David, talk about the urgent needs of the women that you're hearing from the circles. That's a great program, the affinity circles. The groups are great. Now you have the groups. What are you hearing? What are the needs of the women? So, John, I'll just go a little bit into what's becoming a conversation around equity. So initially, I think we talked a lot about equality. We wanted everyone to have fair access to the same things. But now women are looking for equity. We're talking about not just leveling the playing field, which is equality, but don't give me the same as you give everyone else. Instead, recognize that I may have different circumstances. I may have different needs. And give me what I need, right? Give me what I need, not just the same as everyone else. And so I love seeing women evolve in this way and being very specific about what they need more than, or what's different than what a man may have in the same situation, because their circumstances are not always the same, and we should treat them as such. Yeah, I think that's a great equity point. I interviewed a woman here, ex-Amazonian. She's now a GSI, Global System Integrator. She's a single mom. She said remote work brought her equity because people on her team realized that she was a single mom. And it wasn't the, how do you balance life? It was her reality. And what happened was she had more empathy with the team because of the new work environment. So I think this is an important point to call out that equity, because that really makes things smoother in terms of the interactions, not the assumptions. You have to be, you know, always the same as a man. So how does that go? What's the current, how would you characterize the progress in that area right now? I believe that employers are just getting better at this. It's just like you said, with the hybrid being the norm now, you have an employer who is looking at people differently based on what they need. And it's not a problem. It's not an issue that a single mother says, well, I need to be able to leave by five p.m. I think that employers now and Amazon is right there along with other employers are starting just to evolve that muscle of meeting the needs and not people don't have to feel different. You don't have to feel as though there's some kind of special circumstance for me. Instead, it's something that we as employers we're asking for. And we wanna meet those needs that are different in some situations. I know you guys do a lot of support outside of AWS. And I had a story I recorded for the program as woman. She talked about how she was a nerd from day one. She's a tomboy, they called her a tomboy, but she always loved robotics and she ended up getting dual engineering degrees. And she talked about how she didn't run away and she was many ways, many signals to her not to go. And she powered through at that time and during that her generation, that was a tough and she was successful. How are you guys taking the education to STEM, to women at young ages? Because we don't wanna turn people away from tech if they have the natural affinity towards it. And not everyone's gonna be as, you know, strong if you will. She was a bulldog, she was great. She's just like, I'm going for it. I love it so much. But not everyone's like that. So this is an educational thing. How do you expose technology, STEM for instance, and making it more accessible, no stigma, all that stuff. I mean, I think we've gone a long way, but still. What I love about women is we don't just focus on ourselves. We do a very good job of thinking about the generation that's coming after us. And so I think you will see that very clearly with our women Amazonians. I'll talk about three different examples of ways that Amazonian women in particular and there are men that are helping out, but I'll talk about the women in particular that are leading in this area. On my team, in the inclusion diversity and equity team, we have a program that we run in Ghana where we meet basic STEM needs for a after-school program. So we've taken this small program and we've turned their summer camp into this immersion where girls and boys, we do focus on the girls can come and be completely immersed in STEM. And when we provide the technology that they need so that they'll be able to have access to this whole new world of STEM. Another program, which is run out of our AWS in communities team called AWS Girls Tech Day all across the world where we have data centers. We're running these Girls Tech Day where they're basically designed to educate, empower, and inspire girls to pursue a career in tech. Really, really exciting. I was at the Girls Tech Day here recently in Columbus, Ohio, and I got to tell you it was the highlight of my year. And then I'll talk a little bit about one more. It's called AWS Get IT and it's been around for a while. So this is a program again, it's a global program. It's actually across 13 countries and it allows girls to explore cloud technology in particular and to use it to solve real world problems. So we have, those are just three examples. There are many more. There are actually women Amazonians that create these opportunities off the side of their desk and their local communities. We, in inclusion, diversity, and equity, we fund programs so that women can do this work, this STEM work in their own local communities. But those are just three examples of some of the things that our Amazonians are doing to bring girls along, to make sure that the next generation is set up and that the next generation knows that STEM is accessible for girls. I'm a huge believer. I think that's amazing. That's a great inspiration. We need more of that. It's awesome. I mean, why wouldn't we spread it around? I want to get to the equity piece. That's the theme for this year's IWD. But before that, getting to that segment, I want to ask you about your title and the choice of words and in the sequence, okay? Global, inclusion, diversity, equity, not diversity only. Inclusion is first. We've had this debate on theCUBE many years now, a few years back, it started with inclusion is before diversity. No, diversity before inclusion, equity. And so there's always been a debate around the choice of words and their order. What's your opinion? What's your reaction to that? Is it by design and does inclusion come before diversity or am I just reading it to it? Inclusion doesn't necessarily come before diversity. It doesn't necessarily come before equity. Equity isn't last, but we do lead with inclusion in AWS. And that is very important to us, right? And thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk a little bit about it. We lead with inclusion because we want to make sure that every single one of our builders know that they have a place in this work. And so it's important that we don't only focus on hiring, right? Diversity, even though there are many, many different levels and spectrums to diversity. Inclusion, if you start there, I believe that it's what it takes to make sure that you have a workplace where everyone knows you're included here, you belong here, we want you to stay here. And so it helps as we go after diversity and we want all types of people to be a part of our workforce, but we want you to stay. And inclusion is the thing. It's the thing that I believe, make sure that people stay because they feel included. So we lead with inclusion, doesn't mean that we put diversity or equity, second or third, but we are proud to lead with inclusion. Great description, that was fabulous. Totally agree, double click, thumbs up. Now let's get into the theme, embracing equity, because this is a term, it's been quotes. What does that mean to you? You mentioned it earlier, I love it. What does embrace equity mean? Yeah, you know, I do believe that when people think about equity, especially non-women think about equity, it's kind of scary. Am I gonna give away what I have right now to make space for someone else? But that's not what equity means. And so I think that it's first important that we just educate ourselves about what equity really is. It doesn't mean that someone's gonna take your spot, right? It doesn't mean that the pie, let's use that analogy, get smaller. The pie gets bigger, right? And everyone is able to have their piece of the pie. And so I do believe that, I love that IWD International Women's Day is leading with embracing equity because we're going to the heart of the matter when we go to equity. We're going to the place where most people feel most challenged in challenging people to think about equity and what it means and how they can contribute to equity and thus embrace equity. Yeah, I love it. And the advice that you have for tech professionals out there on this, how do you advise other groups? Cause you guys do a lot of great work. Other organizations are catching up. What would be your advice to folks who are working on this equity challenge to reach gender equity and other equitable strategic initiatives? Everyone's working on this. Sustainability and equity are two big projects we're seeing in every single company right now. I will say that I believe that AWS has proven that equity and going after equity does work, embracing equity does work. One example I would point to is our AWS Impact Accelerator Program. I mean, we provide $30 million for early stage startups led by women, black founders, Latino founders, LGBTQ plus founders to help them scale their business. That's equity. That's giving them what they need. Is they need access to capital. And so what I'd say to companies who are looking at going into the space of equity and I would say, embrace it. Embrace it. Look at examples of what companies like AWS is doing around it and embrace it because I do believe that the tech industry will be better when we're comfortable with embracing equity and creating strategic initiatives so that we could expand equity and make it something that's just normal. It's the normal course of business. It's what we do. It's what we expect of ourselves and our employees. But Dave, you're amazing. Thank you for spending the time. My final couple of questions really more around you. Capitol Hill, DC, Amazon, global head of inclusion, diversity and equity. As you look at making change, being a change agent, being a leader is really kind of similar, right? You got DC, it's hard to make change here, but if you do it, it works, right? If you don't, you're on the side road, side of the road. So as you're in your job now, what are you most excited about? What's on your agenda? What's your focus? Yeah, so I'm most excited about the potential of what we can get done, not just for builders that are currently in our seats, but for builders in the future. I tend to focus on that little girl. I don't know her. I don't know where she lives. I don't know how old she is now, but she's somewhere in the world and I want her to grow up. And for there to be no question that she has access to AWS, that she can be an employee at AWS. And so that's where I tend to center. I center on the future. I try to build now for what's to come to make sure that this place is accessible for that little girl. You know, I've always been saying for a long time, the software is eating the world. Now you got digital transformation, business transformation. And that's not a mail-only or certain category. It's everybody. And so software that's being built and the systems that are being built have to have first principles. Andy Jassy is very strong on this. He's been publicly saying when trying to get pinned down about certain books in the bookstore that might offend another group. And he's like, look, we have first principles. First principles is a big part of leading. What's your reaction to that? How would you talk to another professional and say, hey, you know this, how do I make the right call? Am I doing the wrong thing here? I might say the wrong thing here. And is it first principles based? What's the guardrails? How do you keep that in check? How would you advise someone as they go forward and lean in to drive some of the change that we're talking about today? Yeah, I think as leaders, we have to trust ourselves. And Andy actually is a great example. When I came in as head of ID&E for AWS, he was our CEO here at AWS. And I saw how he authentically spoke from his heart about these issues. And it just aligned with who he is personally, his own personal principles. And I do believe that leaders should be free to do just that, not to be scripted, but to lead with their principles. And so I think Andy's actually a great example. I believe that I am the professional in this space at this company that I am today because of the example that Andy said. You guys do a great job. What's next for you? World tour, are you traveling around? What's on your plate these days? Share a little bit about what you're currently working on. Yeah, so in Amazon, we're always diving deep. We're always diving deep. We're looking for root calls, working very hard to look around corners and try to build now for what's to come in the future. And so I'll continue to do that. Of course, we're always planning and working towards reinvent. So hopefully, John, I'll see you at reinvent this December, but we have some great things happening throughout the year. And we'll continue to, I think it's really important, as opposed to looking to do new things, to just continue to flex the same muscles and to show that we can be very, very focused and intentional about doing the same things over and over each year to just become better and better at this work in this space and to show our employees that we're committed for the long haul. So of course, there'll be new things on the horizon, but what I can say, especially to Amazonians, and we're gonna continue to stay focused and continue to get at this issue and doing this issue of inclusion, diversity, and equity and continue to do the things that work and make sure that our culture evolves at the same time. Well, David, thank you so much. I'll give you the final word. Just share some of the big projects you guys are working on so people can know about them, that your strategic initiatives, take a minute to plug some of the major projects and things that are going on that people either know about or should know about or need to know about. Take a minute to share some of the big things you guys got going on or most of the things. So one big thing that I would like to focus on, focus my time on is what we call our Innovation Fund. This is actually how we scale our work and we meet the community's needs by providing micro grants to our employees. So our employees can go out into the world and sponsor all types of different activities, create activities in their local communities or throughout the regions. And so that's probably one thing, one thing that I would like to focus on just because number one is our employees is how we scale this work and is how we meet our community's needs in a very global way. And so thank you, John, for the opportunity to talk a bit about what we're up to here at Amazon Web Services. But it's just important to me that I end with our employees because for me, that's what's most important and they're doing some awesome work through our Innovation Fund. Inclusion makes the workplace great. Empowerment with that kind of program is amazing. But David, Drain, thank you so much. Head of Global Inclusion and Diversity and Equity at AWS. This is International Women's Day. I'm John Furrier with theCUBE. Thanks for watching and stay with us for more great interviews and people and what they're working on. Thanks for watching.